 Good morning and a warm welcome to the 30th meeting of the Constitution, Europe, Exxon, Affairs and Culture Committee in 2023. We have received apologies from Kate Forbes, who is substituted about our Dineckle this morning, warm welcome, and we have received apologies from deputy convener Donald Cameron MSP, and I know our thoughts will be with Donald this week, but we are substituted by Pam Gozel, so welcome Pam, and as this is your first time attending committee, I can invite you to make a declaration of interest. Thank you, convener, and good morning everybody. I'd just like to say that I am the chair of the cross-party group on India, and we have just recently come back from a cross-party delegation visit from India in October, so I just wanted to put that on record. Thank you very much. Our agenda item this morning is to continue to take evidence of the committee's inquiry on the Scottish Government's national outcomes and indicators relating to international policy. We are joined remotely this morning by Noe Corran-Naho, associate professor of international law and international relations at the University of the Basque country. Good morning, and Professor Stefan Paquin, national school of public administration in the University of Quebec. Thank you both for joining us this morning, but I have to say a special thank you to our colleague from Quebec, which I understand is a very early start for you this morning. I wonder if I could just open with a general question about how civil society plays a part in the para-diplomacy that happens in both your countries. I wonder if I could perhaps bring in Noe Corran-Naho first. Thank you very much. First of all, thank you very much for this invitation. It's an honour. It's a pleasure. With regard to your question, I will say that the Basque case for a long time has both levels, the importance, the input of civil society and the governmental input since the early years of the Basque autonomy during the civil war in Spain in the 1950s when the first statute of autonomy was approved. At that time already civil society was behind and together with Basque government abroad. Today, I will say that the situation is different and perhaps most or less politicized expressions of civil society, let's say for instance in years working in the blood manate or for instance, of course, the private sector, but compared for instance with Catalonia, I will say that the situation is very different. In Catalonia in the last 20 years civil society has worked closely, very closely and I will say even under a little bit that the orientations and even it sometimes has been contentious, know this relationship, but it's clear that Catalan international outreach and Catalonia international outreach in the last 20 years has been with together with civil society widely understood. In the case of the Basque government, I will say that perhaps it's more distinctive of Basque para diplomacy and international outreach from the point of view of the government, I mean an emphasis in the institutional dimension of Spain, an autonomous community with important exclusive powers and institutional profile. Thank you. Thank you. Professor Pacon. So in the case of Quebec, as you know Quebec has a political system similar to the one that you have in Scotland, it's the Westminster style of government. So in Quebec there is a ministry of international relation and La Francafini was in charge of all the international policy of Quebec. This ministry is in charge of outreaching to the different ministry of the government, but also to civil society. So in order to do that, the governor of Quebec for example in academia has created research chair on different topics and they can ask questions and organize conference with with researcher and students, but they also have created many institution with NGOs and also of course with the business sector, not just in Quebec City or in Montreal, but all over the province of Quebec. So there is a clear effort to have a domestic outreach to help people and even municipal government to internationalize their activity. So this is it. My short answer is that yes, there is a lot of links between the government and a different organization of the civil society to promote international relation and internationalization of activities. Thank you very much. I'm going to move to questions from my colleagues and I could invite Mr Stewart. Thank you. Good morning gentlemen. If I can ask you both about how your effectiveness of the external engagement takes place between the governments. You've talked about how in Canada you have the Westminster type of environment, so you have to cooperate and you have to work together in pursuing your international engagement policies as individuals within your communities, but how do you manage to have that effectiveness between both sides? What are you trying to achieve in your area in Quebec or in Basque and what the national government are managing to work with you? Is there tension? Is there difficulties in trying to achieve what you want to try and get from one another and do you believe that it is working well for both of you or it is not working? Thank you. Okay, so you are asking the very, very important question. So Quebec has been doing international relation for let's say to simplify more than since the 1960s. At the beginning of this phenomenon there was a lot of tension with the Canadian government and these tensions were super important during or close to the referendum of 1995 on Quebec independence, but also in 1980. For one obvious reason, if Quebec wanted to become a southern country, it needs international support and for that for example it seeks the help of the French government and that created a lot of tension with the federal government of Canada. But this is only something that lasted until maybe a good 20 years ago. Nowadays the support for independence has decreased, it's about 35% now in Quebec and even though the political party who is in power in Quebec is qualified himself as being nationalist, it is opposed to independence. So what that means is that there's much less friction with Canada in terms of the international relation of Quebec. So this is the first big picture. Then there is a second reason. Quebec is not alone in Canadian provinces to do international relation. The province of British Columbia for example has 23 international offices, Alberta has 15, Ontario has 12, Ontario used to have 35, now Quebec has 35. So Quebec is not alone being having international activities. So if the federal government is pretty harsh on Quebec and not on the other provinces that might create some kind of problem. And finally is that when you look at international negotiation, for example trade negotiation, the Canadian government needs the cooperation of the provinces in those negotiations because the provinces will be the one implementing this agreement at some point. And in Canada they can refuse to do it if it's in their field of jurisdiction. So since the 1960s, Canada and the provinces has signed multiple intergovernmental agreements in order to increase the participation of the provinces in international negotiation. So this is the case for trade, it's the case for human rights, it's the case for healthcare, it's the case for education, but it's not the case for climate change for example or climate negotiations. So on some of these issues there is some tension, this is typically normal in the federal regime, but overall it's much better than what it was what it was a good 25, 30 years ago. The BASC, I mean is there still some tensions within the BASC situation that maybe Canada has moved on for? It would be quite useful to get a view from the gentleman there, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I would say that in the case of Quebec as my colleague has underlined there is a long tradition of this. For instance I used to say that in Canada the confidence of governors is centenary. In the case of the Spanish autonomous community system the confidence of governors has less, I would say, approximately 10 years, 15 years depending because not even every day has been really helped. So from this point of view is clearly a very different context. Spain is an unitary country, an unitary state, it's true that this allows for a significant level of decentralisation in many important aspects, in some aspects the BASC government has strong powers for instance fiscal powers and from this point of view of course when you have exclusive powers in matters which are of real interest some contentious dimension always is there. On the other hand another peculiarity of the Spanish constitutional system which is important as well is that we don't have as a proper second chamber or territorial senate. The Spanish senate is composed by representatives of the provinces not the autonomous communities and the autonomous communities have the the the possibility to appoint a number of three depending autonomous community a variable number of but it's a small representation so it's not really a tailor to measure the needs of a highly regionalised decentralized state. And all the elements which is extremely important as well is that one of the features of the Spanish political system is that our systems for intergovernmental coordination and collaboration are extremely weak both in horizontal terms perhaps not at the local level but autonomous communities very rarely are able to coordinate themselves seriously and of course vertically. Attempt has been registered across time but it never works because another peculiarity is that for instance the most I will say critical actors the past country in Catalonia in the round status of autonomy they have recognised the possibility to have a bilateral channel of communication with the central government so even with the central government convokes governors to negotiations the past and Catalan's tend to say no we prefer our bilateral channel which is formally established in our in our status of autonomy. And finally another element that makes probably this is the most the one that has more uh is planetary power is party politics a party system in Spain where we can party system is very precourial as well because in contrast for instance with the British system uh in terms of the composition of of of the both chambers and regional governments as well both national what states sorry parties and regional parties compete with each other. So from time to time they as soon as they realise a mutual need for support for securing stability in office or to secure a parliamentary support they completely change. Also for instance if the socialist party has absolute majority we'll be very reluctant to collaborate with Catalan's or with us. If they need the bus in Catalan they will be willing as we are witnessing today but it's the same with our Catalan and Basque political parties when they don't need the support in the Catalan chamber or the Basque chamber it happens the same. So I will say that perhaps more than formal system of distribution of powers are more than formal mechanism of inter-homental cooperation. In the Spanish case is party politics political opportunity which saves changes sometimes elements of progress and sometimes elements of regression. Thank you. Andrew if I could ask a supplementary on the lines of Mr Stewart's questioning. The committee did visit Brussels and met with the Canadian mission in Brussels so we find ourselves in quite a new situation outside of the European Union. So I was wondering how Quebec integrates with the Canadian mission as a third party in Brussels at the moment and also how the Basque party diplomacy happens in Brussels as an area that is still within the European Union. So if I could have Professor Pack on first please. So you are asking about Quebec presents in Brussels. So Quebec has been present in Brussels since the early 1970s as an autonomous representation. So Quebec has half outside the Canadian Embassy or outside the different institution that Canada has with the European Union. It's not always the case if you look in some countries Quebec representation will be within the Canadian Embassy or for immigration purposes. Typically Quebec agents are within the Canadian Embassy but it's not always the case. It's on a case by case basis. So my understanding that in Brussels the links are formal and also informal. So for example informally if the Canadian Embassy hosts a reception at this house well Quebec representative could be invited or not. It happens a lot that they are invited and this really depends on who's in charge at the Canadian Embassy and the Quebec delegation. If these people get along well they will be invited. And it's also the case of the personnel working for the Quebec representation and the Canadian Embassy. So the Quebec team is probably around 15% 20% working there full time and probably more than half of them are local hired persons. So they are from Belgium and they stay there for a very long time. So they typically build a good relation working relation with the Canadian Embassy and other sub-state government organization. So this is the informal part. The formal part is they really tend on specific events to coordinate in order to make sure that everything is fine, that they work properly together. One of the very big achievements of the Quebec representation in Brussels is the relaunching of the free trade negotiation between Canada and the European Union. If we go back a good 15, 20 years Canada and the UK did not succeed in the first round of a negotiation in early 2000 and it was the Quebec delegate in Brussels who relaunched a negotiation by convincing the Prime Minister of Quebec that it was in the interest of Quebec to have a free trade agreement with European Union and after that the Prime Minister of Quebec convinced the Premier of Ontario so together they are 70% of Quebec Canada's economy and then they made a joint visit to the UK to see if there was some interest in the UK and with the help of the Canadian Embassy of course. And then they convinced the Canadian government and the French government at the time was leading the European Union to start negotiating and this is a very big success for Quebec diplomacy and this is all because Quebec in Brussels but also the Canadian government works typically well together. It's not a conflictual posting in Brussels for Quebec. It's not like Paris for example. Thank you. Professor Cornelio. Thank you. With regard to the Basque country I will say that for the Basque government and for the Basque nationalities of course to be present, to be active in the European Union process has been a landmark for them always. We are a very important thing to really perform very well. So when they even participate in the early conversations for the creation of the European communities in the conference of the arts in the 40s and the early 50s they were there in even within exile. In 1988 they opened the first delegation of the Basque government in Brussels and it's very important to underline that it was the showcase among Spanish autonomous communities that decide to open this delegation with the status of an official representation, a public entity official representation. The Basque government at that time was with Philippe Gonzales, the socialist. They immediately complained about this and they filed, as you know, they go to the court, to the constitutional court and the constitutional court unexpectedly decide in favor of the officiality of this Basque delegation in Brussels because they understood the magistrates that is an expression of the European Union which is a contest, the European communities at that time was a contesting which is basically a sort of expanded field of domestic politics. So it was funny because after this the Basque government would consider this a real success. Whatever other delegations abroad that has opened the Basque country across the last decades has also these official status, not only those within the European Union but also those for instance in the Americas. So for them has been influential for an instrumental for shaping an institutional profile abroad, official profile. Beyond this I will say that the Basque delegation in Brussels has done a really good work across time. They have a profile really technical looking for partnerships to understand the interincasis of the European integration process but they have been quite distant of polymase controversies. From this point of view has been a learning process across time with a sort of prudencia learning and the situation also is very different compared with the Catalan case in which they have of course a serious and functional delegation there by the Catalan process politicised very much their business and this complicates the event the most bureaucratic task for a long time. Thank you. Good morning to our panel members, it's nice that you've been able to join us. I'm interested in just exploring a little bit about the importance of domestic policy in for example Scotland and how important that is for substates like yourselves when it comes to scoping perhaps investment opportunities for businesses. So as an example just to kind of set that out I am an MSP in the north east of Scotland which has an opportunity to shift from oil and gas production to renewables production but I'm aware that there can be some challenges in and around for example planning and consenting policy within Scotland and the impact that that might have with particular reference to timescales the impact that that may have in terms of the attractiveness of Scotland for international partners to come and invest here. So that's just one example but I'm interested more broadly in how domestic policy is scoped or considered when our colleagues globally and in Europe may be looking to develop in Scotland. So I'll maybe come to Professor Canigo first and then Professor Paquin. Thank you. Thank you very much for your question. I will say that in the case of the Basque country the Basque government of course have tried to leave the building of a network of interest for trade and investment. I will say that it works pretty well but this mostly focus on small and medium enterprises and from this point of view the Basque economy which is a worthy economy and after end economy a modern and innovative but this really not so big no it's a sort of small regional economy a small medium economy. The most important thing I will say is that perhaps despite this efforts what happens is that the most really influential economic alliance in Basque economy are I will say I will say beyond the reach of the Basque government policies. For instance in the Basque country we have of course Iberdrola which is a big corporate group. We have Ressol. We have the Mondragon corporation which is a big group as well. So perhaps what happens is that this perhaps too much focus by need in the small and medium enterprises but it is more difficult for the Basque government to really enter in direct dialogue with big investments with big films which perhaps for Catalonia is different for Madrid as well because it's another size of economy and this may explain a sort of differential disadvantage I will say. Thank you. Can you bring in Professor Paquin? Thank you. Yeah this is a very good question and in the case of Quebec so Quebec is a small francophone nation in North America. You know most of our trade and investment are with the United States and as far as the United States are concerned we can be living somewhere in Japan you know they don't have any idea of who we are and when we when they do know who we are sometimes it's biased or you know the information that's that's pretty good. So this is why in the 1960s and 70s it became clear that Quebec should or should increase its international presence in the United States and around the world in order to promote Quebec distinctiveness but also to explain the basic facts or who we are and what kind of economy we are because between English, Canadian and Americans it's kind of the same culture they understand each other easily and since the federal government is governed by the majority of English, Canadian sometimes they don't do the necessary effort to explain the Quebec difference that for example in Quebec one of the very contentious issues is the linguistic legislation that promote French and for example if an American business opens in Montreal after a certain period of time they will have to operate in France in French. So this is the kind of thing that we need to explain to to people outside Quebec and so this is why there is a lot of public diplomacy in Quebec targeted towards the United States and really all over the world to explain the Quebec difference. There's another major difference Quebec sees itself as a social democratic place in North America so this is not the kind of thing that Americans understand easily and we have state-owned enterprise that are so very big in the energy sector we export a lot of the energy in the United States this is also something that needs to be explained to Americans. So it's really key to to to explain these kinds of things and we have to do it the government of Quebec feels it has to do it itself. On that very question also as I mentioned earlier you know there was a referendum on independence and it was conflictual at a time with the federal government so what the government of Quebec also did is that it separated trade and investment mission with international relations so basically we have a ministry of international relations that does international relations stuff but does not do trade and international investment. We have a state-owned enterprise called Investism in Quebec who is in charge of attracting foreign direct investment but also promoting trade and we also have the Kaiser Depot who works like a pension funds if you want to invest Quebec pension funds all over the world and these actors are becoming are becoming have become very important for example the Kaiser Depot is the first most important Canadian investor in Canada but also outside of Canada so it's important to to to explain the the original difference and Quebec is not alone at this for example Alberta as you as you know is is a energy very present in the oil and gas sector and the Tarsan has a very bad reputation not just in in Canada to be honest but also internationally so when when Canada when Alberta wants to promote the creation of a pipeline between Alberta and Texas it needs to do it himself because the federal government Canada is so divided on the issue that the Canadian government is not going to push the issue very much with the United States so Alberta needs to to do it for himself and that's why they've been doing it also for the past the good 20 years thanks community it was it was just on that point professor packing about the separation of international work and investment in trade and i do think when we're looking at outcomes there is a i think what we kind of hear about when we're trying to attract attract investment in trade in in Scotland for example the desire from business to have a single point of contact and you can have you know you've got different levels of government you've got different departments perhaps economic development departments international departments and you've also got the businesses themselves you may be looking to attract investment so i just wondered if you could explain a bit more how if you think that works well in practice to try and achieve that outcome of investment in trade and that kind of meeting that single point of contact to avoid duplication that sometimes can get in the way and frustrate that trade on investment yeah you're right this is a very important question and over time there has been multiple changes in Quebec and for example if you look at the structure of the Canadian government nowadays global affairs Canada has trade investment and international affairs in one ministry one big ministry one big department it was the case in Quebec 10 years ago that trade promotion and trade investment was within the ministry of international relation prior to that it was the economy ministry who was in charge of trade promotion and but there was also multiple tools on top of that for example uh the investus monkey deck was um simplifying but was created in the 1960s so i investus monkey deck as a four or five billion dollar budget in Canadian dollar every year uh it has it's much it's 10 times much bigger than the ministry of international relation of the bank so the way the law is written now the ministry of international relation is there to help uh investus monkey deck is also in the different international offices of Quebec there is also sometimes representative of investus monkey deck within you know the Quebec delegation but most of the time investus monkey deck has its own offices and it's pretty clear that if you want to do a trade fair somewhere or if you want to invest in Quebec you will be directly very quickly to investus monkey deck it's not the ministry of international relation who's going to do that but if you want to organize an international event somewhere in the in Chicago or you know in Mexico City it's clear that the Quebec representation over there will be helping investus monkey deck and all the Quebec partners to achieve their ends so i understand your point about you know one focal point for uh make things easier uh but the reason why uh there was a distinction in the case of Quebec is that the politics of Quebec especially when there is nationalism or referendum is becoming um um you know too sensitive so they they prefer to depoliticize trade and investment by creating a state-owned state-owned enterprise that is at at arms length from the government and can operate more freely and can distance himself from some of the harsher position of the government so this is the way it was created uh the the last reform was done just four years ago and there was a pandemic so i'm not you know we don't have evaluation of its if it's going super good or not uh but for the moment my feeling is that this recipe is working very well and i don't see major change in the future i think even if there's a change of government this structure will probably remain thanks very much for those comprehensive responses i wonder if i can just um ask a brief follow-up question coming back to my original question around domestic policy and it was really just to ask you both if you would agree that in terms of developing policy for example and i'll come back to my example of planning and consenting but also in the context of trade and investment would you agree that it's it's important that policy has an international trade compatibility or compliance element to it so i'll come back to professor Carnegie and then bring him professor Paquin thank you this is a very interesting question for you in the case of the bus country the bus country has historically in the 20th century a highly industrial economy and it suffers very much more in industrial reconversion and so on so this produces a new ace i will say you know when the bus country recovers autonomy which was trying to recover from this industrial decline and trying to foster a new modern innovative economy so from this point of view i will say that the bus government across time has always tried to to keep in mind this this this element you underline know the idea that if we need to promote a new economy and new investment so we'll be in in align with the new standards in terms of of what is business today in terms of in terms of decent work in terms of course of environmental dimensions in terms of not being affecting no critical infrastructures but as it happens a little bit also in the case of kebek this policies in the case of the bus country were in the case of trade and investment outside the scope of the i will say the cabinet of the presidency of the bus government no it was not there the president himself or herself in some time no the one in charge of controlling this directly but is in a separate ministry let's say no so this creates a peculiar situation no on the one hand the bus government has a clear understanding in the last 50 years that the trade and investment so we promote according to this standards international standards in which the bus country has always put a lot of emphasis no as a new economy adapt to the new standards no but the fact has been that the presidency of the bus government has been a little bit outside this no so it was outside this the the the planning for foreign international relations over the bus government and finally what happened is that perhaps the more properly political dimensions of the international relations of the bus country are becoming increasingly influenced by the trade and investment agenda there are some crises also in the bus parliament about the bus country external relations very perhaps too much focus on trade and investment in the trade sector and not perhaps in the more wider or the wider no political agenda so i will say this is a point of a point of contention for instance in terms of parliamentary control of the bus government action this is the kind of things that may draw in discussions in the commission of external affairs of the bus government in worse than the way in which the bus government presents itself across the world is perhaps too much attached too much attached or increasingly attached to this i will say trade and investment agenda no unless in other aspects even if of course it's important to recognize as well no that the bus government also has a not only this network no it's a 80 office all over the world no for trade and investment but also a very important network of global development eight no this is a quite important contribution of the bus and country and also a network with the diaspora the bus diaspora and also with the promotion of bus language and culture so it's not exclusively focusing on this but the pragmatic approach is displacing a little bit more political and social agenda thank you thank you i don't know i know we're just conscious of time and i don't know if you want to move on i think it's fine okay professor parkine do you want to add anything to that thank you yeah okay so on the topic of free trade um in the case of cobec to simplify there is a consensus between the political parties in cobec since the 1980s that cobec needs free trade even even the political parties on the left are favorable to free trade you know on the right it's obvious why you know they want to export and you think the free trade is the best way to grow the economy on the left the past quebecois who was favorable to cobec independence thought that it would be easier to become independent if we are part of free trade agreements especially with the united states so that that situation still holds for the most part but in recent years especially with the rise of protectionism in the united states and with the conflict with china there's starting to be tension the governor of cobec now has a economic nationalism agenda he wants to promote cobec businesses especially after the pandemic we realized that we were too dependent on international imports coming from from china so there is now a movement where the governor of cobec wants to to promote local enterprises and some of its international some of its action might be contrary to trade agreements that we now have this is a big tension uh is it going to be challenging the courts in the future i'm not sure but uh clearly there is some very important tension there but you know the the basic fact are simple cobec exports they equal the equivalent of 50 percent of its GDP and 76 percent of these exports goes to the united states so uh you know we need free trade agreement with the united states at least and of course uh with the quarter of hours thank you very much very interesting hearing some of the comments i spent a year in canada in university of prince Edward island and worked for quite a time in the committee the regions which is mentioned in our papers and i was really interested in in particular professor karnagos comments about progress and regress in terms of how this thing works in the uk well first of all we have a quote from president biden which says that the foreign policy of canada in peacetime is to be at war with kebek and it feels a bit like that in the uk just now in my view we have an increasingly insecure and paranoid uk government which is now saying that when anybody from scotland the scotland minister tries to be active internationally they have to first speak with a uk ambassador or ambassadorial staff also scotland was as other parts of the uk were completely cut out of the discussions on brexit and the trade discussions afterwards so it feels a bit like a curtain's coming down and i think professor canago you said that the progress and regress i think really depended on the political imperatives or often did so for example if the basque representatives could provide the balance in the spanish parliament that empowers them i just wondered if in either of your experience other than that other than sort of political force majeure if there's any other kind of pragmatic way to try and get a basis on which the governments might be better able to work together i would say on trading industries pretty much the same as kebek here we have scottish development international who are the most successful at getting foreign direct investment of any part of the uk apart from the southeast of england but generally outwith trade and investment how best do you think the two interests the uk government in what's obviously a very centralised unitary state unlike the confederation you have in canada how could they best do you think rub along to a more productive relationship outwith the political ins and outs of representation at uk parliament if that makes sense thank you that's an extremely interesting question i will say that in the case of spain an additional complication which is common with the case of uk is that it's a really asymmetrical system so the kind of solutions that for instance in austria work very well or in germany in terms of a sort of a standard of inferring for external in terms of a you have exclusive powers no and and and you are a german land that you have exclusive powers and you are discussing about some international dimension of this power you are entitled to be there and you are even able to battle for instance no an international treaty as is the case the active role no that stefan pacan has underline no about kebek or balonia no that even better for some time the the atlantic uh uh uh trade agreement so in an asymmetrical system is much more complex to do that uh from any point of view and also the spanish political system is asymmetrical also in terms of representation political representation in the spanish parliament so it's really elusive a sort of a general formula from this point of view i will say that this perhaps more productive uh to work throughout policy learning throughout prudential approaches not to what means the mutual adjustment and and not trying to either progress quickly or or regress no for others no input regressions to others in the context of the political bargain in which this this really makes almost impossible to really to save a vision of future no a vision of of transformation a small transformation of our political institutions and so on to transform to reform the spanish constitution is almost impossible at the short time for sure at least through constitutional means i will say so perhaps this really is a thief uh role no of the parliament that should be understood in that way in a constructive constructive i will say approach with long time ago some papers from both canadian and and british scholars about the importance to us a sort of diplomatic culture in intergovernmental relations within canada and uk and i think that in both cases despite of course the problems there is some background about this there is also already an experience for instance representatives of scotland in broses they have recognized fully uh diplomatic status as diplomatic against by the foreign office no this is something which is unthinkable in spain today but there's something that probably will serve to to integrate and to normalize a little bit this presence not only in broses but also in other countries as well so perhaps the spanish parties in the last yes has become no extremely contentious and most difficult so perhaps in this country in spain right now the catalans may have an element of progress but it will be a temporary progress because it's strongly dependent of this political bargaining contest as soon as another coalition will be neither no it will regress no to the previous situation so this is this i will say both politics i will say that we need a rather a bigger picture about what is at stake and from this point of view some developments in kevec who has his own experience of more audacious moves that were basically a fail are very learning very telling about what what could be the venue i will say no for the vast country for catalonia and i will say also for scotland of course so sorry i'm not sure if i really have answered to your question but your question really and the signal no goes to a very core thing or discussion today thank you professor park so thank you yeah thank you so understand what you mean by your comments and you know what you refer to in the case of the uk government is something that happened a lot in the past with the king government and the provinces but one major difference with the case of scotland is that in in the case of canada we have a highly decentralized federal regime you know kevec is in charge of all the education policy all the health care health care policy a lot of the policy in climate change but also culture but also economic development are local and if if it's recognized by most people that canada has the right to sign any treaty it wants even in the field of jurisdiction of the canadian provinces in canada the provinces are not forced or cannot be forced by the federal government to change their legislation and regulation to implement the agreement so this is where they have leverage you know so the governor of kevec for example every time there is an agreement that touch trade or where you can you need to change a regulation that is a ratified by atawa it needs to be approved by the national assembly of kevec so there needs to be a vote if we kevec consent to the to the agreement before the laws and regulation are changed so this is a it gives kevec leverage canadian provinces cannot be forced to implement international agreement so this is why with the passing of time the federal government realize that it needs to work with the provinces it's not perfect and there's no big agreement between the canadian government of the and the provinces but there are some sectorial agreements and but a lot of the agreements are ad hoc or they work on that case by case basis so this is why kevec has also a permanent delegation in atawa so they have a an office in atawa to lobby the federal government in order to protect the interests of the governor of kevec but also to share information you know to make sure that the canadian government understand some of the problem facing the governor of kevec on some specific international issues or or stuff like that and also the last point the canadian provinces created a council of the federation where where the premier meets on a regular basis and they very often they put international issue on the table there's no representative of the federal government present at these meetings but they express the point of view of the provinces on on some international issue most specifically trade climate change for example and they say where the province sits and this puts a lot of pressure on the federal government it's really hard to ignore the provinces after that in international negotiation. Professor Grinnell wants to come back in this around. It's very briefly it's a point of difference between canada and spain with regard to this particular discussion is that paradoxical even if many of the status of autonomy of the spanish autonomous communities introduce some provisions claiming right to be consored in matters and treaty making power within their own exclusive power or safe power this has never put in in work absolutely never even within the simultaneous negotiations of the refinement of the spanish constitutional system this was explicitly refuse no so in our political culture in our constitutional system in our political system opportunities for for for advancing in this particular aspect which is very important are so far close from this point of view the bellion solution no and formula beautiful formula beautiful formula of in foreign terminal for external for the bus government and for the all as the autonomous communities it will be a dream or it will be a solution that is at this point very difficult to to reach in spain thank you thank you very much for that and just to say that in scotland's unlike the canadian example that was given there are cases where you can governments obliged to consult with the scotland's parliament but it has become increasingly normalised on to ignore what is said and they're able to do that in fact they themselves the UK government described as a self denying ordinance now as to whether they'll take any notice of it or not one very quick specific thing though in relation to Quebec to what extent does the international activities of Quebec reflect and build upon any discretion they have in terms of immigration because understand you have the slightly decentralised immigration system and in scotland we are suffering depopulation so obviously it's a matter of interest as to what extent scotland would have freedom of action and we used to have that under something called the fresh talent initiative to what extent does Quebec make use of that to a discretion oh yeah it does a lot uh in in Canada um it's a shared jurisdiction by immigration uh so Quebec and Canada's i've also intergovernmental agreements on on on on how to select immigrants and so to simplify matters when we are talking about refugee uh uh reunification of family this is canadian federal but we when we talk about what we call in Quebec economy immigration those coming in Quebec to work and to live of course this is Quebec this is Quebec alone and so Quebec has multiple offices around the world to attract immigrants and they have a ministry of immigration and also different policy for integration and Quebec now attracts uh 65 000 economic immigrants a year and about 70 000 international students a year and it is a different category and about 100 000 person come here to work for example in the field at the farm in the summer and then go back to their original country like Mexico for example so they also have temporary immigration temporary working immigration and all of these cases the role of Quebec is key but for economic immigration Quebec is this the very important factor so when Quebec says uh this immigration is select this immigrant is selected and this is the certificate of selection of Quebec then the federal government will be able to start the the process of giving them the the permanent residency and then passport at some point but on these issues Quebec is a is a key issue and Quebec has a five representation uh around the world to attract immigrants and also there's a lot of international immigration fairs to try to attract immigrants and if you want if you want one other recent example there's a new law that was adopted in Quebec a few months ago that if someone from Scotland for example comes to Montreal and he studied at the University de Montréal in in French and he studied for a year then it's going to simplify his access to the Canadian nationality it's going to go faster because he studied in in Quebec for one year um it's called a program the experience can be called so these these programs seems to be working very well and on a per capita basis Quebec attracts three times more immigrants than than the United States and four times more than France on a per capita basis so this is actually a quite quite large number it's just to understand a bit more about where that where the migration comes from in terms of that net migration is there any obviously it will come from all over but is there any particular countries or regions yeah yeah yeah so in the in the case of Quebec the France is one of the key uh if it's not the first it's going to be the second one and then uh the French speaking countries of North Africa and uh Francophone Africa is going to be then second and third and then there will be countries like China, India uh that or Latin America that will send also a lot of students in the case uh of uh of for example India if they don't speak French when they arrive in Montreal it's a little bit longer to have the the the the the the possibility to immigrate in Quebec because there is a lot of points given to to an immigrant if he speaks French it's uh if it don't it's not it's not uh fatal but uh it's it's just a little bit longer so it's a system of point i'm not a specialist of immigration policy but this is the the basic idea that if you are if you have a good education if you are young uh you get more if you speak French you get more more points so typically it's a system like that and for the moment you know i i would say that typically the garrif Quebec attracts a lot of immigrants for the moment from what i'm seeing i think there is a the tide is turning uh people feel that there's the immigration policy of Canada are too generous there's too many immigrants but you know it's it's starting to change and we used to be super pro immigrants immigration now it seems to be changing but uh probably because of the political discourse in the United States but uh still it's Canada attracts uh Canada as all attracts half a million people a year uh for a population like Canada it's a lot i was quite interested to hear a little bit more about how uh the provinces work together uh in in Canada and what the kind of formal structures are for that and then uh for Professor Conaggo um you know how the Bas country and Catalonia work together uh within Spain i was quite struck by you know experience in Germany where i think they have more of a kind of formal structures bundesrat which allows the the lander to sort of come together and you know come to joint positions so you know notwithstanding what Professor Parcane said about perhaps policy differences over energy between some of the provinces um i'm interested in how that shared interest is is kind of codified and what the structures are for for joint working um can start with Professor Parcane then yeah so on the question about how the provinces work together you know there is the format for duration i referred to they do typically one big meeting a year on general general policy or general topics but they all you know the the specific minister will also meet on the regular basis for example the minister of education or minister of the economy minister of health care will meet on a regular basis to share data and experience but also to put pressure on the federal government typically to get more money you know something like that so the the federal government federation was created about 20 years ago and it there's no uh it's it's more like the premier getting together to put pressure on the Canadian government the federal government is not invited uh in these meetings there is also uh but it's less common nowadays there was also uh the the the federal government could ask the provinces to meet with with the federal government that's on some specific issues for example that happened a lot in the past but in the last 10 years much less so but you know during the pandemic the provinces and the federal government had to work together very well to to end of the the crisis and there is also some sub-state institution for example premier sub-coback ontario the maritimes but also some governors of the united states meet every year you know i've met every year since the 1970s to talk about trade energy investment and stuff like that and so this is a multilateral sub-diplomacy meeting that happens a lot uh there is a multiplicative meetings like that in North America that includes provinces and on top of that in in some cases for example Quebec and Ontario are share a border and together uh they are 70% of you know Canada's population so they they tend to to to work closely together on multiple issues so it's like bilateral relation or bilateral diplomacy between the two provinces so this is basically how it works can i just ask are there links between um provincial assemblies as well so not just governments uh parliamentarians and assembly members i haven't talked about that but it's true that the national assembly of Quebec or the the parliament of Quebec has an international relation with multiple parliament in the world us states canadian provinces us states uh the francophone in general but also the commonwealth countries uh so it's true that they they are uh you know one example when there was the usmca negotiation trade negotiation under trump uh the governor of Quebec convened some representative of legislative government in canada in united states in mexico to talk about the impact of the negotiation on their on their competencies and on their political power and so the governor of Quebec tends to the the the parliament of Quebec tends to do that uh you know not super optimally but when when the issue is important there is some there's a good chance that there will there will be something okay thank you Professor Conaca thank you for for the case of the spanish case on catalans and buskers i will say that the the spanish intergovernmental system is quite precarious as i mentioned before is is through the organization of the so-called horizontal uh all autonomous communities now with the the the spanish government as well sectorial conferences no and there are only one which has an international profile which is the the the sectorial conference for european affairs this was i will say not pretty good but not so bad no assist at least and um but i will say that both catalans and bus um bus government of course complain about the way it works no because it's clear that particularly in the case of the past country there are some exclusive powers that so will be worthy no are worthy of an bilateral treatment no and and this is also that this is no in the in the past statute of autonomy so even if the spanish government in some moment and other autonomous communities will be friendly with the idea of strengthening the system of intergovernmental cooperation for sure and i understand this as and i will be difficult to avoid bus government and catalan government will vindicate a bilateral relationship with the central government because it's a statutory um is uh is a such no assist recognized beyond this uh with regard to the collaboration between buskers and catalans an important initiative of course uh there are a number of them in which they have cooperated but across time the the the picture is quite paradoxical because in some moment in the early 80s for instance no in the 90s the bus country was also in the amytsno of political violence, terrorists and so on so this creates a contest in which all over the world the bus country was a that will make a mistake no and the catalan was the institutional path no to building no a new modern self-government and this evolves in quite contradictory terms no because in some moment they they were coincidental wasn't there and i will say in the late 90s in which in the early 2000s knowing which they both are quite the same position no the bus violence begins to be behind no uh and the catalans they were proud of course of the self-government but they were in the image of the reform of the statute of autonomy and so on so for for a while for a moment i will say they were quite coincidental coincidental sorry i'm promoting joint initiatives in the spanish congress and in spanish political cremate and negotiation but i will say that the the bus the sorry the catalan process has been a sort of element of distortion of the busc attempts no to follow the round path for instance in brussel for instance in terms of how the central government modified the law for inaction with the popular party no and with mariana rahoy they modified they create a new law for in external action no for the spanish state affecting all autonomous communities as well and introduce an important restrictions and for instance with the matter of migration within spain is exclusive power of the central government and at the beginning of the process just at the beginning of the catalan process the catalan government decides to create specific offices the regulations are brought for migration trying let's say to handle to manage a little bit what could be the good migration for catalonia no and this was immediately the Spanish government express opposition and finally in the court in the supreme court they declared this this offices with this specific focus on migration in constitutional unconstitutional so this these contentions affect a little bit the climate of mutual cooperation between the catalan government and the busc government and at this moment i will say that the expectations for a real improvement of these relations in my view are not very clear there is a long traditional this but this has been broken i would say yeah thank you yeah thanks for explaining that complexity and fluidity i think in terms of relations as well i want to just go back to Quebec actually and Professor and just ask you about you know the position of Quebec in relation to the arctic i mean you also have a footprint in the arctic um your arctic country also you know you cover subarctic areas as well how does how does Quebec engage with that increasingly difficult politics within the arctic circle particularly now given the the position of russia so i think i'd heard recently that Quebec has uh has been going to Nordic council meetings i think as an observer but i'm interested in how you engage with arctic council as well that's a very good question uh i've not paid attention to the last year or so so the relation with russia um i suppose that it's the the tension are super high but i've not read or i'm not informed about anything specific but you're right Quebec is a uh because the the Canadian government accept this situation Quebec is a observer in this negotiation and some of the times the prime minister even attend to their to their meetings and there is also a lot of consultation with the indigenous communities of Canada that are also present in this negotiation because for for Quebec and Canada this is a super important issue um you know with climate change we all know that there will be you know a road on top of Canada in the next future and so for Quebec this is uh one of the key elements of their international policy to to protect its interest in the northern part of the arctic um besides that i can send you the reference of the book that was written on the issue but i've i'm not i'm not informed or more aware of anything specific recently i remember that the previous government the the liberal government were really involved in arctic issue i think this one uh the cat government and especially because of the pandemic they did not you know i've i've not read anything recently about the arctic so um but i know that Quebec is an observer in this negotiation and just finally again staying with with Quebec um obviously you're part of Le Mans francophonie so does that does that bring particular advantages in terms of trade i think you've already mentioned about immigration um french speaking peoples from around the world may be attracted to counter kebec but are there are there kind of wider cultural and and trade advantages are there structures that are set up i suppose you know in some way similar to the uk com wealth which can help french speaking regions of nations around the world to to develop yeah that's a very good question so la francophonie is a as you know an international organization i think it's 54 member state plus observer uh so and now in the past 10 8 10 years it's trained to be more focused on trade and investment it was prior to that more invested in in education and culture um for example everybody lives in kebec has a a tv channel that is operated by something related to la francophonie so we have the french tv but also a tv from all of all over the world french speaking countries in kebec that is related to la francophonie we also have a lot of the university exchange in within francophone countries but in terms of trade this is the new idea the new agenda you know especially francophone countries of africa are are rising fast or i've been rising fast in the past 10 to 15 years and for for kebec it's a it's an opportunity it's a new market so kebec open and delegation uh a big office if you want in senegal but also a a smaller office in jibouti and also in morocco uh so you know the there is also a direct flight from Montreal to to moroccos in order to to promote business and one of the reason why it has become obvious it's because a big share now a big share of the integration in kebec comes from north africa or our our french speaking countries of africa so there is a big diaspora and you know diaspora and trade are things that goes together so there is some some major interests so the moment you don't see it and then the numbers of trade of kebec because most of our export goes to the united states and this is unlikely to change in the near future but uh you know it's a it's a market of of interest and it's a priority market for kebec to to go towards africa in the french countries thank you convener and good morning panel my question is around international reputation the committee has heard in previous evidence that scotland's international reputation relies on the past this was repeated in the recent house of common scottish affairs committee report promoting scotland internationally and that there is a heavy focus on tartan while this hook is of course very useful particularly for tourism we do need to do a lot more to shift that focus onto maybe things like our scientific research our business excellence have you experienced a similar need to move away from a more traditional reputation towards a more modern one and how have you achieved this yes of course even in countries that thinks that know us well sometimes the image they have of so to be clear for example France and kebec has a long history and good relation but the typical image that the the french people have of kebec is something of the past century so they all believe that we live somewhere in the remote area and we we live on the farm somewhere you know so this is uh you know the the typical image is not good so and in the united states it's it's it's also the same in the case of the united states it's not that they have a bad image of kebec is that they don't even know we exist you know uh i read a poll recently where 30% of american things canada is the us state you know so we are very far from from the truth so if they believe that canada is the us states they don't understand that kebec is a different province within canada where 85% of the population speak french and different culture and different different political system so yes there is a lot of teaching to do you know in order to promote its image kebec has put in place a public diplomacy service you know on social media there's also a lot of intervention in in in the political media in the united states when there is a crisis for example you know it's it's common that a minister will write a letter or something like that there is a lot of conference also the governor of kebec put in place in the united states an organic association called kebec studies in the united states they do a congress every two year and they finance the finance research chair and phd students and stuff like that to to promote research and knowledge of kebec in the united states there is also the equivalent in france there is a lot of kebec french relation and there are there's a lot of research project going on between the two societies and on the tourism front of course if you look at the typically there's three three sources of tourism in kebec Canadian from outside kebec americans and then french so kebec has been very active on these markets to attract tourism and but also attract tourism from from outside these you know for example in mexico um in in net in america but also in china also in japan to try to promote it with limited success but still uh it's it's not negligible so yeah the the image of kebec is something very sensitive in kebec every time there is a very negative news about kebec in the some American media for example there is typically a very strong reaction from people living in kebec and the government you know is aware of that and they they try to change that by by using public diplomacy thank you uh from from the point of view of the bus country i will say that the bus government at the beginning of the after the transition to democracy and so on and you initially are good reputation reputation the reputation of the bus because all over the world being hard working and also very good in the kitchen now for for for lunch and dinner to for cooking this kind of things but also as a strongly committed against the dictatorship from this point of view they they start with a particular peculiar reputation but i will say a pretty good reputation this changes a little bit during the 80s in which after transition to democracy terrorism is complicated very much you know the institutional outreach in terms of reputation of the bus institutions and the bus government so it has been i will say quite complicated at the earliest stages of the bus autonomy but in the last 20 years i will say that the bus branding i will say has improved very much is a small country however and the bus government by definition needs to concentrate in their own jurisdiction let's say now we are only three of the so-called historical bus country now with will be a scalaria which includes will include as well navara and three provinces and bus provinces in the front side so from this point of view there is a split between the way with the bus government so promote his branding abroad which is focused of course in the distinctiveness of bus language and culture but also in the institutional reality and constitutional reality of the bus country and the way in which bus nationalism understand that the global branding of the bus things will be other related with the historical bus countries from this point of view this is something which sometimes are civil civil society movements and other political parties collide with the with the the designs not that the bus government formulate with regard to this on the other hand as i will have concluding with regard to this i will say that the catalan case is also very telling about how reputation may evolve for instance in the case of scotland after the referendum i will say scotland never lost really global reputation or branding and after the brexit i will say that even recovers or increases his global branding as i will say country no worthy of attention and with a complex culture and so on in the case of catalonia i will say that the catalan process has been detrimental for the international reputation of catalonia not of course for those that are advocates of a catalan independence of independent nations without the state no where they are seeking and fighting for independence in other countries all over the world but for sure for other institutional interlocutors no for the privy sector for other governments all over the world so i will say that of course reputation is extremely important the presidenti varetsi with the was the one that tries to promote a constitutional change in spain no in terms of commutating i will say no the the the status of the bus country of our autonomous community into a sort of free associative state to spain no he was very focused in a new approach to global branding i will say for the bus country which was that the the production of the with the methodologies of the UNDP the united nations development program the calculations about what could be the human development in this for the bus country at that time this was quite an innovation no one did this at that time today is quite common not to offer for instance the the the information that in terms of human development scottish standards are above many other regions of course in in uk and in some aspects even above the the english standards of human development in this so there are many venues for global branding and reputation that has what i would like to underline is that they are at the end of the day strongly dependent of why the contest no of the of the of the political climate economic crisis and so on it's difficult to handle this in a if the contest is unstable thank you thank you convener thank you for your responses there i've got a question round you touched on it earlier on about the locations on international offices and i believe that the committee has heard suggestions in the past that there maybe should be a review of where the location of scotland's international offices should be and i also believe that currently there are no offices in spain italy or the netherlands so it's just to basically ask you the question that how often do you review the offices locations and also sizes because i'm just back from a trip from the cross party group in india and we do have a presence in india but we were asked to basically expand that presence because obviously the trade deal and other things happening lots more opportunities so it'd be good to hear from both of you to ask the question um how often are the offices reviewed the location and the sizes this time shall i go to um professor um conical first thank you in the case of the basical berman uh delegations are both divided in two types basically uh those that were specifically on trade and investment and they are at this moment there are 80 across the world in india in and this work specifically on this agenda and they work through the formula of private law but through the different forms of public private partnership so it is the basical berman is behind that is also in the hands of private actors a lot of the work and it was basically as i mentioned before is is perhaps particularly functional for small and medium enterprises and simultaneously in parallel has the the network of delegations abroad that compared with many other for instance with the case of kebek is quite modest in the sense of the basical berman are long time because of this this aspect i mentioned before you know that they want to have official delegations abroad that in the spanish constitutional system was a difficult thing to to achieve uh they have been quite careful you know in opening new delegations they have already modified the network in some moments but the still been a quite modest network uh not in terms of the way they work but in terms of they don't have ambition to multiply it i will say let's say nonsensical delegations abroad we have the lessons learned from kebek and stefan for sure we'll discuss this briefly after me that kebek in some moment opened plenty of focuses and they re-evaluate know the opportunity the the return of these offices and now they have a more pragmatic approach for sure stefan will correct me for sure in the case of the bus country i will say that they try to learn from these experiences and they are more prudent opening offices and those offices that are open some of them are even uh open for business not only in the country in which they are but also in other surrounding countries in the region for instance the delegation in santiago de chile has competences also for other countries for instance for colombia and so on so it's uh it's an important element of course and also they have a network of the so-called institute eche pari which is for delegations educational delegations for the promotion of bus culture and language thank you thank you perversa package you want to add anything to that yeah in the case of kebek you know the principle factor that explained why there is an increase in the number of representation it's economic growth but when there's a budget crunch when the economic situation is more difficult well you know many delegations are closed down for example in 1995 because of the very difficult economic situation the governor of kebek closed half of all of his representation abroad and then they studied to know if it was a good idea or not to close down and realized very quickly that it was a bad idea so three years after that they reopened them all and added some new ones since then there is a you know there's a tendency to add representation so now it's the numbers will be if they open their their new delegation in telediv 35 this is the uh all-time record so in in in terms of personal okay so the very big dedication general the one in paris in new yw'r city in Rome in in tokyo they are full-scale representation so they do politics economy education culture and typically they have personal about 35 uh in in in other representation like they call it the delegation it's much smaller it's typically a staff or three or four or five person and then there is offices and then it's typically one or two person uh working in that office for example the kebek office in uh in Atlanta pretty small and so there's different types of representation and also don't forget that state-owned enterprise of kebek also have its separate representation and there's unigration offices are separated from uh the the the account from the ministry of international relations but uh to answer more directly your question there's no some intense analysis uh by expert to know where we should open location it really depends on the political parties and there's the specific interest of the government in place i will say thank you thank you um we are very tight for time but i wonder if i could squeeze in one last final question but we do need to close for chamber um shortly uh i was interested um miss gosal mentioned you know um some of the expertise scotland has in education in quantum computing ai and data robotics and uh software and games uh and outside of the european union we found ourselves in a situation where northern ireland um as a result of the windsurf framework keeps pace with europe um by default there is a political statement from the senate in wales and from the government in scotland that we should also keep pace with developments in europe but the uk government um has no stated objectives so we've just recently seen the european union legislate on ai and of course the uk government has added a recent lechley park summit on this issue i wonder if you could just give a brief reflection on how you influence global issues such as ai regulation or climate justice or some of the bigger global challenges and how how you have your voices heard in in those negotiations and deliberations and summits and if i could go to professor corneill first thank you i will say that in the contest of the european union uh it was a moment after the treaty of mass reaching with some institutional venues for regions to be participants no in the policy making uh were open but in the case of spain the result has been very disappointing uh so then of course the basco women stills claim reclaiming no vindicated no that they have to be there in some critical negotiations but for instance the committee of regions is almost a dormant i will say there are no clear expectations for for reform uh with may for instance in the treaty of lisbon investments were were minimal no with the early warning system no when there is an invasion of regional powers but i will say that there is a there is a sort of disappointment for regions across europe and this is something that the basco women also has on the other hand and this is another element is that the very crisis no the financial crisis 10 years ago the the covid crisis the current crisis has produced a completely different institutional system in the european union no decision making critical decision making has been displaced to the council no uh there is a sort of institutional de formalisation no and despite the importance of the parliament of course the european parliament which is out of dispute i will say that there is no clear vision of what is there the place of regions in this in this important no elements of policy making so from this point of view this explains that the basco women has an emphasis in the importance of the recognition of the so-called regions with legislative powers no in some moment Scotland was also part of the of part of this network the basco women stills committed with this and they have the the vision that around the a new reform of the treaties in the european union may come this aspects will be addressed no after many many years in which has been i will say forgotten or more beyond this with the spanish system today is extremely difficult for autonomous communities and for the bas country as well to be to be active part in the negotiations even in those aspects which are further exclusive powers this is a defeat that we have that is difficult to resolve i mentioned before the belian mother no the four internal and four external to this will be very difficult in spain to achieve but unless this is resolved the role for autonomous communities will be minimal and negotiations affecting even the most critical powers they have thank you thank you and a professor parkham yeah so on climate issue cobalt has been participating in conference party the beginning of the 1990s and typically the prime minister or minister will be well attend the event with some staff and with some NGO members and this seems to be working because all gore said many times that quabec is a green superpower and so you did the thoughts that quabec does repeatedly you're working overtime and in terms of an artificial intelligence this is also a key issue for for for quabec material and in canada as a whole so one of the leading scholar on the issue of mr benjio is you know supported by the governor of quabec they created an institute and artificial intelligence and they are responsible co-responsible stuff of this ethical use of artificial intelligence in the world and the governor of quabec tries to promote this about you know so a former prime minister told me if you want to if you have a full room of people in oncon the only way quabec can do it is if if they talk about artificial intelligence and so they use these very important issues to to become more involved and have more influence so this is a this is a good a good case of what we call niche diplomacy you know they select a specific issue and they brand themselves with this issue internationally over and over again and with the passing of time you know that leaves traces and it's so you can you cannot build influence like that okay i'm i'm afraid we've come to the end of our time this morning i the fact that we've run right up against it i think is is testament to how much we've enjoyed the session and i'm thankful for your contributions to to to both of you thank you very much for your attendance this morning and i now close the committee