 Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Got butyrate? Well, this stuff is actually that good. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know I love this gut health-boosting postbiotic called butyrate. In my upcoming book, Unlocking the Keto Code, I'll reveal how butyrate is quite the rock star for many reasons, including optimizing your mitochondrial function. And my special guest today, John Ede, Chief Science Officer and co-founder of Pendulum, is also a big butyrate fan. In fact, he's built a career around it by researching genomic technology and the microbiome for over two decades. Today he's going to give us a fascinating 411 on all things butyrate. So stay tuned because we'll also discuss why this special postbiotic is so essential for wellness and how to make sure your body produces enough of it so you live a long, healthy life. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the Dr. Gundy podcast. John, it's nice to meet you. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me on. I'm very excited. So I'm really excited to talk to you all about butyrate, which is one of my favorite postbiotics. So can you give us a brief overview of your research over the past two decades? Certainly. And actually, let me first start maybe with framing it with a question. What makes progress in biology and medicine hard? I believe that it's because the purely reductionist approach doesn't work there. Biology is one of those areas where if you split the system down, if you try and reduce it to a simpler part, the magic disappears. Or worse, the thing you're looking at is not really the phenomena that's relevant at the full complexity. So a lot of the work that I've been involved in is on the technology side. How to create cutting edge technology that allows you front row seats that doesn't disturb the show. And I've oscillated between the technology aspect and the biological questions of interest. So my background is in applied physics. I got my undergrad at Cornell, PhD at University of Illinois of Venice, Champaign and postdoc at Harvard. And my first job I joined a startup, which then subsequently went public, that was revolutionizing the way DNA sequencing was being done. Where literally we were watching the DNA polymerase, the little copying machine that's in all of our cells as it was putting each of the bases in, exactly. And then it turns out that this was actually pretty critical for our next leap, which was to go into the microbiome because the complexity of the microbiome requires kind of this higher resolution way of looking at things. And so this is where I met Colleen and Jim, and we founded Pendulum. And for the last decade or so we've been creating, characterizing and producing microbiome-based health solutions. So a lot of, I think you, you talk and a lot of us talk about the microbiome being considered, being a garden. And we should think about pre and pro and postbiotics in this garden setting. Explain that for everybody listening and watching. Definitely. I really like the garden analogy because I think it flows nicely to explain all three of those parts. So in the garden analogy, the plants are the probiotics. And then the soil and nutrients and sun and water would be the prebiotics that feed the plants. And then the all important postbiotics are the fruit and vegetables that those plants produce. And that that then nourishes you and creates a vibrant ecosystem. And, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but for many, many, many years, really up until recently, we had no idea that this microbiome number one even existed. And number two was actually producing, in your analogy, fruits and vegetables. So postbiotics are actually a rather recent discovery. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I mean, exactly to your point, I mean, it's actually astonishing to me that we've gotten as far as we have without recognizing the importance of the microbiome. And I think now we're gonna kind of kick ourselves looking back and say like, how, how is it possible that something that has that this incredible chemistry capacity could have been overlooked for so long? So when did you first come to learn about pre and postbiotics? Did you I mean, did you stumble on this coming coming from a genomic background or No, exactly. I mean, so I'm going to be honest to say, like the the the term postbiotic, I think she only heard about it recently. So I myself also of going to be on kind of the latest terminology for it. But now we've been referring to it as metabolites. And it was, you know, from our perspective, kind of the central launching point. So we started with the knowledge of what metabolite do we want? What's the thing that seems to differentiate between healthy and disease? And from their work backwards, kind of the garden analogy is, we need more tomato, you know, we need to produce more tomatoes, we need more tomato plants, what kind of varieties of tomato plants to where we're going to have. And then from there, pairing it with the right prebiotics that are going to work well to nourish those particular strains. So that brings us to, I guess, one of your my favorite subjects, butyrate. So there, what, there's lots of postbiotics, and we could talk about all of them. There's probably 10 more that have been discovered today while you and I are talking. But what, what intrigued, what intrigues you, what intrigued you about butyrate? Well, what's amazing about butyrate is, I mean, it's the currency of the gut. It's literally the fuel for the colonocytes for the for the gut cells. But for us, what was specifically amazing is that it seemed correlated, you know, low amounts of it seemed to be correlated with metabolic syndrome. So we were seeing that there was a reduced amount of butyrate and of the strains that produce it in those that suffered from diabetes. And so that's, that's what kind of triggered the entire research program that we started. So to create a formulation that could restore that, and then couple that formulation with a necessary prebiotic to enable that to grow and flourish when when given. So let's let's back up for a second, because I've, I've written about, you know, butyrate being really essential fuel for the lining of the gut, the colonocytes. But most people kind of say, wait a minute, blood feeds these guys, and they get all their nourishment from blood. But what what you're saying is no, no, no, these guys are absolutely dependent on a short chain fatty acid for their fuel. Right? That's, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And there are various studies showing that, you know, kind of to have the health of your lining be there that that nourishment needs to be there at significant quantities. So it's important to, to, to create the ecosystem that enables that supply to be high enough. Because I think what ends up happening is that, you know, that ecosystem can be fragile, depending on your diet and other assaults on it that can result in a much more kind of diminished version of that. Yeah. So in your research, is there a way to actually measure how much butyrate production that we produce or in animal produces, right? So yeah, just earlier this month, we published a study in BMC microbiology, where we measure butyrate, both in the stool and in plasma. And we demonstrated that participants, you know, that received PGC had increased levels of butyrate, significant actually to the order of 20 to 40% increase. And so we believe this is the first demonstration of a probiotic intervention, that is able to increase the levels and see that, not just in stool, but in plasma directly. And I might add that, you know, as much as potentially 10% of all our energy production in us can come from butyrate. So it's it's not a marginal player. No, absolutely, you're absolutely right. Okay. So good question. How would someone know if they're making butyrate or not? That's a great question. I would say that our focus was on the effect that that had the reduced amount of butyrate on your body, your body's ability to handle blood glucose spikes. So we were measuring its effect using, you know, traditional kind of A1C measures, but also kind of the more modern continuous glucose monitors. So you can actually watch them with a specific meal and watch it for the same foods that you had a different level of spike, you know, before and after. But I can I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on this, because I know that you've you've seen a wider variety of effects in the clinical setting. Yeah, what I think most people I don't think can feel the effect of butyrate, I don't think they go, Oh, my gosh, I'm really low on butyrate today. I need to, you know, have some more have some more fiber in my diet today. I guess that's what I was going to get at, or you can't, you can't fart and smell the butyrate, for example. Right, right. No, no, exactly right. It's not something that you you would be able to tell kind of intrinsically, this is this part of this complexity, you would need some downstream indicator. And I can imagine that that butyrate will will be shown to have other roles. And so once people make that connection to some other measurable clinical quantity, then then that will also be trackable. Gotcha. So our speaking of which, are there foods that we should be eating that can stimulate butyrate production? Absolutely. And I mean, our initial focus on this was very much on the formulation itself, what would be good to couple with it, what prebiotic would work well there and we tested a variety and landed on inulin, which is a fiber. But we also we know that there's kind of a holistic view of health and how you'd move it forward, besides taking particular formulation. So our nutritionist, for example, ask, you know, tell people that they should attempt to get kind of an overall increase in fiber intake, generally, that that in and of itself has been shown to to help on a number of fronts and to help increase the chances of though, these particular set of strains and future producing strains to thrive in the garden. So yeah, I'm a big fan of inulin and inulin containing vegetables back. I just had a big radicchio and other chicory vegetable salad last night. And the chicory family is just loaded with inulin, Jerusalem artichokes, some people call them sun chokes or great stores. So it's it's easier than a lot of people think to get inulin. And you can get it in powder form. It has a it does have a you know, slight sweet taste, and you can actually use it as a sweetener. So yeah, yeah. Okay, most people I think now know that the word butter actually comes from butyrate. Because there is a little butyric acid in butter. So everybody I'm sure wonders, should we be eating a stick of butter every day, like some of my colleagues and health influencing to say? Well, that sounds sure sounds delicious. Well, I would say for the for the fact that we were after they are very specific cells in specific areas of the GI that you need to get the butyrate to. These are these L cells, because that would then start the cascade of signaling to prepare your body for the oncoming glucose load. And I'm going to steal an analogy that co founder Colleen came up with a really like, which is if you had a million dollars in a suitcase, and you needed to get it to a specific place in order to get a project started clinic or something. And would you a deliver the suitcase directly where it needs to go, or be open the suitcase up somewhere along the road and call the person up and say, Hey, it's somewhere here, you know, go and collect it. This is similar to the situation with butyrate because it's it in essence, it is utilized everywhere in the GI. So if you needed to get to a specific location to do a very specific action, you need to find a way to deliver it there. And that's the power of the strains. So the the probiotic strains in essence are like a white glove delivery service. And so this gets around the problem that, for example, a butyrate supplement would also have. Yeah. Yeah, I think people are probably unaware that you you can buy butyrate as a supplement. But most of us working in this field have been very unimpressed with the delivery. How's that? Yeah. No, exactly. Because that aspect of the problem is not trivial at all. So this comes back to that. Everything about the complexity of biology, you can know that a particular molecule is really great. But unless it's in the right place at the right time, an effect that could otherwise be very helpful might dissipate entirely. So how is it? Do you think are your research showing that the butyrate is actually able to modulate metabolism, like, you know, maintain a healthy weight without really trying? Right. Well, we believe that basically, this is the upstream part of something that has been, you know, very well studied. So in the pharmaceutical industry, there's already been great advances on the downstream part of how sugar metabolism is in care, which is with this GLP one pathway. And so we know that your body sends out that hormone to tell your pancreas to take some insulin to take care of this. Interestingly, you know, people hadn't then gone to the next step above that, where did the signaling from the gut come from? And so this is the part that we we travel down is what what is happening in the gut that that initiates the the set of signaling that's going to happen that will then result in glucose control. And so we recognize that, you know, short chain fatty acids specifically butyrate were part of that initial signaling that then helps those L cell tells us else. Hey, release GLP one and tell the rest of the body to get ready. And so and again, you just can't I want to reiterate, you can't just swallow butyrate and tell the body to get ready to handle glucose. No, exactly, because it the connection has to be with these specific cells. And they are concentrated in some parts of the of the GI like near the ilium there. They're all along the GI but there are some areas of concentration. And it's thought that you might have a network of strains that are interacting with and creating this kind of host signaling bacterial signaling back and forth. And so this is one of the ways to attempt to turn on that signaling or make sure to restore it back to kind of the healthy state that it was in. I always like to ask the question, what's in it for the bacteria to do this signaling? In other words, that's a great question. I mean, I think the the the thought is and I mean, certainly kind of my my impression of it is the strains also get a really good part of the deal, they get they get to be a nice environment with a lot of resources kind of flooding their way. And so what's happened over time is as kind of a established a system or a network that that that enables that to work in harmony. And I think this is the part I think that is maybe not as appreciated how much kind of our, you know, us as an organism requires this other ecosystem to function in a healthy fashion. I think, you know, for for the longest time of anything since the moment of the invention of antibiotics, which was an amazing breakthrough for us, I think we've generally thought of, you know, the only good bacteria are dead bacteria, right? And it's now the realization that like, that's couldn't be the furthest thing from the truth. In fact, it's really kind of these pathogenic bacteria are going to the bad apples that give all the rest of them a really bad name. But but you actually generally live quite well and rely on the services provided by the strains, and they in turn rely on you to provide them a home and nutrients and the right ecosystem. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the typical Western diet is not holding up our end in providing these guys what they need to help us. Exactly right. Exactly right. So things that are, you know, processed and high in sugars and fats and very low in fiber. All of those things are contributing to changing that that ecosystem. And in fact, I mean, it's quite natural to imagine, just as you would see kind of in the world around when ecosystem diversity, you know, falls off because of changes in the environment, right? Because you, you change the nutrient landscape or you change the way that it's interacted with. All right, let's go on to my favorite bug, Ackermannsia, Mucinifilla. And congratulations for your whole team and your phenomenal work of capturing this probiotic strain Ackermannsia in a stable pill form. And actually, I tell all my patients about your supplement. And I'm already seeing some really cool things happening with with several of them on their subsequent blood tests. So I also I've been writing about this probiotic my books, but tell the listeners what's so cool about this strain? Great. Yeah, of course. Well, so Ackermannsia holds a very special place in the gut because it's allowed to interact directly with your gut lining. In fact, it utilizes the mucin in your lining as its energy source. And to tie into your earlier question, well, why does why does the body allow that? And the reason is because the postbiotics that Ackermannsia produces are then very helpful, both for you and for the kind of beneficial set of strains that your body would like to flourish near near near the gut lining. So it can be thought of as a keystone species sort of a lynchpin for the health and function of your microbial garden. And, you know, some people associate mucus with oh, runny nose or phlegm. But in fact, mucus in the lining of the gut is probably the most important thing we've got. And I'm interested in it because it actually traps lectins. They are sugar seeking molecules and mucus is muco polysaccharides, lots of sugars. And you know, and I know that the thicker this lining of mucus, the better off we are. That's exactly right. Because then that prevents a whole host of issues, which are to do with kind of a more permeable lining, which allows a lot of things to get across that shouldn't, and then can result in a state of inflammation and other reaction in your body downstream. Yeah, we've, you know, my my interest is in in leaky gut and it's, it is a we have an epidemic of leaky gut, but even Hippocrates 2,500 years ago, said all disease begins in the gut. So, and he didn't have our test to prove it. But he was, he was obviously right. Yeah, no, he nailed it for sure. So, you know, Acromacia has been known about for what 12 years, maybe thereabouts. Yeah, yeah. And it's I've said to anyone who listen, it's been the holy grail of probiotics. Why has it been so difficult to grow this guy, make a shelf stable supplement until now? How'd you guys crack the code? Right? Well, there, there, you know, I would summarize it as there are two major hurdles for scaling it up. One is the fact that it's a strict anaerobic. So that means there's a type of strain that any minute amounts of oxygen are toxic for it. In fact, like, we literally measure it down to parts per million. And so you have to get the get all of your process such that that is removed from the system and from your, you know, production format. The other major issue with it is that it prefers to grow on media that is meat based, not maybe two surprising since normally would have mucin there, but we managed to create a vegetable based media, which can enable production, and especially kind of with the with the regulatory landscape, be able to have a safe production method. Because as I recall, Colleen saying the FDA, because of mad cow disease and prions won't allow you to grow this bug on what it would like to eat. Exactly right. Exactly right. So though those kind of standardized media that that normally would be available in any microbiology lab, you know, because you can for research purposes, no problem, you can grow it in whatever it's happiest and but you know, at from the start, we knew that if we needed to scale this up and have it be commercially viable, then we needed to change it to be able to be just as effectively growing in a vegetable media. So how so how does acrimoncia help your body or help produce butyrate? What what's the mechanism? Yeah. So what we know there's an observed is that it it actually really helps from a cross feeding perspective. So it's kind of where postbotics from one strain essence serve as the prebiotics from the other and vice versa in their link. So acrimoncia appears to be especially synergistic with butyrate producing strains. So it itself doesn't produce butyrate, but it helps your producing strains to flourish. And in fact, we've seen in our own studies in our preclinical study that it actually helps a butyrate producing strain to engraft or stick around and thrive in the garden longer when it's there versus when it's not. We did the plus minus. And additionally, it also produces the short chain fatty acid propionate, which is connected to a number of beneficial health effects similar to butyrate. In fact, there's some thought that it's the ratio of those two that's actually quite important. And so in this strain, I think a lot of people know that a lot of probiotics that we might swallow are actually not normal flora. They're not denizens of our gut. And they I tell people, well, they kind of go on vacation in your gut for a couple of weeks and then they pack up and leave just to use that analogy. But but this acrimoncia is actually the human gut strain, right? Yes, yes, exactly. And it's the one that normally you would have quite a high percentage of it. So if you were to do microbiome profiling after, you know, in stool, you would you would see that it should be in there on its own at a couple of percent, which is pretty amazing, given that there's hundreds to thousands of strains in your in your microbiome in total. But yeah, it's this linchpin strain that is the kind of guardian at the lining. To back up, why why do most of us not have that much acrimoncia? What what's gone wrong? I mean, have we killed it with our antibiotics? Or have we killed it because it has nothing to eat? Or what what's what's the thought process? Well, I think it's probably a combination. I think it's it's a matter of the what you were mentioning earlier, the the type of diet that we have, because that synergistic effect that it has or that that it connects with on the butyric producers, if you do things that reduce that community so you don't need enough fiber, for example, then they don't they're not as much of those those plants out there. So they don't provide the type of things that acrimoncia needs in order for it to thrive as well. So there's there's kind of a complex community. And I think we're only starting to scratch the surface about all the different ways it could go wrong. Got you. Now, one of your products is called glucose control and it has acrimoncia, but it also has other bacteria. And so why did you so that and that was designed from the get go for type two diabetes, right? That's right. That's right. So how did you decide, well, we need more than just acrimoncia to get what we want to have this product help people? Right. Well, regarding the additional ingredients, we basically wanted this formulation to be self self-contained, entirely self-reliance, not not requiring a particular nutrient or other strain when it when it arrives, because, you know, different people taking it might have completely different microbiomes. So the way that we thought about it is, well, we need to have the substrate that would be helpful. So that's why the inland is there. Then we have a bithydote that helps to break down that substrate into acetate, and then that can then be used by the butyric producing strains that are in the formulation to produce butyric. And we included a variety of butyric producing strains to kind of cover the gamut of potential interactions that might be there in different microbiomes. And then, of course, there's acrimoncia, which, as we know, synergistically will interact with those butyric producing strains and is the one that is sort of forming that bridge to to the lining. So altogether, we thought that the full combination enabled you to go from the fiber to the butyrate and to the effect of the signaling in the body that's needed. So you kind of you kind of eliminate the middleman and have every everybody that you need all in in a capsule. And exactly right. And you've proven this to work in a clinical trial in humans. Yes. Yeah. And publish this data. That's right. That's right. And BMJ. This was a couple of years ago now. And that was very exciting for us. So, yeah, I mean, to us, that was one of the key moments is to demonstrate that in a randomized control trial, double blind to show that that effect. Because as you as you know, there are a lot of things which in model systems can look good, but then they don't translate. In fact, if you're one of my favorite quotes that I'm going to steal from our chief medical officer, Orville, he said, you know, mice have been cured of diabetes a hundred times over. And I think that that's exactly the issue is finding a model system that points in our direction, but then demonstrating in people that you're having the intended effect. Yeah, I just recently had two patients who are actually very healthy individuals. But they and they're they're thin, but they they run elevated hemoglobin A1C's higher than I like. Let's put it that way. And have some degree of insulin resistance have elevated insulin and I talk them into trying glucose control and we gave it we gave it two months and both of their hemoglobin A1C's dropped. I think one of them dropped point seven and one of them dropped point six. But interestingly enough, their insulin levels came down into the normal range. And we've been we've been trying a lot of manipulation to get that happen. So this is the only thing that they changed. And so and they were they were delighted to say the to say the least. That's very exciting to hear. And I have to say we are very interested to hear this type of to hear all of the feedback, especially of, you know, what particular parameters moved and over what time frame. This is all part of the thing that we're trying to build infrastructure for to really understand the exact connection between people's responses and different formulations and different effects. Yeah. And I think I've I've I've posted on Instagram that I spent a lot of time in Italy in the south of France. And I I cheat when I'm over there and fully admit. But I and I take in general, I take one of my products from Gundry M.D. Lectin shield, which absorbs lectins. And I take a lot of it and I do very well. So this this past fall, I took some of your shelf stable acrimoncia and I left my lectin shield behind on purpose and I said, OK, we're going to put this to the acid test. And I actually was shocked. I only had maybe a half a day where I, you know, had some bowel issues. But I went two weeks. Absolutely no issues, which which actually it didn't surprise me, but delightfully surprised me because I had no backup system. So that's just, you know, it's an experience of one. But I can tell you what would have happened if I didn't have that and didn't have the lectin shield, it would not have been pleasant for me or my wife. Let's put it that way. No, that's that's that's really great to hear. And I was right that you took the leap so fully. That's that's very impressive. I know it was really dumb in a way. But I said, no, we're going to it's going to do it or it isn't going to do it. And I'm going to have no backup. So nice. And I'm also I'm trying to get most of my leaky gut patients and I got a ton of them to and with autoimmune disease to get on your acrimoncia product. I I have that much initial faith in it and it'll be very interesting. We've just started that trial. It'll be very interesting in the coming months to see if we can hasten the repair of leaky gut because it can be a very slow process. I used to think that I could seal somebody's leaky gut in a couple of weeks. And I was naive. It can sometimes take up to a year to finally eliminate all the markers of leaky gut. But it'll be very it'll be very exciting to see if this guy is going to hasten that. Do you have any any thoughts or your work in your clinic patients that this is going to have an effect on leaky gut? Well, I would say that it's really early days there. And it's it's this kind of feedback that we're we're really interested in making sure that we call it and bring back and think through what might be standardized ways for us to observe this so that we can really track exactly where different people are getting the benefit. So so now so you have a shelf stable acrimoncium and then you have glucose control is so is glucose control the the Ferrari of the line and the high perform the high performance product? Or I mean, should you just be a type two diabetic to get the benefit of glucose control? Or, you know, who should take what? Well, right. So I would say if you've got diabetes, definitely, PGC, I think glucose control is the right product for you. The thinking of it as the Ferrari, I think, you know, then then then, I don't know, then that kind of maybe leaves acrimoncium because I also like to think of that as a Ferrari, too. I think it's just maybe different different for different things. It's the entry level model. Right. I mean, I think the main thing is that we're just starting this journey of getting all the the information in place and PGC has basically this double blind clinical trial behind it. And as we build up more of these studies going forward and I think other formulations will also be able to make some more specific recommendations. Gotcha. So what's what's next on the horizon in microbiome advancement pendulum? I hear there's a new product in the pipeline. Yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, there is. We've been working for a couple of years now with Dr. Pasarica, who heads up gastroenterology at Johns Hopkins. He has a preclinical model where he's tested some of our formulations on. He's been very excited by the results. And so in the next couple of months, we were planning on releasing a gut product and it would involve formulations, but also kind of this feedback loop to data so that we better understand who different formulations are working for. So it was like kind of a personalized approach because you can imagine somebody that suffers from bloating might not need quite the same set of strains as somebody that suffers from GI from say maybe a pain aspect. Right. And you think that you can actually kind of custom formulate these products for those needs? Well, we think that there can potentially be a couple of key areas. So maybe those that suffer from loose bowels versus those kinds of things. And so then there may be just one specific type of formulation that works best in those scenarios. Something we haven't touched on but is of interest to a lot of researchers, including myself and Dr. Daniel Amon is the influence of the gut microbiome on mental health. And we're I think with each passing year, we're realizing that much of what we used to call mental health disease isn't a disease, but it's a disturbance of our microbiome. Is that anything in the future that pendulum is going to look into? Or who knows? Yeah, I mean, it's that one has been. I mean, the gut brain part is very exciting. And I think that that has come along so fast in the last couple of years. It isn't currently on our kind of near term horizon, but we've penciled in some kind of early thoughts on it. So, you know, I I wouldn't, you know, put a crystal ball on exactly where that will be in a few years, except to say that I'm sure that that area is going to grow. Yeah, I mean, it makes so much sense with with what we're learning about how these how these gut buddies really kind of control everything about us. It just makes sense. Yeah, exactly. Most most humans don't like the thought that little one cell organisms might have that much control over over us, but we just have to get over it. I mean, absolutely. It's this thing of like, yeah, expanding your view. I like to think of it of your yourself as being more of a super organism, right? Like there's you're more than just the the cells that share exactly the DNA with you. You're you're actually a full ecosystem and that's a good thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. All right, well, it's been great having you on the program. You, I understand, have a special 20 percent offer for our audience with the code gunnery for your product. Can you tell me how it works? Yes, anybody who uses the code gunnery will will get that 20 percent off. And then, of course, everybody is it can feel free to visit our website, pendulumlife.com. We can find out about our latest research and any of our products and services. Yeah, it's a fun website. I send all my patients to it. I actually pull it up in my office and shove it in their face. So they have no choice but but to hear about you and your fine company, I'm that impressed. And well, we're very pleased to hear that. Especially pleased to hear about the positive effects that their products are having. This is for us, obviously, our key mission. All right. Well, thanks again for joining us and folks, pendulumlife.com. That's where to go and use code gunnery at checkout for 20 percent off. All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you. OK, it's time for our audience question. B par 23 from Instagram asks, how is olive oil any different from sesame oil? Can you explain what attributes of sesame oil block LPS is that olive oil doesn't have? Well, it turns out that, of course, olive oil is a whole lot different than sesame oil. They have total different fatty structures. But unfortunately, research has shown that LPSs, those lipopolysaccharides, can't travel on chylomicrons, which is how almost all fats are transported across the gut wall. And LPSs can hop, hitch a ride on chylomicrons to sneak across the gut barrier. Now, olive oil is carried with chylomicrons across the gut wall, as is sesame oil. The only one that isn't carried across, interestingly enough, are medium chain triglycerides, MCTs. They are not transported with chylomicrons. And so, believe it or not, LPSs can't hop on MCTs. But research, human research shows that taking sesame oil blocks the inflammatory effect of LPSs. In fact, a very good human trial shows that with people with hypertension, taking two tablespoons of sesame oil a day actually lowers their blood pressure dramatically and stomping taking the sesame oil makes their blood pressure go back up, a human trial. So it's not so much that both could carry LPSs across, but sesame oil signals a blockade by our immune system to not be interested in LPSs when sesame oil is around. So that's how it works. All right, review of the week is Hayes Reeve from Apple Podcast. Hope I got that right. Save my life, exclamation point. I have suffered from multiple autoimmune issues for my whole life. When I was a child, they went on diagnosed and it was just assumed the pain I felt was from various injuries from sports. I did a primal diet nine years ago and really healed myself. I was amazed at the impact that food has on health. Unfortunately, being a vegetarian, the amount of time and effort needed to sustain wasn't possible with two small children. I never forgot the healing power of food though. Three children later and 50 pounds overweight, I was feeling sicker than ever. I knew something had to change and I found Dr. G. Six weeks in and I'm already down 18 pounds and feel amazing. My joints are no longer swollen and I have so much energy. Dr. G makes starting and following the plant paradox as a vegetarian or anyone so accessible and quick. I can do it with no stress and I could not be more grateful. Listening to the podcast while food prepping and cooking is now my favorite way to spend my me time. Keep up the great work. Well, thank you very much. You know, I see this in my patients every day and that's why I still see patients six days a week but it's great to hear from someone who, you know, I've not met, I'm not taking care of you to do this on your own and quite frankly we've seen that about 90% of people with autoimmune diseases who embark on the Plant Paradox Program their autoimmune disease goes into remission and it's wonderful to hear from you. So please, if you like what you see write us a note, respond on wherever you get your podcast on iTunes and let us know and hopefully I'll be reading your note and we're doing this because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you. See you next week. Before you go I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.