 of each one of the regions in this white geographical space. However, if there is a common point in the colonial experience of America, it's no doubt in a general way abuse and violence, and in particular slavery. The slave experience and the subsequent racialization and racial hierarchy of society cannot be separated from the colonial memory because of the experience of the past and because they are updated in the present due to the maintenance of an exclusive and democratic narrative in the public space. So when we speak of colonial memories, we are talking about the different ways in which the past has been transmitted to our generations, either from the perspective of official narratives of the history of conquest and domination, or maybe from the perspective of resistance. As in authoritarianism, inequalities and violence are not the only points of the colonial past and they're updated in new ways of Latin American lives and bodies. And these memories are also updated, rethought and demand specific and concrete measures for the future. Therefore, I would like to talk about four different situations that have happened in different American countries that talk about discussions on colonial memory. First, Canada, 2008. In Canada, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was created in 2008 with the aim of investigating the public policies of forced assimilation of children from different native peoples developed by the Canadian state between 1870 and 1970, and compensating their victims for the abuses that were committed. Its research focus was on the so-called indigenous residential schools, spaces where children were educated from Western model and that the responsibility of the Catholic Church prohibiting their languages and contact with their families. The commission concluded that more than 150,000 indigenous people were moved to these schools and in addition to cultural genocides, there were a series of physical and sexual abuses resulting in 3,200 deaths. These schools and the racist policies of assimilation can only be understood if we recover the historical violence against native peoples based on their inferiority. As a proposal, the Canadian case is not different from many other policies of memory that aim at recognition and reparation. But in this case, the demand of the victims has been completely different from what usually happens. Once these works were finished, the high Canadian Supreme Court accepted the request from several institutions of the original people and ordered the destruction of the material produced by the commission. The destruction of these records, which remain confidential, is for 2027 and only the depositors can claim the preservation of the audio recording and transcript of their witnesses and the court ruling in their cases. This example shows us that the duty of memory, remembrance as an obligation and the monumentalization and sacredness of the past are useful for certain cultures but are not universal values because they have different conceptions and ways of relating to history and memory and they have different forms of temporal organizations for native peoples to preserve their narratives of human rights. This is a new way of violence. The Canadian case reminds us that in dealing with social memory, nothing is obvious or natural. Two, the case of Mexico, 2019. March 2019, the Mexican president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador sent a letter to Philip VI of Spain and Pope Francis asking them to apologize to the original peoples for the abuses and crimes committed during the conquest. The Spanish government, in a statement related by La Moncloa, said it deeply regrets, deeply regrets the letter sent, the contents of which rejects. Letter continues in these terms. Arrival 500 years ago of Spanish people to the current Mexican lands cannot be judged in the light of contemporary considerations. Our brother peoples have always known how to read our share paths without anger and with a constructive perspective. López Obrador made the request as part of his plan for the calendar of celebrations and commemorations and proposes turning the year 2021 into the year of great reconciliation. Since that date marks 500 years since the fall of Tenochtitlan and 200 years since Mexico's independence. Similarly, his government has also changed the state's relationship with the original peoples who have historically been discriminated against in the country's project of nationhood and also with the black population which for the first time has responded in the 2020 census whether it's considered black, Afro-Mexican or African-descendant. Although the request for forgiveness is a symbolic act of recognition by Spain of the abuse and violence of the conquest process, we know that its demand stems from cultural references not necessarily shared by the original peoples of Central America for home celebrating the bicentenary of independence may mean the continuation of the violence processes of the colonial period. Let's also talk about La Moncloa's response in its critique to its conception and anachronistic request. Anachronism that accused Mexicans of not sustain because Mexicans do not seem to deny or even attempt to rewrite the history of the conquest. Hernán Cortés will not cease to exist. Criticism focuses on contemporary commemorations and tributes implicitly Mexicans ask their former metropolis like a mirror. Like a mirror. So on the 12th of October we'll continue as day of the race or day of Hispanicity. What identity is that that imposes reconciliation on all their past from the most distant one to those of the 20th century? Number three, Chile, 2016, 19, sorry. In October 2019, there was a clash, the 30-pistols revolution, even if the man was focused on deep social reforms, protestors have re-signified, re-signified, sorry, existing monuments on colonizers and supremacist intellectuals as well as slave monuments. And this is the narrative of the nation, of course, but at least 329 monuments were destroyed or re-signified in less than three months. Some events were organized by indigenous organizations, Mapuche, Armada, Quechua, and Rapa Nui, nonetheless. It's not only about an historical reparation of the conquest process, but rather an approximation between the colonial violence and the precarious conditions of the population after five decades of a neoliberal regime. The iconoclastic movement expanded towards other American regions, and iconoclastia in America was pushed forward after the murder of George Floyd. With Floyd's assassination, the criticism tried to explicit how colonialism can be, can't be dissociated from racism as a second element. It's not about heritage destruction. As Richard Binyos said, it's about building up a new narrative. I would like to end a quote here. If we smash the disturbing turn and the grammar and the language and the structure of colonialism, the narrative on the nation and human relationships. Number four, Brazil, 2020. Speaking about Brazil, we need to start by referring to Colombo and to what extent he signified colonialism in Brazil in a rapid check to the zip codes in Brazil. We find at least 250 avenues with his name. That means 250 omeges to the Italian sailor. When it comes to Alvarez Cabral, the discoverer of Brazil, there are 267 registered public spaces under his name and many, many benefited of the colonialism process. So I'd like to stop here now to bore you in the Portuguese America and in the Brazilian Empire was the destination of the majority of slaved Africans for more than three centuries, more than six million people were enslaved in America. Beyond all the moral elements that can be argued against the slavery, it's important to understand that in the 19th century, human trafficking, even if it was banned, was still a reality and it was tolerated by Brazilian authorities due to the economic benefits stemming from slave trade and African work exploitation. There's another dimension of colonial memory which is the denial policy on the slavery past in Brazil led by Jail Bolsonaro beyond his racist declarations. Bolsonaro and his ministers and secretaries defend an interpretation of the Brazilian society based on what's called the myth of racial democracy. It's a complex formulation. I know and I will try to summarize it very briefly. In the 19th century after Brazil's independence, it was necessary to come up with a new narrative for the new independent state. In this case, there were many challenges. It was important to make a clear difference with Portugal, the former metropolis, at the same time, no one wanted to detach from the progress coming from Europe related to the economic and intellectual elites in Brazil. Also, it was necessary to redefine Brazilian identity. Nonetheless, the ethnic composition of the population meant an opposition to this ideal due to the broad majority of Africans and Afro-descendants. That's how many historical readings denying the rule of Afro-Brazilians in the composition of the national identity was built up. And there was a lot of references on pseudo-scientific references regarding race. After the proclamation of the Republic, the Brazilian state expanded European migration policies in Brazil and it was a policy to widen the population in the first decades of the 20th century. Authoritarian intellectuals assessed the necessary time so that Brazilian population would be wider, 30 or 40 years, that was their calculation. It was a way to deny conflict and silence around civil political rights in Brazil. And this was the basis of a fake idea of balance between the three elements that composed the Brazilian society, indigenous populations, blacks and white. It was a racial democracy that allowed the perpetuation of white privilege, the supervision of indigenous communities by the state and the genocide of the black population. In November the 19th, a man, a black man was assassinated by two police officers in Carrefour supermarket after a discussion. Before dying, he said to his wife, please help me because he couldn't breathe. Today's after Bolsonaro, Bolsonaro in his stitch before the G20 criticizes the wave of protests to the nouns racism in Brazil. And the president declared that Brazil has a very diverse culture unique amongst nations. We are a melting pot, white, black and indigenous peoples that unified the spirit of a marvelous country. We are a unique Brazilian family. We are diverse and it's diverse to the essence of these peoples of our country, sorry. And of course, according to Bolsonaro, Bolsonaro protesters are trying to destroy the essence of Brazil. Let me quote Bolsonaro again, please. They aim at raising conflict, resent, hate and division amongst races. They are always under the mask of social balance but they only want power, that's what the president said. There is no such thing as a better color of a skin than other. They're good and bad human beings. Our choices define to what extent we will be part of one group or another, but those who aim at conflict, attempt against the nation and our history end of quote. Bolsonaro goes back to the idea of racial democracy when he says that there is no such thing as racial division in Brazil. He says that there's only Brazilians in Brazil. This is a denial of the Brazilian reality. I hope that I underlined the important link between colonial memory, racialization, and racism. I hope that the industrial and negationism for the colonizers is present in the colonialism. This is now seen in colonialism, in neo-colonialism and racism. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Carolina. While we wait for questions from our participants, I would like to say that there's something that really caught my attention. You mentioned that institutions of Canada ask for the destruction of the material recovered by the commission gathered by the commission. And this made me think about the argument that many against the destruction of monuments and statues being tribute to slavers. Well, they say that it's important to preserve monuments, to recall, to remember this historical moment. This is an argument of this oftentimes used against the destroyment of these monuments. And so according to your presentation, it's clear that this is so how a Western European wide narrative that is not related to the narratives in original peoples. So for them, having these monuments in the public space is painful, right? How do you see this element? How do you see this unbalance between both narratives, between one narrative and the other? I think that each case is different. And of course, we need to see what to do with our historic memory in each environment. Of course, there is a clear difference between one place and another. The resignification of monuments derived with that in the Canadian case. The main problem or what we have to discuss in the Canadian case is that the popular, the demand stems from victims. So those that have been victimized who are claiming for a discussion of their case, right? But there are many who, while the Canadian Supreme Court has authorized citizens to allow or not allow their registers. So now there are organizations who ensure that these registers are preserved for those who wanted to preserve them. So there's a possibility to preserve them if and only if we consider that it's important from a historical perspective, from a citizenship perspective, from a social memory perspective, et cetera. But as a reparation policy, now if we only look at the victims, I believe that we should make a clear difference between each case, right? Between each environment, each context, historical context. But your question makes me think about who do we target when we approve memory policies? Are we targeting only victims, such as the sentence or indigenous peoples in Canada under the sentence or all the Canadian citizenship? Because of course it's a difference, right? If we target all society, we need to of course preserve registers or destroy them, the debate then is brought down. There's no doubt about that. So it's a very interesting discussion, no doubt about it. It's a very interesting discussion. But as an expert of colonial memory in America, I would like to ask you, how do you perceive the situation in the American continent? How do you see the debate about memory and colonial memory? Is there a debate on colonial memory or is it rather something that goes rather unnoticed under the carpet? What's your take on that? Paula, I would say that things change depending on the context on the country, sorry. But I believe that in Latin America, one could stick about waves, more progressive waves where we phase the past and more conservative waves in which people aim at looking towards the theater, etc. So one could stick about waves in Latin America, moments in which historic memory is more present. There's an opportunity in the public debate, to debate about colonial past and moments where this is impossible. What happened in Chile last year has been a clear example and a great opportunity to ensure that in other countries, there's an awareness-raising process on their colonial memory and the homage that is oftentimes paid to the colonial past in Chile, in Uruguay, in Argentina, also in Brazil. But I believe that for a very long time, there has been a certain Germany on the memory, on dictatorships and the traumatic past that we refer to before the more recent past of dictatorships in the 60s and 70s. So the colonial past, the past, the genocides that were perpetrated against the indigenous people were not taken into account until quite recently in Latin America. Now, thankfully, there are some public policies targeting this colonial past that got rid of the indigenous communities. And this is part of our activism against racism. It's not only about speaking about the originary populations, it's about speaking about the indigenous peoples. From my perspective, I believe that year 2019 was a milestone to frame new policies, new memory policies to open new debates and new awareness-raising policies on the topic. Absolutely. After the next presentation, perhaps we could go back to the idea that colonial is, it's not a fact from the past. Colonialism is still alive in terms of its consequences. Yeah, absolutely. My apologies. Let's go ahead. No, I was telling you that that's precisely what I like, speaking about colonialism and coloniality, as Anibal Guiharo says, because beyond colonialism per se from the 16th century onwards, there's coloniality, one would say, which is still alive today with the interiorization of colonialist processes from the metropolis to the colonies, et cetera, introducing the logic of inequality, the coloniality of power that Anibal Guiharo refers to. Absolutely. I would like to introduce our next speaker. He is Mbúlica Bondavadi. He's a PhD in political science by the Complutants University of Madrid and he holds also a BA in political science by the University of the RDC. Today, he's a professor and a member of the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg. He's also a professor and a member of the studies research, African studies research group in Autonomous Madrid. His main topic of research are inter-African relationships, Africa in the international system, Africa and South cooperation. He's probably more than a hundred articles in specialized magazines and collective joint articles on the area of human rights, conflict in Africa, among other topics, amongst his main articles. One should list new conflict in Congo, internalization and human rights in Africa. So let me go back and Mbúlica Bondavadi, sorry for the pronunciation. I would like to hand it over to him for his presentation and then we'll open a Q&A session. Hello, can you hear me? Can you see me also? I would like you to hear and see me. Yeah, we can see you and hear you. So we are good to go. My apologies. I have immense technical problems and I've taken a while to be online. Thankfully, we've solved the problem. There we go. Let's speak about colonialism in Africa. Let me go back to the black slavery process in Africa and somehow build the bridge between the past and the present because there's still a life in Africa and in Latin America. The balance today on the slavery process, I don't want to go into a figure as a war. Researchers speak about 10 to 12 million Africans slaves in America, whereas Giuseppe Giserbo, known by his academic sounders, speaks about 200 million. Here we have to go back to four centuries of slavery. Four centuries of slavery. So reality is that one could agree that at least 17 million Africans were slaved, 25 million were also slaves in America. All in all, 42 million slaves were sent abroad from Africa. This is, of course, a horrible reality in the sense that one of the main reasons why Africa is underdeveloped today is precisely the fact that slavery is still on life because Africa was, Africa was, I don't want to go into a figure as a war. As I said before, but going back to African colonization, colonization started at the end of the 19th century when Latin American countries just ended their decolonization process when they got rid of their colonies from Spain and Portugal. So one could say that colonization could be considered as the basis of oxidant and the industrial revolution in the 19th century in the Western world. And one could say that colonization is based on the domination of a few on the majority, on others, especially those, well, in Africa, the European colonization was radically different to what one would say the Iberian colonization. The Spaniards and the Portuguese were different forms of colonization, right? In Africa, colonization was based on exploitation. So Pidache, everything that was there in the African soil was used for export, whereas in the case of Latin America, both Portuguese and Spaniards intermingled with the local populations and they came up with the Criolo that ended up ensuring or rather running local governance. So this is an important difference that one should take into account. But in Africa, colonization was very aggressive, very violent. Pidache undirected British colonization or colonization based on assimilationism by the French or the policy implemented by the patronizing colonialism led by Spaniards and Belgians and the ultra-colonialism, the Portuguese ultra-colonialism, all these forms of colonialism have a common base, a common pillar, which is the dehumanization and the modification of Africans. So colonization, European colonization in the African continent was based on a political domination because these colonies were run from the metropolis and it was also an exploitation and economic exploitation. And of course, this meant that, well, this was against Africa and in Latin America and it was also a cultural genocide, an ethnocide. So we destroyed through colonization the originary cultures in Africa and in Latin America. So we have a serious problem here, which is the reparation process. As it has been said at the beginning, that African culture as well as many Latin American people's cultures were destroyed, were smashed. Slavery meant the, I mean, there was a parallel process, right? And we need a reparation here now. Franz Fanon, who's the one who really reflected about the topic, he says that we need two dimensions for a true reparation. There's a mental reparation, psychological reparation based on rehabilitating the person and then there's a material side of a reparation through the elimination of external debt in South hemisphere countries or official aid, development aid to ensure that we can solve different crises that colonialism, that European colonialism had created in this continent. So at the other way, it's about ensuring that we give back all that has been stolen by Europe. Then it's a restitution process to the original people. So I would quickly say that colonization in Africa, well, it's about time to go back, to give back what was stolen to the original peoples as Eduardo Galliano said, Africa was depleted of its natural resources and human resources. They were, I mean, Africans were sent, were stolen to be sent to work, to stolen lands in Latin America. So now it's about handing it back. So all the crime against humanities that were committed can be defined on the basis of three principles. First, principle, European colonialism. Secondly, slavery, processes, and neocolonialism because when colonization ended in Latin America and in Africa, it was like a second colonization or a more subtle form of domination based on offering Africans and Latin Americans. It had an internal and external sovereignty, but that was fake because at the end of the day, the former metropolis or during the Cold War, a power without a colonial power kept exploiting natural resources in this country. So... So I will say as a brief summary that Africa within the framework of neocolonialism is to France what Latin America is for the US. Therefore, historically, we have imposed to those countries slavery, colonialism, neocolonialism and also currently neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is a way of domination in the hands of international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Immolatory Fund which impose a shock therapy or better said killer recipes to the peoples of Africa and also Latin America. Therefore, I would say, and this as a way of conclusion the generations of historical domination between North and South, between Europe, the US on the one hand and Africa and Latin America on the other have not ended yet and continue to exist through the neoliberal model. So this is the only way because historically, historically we have scourged those countries and we continue with these asymmetric practices and everything they do is to make those peoples of Africa and Latin America poorer. As my colleague who spoke before me and she said very quickly time has come to reparations, to repair US and Europe should take on their historical responsibilities for having colonized those countries and peoples. Thank you very much. And I look forward to your questions, any aspect that you would like me to dwell on. Well, thank you very much. And Buye, while we wait for questions by people who are attending the conference, let me ask you a question because I was thinking about Francis Panon and I was also thinking about what Panon says about this racial hierarchies and the area of the self and non-self and we see that although time has gone by since he elaborated some theories about this, the situation has not changed. We continue with this situation which I was still placed in this area of the non-self that Panon was mentioning and thinking about the subject of neo-mocolonialism, and I remember listening to you talking about the second decolonization. What will this second decolonization be about? Thank you very much for asking this question because contrary to Latin America that has taken a very important step forward by saying no to the neoliberal model. It has been clearly seen in the decade of the 90s where we have listened to leaders such as Lula, Hugo, Chávez, Evo, Morales or the Krisners such as Cristina and Nestor or these leaders who say no to the neoliberal model but in Africa and this is something quite striking there is total compliance with the neoliberal model as it has created so many difficulties in the African continent. So Africa needs a second decolonization process because the first one, the way it took place did not consist nothing else than changing the way they were acting. In the end, everything continues to be the same. So time has come to say no to the programs of structural adjustment and also no to the Washington consensus which as I have mentioned already, this shock therapy what they have done is to add in Africa austerity measures to misery. African peoples are paying a high price for this, for all these mechanisms through slavery, colonialism, neo-colonialism, neoliberalism, this process of Washington. It's all a whole chain of practices with the only objective of making those of the self poorer in favor of the center or not. Samira was saying and the theoretical of the independence they are rich because we are poor. But how would it be possible to reach the second decolonization taking into account that in general the political, economically it's of those countries of the global South are very Western allies. They have taken on this contradiction as their own, as an ideal to reach. And therefore they are always looking towards Europe and the Western world as an ideal as an objective. Taking this into account, how can we implement the second decolonization? I don't know, maybe a generation of young people, new people with another mentality on mindset. Well, it's the second decolonization and at the same time what we could call the second liberation movement because the first one took place against the colonization and the second one has to happen against neoliberalism or say it in other words, I think that on the one hand this has already started to happen in the South and it started in Latin America new class of leaders who are much more aware of the interests of their peoples and ready to defend their interests. While in Africa, it's not the only continent where imperialism and neocolonialism have been very aggressive. We have seen for example leaders who have tried to serve the interests of their peoples. I'm thinking in leaders such as Patricio Lumumba, the first prime minister of the Democratic Republic of El Congo, Saquiefo, Nomencuba, Ingana or Amici in Guinea. These leaders try to change, they try to place the economies of their countries at the disposal of the countries or the case of Mandela in South Africa. And he was sent to jail. Those leaders tried to change, but unfortunately either they have trained them in a diplomatic way or they have sent them to jail or if they are not lacking of, I'm trying to change and the destiny wanted him to be killed. Therefore the Western Wall has killed two, three people but they're doing other things. And sooner or later, because injustice cannot be kept for a long time and everywhere. And we have already seen the birth of a class of African leaders and Latin American leaders who go against the current of this interest. As a summary, I would say that the African crisis before talking about economic and political crisis, we are talking about the crisis of leadership. Why? Because those leaders of African countries and they don't deserve them are governors from North to South and commissioned by the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund to safeguard the interests of Europe and the US. Perfect. I have a question by the public. There is a question for Nbuji about the policies of memory and restitution promoted by Europe. And we have established a dialogue about the devolution of heritage. No, the problem was already introduced in Durban. I think 1992 were African countries in the hands of Yoruba Moschuda Abiola who was the head of the opposition to military dictatorship in this country said that we should implement reparation, historical repair. And when he introduced this concept in Durban, the US and Israel abandoned the conference saying that it was not possible. They could not satisfy this way of thinking and this course, a very dangerous discourse has started to emerge which consists first of all in saying that the African people had contributed to slavery by selling their brothers on the one hand and on the other, the African leaders are partially responsible for the underdevelopment of the continent and therefore they should respond for that. I think this is just a strategy. This is just a hypothesis which is trying to lose sight of these historical crimes which already happened. This is why I want to say that we should proceed to this repair and African leaders on the other hand because they have not liberated their countries and their peoples because they have not developed those peoples, they also have the duty, they have the duty to repair the underdevelopment on the violation of human rights that have taken place in their countries. Well, thank you very much and Booyi. There's someone who makes a comment through the chat. I don't know if people would like to see it because it's not a question, just a comment. We'd like to ask you, Caroline, because you were mentioning and the Akihano who is one of the founding members of the decolonial thinking in Latin America and the Akihano work on a very interesting concept which is the coloniality of power and I would like for those who are not familiar with this concept, if you could please explain to us what is this about and what is he thinking about when he's mentioning this concept? Very well. First of all, the comment made in the chat, I think that it's about the situation of the commission of truth in Canada and I think that it has impacted on people this policy because of the oblivion, because we talk about policies for memory but this one is because of oblivion. I think it's very important to think about the right to forget because we often talk about this so people can talk about the traumatic experiences and also as a way of building and constructing ethic and moral way of thinking shared by the citizenship but what about the victims because they have the right to be forgotten and it's difficult because we are talking about the case of repair and the repair of the victims and also what it means for groups and collective so it's difficult but it's very interesting this comment this idea of heritage by a French author if I'm not mistaken, I think I have read it here Tunisio Bembe, well, I don't know him but I think that this is a very interesting idea to take into account in colonialism. Well, what about the colonization of power in a very synthetic way? This is what we were saying when we were talking about the process of colonialism and it establish a relationship between the metropolis and the colonies where there was hierarchy of powers and also between the society and different races and also the processes of independence so there was a transfer of this structure to the elites, economic and intellectual elites of America who reproduced this power structure created by colonialism in an internal way and this power structure was built also by colonialism and reproduced by local elites in their Latin American countries continues to exist nowadays when for example, we say that as in Brazil there is not racism or in Brazil there are no races there is just the Brazilian who is a race-less being and I think that there are other factors that help us to understand coloniality. We can talk about the coloniality of knowledge or the way we interpret our realities in Africa or in America and readings by European intellectuals or North American the way they are presented to us as the only possibility to understand this heritage so coloniality has this aspect of power, power of the state which is a more visible power of the institutions, state power but there are other ways of exerting power which are more invisible which are the coloniality of knowledge, coloniality of racial institutions which are reproduced in our societies. As Natura de Santos mentioned everything which is related to the coloniality of knowledge there is a question for both speakers and Buji and Caroline what is the impact of activism or movements such as Black Lives Matter in the policies of memory? Do they have any influence on them? I think that completing what Carolina was saying we should not promote as when Natura was saying the epistemologies of the South. Time has come to opt for decolonization of the minds and this means also strengthening the knowledge and practices so this is a key factor in order to allow how to go away from these leaders in Africa who are allied to imperialism and neocolonialism. What has happened with these movements of Black Lives Matter from what I would call aggressive and institutional racism which happens at the roots of the Westphalian nation state which is the manifestation once again of the non-respect of historical rights of Black people and indigenous peoples. We have seen clearly what happened in the US with George Floyd and last week also in France attacks against Black people or Latin American people against indigenous people it's just another manifestation of the attitude of inequality between North and South and also exclusion of those people. So time has come to end this institutional racism, which is taking place from the apparatus of the state. Caroline, yes, from Brazil we have many researchers who talk about the idea of we White people talking about how we talk about Blackness of Black culture. We also talk about Whiteness and to highlight the paper the role that we had as White people in this colonial process and also to talk about the way racism has an impact in ourselves, White people, in different ways of course but of course we are privileged and we are kept in the structure of reproduction of social inequality but I think that the question is a very important question the Black Lives Matter and also how does it impact in this activism and the policies of memory. But I think that we have to be careful about using, present this perspective which places the protagonist just in these contemporary movements in Brazil for example, there is this Black movement which is organized since the 60s and the 70s and it has been thanks to this Brazilian Black movement that we had some laws passed promoting the compulsority by the Brazilian state of teaching the history of Africa and African culture which was not one of the school subjects in Brazil and also the law of racial quotas in the university and it's thanks to this historical Black movement from the associations of the post-end of slavery in Brazil that we own these policies of memory to the colonial Brazilian history. Black Lives Matter movement is important because it has an important role to play in the media, in the digital world but this is historical and it dates back from many years. Yes, maybe the movement what it allows for is to place on the table another debate in a massive way thanks to the media with another movements that have a bigger historical trajectory we have not been able to do it and it's this commonality because it becomes like a fashionable hashtag and on the other hand it allows us to place on the table an issue which is sometimes difficult to debate. I have a question for Mbuji from the chat what is the decade that you consider that we went from neo-colonial control to neoliberal control? So how did we go from neo-colonial control to neoliberal control? What is the decade in which this happened? I think, well thank you very much for the question, perfect. I think that we went from neo-colonialism to neoliberalism at the end of the 80s and the financial institutions international financial institutions took advantage of the economic crisis the crisis of debt which had affected so many countries during the decade of the 80s which is considered like a lost decade they took advantage of this voidness and also they took advantage of the currents against the Keynesian policies and this is when they started to elaborate in the case for example of Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan they said that there was no another way for the neoliberal to the neoliberal model an alternative to the ultra-liberal model they implemented and it was precisely from the decade of the 80s when they start to implement these structural adjustment policies with the main objective of destructing the private sector sorry, the destruction of the state and the public sector in favor of the private sector and this is what they implemented and this is what explains that we have gone from structural adjustment programs to reach the Washington Consensus it's the same idea, the same ideology which consists in favoring international trade following the rules conceived for the rich and at the same time making the private sector the engine of development thank you very much and for Caroline I have a question as a movement of extreme right Bolsonaro what are the consequences on this past? yes, it does have some consequences many consequences because they think that all the demands which are demands that we could call of identity identitarian demands are demands of segregation of this national unit therefore everything which is proposed as policies of affirmative actions are policies that are considered discrimination, a positive discrimination and they think this is a way of benefitting certain sectors of society and I think they believe that this is an affront to the principle of the equality of everybody in front of the law so there are racial quotas in university it's a discrimination for the white population because they don't have this advantage in front of the others so they are very weak from the argument but for part of the sectors of the Brazilian society they do make sense and they are accepted because I think that the idea of the mixture of the Brazilian society is something which is difficult for someone who is going to benefit from policy of repair so yes this policy is very extreme right by Bolsonaro does not start with Bolsonaro he probably did not start with Bolsonaro but he is revisiting as I said in my talk this idea of racial democracy which is something present in societies of Brazil since the 19th century precisely because it started in the 19th century we know that it's very close to an idea a historical interpretation which is very much reactionary and close to a romantic perspective of society and the idea of nation as a unity and also as this indivisibility which we know is utopia for Brazil okay and I will also say that besides having a romantic vision it's a vision with vested interest of realities what you were mentioning in your talk there is not a better color of skin than another which is a sentence by Bolsonaro this is something I have also heard from social movements here in Spain and I don't see colors I see people as denying the existence of racism as an oppression so you are denying and making invisible the whole experience of oppression experienced by migrant people with a sentence which wants to be politically correct sentence politically correct sentence and some people use this sentence in order to define themselves I'm not racist I don't see colors as denying and making invisible the experience of racism and Bolsonaro said that he only sees the yellow and green color which are the colors of the flag of Brazil so it's quite interesting and of course as a historian I think it's important to say that this is negationism and it's important to say and to call things about their name and this is denial of history and it's important to introduce all these concepts and it's also violence and as Caroline is saying it's a question of instrumental manipulation it's about movements and cultural ideas with the only objective to distract the population from the real problems from society and I would also like to say that I know that Latin America has a strong historical African presence and I think they should also take on this third African dimension of their culture not only because they should not talk about the white culture coming from Europe and of course the indigenous people and it has to be promoted it has to be promoted because from a historical perspective they have violated the rights of the Amerindians and the indigenous people it is also important to respect these African contributions which in my opinion are the third dimension of Latin American culture and Latin American identity in Cuba or in Cuba or the in Haiti which is present Africa is present in Latin America and I'm suggesting this to Caroline is the presence of Latin America in Africa through cooperation South-South and Buye I have another question for you what is the role of Afro-centricity in the reaper of the colonial past Afro-centricity is fundamental as it happened by fighters such as Professors Shek and Teo Diop and it's an ideology as Euro-centricism the negative character of this and it's just reasoning with exclusively positive dimensions is to strengthen the capacity of these endogenous by Africans and it has already been forcing in my intervention strengthening the capacity of Africans to count with their own strengths how Africa has given so many things to the world their arms and raw materials Africa has the right to wait and expect therefore the Afro-centricity Afro-centricism as I conceived it personally and the theory also consists in placing African and the African people at the heart of the action all these taking as an objective fighting against under development of the African continent so it's all about this is the essence of Afro-centrism there is another question from both of you how do you see this historic revisitation that tries to revisit colonialism Spanish colonialism in America something positive or at least less negative than other colonialism is very interesting because it's another argument that is often times used by people even belonging to the third social sector Carolina this is what I would like to say that it's very important to analyze it's not historic revisitation of the historian historian said well this is the way that those who deny racism and colonialism call themselves revisionists no it doesn't exist for us historians we use revisionism as a tool in our work it's a way of revisit interpretations and narratives from the past but one cannot revisit colonialism one can reinterpret it one can somehow reinterpret it but this is denial not visitation as I said before those who deny colonialism call themselves revisionists so careful with that in the last four or five years after the coup against Dilma Rousseff we are experiencing a period in which we are going back to the 19th century not only by positivizing colonialism and slavery but also Brazilian empire because well we need to clarify something here Brazil became independent in 1822 and it became an empire in a monarchy it was not a republic so the republican experience in Brazil started at the end of the 19th century in 1889 so for many well many believe that the Brazilian republican experience has been a total failure and that we have to go back to monarchy and the experience of the empire Portuguese royal family has to be sent back to Brazil as the source of power as the main source of power in Brazil and of course the Brazilian empire had a very long lasting slavery experience and a very strict moral etc so it's about going back to the past it's like going back to the 19th century as if the origin of all our problems dated back from the republican experience they want to go back to the part of the population want to recover the exemplarity I believe that's the word exemplarity of the monarchy experience in Brazil the exemplarity of the 19th century wants to be replicated to the challenges that we face in the 21st century in the development that we have experienced in Brazil in the last 20 years so this is the way to go back to the past of course it's a response to the progressist policies led by the Partido dos Tramaladoras which by the way were not very revolutionary it was only a way to try and provide citizens a social balance but nothing compared to a counter-revolution like the one we're experiencing I totally agree with Carolina it's not revisionism it's denial I agree with you so it has to do with propaganda extreme right propaganda that aim at reinterpreting negative historic events and putting them into positive like Sarcazeo the policy that has been implemented in France where they started saying that well colonization in Africa had not been that negative because it had contributed to building schools and hospitals and trained people well what's this about what's this interpretation this is a very dangerous interpretation because if you under this umbrella tomorrow will justify I don't know Nazism so we need to stop this I mean we need to be radical when it comes to this narrative because it's a very xenophobic and dangerous narrative aiming at justifying the attack against other peoples and there's no but it doesn't fit in history we need to condemn these interpretations with all our strength and totally rejected colonization and the Spanish colonial presence or the French colonial presence has been an attack and I'm not victimizing here it just a fact it's objective and it's lucid but yeah I would like to ask you the following because in some cases you have referred to international cooperation and how international cooperation has been used by the north as an external policy to obtain economic benefits commercial benefits and even geopolitical benefits could you perhaps elaborate on the idea considering that for many of us probably the concept of international cooperation is like a sacred concept like one of the tools that rich countries has to help developing countries or impoverished countries thank you thanks for the question because I wanted to I wanted to share this point in my presentation by even half time so yeah international cooperation or international aid has been used to rich hidden objects and the clearest example has been France through its international cooperation policy has reached the end of the year France is the country that invests more money to international aid in Africa but out of the aid that France directs to Africa only 5% riches a year Africa sorry so there's the France Africa what I call France Africa France and Asia is a mafia between French and Africans for the French the aim is to obtain resources African resources to fund the electoral campaign in France and for Africans they want to be in power it's a mafia it's a very dark network of political cultural and economic domination as well as military domination through means such as the international organization for Francophony or the Frank CFA which is a colonial currency that France has imposed on its colonies or networks such as the military actions or the military bases that still exist in the African continent so international aid and international cooperation has been used to put forward hidden agenda that international cooperation if we do a balance of international cooperation is a total failure international aid is a total failure because Africa has received the greater funds and still we are super underdeveloped because in Africa international aid has been used for other purposes but development such as enrichment of the elites of the African elites of the donors in the north and beneficiaries in the south and we are the ones that we have lost and of course many African leaders have enriched themselves under the umbrella of international cooperation it's very vague and the objective of international French aid is to make Africa and Latin America better market for French products and it has been authorized and it has been used as a mass destruction I would even dare saying currently nobody would like to say something regarding international cooperation used as a tool to hide objectives and push forward hidden agendas and well what I believe like Umbue said that it's a very important tool that countries use for reparation can you hear me we can hear you yeah no problem you get I believe that international cooperation is an important tool for material reparation I believe that it's important to have sound international aid mechanisms at the same time I would say that relationships in the context of international aid doesn't happen necessarily between countries but rather there is I don't know institutional exchange like we're doing here today right we speak about different points of view etc international cooperation is key I'm not saying there is no mafia involved but part of international cooperation is key good listening to your presentations it's clear to me that there is a reality which is neocolonialism that affects the same old countries that have been victims of colonialism since 1412 so absolutely it's very interesting I would like to ask you both the following to what extent I mean how would you make the link between the situation of colonialism with racism with structural racism what's the link right between the situation today and colonialism well I believe that colonialism and racism go hand in hand that's why in the Bangdung conference back in 1965 progressed Leather John Lyre, she knows one Lyre and Gamal Abdel Nasser from Egypt or the Yugoslavian Mariskal Tito condemned racism and colonialism both things because these are instruments that have been used to undermine and dominate the South and it's clear during the Cold War even during the Cold War countries that have intervened in Israel, Africa have supported Western countries and they have supported South Africa there has been a clear aggression against the rebellious Odessia and the descendants had proclaimed a republic and they received all the necessary support from the UK and other countries from the North so racism and colonialism have always gone hand in hand they are Alice Caroline I agree 100% and I would say that in Leathermacher there is a whole argument for a soft capitalism a capitalism without racism which is impossible because the system is based on human hierarchisation and of course the first hierarchisation is a racial one so it's impossible there is no such thing so for you it's incompatible right there is no such thing as a non-racist capitalism do you believe it's possible to speak about racism today I mean some people accept racism as a category of oppression but when we speak about colonialism it's like we're speaking about something from the past so we're like seeing us weird they're like what do you do, why do you speak about colonialism thank you very much to both of you I don't know if you would like to share one last comment we need to close the session would you like to make a final comment well I would like to be a little bit provocative but perhaps I don't know perhaps it's not the time to do it because we're coming to the end of the session I would like to like the I mean I had the opportunity to live in Barcelona for a couple of years while I was doing my PhD and after a PhD period and I believe I've learned a lot living in a former metropolis it was my first European experience it was my first experience living in a former colonial metropolis what I would like and I believe that all the reflections around historic memory and Columbus memory are very important I believe it's very important in the context of a city that broadcasts itself as a modern city as a welcoming city receiving migrants from all parts of the world and I believe that this is an extremely important element so it's important to come up with this reflection at the same time I would like to invite all white Spaniards Catalans all those listening to us please start questioning the Spanish monarchy because it's in the monarchy who benefited the most from colonialism because of course it was a very specific royal family from Castilla but I believe that the Spanish monarchy is a continuity of colonialism and we need to rethink the monarchy the monarchy system in Spain because the imposition of the monarchy system is noted upon because all the actions that we carry out always target the future the past cannot be changed but the present and the future we can change it so this is the comment the Spanish monarchy is a continuity of colonialism and perhaps we should get rid of this monarchy so that the world is just a little bit more democratic here's a question and in last comment no doubt about it what I would say is that we need to I mean in Africa more importantly we need to act quickly to put an end to this alliance between imperialism international imperialism and internal colonialism because there is a connection there is a clear connection we need to put an end to this colonial agreement that was based on bringing I mean asking African countries to become a reservoir of raw materials it's impossible to be a developed country to be on the basis of raw materials and well this has allowed western empires to have access to raw materials to cheap raw materials in Africa and in Latin America so we need to put an end to this dependency to the p-dash that Europe has been imposing on Africa and Latin America and also I would say that it's about time to promote indigenous movement in Latin America so that we allow indigenous peoples whose rights where on the mind we need to allow indigenous peoples to cover their basic needs well according to my perspective this can only be achieved if we put an end to inequalities if we reduce inequalities between peoples and non-indigenous peoples European peoples I am thinking here about the case of Bolivia or the case of Guatemala even Brazil where there are important amounts of indigenous peoples that are clearly excluded as well as Afro-descendants. Thank you very much once again thank you very much thank you very much Carolina thank you much to the organizers of the session of the workshop and let's keep decolonizing ourselves thank you very much goodbye