 Good thank you all for coming particularly on such a wonderful summer's day, and I'm sure Limerick people thanks also for coming there may have been a three-in-a-row few three-in-a-row parties last night So particular thanks for coming to start could I thank professor Kirsten May of the University of Limerick president of this glorious? Campus it's looking particularly glorious on a summer morning like this This is the second in a series of events Europe is our future Looking at the huge opportunities. There are continental European markets for companies based in Ireland My name is down a Brian. I'm the chief economist at the Institute of International European Affairs one of the two Organizations hosting this event The other will I'll introduce you hand over to Leo Clancy the CEO of Enterprise Ireland in a minute But we've a packed agenda Starting off with our keynote speaker and particularly thanks to Commissioner Murray McGinnis for joining us But I let our co-host CEO Leo Clancy do that introduction. Thank you all again Thank you, Dan. I think this must be the only full room in Limerick this morning. Is that right? So you're all very welcome here, and I'd like to also thank Dan and the IEA for a wonderful partnership It's crucially important to us I'd also like to thank Professor May for University of Limerick hosting us today And I'd like to compliment and then again our head of Europe and her team at Enterprise Ireland For all being here this morning and bringing Europe to Limerick this morning I think it's wonderful to see all my colleagues and I'm just over a year in this job So I'm meeting a number of colleagues to my eternal shame for the very first time given the pandemic So it is great to have people back together again I'd especially like to welcome though all our clients here this morning We do believe that Europe is our future We believe I believe personally that Europe has been underdone by Enterprise Ireland's clients very much compared to my last role where I led on a lot of foreign direct investment for Ireland and Companies would come to Ireland and use it as their base for all of Europe And I think that represents a massive opportunity for Irish companies I hope it's something you will all engage with and I hope today will help It's our special privilege though this morning That a great leader for Europe and a great leader for Ireland has Consented to be here this morning and and to give a keynote stress and participation Q&A Maureen McGinnis is the European Commissioner for financial services financial stability and the capital markets Union And I think it's fair to say Commissioner that your impact has been felt here in Ireland But across Europe and your your role has never been more important than it is now So it's our great privilege to have you here this morning and we look forward to hearing from you Thank you very much Okay before I do my formal start hands up those of you who are actually from Limerick Well, I just think that you are to be praised and rewarded but well done yesterday I know that hands up those of you who are from Kilkenny Well, all I can say is buy buy them a drink afterwards or be nice to them And I suppose we all even if you're not interested in sport You are interested in sport in Ireland and G is just amazing So thank you to all the Limerick people who turned up even though they didn't want to It was lovely to drive in this morning not just the weather and the greenery but the congratulations signs are up So certainly for SMEs in Limerick You are powered and charged now so you can go forth And I think Leo you made a very valid point in terms of companies come to Ireland to get to Europe And yet Irish companies here Perhaps haven't fully if you like Gone into Europe and looked at all of the opportunities So it is good to be here this morning. We had a lovely drive down Thank you, Daniel Bryan and thank you to your team at the IIEA. We've worked together before And I think it's good because you lead thought on Europe in Ireland and that's important And land again gets a special mention from my team in in Brussels So thank you and and indeed the entire enterprise Ireland team For today's event and I think that it's good that two organizations are working together and for the full house And can I thank the president for the use of the hall and what I really liked when we sat down and had a brief chat Is that your claim to be the most European of Irish universities because you have the most Students who use the Erasmus program. So that deserves a round of applause in my book I was just reflecting on 50 years and I know the university is reflecting on 50 years And I recall because I'm old enough to do that. My parents going out to vote in may of 1972 Sadly, they're no longer with us But I just think back to those people who made a decision a very decisive decision not for themselves But perhaps for future generations So they were among 83 percent of citizens who gave the resounding yes to Europe And as I mentioned limerick was also forming its university and it's also celebrating I think it's fair to say Ireland has come a long way in those 50 years We've helped shaped the shape the european union. I think the european union has also shaped us as a society and as a country We're now a strong and growing economy. We're export focused. We're home to global companies Experts in technology medical devices finance food and much more And indeed, I think universities like limerick have been part of the reason why we have made those leaps forward Not just because of the connections with europe, but the general Research innovation and learning that takes place We all know that europe responds really well in crisis I think that was what we saw during cova the very shaky start, but a very strong finish We weathered that public health pandemic But of course it hasn't gone completely away So we have to be mindful that it is still with us But I do remember january of this year and it seems like almost decades ago when we had emerging from the previous year and the pandemic And hopes were very high because the economic growth projections were very strong Our resilience was up and we felt we would go forward into 2022 without too many complications Because none of us predicted the war on european soil on february 24th So to some extent everything that is happening Is against now this backdrop of war on european soils Having said that some of the trends that have deepened were starting to emerge even before February So we were seeing the rising energy costs inflation was already a feature in january But of course the war has exacerbated those trends and the economic outlook is challenging And less certain and I think uncertainty is also something that we need to manage and not become the victims of I mentioned the word resilience and resilient and I think europe has shown that in cova we were resilient We were you and I think resilience Really matters and unity of purpose and action At EU level helped us in the pandemic and indeed to face Crisis that may emerge in the future I think we need to build on that resilience I know that what's fascinating for me is that the message from cova is supply chains need to be looked at very forensically If you looked at the pharmaceutical supply chain, I was looking at this while I was still in the european parliament On the environment committee before cova we had we were looking in the office at how vulnerable we were for some product lines And then that vulnerability really emerged when the pandemic hit So I do think that we need to be resilient I think what the Irish government did after the brexit vote where it said to companies Examine your supply chain from end to end see where there are brexit vulnerabilities And take action And I think we need that same thought process and resilience when it comes to looking to the future Because growth will continue throughout europe this year. It will be at a lower rate Because of the uncertainties that I've just spoken about So today we're talking about SMEs And the single market and what I want to do is to urge you to take full advantage of the opportunities That the eu single market has to offer Irish businesses And one of the things that prevents us, I think from thinking about opportunities is we think across border as opposed to single market I'm actually trying to get my own colleagues to stop using the word across border because the european union is a single market And I think that does define how you think About working across the single market and it's true also of the area of finance Which is my particular area of responsibility So we've gotten to the past 50 years and we look to the present and what about the future and I think this title europe is our future Is true because we are part we're strong in europe and I think brexit has perhaps strengthened the Irish identity In the european union Everything is absolutely overshadowed by russia's illegal invasion of ukraine Because it goes against everything we stand for in europe and I think here in ireland and in my role as financial services commissioner I get to implement all of these Sanctions that we have put Proposed and they've been adopted by the member states six packages very deep very impactful on the russian economy But we're also being very open and saying that there are impacts for the european union as well But these are the choices and challenges we make to defend the right of a sovereign country To defend their territory and to maintain their independence The sanctions on russia will deepen over time and I think particularly when it comes to the sanctioning of technologies That they will need to reinvest in their areas This will have an impact and indeed these sanctions on finance are also impactful There's been huge demand on the financial sector and indeed all sectors to make sure they comply What's been interesting from my side is that there is an element where companies are making their own decisions about de-risking So even where they're not sanctioned they're deciding themselves to move away from russia for moral and ethical reasons And i'm impressed by that, but also i'm very impressed by the commitment of member states to fully Implement the sanctions that we have passed through Inflation is a reality. We know energy and food prices are increasing and commodity markets are extremely volatile So this global picture is less clear than the skies outside the university today Fascinating what has happened in the labour market and i'm sure in this room You are aware of the labour market I think the expectation was that there would be unemployment after covid Whereas now we have companies from ireland to germany saying we actually have full order books And we have problems with finding labour and we problems with finding raw materials and supply chains So different problems have emerged than perhaps we would have anticipated And of course when there's a loss of purchasing power for consumers and higher costs for businesses That impacts confidence both amongst consumers and indeed businesses and i've mentioned brexit and it is still Prevails and maybe we will mention that in our conversation So if you look to where we are for the future I think crisis strength in europe covid has proved that other things have as well If you look at how we will prevail Here in ireland the economy is expected to keep going so by 5.4 percent this year And 4.4 percent next year our exports are expected to remain good and help drive growth We know the sectors involved pharmaceuticals medical devices ict There have been you know done very well since the pandemic and overall the outlook remains bright for ireish businesses and the economy When i focus then on ireish sms in my view you are all in a very good place with strong fundamentals ireland scores highly in international rankings for its regulatory environment for businesses And we have good research capacity and strong capability in innovation And i think on that point that's where Universities and research research centers come in There are strong links between business and research universities like limrick who are hosting us today and of course ia and enterprise ireland And sms benefit from the government's support for improving skills Now that's not to say that i overlook the difficulties and i'm sure many of you in the room would be able to point to some of those Because many of the sectors that are in the sms cluster were the worst affected by the pandemic and i'm thinking of tourism and hospitality The central bank of ireland found that a quarter of sms continued to experience supply chain issues But in the recovery we should look at the huge amount of untapped potential in european trade for ireish sms And there is a figure that sticks out in my mind because according to the oecd Only about six percent of ireish sms directly trade the word is across border, but directly trade in the single market And this is much less than in other eu member states So that's a challenge, but it also means that there is an opportunity for ireish sms in europe's single market Because what it means is that across the 27 member states you trade freely No customs checks no tariffs no different standards businesses of all sizes including sms Can access a massive market of more than 440 million people And it goes far beyond what a free trade agreement can offer So i'm sure some of you here will have become familiar sadly with the cost hassle and paperwork involved in trade With united kingdom because they chose to leave the single market and the customs unit And while i find it hard to find any brexit bonuses The one thing that i think it did Was remind us of what the single market is and how important it is that we are part of it But it also should tell us what we have been part of for the past 50 years and we helped to create that single market Now the uk is still an important market But the population is six and a half times in europe the size of the uk's population So there is a lot of potential for diversification for irish businesses towards the single market And there's an opportunity for many irish sms that haven't yet looked at tapping into the market Which is right on our doorstep and then if you look at the eurozone, which is 19 countries We share a common currency and indeed next january croatia will join so there will be 20 And that also makes it easier to trade because you don't have costs involved in currency exchange Some companies indeed many based in ireland have already reached the benefits of the single market and to this point Leo you preempted my comment that multinationals who see the benefits of ireland and the educated workforce and the business friendly environment Based themselves here to access the rest of the single market So we need that same focus within our sme community And again enterprise ireland is doing really important and valuable work in this area A wide range of supports and offer to irish businesses And sms who want to export to the rest of the world, but I can if I can also mention joe hennigan I'm not sure if he's in the room with us, but I just did a small hi joe. This is one of the young entrepreneurs That I had the opportunity to to me who came up with an interesting and really good idea around receipts And how you get rid of them. I said to joe, but I don't think he'll mind me saying it again There is even younger looking than I thought he was which I think is absolutely fantastic That we have so many young able Citizens of this country I meet them when they come to me on interns and I say to them hand on heart I would never have got to where they are I wouldn't get in the door when I was their age, but we really have a fantastic A cohort of students and interns and I applaud them for the work you do So best of luck joe to You in your business and please do as your mother said finish your course as a mother I'm allowed to say that so I hope you don't mind me doing that But I think you know your idea is speaks to the reality of what we're talking about the whole vision of europe is around digital and green And I think your project speaks to that so so good. Look with it So look, I'm also aware That you know companies it isn't just about taking a big leap forward and looking at the opportunities That are on offer The truth is europe has some work to do to make the single market work as well as it can for all types of businesses One thing i'm acutely aware of is that in my area of finance. We don't have a single market for capital yet It's part of the treaty And we will get there and my job over the next whatever's left of my mandate is to make sure that that happens So it's incremental, but it will happen. But if you look at policies like innovation So here we need entrepreneurs and innovative companies in europe. That's just speaks to reality Especially around the transition that i've just mentioned so that answer if you like the innovation should answer questions that are there Like what do you do with all the paper around receipts? Is there a better way to handle that more efficient? And how do you answer that with Technology we're doing very well when it comes to startups in europe about a third of global capital invested in early funding Rounds goes to european startups and that's about the same as happens in the united states sometimes we don't appreciate that Now however, and this is where we run into challenges when it comes to scaling up for companies that want to grow and expand We do lag behind the us and china on funding The commission has just released a new european innovation agenda And this is about making sure that europe is at the For front of the new wave of innovation so-called deep tech And that's about using science and research to develop tangible solutions to the big global challenges that we face And here we want to help talented people develop those solutions bring them to market and to expand their business A big piece of that puzzle involves access to finance My area of responsibility but access for all sizes of companies at all stages of growth So capital markets union is a really big piece of my work here We're we're deepening and developing a single market for capital We know that the flow of capital around the single market is not complete And we know what we need to do to get there And what we're trying to achieve is that companies have opportunities to access finance from different sources and not just bank finance um european capital markets would benefit from being more Transparent and allowing information to flow So that companies wherever you're located can have access to finance So one of our proposals and it's in play already is to create a european single access point So we want to gather together in a single point financial and sustainability related information about companies in one place Online and easy to access so this one stop shop gives more visibility both to investors and companies who need investments And once this is up and running it will help I believe put Irish SMEs on the radar of EU and international investors another issue we are tackling is Making sure that the right type of finance is available to companies again regardless of their size And particularly at the scale up part of their development If we look at equity Like venture capital and corporate bonds these play only a minor role compared to what's happening in other international economies And yet these other sources of financing are vital to help companies face specific financial needs and challenges Equity is better placed than debt to finance innovation Innovative companies particularly startups and SMEs It's better for the long-term investments that we need for this transition to a more sustainable economy and society And the broad financing by bank loans makes companies more vulnerable to shocks So really important that we have these alternative forms of financing and that they become more readily available I've mentioned some of the work we're doing in the commission around this another piece of work Is to address the tax bias that disadvantages equity financing So right now the interest that companies pay on debt is tax deductible But their costs on equity are not and this makes the cost of equity higher than the cost of debt So just in may we made a proposal around an EUI debt equity bias reduction allowance Which will address that and we will also later this year propose a listing act And essentially this is to make it easier and cheaper for companies particularly smaller ones to access public markets The listing act will simplify requirements listing requirements reduce costs and increase legal certainty for issuers It will streamline the process of listing and make requirements and companies more proportionate to their size So that should mean that small companies will have less demanding requirements If they want to list and finally just a mention of our SME IPO fund Which the commission is developing together with the european investment fund And this fund is To help companies on their way to a public listing It's a work in progress, but I believe it will be an important part of our overall work around financing So just let me conclude with where I started really think single market not across border. I think that's really important There are vast opportunities I know that enterprise Ireland is part of helping you on that journey And really to see what those opportunities are I think the fact that the room is full today is really great because it means you are all interested in Seizing the chances and opportunities that are there and using the expertise of enterprise Ireland Including enterprise Ireland market advisors And I think they'll be sitting on the sexual panels, which will be quite forensic in terms of what is available So the breakout sessions is where the real work will start. My presence here today was I think important I'm flying to Brussels later, but I think it's really important that I hear as well What SMEs are thinking and talking about This is a challenging time for the european union, but you know, we've dealt with other challenges Later this week. We will unveil more work on the energy insecurity reality that we face And I think it's been a wake-up call for us A bit like the pharmaceutical supply chain. I think for all our development and our strength and we are a strong Union of 27 Partly built on foundations that are not that strong What we can strengthen those foundations around energy by looking elsewhere by saving energy and don't underestimate that by energy efficiency But particularly and this country has an advantage when it comes to wind energy Particularly by investing in renewables And that's not just about access to finance to fund all of those But making sure that we remove the blockages in our planning systems across europe Which hinder much needed development, not least in the renewable energy sector So I look forward now to a chat with dan and thank you for your attention, particularly the limerick people I looked in your eyes and you stayed awake. So really appreciate that. Thank you Thank you commissioners. So look, we've time for some q&a if you could just put your hand up to indicate An interest. Let me know, uh, but let me kick off Commission you mentioned this issue of supply chains for decades European companies have been facing more competition from places further revealed But companies now are really worried about these long supply chains. We've seen what happened with russia during the pandemic And deteriorating relations with china countries companies are more and more worried about these long supply chains Does that mean that irish companies could look to europe and say where are those companies that are looking to shorten supply chains? Like could that be a small Opportunity could it be a big opportunity for irish companies? Well on that point The answer is yes, because that's where the opportunities are But I really want to stress one thing that I didn't mention in my opening remarks We talk in europe at open strategic economy and I think for the irish economy The open piece is really important because we trade and have always done so small economy big traders But a bit like I mentioned in relation to brexit, you know Sometimes the obvious is not seen because you're you're just on a role as a company or a business And how many of us have the time to stand back and say now just check everything here from a to z and backwards Does it function well? And if something went went wrong with one component or one location How would your company be fixed? And I think what companies are finding is that their trust In the system the supply chains that just in time delivery Was fragmented and fractured because of covet But now also because of energy and security raw material supplies And also political stability in some regions So I would imagine and maybe the room can can enlighten me that companies are looking Not only internally but perhaps to the point that dan makes looking in europe to see what sectors So if you start with a sectoral approach first, what sectors are looking to diversify Their suppliers and could your company be part of that because more and more I don't think any company will go back to having one source only It will be a diversified supply chain So in case there are problems with with specific regions So that's a factor on the strategic autonomy piece because some would say well europe should you know Wrap itself around each other and that to me is not the future I think the future of europe is open strategic autonomy where we're no no longer naive Around certain elements, which are core energy is core And maybe a last point unless we don't get a chance to speak about it. We either you know, you you know Get ourselves weighed down by the challenges of today or we see the opportunities and energy Opportunities are there renewables. We have to anyway because of climate change that we're now sweltering under today We have to change our energy mix. We need to get away from fossil fuels We may well be forced to get away from Russian fossil fuels more quickly It just means we have to adapt and react more rapidly Europe is often accused of being slow and I've been through the process since my time in the european parliament But you know when it comes to a point where you need rapid action europe can be very fast too I think maybe a lot of people might have been partying or Drying their sorrows last night the questions are a bit slow to come But let me ask you another one in terms of funding for SMEs Obviously that's something very much party party your remit Has there been much progress in terms of Lowering cost of borrowing for small companies getting access to finance that you know people here are looking for often to get into Exploit the single market to a greater extent Well, I have to say when I speak to irish businesses and citizens they wonder why the interest rates are high slightly higher in ireland than across europe and of course that is a legacy of The horror of the financial crash and there's a lot of discussion around that It isn't something that I control. That's a central bank issue When I mentioned equity markets and access to and listing I think that's also a mindset change because many SMEs don't want to do that They want to keep the the business and that's fine if you can get access through banks I would be interested in hearing because I gather that there's now because of the uncertainty and confidence maybe a little bit dented Because of the circumstance that we find ourselves that there's a reluctance maybe to borrow One of the things that has fascinated me Since during covid we had anticipated a higher rate of non performing loans We were preparing for that and we haven't seen that and I think that speaks to maybe the fact that Member states and the ecb reacted appropriately to what was a seismic shock to the system by making sure we hadn't collapsed So supports were proper properly done. We have the rollout of the next generation eu funds. So on sme financing We are doing some work. I've mentioned parts of it But there may well be a hesitancy as well around uncertainty. I think this week there will be dcb will be making some announcements So it's how people I suppose if your markets are strong you can afford to invest Where I think confidence matters and I think that's why this event is important that you could become way down with All that is wrong, but the world keeps turning and there are opportunities there for resilient companies Who know and are focused and are looking to have a future a last comment around sustainability I'm doing an awful lot of work on sustainable finance And sometimes smas feel they're not part of that conversation So two messages what I've said to the the large corporates who have the resources to do all this transition towards this more Green and sustainable future. They have a duty of care for the sms and their supply chain to help Not force are not making difficult. I think that's very important and and to say that a lot of our work You know it's quite focused on trying to define what is sustainable through taxonomies and other elements because the financial industry wanted But companies regardless of your size if you're not looking at those issues around green and sustainable Then there isn't a future because the future of Europe, which is what we're discussing here is very much focused around sustainability and digital although having said that this War in Ukraine has seen some member states reopen coal power plants out of concerns around energy insecurity maybe this energy issue will Pull us back from ideology around what we need to do and focus on pragmatism and reality So we don't want to go back to coal. It's the worst Um, but we see Our other countries who are doing that out of they say necessity Which means we need to ramp up all the work around renewables Great, we've got a couple of questions here, but I would say the commissioner as she mentioned as a flight back to Brussels So if you want to get a question in uh, we do have a comment time gentlemen here Thanks very much. Um Tom O'Callaghan here. I I'm pat finder for enterprise Ireland in Ukraine until a few months ago And I'm also working on USA projects in Ukraine um there's specifically with Ukraine that there's going to be a lot of focus on on rebuilding and and construction projects and particularly on supply chain at the moment But one area that's maybe overlooked commissioner is the whole area of Technology so they're they're everyone's looking at these kind of big bricks and mortar infrastructure projects There's probably a role for SMEs and technology to provide a lot of the solutions needed But a big issue at the moment is risk management insurance and underwriting that risk Is the only thing that can be done from a european union perspective to Facilitate what I would say innovative SMEs who through a technology solution Can solve many of the issues we're facing at the moment for a fraction of the cost and in a fraction of that time Well, yeah, please. Okay. Um the the answer I don't have one directly now But you've given me food for thought Because then we are going to have to look at um, it's almost seems counterintuitive to talk about rebuilding Ukraine But we're still seeing the horrors The death and the destruction, but it will come So I certainly will bring that back around What could we do to support SMEs who could get involved on technology generally? I know that some of the banks who are in Ukraine managed to get all their information on the cloud before the worst happened and their Employees are working from wherever they are now located and providing Banking and financial services still so tom I take up that thought and I've a colleague with me paul if you would exchange Cards that would have thank you One here Hi there. So Daniel Ford Atlanta therapeutics. We're a growing medical device company I was reading an interesting report lately by another company with limber connections and stripe who surveyed their customers in europe Um about the challenges that they saw selling across the single market And what really came out from that study and that resonated very closely with ourselves is that the regulatory framework in europe could be quite a challenge Particularly for small and growing organizations that have Find out resources as you say, you know, improving access to capital, but at the same time find out resources And I suppose the question is really, you know, how do we make sure that we're balancing that regulatory framework with the needs of industry along with the needs of consumers and engineers Okay, I was involved in the legislation on medical devices Which came out of a crisis and then I think there are some concerns in our right implementation So I I still follow that quite closely. So I take on board your comment So two things first of all, um, we hear this regularly And yet it's interesting that the rest of the world tends to follow european standards Whether it's in food security or medical devices or insurance and even the the uk will still have solvency too They might modify but not dramatically How do we do that? I suppose the only way we can be aware of where regulation is a problem is feedback So that comes from these rooms Equally, some people talk about a problem, but don't communicate it at a time when it's best, you know, communicated I try and bring issues that are problematic to colleagues who are responsible for them So if there are specific points around that we can certainly direct you towards but regulation For example, medical devices is a regulation. It's pan-european SMEs maybe in the startup phase, but I'm sure that can be helped through enterprise Ireland so that you can If I cut through some of this but compliance and having strong regulation is also part of a strong business community so When I look to what the uk are doing, I know there's a minister for brexit opportunities And they're going to tear up rules and whatever, but no society or economy can operate without strong rules The process of legislation in europe is complex So I used to always say when I was still in the european parliament People will come to me when the final vote has been taken like maybe a year or a year and a half after we started the process So to the organizations and indeed to your representatives get in there early and stick with it so that you follow the process But but effective regulation matters We've done something for example on crypto recently what we're the first to do it We on sustainable finance were leading as well People globally would say you're doing too much. You're doing it too fast But they generally want to know what we're doing how we're doing it and to some extent being being leaders in this area It's not without its problems because we can make the mistakes as well as get the success stories So if there are specific issues Again, I could feed them into our process and be happy to do that around your sector We've gone over time But we we have to take the exploit the opportunity of having your commission and while we're here So we'll take one more if that's okay with you. Well, I think I'm meeting the president next So I'm in the president's hands so really short Thank you very much. Save yourself on Magnus monitors or IOT startup company in Galway Commissioner the question I have is And I think you may have a lot of influence over this is to do with sepa Cash flow is the lifeblood of small and medium-sized companies And sepa has been successfully implemented throughout the EU's Since I think 2008 and up to But the one thing is our two big pillar banks here have refused to implement the what I call instant sepa So I can deal with a company in France And they can trade or send 100 000 euros in 10 seconds if I have a sepa Extended sepa account or accelerated one in France But I have to wait two days three days to get the money here in Ireland and within Ireland I'm also waiting two or three days to get money transferred from one Irish bank account to another in typically between BOI and back of Ireland And given this is really really critical Like last year the two banks tried to Create a system with the central bank where they were going to invent their own extended sepa And I think it got pushed back But I was just wondering is there anything you have influence over to change this because we're one of the few core EU zone or euro zone countries that doesn't have Instant sepa capability in in Europe to the best of my knowledge Well on this I can be very definite We will have to legislate on this because we don't have instant payments So other enterprise across your wood of problems And I hadn't realized but I'm glad of the information you provided me with in great detail here Paul, I don't know whether it's the end of this year early next year We are doing something on is it early next year on instant payments because they should we should have it by now the technology it provides for it And if we wait We predicted that if we were to wait and do nothing just to let it happen organically it would take over 10 years And cash flow matters to businesses So I think it's a good note to end on is that we are doing something on it And we've taken good note of the points that you've made great really great great one to end on so A round of applause for the commissioner, please