 Good morning. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, depending on where you are on behalf of the Institute of International and European Affairs. I'd like to only welcome you to today's address by Falka Turk, who is the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. This event is part of the Institute's Global Europe project, which is supported by Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs. The High Commissioner would speak to us for about 15 to 20 minutes, and then we'll go to a Q&A with our audience. First, some housekeeping points. The presentation by the High Commissioner and the Q&A will be on the record. You'll be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen. Please feel free to come in with any comments, questions which occur to you during the event, and we'll try to get to them in the Q&A. Please feel free also to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA. We're also live streaming the discussion, so a very warm welcome to all of you who are joining us via YouTube. I'd now like to introduce the High Commissioner. Falka Turk took up his present role in October of 2022. An Austrian citizen, he holds a doctorate in international law from the University of Vienna and a master of law degree from the University of Linz, and he has published widely on international refugee law and international human rights law. His long and distinguished career has been devoted essentially to advancing universal human rights in various settings. He has held a number of key posts within the UN system, including that of Under Secretary General for Policy in the Executive Office of the UN Secretary General. In fact, he was the Assistant High Commissioner for Refugees at the UNHCR in Geneva from 2015 to 2019. As it happens, I worked closely with Falka when he was in that role and I have the warmest memories from a very fruitful collaboration. The High Commissioner has now, of course, taken up a new and very sensitive and difficult international role for which she is eminently suited. And with that High Commissioner, I'd like to invite you to take the floor. Well, thank you very, very much, first of all, for the invitation and it's great to see you, David, my old friend from our past on a very, very important topic. It was the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants that you so skillfully co-facilitated and I remember it extremely well and I have to say I've always admired your incredible experience when it comes to multilateralism and very thankful for that. Maybe also just before I begin, I have to say when you think of Ireland, in a way, it's almost synonymous with human rights because, of course, one of the second, as you know, the second High Commissioner was Irish, former Irish President Mary Robinson. So I think there is somehow those of us who grew up with human rights in a way know very well how much Ireland, and in particular, one of my predecessors has contributed to the global human rights cause and also with this very vibrant civil society in Ireland, and also the foreign policy of Ireland so much dedicated to human rights and I really want to pay tribute to that at the very beginning. So I'd like to thank you for being able to join you in this webinar, which we know is always there to enrich also public debate on some of the key priorities that Ireland faces and also beyond Ireland, of course. And this comes at a very critical time. We are commemorating the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So I'm really very happy to speak to you how we can rekindle the spirit of that declaration and the world's commitments to advancing human rights. Of course, there's also the 30th anniversary of the Vienna World Conference on human rights. I was in Vienna last week to commemorate that as well because it actually gave birth to this institution that I know represent. I also understand that this webinar or this webinar is joined by participants from different parts of the world, Africa, Middle East, the United States and across Europe so that's incredibly helpful and I know well your institute, but also its reputation for independence and public policy expertise and I very fondly recall the hospitality and may I call it the famous Irish hospitality that you extended to me six years ago when I was with you in person and it was indeed when I was assistant eye commissioner in in your needs here. So let's perhaps go a little bit into the anniversaries that I mentioned. When I came into the into this office about eight months ago. I thought, because of the geopolitical context in which we are, that it's really important to re energize and find a way to build again this consensus that we must have on on on human rights and what better to use that one can make of this is precisely this and we then launched its human rights 75 initiative. So that the universal declarations promises of equality of justice and human rights for all is is really heard loud and clear and translated into practice and we really need countries across all continents to recommit these fundamental promises and to the universality of the human rights regime, because we know the type of challenges the world is facing and I just want to go through some of them and highlight how much this has got to do with the human rights agenda. And of course, threats to peace and security. In Europe, since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, 24 February 20 last year, we have seen every day the images of fighting and of the impact on civilians. And it's just, you know, if you think of how many people actually got this place, either internally or across borders, it's an unimaginable number of 14 million people. Ireland has played, of course, a very important role in welcoming refugees from Ukraine. But this is only one situation of conflict and violence that concern us all and, and especially in Europe we hear a lot about Ukraine but let's not forget there are so many other crisis around the world. That are protracted where you don't see much movement where people suffer enormously and the latest one is indeed Sudan, the devastating fighting that is occurring there that was in the limelight of media attention for a while but in a way, especially diplomats were evacuated somehow it has fallen off off the radar, despite the fact that Sudanese people suffer enormously every day and I was there in, I was it was my first mission as high commissioner and I was there and I was actually quite hopeful when I went in November. Because I saw the resilience of the people and it's devastating to see what what is happening to the country which really is reversing the advances that have been made, but also the hope that the country had and the people of the country had and it's really being held hostage by by the fighting that is taking place between these two men. The second is the catastrophic impact of the trip what we call in the UN the triple planetary crisis climate change pollution and biodiversity loss, which, and you probably saw yesterday the Secretary General was very outspoken about his deep worries about climate action and the lack of climate action. And really no country is spared from the increasing suffering and chaos that these these these double this triple crisis creates. And of course the human rights impact of these threats are massive and, and they will grow worse. If you just imagine in and look into the future if the if the 1.5 degrees centigrade threshold is not met and we have higher rise in temperature that goes if the predictions are correct and if things don't change we would even see an increase in the up to three degrees centigrade by the end of this century. I mean you can just imagine what this means and how the world would look like and it would be absolute chaos, and this directly impact people and as a result of the fulfillment of our human rights. And it's, it's good that the General Assembly last year in July agreed that everyone, regardless of where they live has a right to a clean healthy and sustainable environment. And we will, my office will continue to advocate very much for the rapid and and equitable phase out of fossil fuels and parameters for people that are harmed by climate change and there is a particular issue on climate financing that remains to be addressed. The third challenge is digital artificial intelligence, you have seen, I'm sure, a lot of the reporting around generative AI deep fakes bio engineering, they are moving so quickly that government regulations are really hard pressed to keep up. And the implications for human rights, when it comes even to human agency are enormous. We cannot, we cannot be sure what is true. None of us can feel secure. And secondly, that trust will be profoundly eroded trust in our institutions and also trust in each other. So we need governments to come together with careful regulations that enable the benefits of digital technology but also overcome the digital divide that we see while placing guard rails on its potential harm through a human rights lens. The UN has an important role to play through its convening power, but also through promoting solutions and human rights will be part of the solution in in the way that things are regulated and we have just recently seen in Europe. The AI regulatory process has quite advanced. We now have to see how this goes further but it could potentially be an important model for the world. Fourth area that I want to highlight is the pushback against threats to women's rights and the rights of LGBTIQ plus people. And in order to do to counter this pushback we really need to work on addressing much better the widespread and increasing restrictions on civil society and ceiling space. In many countries around the world, people are not empowered to be present or vocal at the tables where their futures are divided. And this makes all other crises worse. Climate security, tech discrimination and inequalities. So the common language of human rights. And that's what we keep emphasizing is really the compass that points the way out of today's term or it points us to the exit from the pushbacks that deprived people of their rights and freedoms. And it is the path that advances peace, a healthy social contract and shared prosperity. Universality means that all actors need to commit to using that compass. And I really feel strongly that we need to rejuvenate this worldwide consensus on human rights to overcome the many crises that humanity faces. We must anchor our actions in human rights if we are to have any hope of achieving the sustainable development goals by 2030, which is let's not forget less than seven years from now on. And as the climate crisis has shown us we must pay particular attention to how our actions today can protect and advance the fundamental rights of young people and of future generations. The human rights 75 initiative that my office leads in cooperation with many partners focuses on university on progress and engagement and we will have a high level event on 11th and 12th December in Geneva. We look and we hopefully will get pledges from member states but also other actors, including cities businesses civil society and entities with visionary transformative ideas for human rights and future challenges and how that comes together. I hope we can count also on a pledge from Ireland and and from many of you, if you represent institutions here today, when you come and join us in December. And I know how much, especially when it comes to Ireland, how long, how much you have championed the human universal human rights course. Especially also when Ireland was a member of the human rights council and focusing in particular on right to freedom of religion of belief, freedom of expression, civic space, gender equality and the rights of LGBTQ plus people. Ireland also has a long tradition of supporting human rights defenders, including through your humanitarian visa program, but also the grants and assistance that you provide to organizations like civic frontline defenders. And I've recently met the special paternal human rights defenders, Mary Lohler, who is Irish as you know and who is a very, very strong advocate for for this course. When I just come back to when we when I talked about the crisis that we face and I did mention civic space. Let me just come come back to that because in the civic space, we also see the potential for long term transformation. We know that the broadest possible participation in governance at all levels from local to global is more likely to ensure a fair distribution of resources and more effective and legitimate solutions to our challenges. This directly relates also to economic social cultural rights, apart from civil and political and relates to the right to environment. We know that the inclusion of diverse voices, especially those who have been marginalized or who suffer discrimination helps us to address grievances and prevent tensions and conflicts. And as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has pointed out, and I quote, adaptation and mitigation actions that prioritize equity social justice climate justice rights based approaches and inclusivity, lead to more sustainable outcomes and support transformative change and I'm glad that the IPCCC pointed that out because in the past we didn't necessarily see the rights language coming and the human rights lens coming in on these on these issues and it shows where the solution also lies. The same with the 2030 agenda to put it back to put it back on track to end poverty and to create a more inclusive and equitable world. People must be free to come together to exchange information and to voice that. That's it. That's what open societies are all about. But we but in reality, if we analyze many country situations around the world, the space for critical debate for dissent for protest is being heavily restricted. I'm unfortunately also across Europe. At least 50 governments around the world have passed laws that restricts the ability of NGOs to operate or to receive funding from outside or both. In some countries when citizens criticize their leaders, it is easier to blame or an influence that then you address the real issues. So we must act to reverse this trend of shrinking civic space, which does such harm. And I when I already mentioned I was in Vienna last week and there was one member of the panel discussion that I participated in. And what that panel member said struck me that three, actually, when I looked at the panel, there were three out of six people who shared the stage of that panel who were in exile from their homeland. Because they were had been forced to flee simply because they dare to stand up for human rights. And it was humbling to share the stage with these three women who had paid such a high, high price for defending human rights in Afghanistan in Iran and in Russia. And the stories that they told us vividly illustrated the need for an open civic space for the defense of human rights but also forces for society societies to be able to flourish and and foster and to have the creativity and innovation that we need to address the challenges of today. And let's not forget among all these anniversaries that we also have the 25th anniversary of the UN declaration human rights defenders, which for the first time recognize the specific rights to defend human rights. But again, if one looks around the world, human rights defenders are frequently subjected to attack threats, smear campaigns, persecution, because of their peaceful work on behalf of others in particular, also environmentally human rights defenders who are at a particular risk and we have, if you look at these sad statistics more than three were murdered each week over the past decade and that really tells us something. There are campaigns to bring about more equitable and just societies have included efforts to change laws to get people released from prison and to expose corruption. But as Special Rapporteur Mary Lawler reported to the Council earlier this year, their various successes can expose them to even more danger, because they confront. They speak, they speak truth to power they confront powerful vested interests, exposing issues that many would like to be hidden. During this anniversary year, as we discussed how to rejuvenate this commitment to human is universal commitment to human rights. We really need to do much more on civic space and human rights defenders, and we need to connect with communities, and especially with young people who are leading and will leave the struggle for universal human rights in the coming decades. In Ireland, you know very well how vital civil society and the voice of the grassroots are in promoting peace. It was a grassroots initiative that created the Tipperary Peace Convention in 1984 to encourage and acknowledge those who work for peace humanitarian causes and human rights and Ireland's efforts to set up innovative participation formats has really been striking and including on marriage equality, for example. So I can't on all your support to help us build a much stronger human rights ecosystem that is well functioning, but also financially sustainable for all the mechanisms that we have in place. And I count on all of you to promote and protect human rights in all corners of the globe for the next 275 years. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for a really passionate and elegant presentation of your priorities. I mean, I was particularly struck by your emphasis on renewing rejuvenating a kind of universal human rights culture and the phrase you use was using as a compass to help us out of the turmoil in which we find ourselves on many fronts. I think that's a really inspiring and passionate appeal to all of us. And a number of questions have come in. The first one really relates to the Universal Declaration on Human Rights whose 75th anniversary we're celebrating as you mentioned. And if one is to look back, you know, how can one assess the impact that the UDHR has had in real world terms. I know it's a long period, 75 years, but do you think it has lived up to expectations? Are there areas in which it has distinctly fallen short? What is your overall assessment of the impact it has had? Of course, it's always difficult to have a scientific evidence-based view of 75 years, but I think we will all agree that compared to 75 years ago, this declaration has been an incredible inspiration to actually advance the normative framework that is so important in order for member states. And they have agreed to these obligations actually on a wide range of issues, civil, political, economic, social and cultural, but also right environment now and also right to development and not just pay lip service to it but translated into legal obligations. In some parts of the world, and that's really a result of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, in some parts of the world, Europe, for example, you have binding mechanisms where the European Convention on Human Rights with the court can lead to binding judgments. In other, in inter-American system, the same African Union is a similar process, we have a bit more issues in Asia, we don't have this type of mechanism, and of course you have the UN mechanisms, you have the treaty bodies, the 10 treaty bodies that ask states every so often to report back to them on how they are doing and when recommendations are made back to them, it actually leads to changes. The same with the Universal Periodic Review in the context of Human Rights Council, so I think we have established both the normative framework as a result of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and some mechanisms and institutions that ensure that follow up is happening. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has also inspired, let's face it, many social movements for freedoms. It has inspired the entire apartheid struggle, it has inspired decolonization processes, it has inspired feminist movements, the labor movement, but also movements recently of environmental and climate activism. And I think that's what it is, I remember my own stories, I read it, I read for the first time the Universal Declaration of Human Rights when I was 15 and it so resonated with me that I kept that text with me my whole life. And because I found it, and I hope also young people when they read this text will find the language, but also the whole conception of it as something that, you know, we are aware that we are endowed with rights, with dignity that it's not the the almighty business corporation or the almighty state institution that is in front of us but we as individuals strive for larger freedoms that makes us all, you know, prosper and flourish and and I think that's what human rights has done. This doesn't mean at all that there aren't huge challenges and that's important to bear in mind because we we have seen even some questioning of fundamental human rights norms, including torture. I mean look at after 911. Even such fundamental principles were questioned at the time, but it is also important because of the way that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drafted on the historical context in which it was dropped. It has always been a guiding light to do better and to advance the human rights agenda more broadly so I would say without it, we would be, we would be in a very different place. And it would also not define the relationship that we have among ourselves and between ourselves and the institutions of the state. I have a follow up question here from from Leanne Digny who's a researcher at the Institute. She asked, she recalls that invited there were only 58 member states in the UN at the time in 1948. And therefore, inevitably, I suppose it reflected Western values at the time. Do you think there's a case to be made for revising the declaration, so as to bring in a broader representation of the current UN membership. I, first of all, I, I would very much recall the genesis of the UDHR of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and yes it's true it was a finite it was whatever it was 58 countries or so that at the time participated. But they participated from all continents. It wasn't of course all member states because it happened before the decolonization period. This being said, it was the Indian delegate Hansa Metta woman. Many people is associate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with with Eleanor Roosevelt and that's very good because Eleanor Roosevelt did did a lot, but it was actually Hansa Metta who the Indian delegate who put forward the notion that it is about human rights and not rights of men, because she wanted to really make sure that it's, you know, it's clear that this is, this is not about. I mean that it's clear that human rights it's for everyone and of course for women and girls. So that was what that was her the other one. Eleanor Roosevelt was the one who put in the idea of economic social and cultural rights because even against the advice of her state department at the time and she had to struggle. And of course her husband when he was president in 1944 had this bill of economic rights. And so she was very keen to ensure that we have a comprehensive view of human rights so I don't think we should see we cannot see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a Western thing it is nourished was nourished by nations, American, French, Haitian Revolution, but also by, by the way, Mali, there is during the Malian Empire in the 13th century. There was a human rights declaration that was it Mali mother that was adopted at the time, which was, I would say probably at the Magna Car, but you had a number of other documents already in Africa, for example, that were very similar. And one should not forget that the Vienna conference and the Vienna Declaration and Program of Action which was adopted by consensus, reaffirmed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and you had 171 member states participate at the time. So, I think when we hear that not everyone participate while they certainly reconfirmed it in Vienna. And I think we need to use these arguments, plus, when you sign the charter. As an incoming member state, human rights is also in the charter of the United, it's one of the principles and purposes of the United Nations so I think we need to counter this view that it's a Western thing and it's only a small number of states that that that that drafted it today we have a very different perspective on it. I have a question here about the Human Rights Council. What do you say to critics who would observe that regularly countries with a very dubious record and human rights end up being elected to the Council does that take away from the Council's credibility. Well, it is, of course, a concern that there are sometimes countries elected to it, where you have a very, very poor human rights record. And then, I hope that when these elections take place that this is much more part of the thinking of member states when they elect countries and that there are really commitments extracted from them when they become members of the Human Rights Council. Overall, the legitimacy, I mean, you know, we are in an intergovernmental process so these are member states deciding themselves how to how to conduct this. We have seen in those who have been elected to it. Sometimes it actually helps with to have the detractors within within your system rather than outside the system because there are special responsibilities that go along with it and that's part of diplomacy and we need to find ways and means to engage with them so even if, you know, it would always be it's the ones who have a much better human rights record. In other, it has had this counterintuitively, it has the effect that you actually then find leverages that perhaps were a bit more difficult in the past but yes it is an issue. Another question for relates to the universal peer review procedure. What's your assessment of that is it working is it producing the desired pressures on individual member states. The universal periodic review is a fantastic, fantastic process because it is, as we say peer reviewed and it reviews everyone. There's no exception to it. And it in it allows for this peer review and it is accepted by member states I mean it's, I mean, that's a good thing it's the they feel that possible nobody's perfect so you can actually go into some quite robust discussions. What we need to do much better in the future is to have the follow up. I mean we have seen now we are in the fourth cycle that some recommendations keep recurring and they are not addressed. So I hope that, including by a stronger presence of my office in the field that we would be able to do much more and in terms of making sure that these recommendations that are that are self accepted by member states are actually also up on and I think that that moment of how to ensure that we move from, you know, a process to actual implementation is is going to be the next big challenge for us. Okay, there's a range of questions, which relates to sort of generic issues about the office and your work and, you know, with time permits I'll get to some of those shortly but they're also there's a series of questions about individual country as you can imagine, and I just mentioned a few of them so far. Obviously, you have a vast portfolio of places with which you have to be countries with which you have to be concerned. Here's one from Michael Doyle, which relates to me and Maher, and I just summarized his question for it's, there have been many calls for stronger UN engagement in the resolution of the crisis in me and Maher with all the issues of human rights humanitarian other concerns with the unexpected departure this month of the most recent UN special envoy. What is the current strategy for for the me and Maher crisis. Michael observes that the ASEAN five point consensus of April 2021 hasn't had any success. I mean, I know that you and your office to don't have overall responsibility for the me and Maher crisis but on the other hand that really looking at the human rights dimension. Is there anything that you can tell us of interest in relation to that question. So me and Maher. I mean, I saw no lean hyzer was the former. I think I don't know whether she I think she may still be an office, but she's finishing very soon. And indeed, I think the political process is very fraught. And this being said, I'm glad that the Security Council finally managed to pass a resolution on it by contents or so I mean, I mean they. So that's at least important. It's an important signaling. I do think, I mean from my from, I used to go quite a lot when I was in UNHCR I use the country quite a lot is was of course, before the events of the last two years, but it was still with a very strong presence of the government at all. Of course, in my current function, we are not. I mean, we don't have an office there. We are doing a lot of the work out of out of the bank book. And we have of course, the special reporter and the independent, the monitoring mission for me and ma which are important tools to document to analyze, but also to ensure that accountability is is is not lost within I have high hopes for the International Court of Justice proceedings that the Gambia brought in, as well as the ICC process. And I do think that the emphasis on accountability is absolutely critical. And from, from my vantage point where I sit now. I think we really need to see what the day after is going to will be a day after because we know that repression is not going to work cannot. I mean, the history tells us that repression is is not going to be the future and we will need to prepare for it, including with those within the me and my society that the new G but also others who hopefully will, and I think that's one of the realizations they will come to see that the ethnic divisions, including in particular against the Rohingya is not part of the future that when they move forward, they will have to have a very different, more ethnically integrated approach, which includes also particular Rohingya. So, I mean, I think the, the best way forward is from a human rights perspective to keep not giving up to keep pushing for accountability to keep documenting but also to point out to those who have influence over the country, their own responsibilities of somehow making it work beyond the ASEAN I mean there are other actors as well. And I think that's really critical. Luke Feeney asked a question about access issues in Israel and the OPT, the Occupied Palestinian Territories and he notes that I think your office has had issues in the past. Can you comment on that? Yes, I, this is a very sore point, because we are two years ago and I will actually mention to the UNS Council again on Monday because we have the second round of the council starting next week. So international staff have not been able to get visas. And I have taken this up with the authorities, but so far without success. And it's really important that my office, I mean we still have national staff in the occupied Palestinian Territories, but my international staff are working out of Jordan. And of course it would be much so important that our international staff are again present there. And it is an issue of cooperation frankly. So I hope that there is a realization in the part of the Israelis to give us these visas. It's absolutely critical. Thank you. A question from Valerie Hughes about the situation in Syria, for which enormous numbers of refugees have come and continue to come. And obviously Valerie's question is against the background of the shocking drowning off the coast of Greece. Can you comment on the apparent ongoing impunity of the Assad regime? Again, it's a country where my office is not present, but continues documenting with all the other mechanisms including the triple IM to make sure that indeed we have the dossiers available in accountability issues. And as you probably know, in some instances where universal jurisdiction applies, when there have been war criminals, Syrian war criminals being caught in I know a couple of cases in Germany, but also in France and other places where precisely the type of documentation that we have put forward and have collected over the years has been very useful from an accountability perspective. So I think that's absolutely critical for us. Just one more country specific question, Falka, and that is it's one from Keelan O'Sullivan, who's a researcher at the Institute, and she says that the situation in Afghanistan remains one of the most extreme instances of widespread systematic violations of human rights, especially women and girls. How can the UN engage with the de facto authorities, the Taliban to promote and moves towards strengthens human rights in Afghanistan? No, I fully agree. I think Afghanistan is one of the countries where you have actually seen a country or the de facto authorities, not the country, but the ones who govern the country, de facto, have moved outside the international order. Because I mean, to the repression against half of the population, while I called it gender apartheid, I mean, I know that there are different views of whether or not one can use apartheid, but I think it illustrates what is behind it. And, and, I mean, again, I have still got an office presence there. So you can imagine the dilemmas that our colleagues go through. We have male and female colleagues we have actually decided that no one comes to work into the office because we don't we don't want to follow that directive, which means they continue working but they continue working in different ways. But, you know, it's, we don't want to follow this, this horrible instruction, which is of course also a violation of the Charter of the UN. We have, I mean, the UN as such, of course, has contacts with the de facto authorities, especially in Kabul, but it also has to be said that there is quite a difference. There are different factions within the Taliban. You have the ones who sit in Kandahar, you're sitting some in Kabul. There are in some geographical areas of Afghanistan, there are different practices. So, you know, some of these across the board, pronouncements don't necessarily always think in. So you also see some governors or some parts of the country where local authorities, of course, allow girls to go to primary secondary education and and also to work. So the strategy will have to be possible, of course, to keep at it to document again accountability comes in. And also the question, how can we make sure that those areas those geographical areas where it is possible to work in a in a in a more inclusive way that they get bigger and that some at some stage it will be proven right to actually ensure this more inclusive approach. So one can never give up on these things and one shouldn't one should always be hoping that with consistent messaging, and it has to be coherent messaging by the international community that change could eventually take place but I won't hide from you it's one of our biggest frustrations. Well, the question from Chris O'Connell from Trocrow, which is a leading Irish humanitarian and development organization. He asked about the issue of the closing of civil society space. So, going beyond, if you like the pressure to be applied to national governments, is there something which the international community, I suppose he means the UN and other international organizations, is there more that can be done at that global level to try to get a meaningful role in civil society in those countries where it's coming under threat. I mean, I can give you the bureaucratic answer, which is that yes the UN has issued a UN guidance note on civic space for all its UN country teams and this was drafted both by us by my office as well as by you and women to make sure that our country offices on the ground are sensitive to this issue, analyze it but also intervene. But I think for us all the challenges. And it's a bit what I mentioned before how do we regain the norms that we are aware that we're so painstakingly established over so many years. But what does civic space mean when it's what how does it hurt a society and I think we need to come back almost to these basics because we know that societies, and I mentioned it before can only flourish. If you allow creativity if you allow innovation if you allow meaningful participation if you allow inclusion if you allow independent and free media. And that's to the advantage of everyone. It's to the advantage of sustainable development it advances peace and security and and and of course also it allows for humanitarian affairs to be done in a different way. So, bringing out the advanced I mean, I, when I was young I was very much influenced by Karl Poppe's book, open society and its enemies right we almost need to rewrite it and think about the digital side as well, because there are so many closures of mind. There are the obvious ones and when it comes to civic space but there are the other ones as well that come from the echo chambers in social media platforms that actually cloud our minds. And we need to be, you know, owning civic space in a very different way in the future and rethink what open space and open debate means today, and how we counter the beginnings. I mean the beginning of encroachment on civic space always the one where you may have still a chance to influence it and sometimes these small signals that we see are not acted upon very quickly. And I think that's a little bit our challenge you know bring out the advantages even from a purely scientific perspective. You know, countries that are open and free drive better they're more resilient, they can deal with shocks. Those who repress, they will not thrive, they will have difficult, difficult they will not meet the challenges of the future. And, and again have a strategy that identifies early warning signals and reacts to that very quick. I mean, you know, Russia to give you an example we have seen in Russia, over the last more than 15 years that chipping away at the civic space edifice. And would we have done something better. And within the Russian society but also outside. Should we have picked it up. What would have, what would it have told us and, and I mean, interesting discussion with Memorial recently they came here, you know it's the one NGO the big NGO that shouldn't be prohibited. Yeah, but it's a it's a very important question for all of us how to think together on on how to promote this open free independent space where people feel safe also to to voice what they think. Absolutely. Yeah. I have a question from Seamus Allen who is a researcher in the Institute, and Seamus really asked about theoretical concepts of human rights. You know, are there are there are some who would argue that there should be greater recognition of collective human rights, as we're in addition to to individual rights. How do you react to those calls. I think I don't have the university graduation human rights with me right now but I sometimes. I mean, it's good to have theoretical discussions, but frankly, we know that human rights are always embedded in community life. It's a great way of the day how we interact with each other how we interact with institutions of the state how the state is expected to interact with its people, and also how we interact and that's then it's with, you know, development welfare and, and, and climate change and, you know, with the planet. There is article 28 of the Universal Declaration if I had it with me I would call it to you, but it actually talks about everyone has the right of an international order where these rights and freedoms can be fulfilled something of that sort. I think it's an it's an article that is often not very much understood I'm not very much used. But it actually speaks to this, because of course you need the collective to come in to guarantee your rights that what's also state institutions are like sometimes you have to mitigate the trade offs and the dilemmas between public interest and private interest, but again human rights group provides an answer to it look at the health crisis the public health crisis that we had with COVID pandemic. I mean, certain freedoms had to be restricted temporarily and proportionate manner because of the public health risk. But you see then you have to meet so human rights law does provide a mitigated form of resolution that deals with, if you like, broader public interest and individual interest and individual freedoms. So I, I think it's an artificial dichotomy. I think we need to see it as as something that human rights law actually addresses and including those parts of of the UDHR that are often not used. Okay, I think we have time for about two more questions if we can ask you to be patient. So one is from Ashley McCann also at the Institute who mentions the human rights 75 youth advisory group that you have set up as an initiative that this year. In your view what are the most important ways in which young people can promote respect for human rights what would you like to see youth doing sort of as we go forward. The youth component is is absolutely critical and we did when it was ill in the executive office of the Secretary General, if there was the human rights, not human there was the UN 75 celebration. It was interesting because in 2020, because there were a number of surveys done. I think over a million people, especially young people. And I think even children were were surveyed and interviewed. And if you asked, what are the top concerns climate change came up and human rights. But of course, these are probably individuals and young people who are very much engaged with the type of issues that we're engaged in. I think we need to make sure that the concept of what human rights means in our daily lives is is really disseminated to each and every one and every corner of the world, because rights awareness is the start of social change. And I've been in countries, in fact, shocked to see that some, including young people have no rights awareness in others. Even those with lesser education have rights awareness and there you have seen the changes. I mean, I remember in Columbia, for example, Columbia's even under, you know, populations that were schooling was very much of an issue and access to to secondary education, but they had an awareness of their rights, and they knew that they could demand it and they knew that that wasn't right. And that actually did lead to changes in these countries in others. That's not the case. It's very difficult. So I think we need to, by the way, the University Declaration of Human Rights is the most translated document in the world. We are in the Guinness Book of Record. There's no other, there's no sacred text. It's, it's the University Declaration that is the most translated document in the world, which also shows something. And I do think that, you know, we need human rights courses in primary, secondary, tertiary education, and not just in specialized legal or international relations things. We need it in each area of, of studying. I mean, a doctor needs to understand, has some basic understanding, as well as someone who is an engineer, or a climate, someone who is a metric wants to study meteorology, or a worker, or someone who, who is a plumber. I mean, I think we really need to make sure that we, we make it part and parcel of our upbringing and our orientation and, and that can, I think that can be done. I mean, we need to do much more. And I think that also this rights awareness is so critical again. Last question just for myself. You, you said in your Vienna speech recently that the one on the anniversary of the Vienna conference that the 2030 agenda for sustained development is itself a human rights agenda. I certainly agree with that and, and did I know that you and your predecessors have worked hard to, to get that accepted that dimension. As it happens, there will be an STG summit in September, as you know, and indeed it's being co-facilitated by Ireland and Qatar. I try to have the human rights dimension of the STG is brought out more clearly in the, in the declaration, which is to issue from that. I mean I should say I'm speaking on my own behalf but I'm just guessing that you would like to see that brought out because it hasn't in fact received as much attention as it should have. I fully agree with you and, of course, you know the genesis of the STG is extremely well. I mean, a lot came from in a lot of the STGs are a direct result of deliberations that happen in the human rights world. Especially in economic social and cultural rights and also some of the specialists that have been working on it, but also the treaty body, the committee on economic social and cultural. And I, I mean, we did the Danish Institute of Human Rights did an analysis for us a couple of years ago and they, you're probably aware of it. They actually looked at, you know, how much of the STGs are actually human rights obligations. 95% or so. And that's important because the STGs are of course agreed at the intergovernmental level in the UN. But they, they are expectations that people have of the institutions that are supposed to serve them. And, and their rights. And yes, I hope that especially because of these anniversary year, the human rights anniversary that we really have this year that during the STGs in preparation for the STG summit and with the two core facilitators Ireland and Qatar, that we would have a strong recognition of the human rights dimension of the STGs. And I think that would indeed be very much welcome. Great. Okay. Thank you so much for really tour the force that was fantastic having you and we really appreciated your generosity and making time available and in making your initial presentation and in responding so, so fully and so so passionately to the, to the many questions which we, we put to you. Perhaps more, I'm sorry we didn't get time to, to get them but you were extremely kind to make us available for for to be questioned that way. You have a huge portfolio we wish you every success in in intact as it is really a gigantic job. And much will will will rest on your shoulder so the best of luck with the various anniversaries with the human rights council next week and everything you're doing. And on behalf the institute like to thank you very very much. Next time, we very much hope it will be in person. Yes, me too. Thank you all very much and thank great to see you again David and indeed I hope it will be in person next time.