 This is Think Tech Hawaii and we have a show today on November the 18th 2021. This is a weekly discussion show. It's Politics for the People and I'm your show host Stephanie Stoll Dalton. We have a topic that is timely and active this week and raising many many questions. So the political state of affairs featuring Republicans leading in the polls for the 22nd midterms show us they're doing so by a lot. They have the largest lead they've ever had in over 40 years. So right now about 51% of the voters favor supporting Republicans. So let's discuss this state of affairs with our guest panel and we can talk about what it is that we have in hand right now how we got here and what to do to suggest to Democrats how to change a trajectory of today's voter preferences for Republicans with what time is remaining in the run up to the 22 midterms. So welcome Jay Fidel and Tim Apachello and Winston Welch for a guesting on the show today in this discussion. Even even before their win as prophesied by these polls if those are of use anymore I know we those have raised some issues but even before their win Republicans are ravenous about revenge for revenge and threatening to turn out subpoenas many many more than than have been turned out so far for Democrats as soon as they are in position. So a question raises a question are the Democrats winning on the accountability issue and that is a high value and important to our democracy but the question is is there a recognition that there might be an unanticipated outcome that contributes to polarizing and the radicalizing of our of our of our potential voters. So only a few years ago Kevin McCarthy ousted Steve King from the House while today Representative Gosart presents murderous depictions in media of his colleague slaying his colleague saying he is a warrior for the past president and that's what he is all about and his commitment. So what does this tell us about the values that are in play now have they possibly changed Jay can you speak to that what are these values that we as Americans have held and don't seem to be in play now what is happening. I'm going to let Tim and Winston speak to that but I I looked at your that your title here and I found that it was a very interesting title for the show said GOP lead in polls through my virtue of I guess normalized violence and honestly Stephanie I just didn't understand the relationship of those two parts of the title. Okay I guess you want to talk about how the GOP is leading in the polls and that's good but then through normalized violence is violence a part of their ability to I didn't understand that so so I went and looked up normalized violence and that's what I want to comment on here at the top of the show. Normalized violence is a term of art I don't know if you intended it to be a term of art but it is a term of art it's been studied and I ran into a lot of articles about what normalized violence is and I find that normalized violence is actually according to these articles articles written some some time ago in the immediate term before Trump and now normalized violence is what is happening in America and there's several things that I want to mention here just for you know the top of the show and I'll get off one is that is that if we have media that is telling us about violence as a matter of trying to get eyeballs all the time you know raw meat news stories reporting on violence all day whether that's Fox News or MSNBC it's all the same it makes people think violent it normalizes violence and it leads to more violence in the community and according to a number of articles I saw the media is responsible for heightening the amount of violence in our community okay that's one thing and maybe the GOP likes that maybe Trump likes that the second thing which is a very interesting article written in 2014 by somebody at the Vera Institute of Justice in New York I know about this organization very high-class organization and what they said was there were two aspects of the normalization of violence one is that you know this thing about you you get in with a group that extols violence and you are the object the victim of violence and as a result you're likely you know to do violence to others and so we must make those people accountable so to limit the amount of violence the second part is even more interesting is if you are a victim and you survive and that means survive physically like you don't die or if you survive the PTSD aspect of being a victim of violence then you are more likely survival makes you more likely to do violence the next time around what I'm telling you is the literature seems to suggest the psychological literature the legal literature seems to suggest we are now in a time where various factors are feeding into not necessarily the educated part of our society but the lesser educated part of our society to make people more violent well Jay you go right to the heart of the matter and to the definitions that are very useful and hopefully you know with this this discussion can go on with this theme throughout what it is we know is happening and in fact NPR just had a show on about the discourse situation that we have now in politics and that it is it is opening up to violence too in other words Jefferson and our founding fathers said stay with with the themes the topics the issues don't go into talk that is violent about the people that you're engaging and showing them to be dehumanized and that leads to violence but anyway you've given us a lot of information about the definition of it and my example of the bringing up the Gossart media depiction is an example of of bringing violence into into play into discussion into discourse or showing it in through media where it can go much much further than ever before and that is normalizing that topic yeah well very interesting that in the Vera article I just mentioned there's a defense mechanism that people you know that that people engage in when there is violence it's called minimalization and that's exactly what Gossart has done to defend himself to minimize the violence and it's very dangerous to allow that you cannot do that you must make people accountable so the house did the right thing although not the not the mainstream GOP right well um let's let's go on here to Tim um having had these these statements made and and Jay's research shared so what what what is what is it meaning to you about what has happened with the Gossart thing and the and the fact that yeah yeah I think there's a you could draw correlations to our tribalism and politics our tribalism that is spilled out from politics into society and that that tribalism is the the primary question always is when it comes to actions and words from the GOP is what would Donald Trump do and what would Donald Trump approve of and how can I get a an invisible pat on the back from Donald Trump and the tribe by how landish I can act or say or in this case create videos that perpetrate violence and I want to be in the tribe I want to stick out as a member of the tribe I want to outdo Donald Trump and some of his outlandishness and and and and horrible behavior because that's the way the tribe likes to to to roll and I think that's a big part of where we're at today I agree with Jay completely that those studies are valid and there is a correlation and we've been talking about the correlation of violence on TV and TV shows and and how kids react to it and you know correlation is you know it's never been proven because it's it's not it's not a science it's an art form of trying to determine how how violence does react or excuse me shows about violence react to children's behavior and imitation and I think they're trying to imitate and who are they trying to imitate Donald Trump okay and why uh to talk about then where that comes from and where that started and what and what you're talking about is what underlies these increasingly ethnically driven violent statements and well not just ethnically remember in the 2016 campaign he completely at his rally said well if you rough him up I'll pay for your attorneys to defend you and when you put a perpetrator in the car don't worry about protecting his head you know let him hit his head on the top of the police squad car so they take these cues from Donald Trump good people on both sides another big cue another dog whistle and so they learn from their dear leader on what's acceptable and and and in this particular representative goes art took it to the next level I think that you've gone right into the source area that's important to talk about you know where is all of this you know that their lack of accountability their threats their intimidations that are are actually in fact somehow encouraging voter support and and the the continue the expansion of this support group so who is this support group that's expanding and growing feeding on this level of of um presentation or uh campaigning or discussing politics so you know um Winston Chris Christie says that politics must shed the 2020 election issues to go on but it has actually built up a wind trajectory so and if the polls are actually informative anymore which we I have that's our tool we have to use them they're on a run with it so is Christie's advice wrong about paying attention I'm trying to get past the 20 election is that relevant here with what's happened and what Tim has referred to as already been demonstrated by Trump in the 2016 campaign well we're seeing the cracks now after it's November so think about a year ago how our stress levels were nationally we were off the charts you know we just had an election and then all this pure nonsense came after that which came very close to destroying our nation it didn't happen people pulled back you had all of the former um a defense was a defense no they're not ministers they're a department of defense chiefs coming together saying we don't use the military all types of people came out from society and government and everywhere all saying we don't do this nevertheless January 6th happened we're still trying to find out what is going on there and we will find out I don't know that it'll make a difference when you were opening the show and you were talking about what could the democrats do I think really it's the question as much is what can americans do and it's reaching out and re-establishing these fractured fake divisions that have been put between us when in fact we mostly want the same things I'd also posit that it's the republicans that need to have these really important internal discussions discussions inside their family all the way up to the the national leadership and Chris Christie was emblematic of that as is Liz Cheney and they're saying you know what we've got to rein things in here we are not a party of personality or of occult we're not based around one leader we're based around a set of principles and I think if they can get back to that and I think if they can as we saw on the show yesterday uh you know Cynthia saying she uh she might even vote for a ticket with uh Liz Cheney as president and uh is it the uh Adam Kissinger or is that who she was saying for my stress in any event uh those are the those are the important discussions that need to take place there because we need what we're really really looking at is strengthening the values of the republican party to get back to its old self and uh it's known self and it's true self Winston I like that you you're saying that and referring to yesterday's talk and I also like there when you use the fortification uh word because I think that that's something that we could talk about here today how does the how do the democrats fortify themselves against this trajectory that that's you know speeding along towards taking over the government but um what's really important is that also I challenge you on whether we are going after the same want the same things at this time ultimately and in the biggest picture of course I think you're right but I wanted to ask Jay if if you agree that we actually are wanting the same things these that the in these parties or are we in a place where it's very different because we are having different values drive the political discussion so in in other words we have we have leaders um and potential leaders who are enabling and enraging and reinforcing anger and then importantly including people who have not traditionally been involved on and are been empowered by the political process they've been ignored and dismissed as an educated male spread next gun nuts molition whoever else is in that that mix and and and it looks like that may be a recipe for what the past president has successfully used to not only convince and encourage and develop his base but grow it so are we actually operating for the same reasons are we going the same place Jay as as a nation as population of voters I can't help but thinking of lord of the flies where you go tribal you go with a sort of primitive state of nature I'm not saying that that movie and book you know were necessarily scientific but but they do you know suggest what is happening now where you have a group of people who who are into raw power and violence who really have no higher ideal to aspire to who are unformed unformed human beings in a state of nature that's really sad and I certainly agree with Winston's hope in this matter that the republican party can see itself clearly but I want to point out that the republican party isn't the republican party that existed a few years ago it's different and the people who run it are different and I think that the classical republicans are not there certainly they're not in control what we have now is more like lord of the flies so I don't I'm not optimistic about this I'm not optimistic that they can they can find a better motivation a better ideology I think they're just going to try to win at all costs that was the discussion yesterday Stephanie they just want to win it doesn't matter you know what what does nothing else matters so I I guess I would say that if you look back at these studies over violence one thing is clear is that you have to have accountability you have to have accountability for the young pubescent who is watching violence on tv every day if he wants to act out like that you have you have to punish him I'm sorry and the same thing applies to all of humanity and that means that what's left of the federal government has to act what's left of the department of justice has to act you know what what courage the executive branch has either in biden or the people around him to actually take steps to hold these people accountable and now I mean I don't think there's any issue that if you wait for years to hold someone's feet to the fire you're not achieving anything the only way to stop bad conduct is to is to take action right away we are not doing that we are losing ground so I think the accountability the accountability alternative is is losing ground where am I going on this I I don't think the republican party has it to correct itself it must be corrected by the elements of government that are left that are still functioning well I wanted to ask um idea Tim you can comment on comment on this about the the democrats and if they are tone deaf to what the kinds of things are that and um they're certainly um in other words we're talking about what was a 30 group of people that were supporting Trump okay from the 2016 election time and then that kind of stayed there and got up to 40 and now we're looking at a cluster of folks in the majority 51 percent of voters who are resonating to this this discourse and this language and being encouraged by these values that are not commonly shared at this time across the spectrum of voters I think the rest of the voters in the democratic party are abiding by the established the the traditional the the values that we all have worked out of and the accountability and and uh and working for democracy and abiding by the constitution and being polite and uh being uh debaters who uh stay on the high road and not attack people so who are these people then and how are the democrats attending to them are they are they who are these people well these are the people as I said my first answer are the ones that have drinking of drunken the kool-aid the Donald Trump kool-aid and they're taking their their words and actions to the next level of absurdity and and and the deplorability and and they've they've they've taken over the party I agree with Jay 100 it's not the same party um I'm a Democrat yet I I don't subscribe to a lot of the progressive democrats values and opinions um the republicans the the old the old republicans that are still calling themselves republicans I'm sure they feel the same way they feel like they're on a roller coaster and they can't get off uh you know I'd be interesting to see what would happen if Liv Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and Chris Christie or something formed a new party formed an independent party I know they don't work but this might be 2024 might be the year where they just have to clean house scorch scorch the house and clean it out get rid of the you know get rid of these these sycophants to Trump and just clean it out once and for all and start fresh rebuild and probably that would happen if they lost horribly because the party split and went up into an independent direction well who would be in this third party tim that would that would join I mean who well it would be a mission of failure they they would have to know that they're not going to win their candidate probably would not win but it would be a chance to get the party back to where it was where you know you're guided by a sense of a sense of principles and policies that are working for the people is something for not against and it's a party not a personality of Trump it's a party of ideals and and the conservatism that they've they've followed that mantra for many many years and they've lost that now they've lost it they they subscribe to a party of Trump and you think that those those would migrate to this third party where they could be there I don't think it's going to happen I said it would be very interesting to see it happen it would be nice to see it happen I want my old Republican party back although I'm not a Republican anymore I would I long for the days where the moral majority and the evangelicals are out of the party I missed the days where they were based on conservative fiscal principles and budget and conservative issues I'm no longer a Republican well you know Winston Jay mentioned the lord of the flies and you know those those were children okay so the end of the book is you know captain adult who who comes in and everybody lines up and salutes again on their coats and buttons um and um and and of course um in the Republican party we have the examples of McCarthy who was completely um aligned with the traditional values earlier and um even McConnell you know all of these people were and their adults so we know that they have been in the place that they need to be as Republicans and uh that now that they've wandered from that why this is the question where have they gone why have they gone and is it indeed just a matter Winston of the wind that they think this is a win and why would they think it's a win this is not something that wins uh in the long run these these things come back and bite when you go for normalized violence and you encourage all of these very dark ways of operating so what what are we what would you recommend that the Democrats start thinking about doing to fortify themselves to get themselves interjectory to win I mean I would go back to the Republicans again and I like Kim's idea or splitting this party into two pieces it's probably not going to happen but you know we I just read an article uh that that Mitch McConnell was uh wanted Donald Trump disinvited to the inauguration and that just came out a couple days ago because he was so concerned that he would have the supporters try and do something that day um there's no love yeah and there's there's no love lost between these these people and Mitch McConnell despite sort of allying himself with this he's still maybe somewhere deep in his soul if he's got one which we hope he does he's he is a principled conservative somewhere in there and it's not just about raw power it's about advancing a conservative agenda and if he can regain that and then uh and he's not a come out and say something directly uh to the troops it's all behind the scenes it seems to be to me um he's he seems to be a sane individual and maybe he can start shaping this it's just a turn of the ship honestly this is a big ship it moves very slowly but we're pulling away we're not where we were a year ago a year from now things will be very different a year ago how many americans uh percentage of americans we're going to get a shot um now what are we at i mean even in in in most states it's it's it's just sort of become a norm so as we move farther and farther away from donald trump and hopefully he doesn't regain any national spotlight more than he has uh we may gain a sense of of reality i mean as an educator you know of how many um of the amazing amount of violence that children are exposed to visually on tv uh as all americans are we anytime you turn it on the kids watch something i don't know 10 or 20 000 simulated murders by the time they're older it's amazing there's not more violence in this country especially considering we're armed to the teeth um and in many states you can carry a gun when you go to walmart on your on your hip um or a safe way let me let me add to that winston it's not only the murders they see that that that that uh that confuse them it's the fact that these people get shot they get maimed and they survive right and at some level of analysis these kids who watch this stuff think well i'm indestructible that's right you know a hospital modern medicine will cure me um in a miraculous way which isn't true they they actually die with these people they do but we also have the their video games which are insanely violent i we're all of an age where we probably have never played one but if you watch these uh they call a fps or something like that first person shooter games i mean these this is uh these kids are they've been target practicing since they could pull the trigger on the video game um but they're not out there doing it uh it is my point and and and they could be and and while this this uh really egregious thing with uh with representative gosar um and and i i would encourage our our gentle viewer to watch alexandra octavio cortez's response to that she says is this who we are this is not about me this is not about him this is how we conduct ourselves as leaders and representatives in this government and as human beings it's about basic human dignity and i think if the democrats want to press a message it's that it's let's go back to basic human decency dignity treating each other with respect starting at the top i'm disappointed with kevin mccarthy disappointed that's not that's strong and upward but basically we're starting this fellow got censured by the uh by the house it's the first time since charles wranglin in a long time and not many people have so they're calling it out but i don't think the masses are watching that i don't think they care um they're they're worried about gas prices feeding the kids and um you know walking the dog so however those statements from the top do matter for anyone that does watch the news they do matter these little acts of calling people out and calling them up and saying this is not normal behavior what we experienced over the last four year previous four years was abhorrent and that is not who we are as a people that's what we need that's what the democrats can do to come back a really important point and one of the points here i mean that we're moving in this direction in this despicable discourse and have been warned against doing this by all history and anybody that's been a contributor to the development of the documents that support our democracy that we're moving in a direction that is got a real bad ending because it does allow those thoughts into words go into action and uh that and we know what that leads to so while we know then i think you made the point that at the at the big picture we all do want the same thing but on the way to resetting for the big picture for today for modern times which has technology and media everybody knows everything within five minutes of its happening we're transiting and obviously something is it's different we're a different set of values is guiding that transition and 51 of the population of voters is looking to the republican presentation as admirable you know supportable something they like and not what the democrats are doing so my question again is back to jay what do the democrats do what's the recommendation here for fortifying i like that word you used yesterday for uh strengthening the the democratic stance the democratic activity and of course having more wins and products that people enjoy what what what did they do you keep asking that question stephanie i asked in many ways it's unanswerable maybe that's you know you're not going to get a good answer i'm sorry because there is no good answer and who are the democrats anyway they're not necessarily organized they're not unified i told you before that i thought that what's left of the government has to make the g.o.p accountable accountable for january 6 accountable soon accountable right now and that includes the president it includes the department of justice and maryc garland um so that that's some democrats the rest of us all we can do is um is vote and encourage others to vote i met a couple last week who were going to the mainland that we're going to go to battleground states that we're going to try to convince people of color to vote um and that's very noble of them and i appreciate that and if there were a lot of democrats in a lot of states who went to battleground states and made that pitch that would be something they could do but you know the bottom line i'm sorry i'm pessimistic is that there's not that much the democrats quote i mean as an amorphous group of people who are under the same umbrella in some ways and not in other ways what can they do um listen we're in deep kim chi i hope you realize that but kim has an answer he's going to give you the answer i know he is thank you j for your your confidence you know remember when hillary clinton said donald trump and his basket of deplorables i was just gonna exactly say that and remember she backed down all she had to do is double down and list all the deplorable things he said and did up to that campaign run and say yeah and if you're following donald trump i meant what i said i said what i meant you're a deplorable too see that's what something democrats can't do they can't stand behind their words they can't stand uh they falter they get weak in the knees and they can't stand behind that which they should have stood behind and been resolute about and and they just fold and if she would have just never folded and doubled down on it you know what she might have won the election because she took it in the polls soon after she apologized for that comment um i think she was spot on and she's been proven right donald trump and his followers are a basket of deplorables you're absolutely right and i didn't list them among those who've been treated that's just name calling yes no if you ask winston winston is going to tell you that throwing hate back and forth no no no solve the problem that's not name calling because what you do is in the case of goat go start you do what they're doing they're calling out the action and they're putting the leadership on the line saying you're responsible for this not just representative goat start you have a role in this kevin mccarthy you have a role in this rnc you guys are responsible for this behavior and you're doing nothing well my point is that just throwing ready rhetoric back and forth doesn't do it yes what do you think the republicans do and they win and they success successful well they they do more than just rhetoric folks but it's already done the deplorables are now 51 if we want to use that i i characterize them as the you know gun the militia the uneducated males so what i'm saying is how do we address these people actually have not been um they haven't been empowered and she must be asking you the question it's the same question we're going to have everybody comment but the but this group needs guess what education so this this group is now at 51 percent they like what they see that's coming out under the the guys of uh you know trying to win so um and but they don't have enough uh guidance and model from the the democrats maybe what can the democrats group about getting this group up to speed so that they can act like big girls and boys adults and become responsible and um voters is that okay i'm gonna i know we it's time to wrap up and we're gonna be we're always cut short i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna leave you with yes jay is right tim is right you're right uh and it's all depending on uh how optimistic or pessimistic we're feeling at the moment but right now i'm feeling like when you talk about education what can we do it's not democrats or republicans it's all of us and i take a little bit of hope a little bit of hope jay in the governor's race of virginia that fellow threaded the needle he did not mention donald trump and he basically i don't even think he mentioned joe biden he just said i'm i'm running on these positions and guess what those swing voters who did not vote for donald trump voted for him and they were soccer moms i don't know who they were uh people that wanted a sane conservative party that speaks to their fears that speaks to them being taken over and everyone's gonna be a communist making you know lesbian clothes in the reeducation camps melting down their guns you know whatever fears that have been provoked they're that's that fellow one the other thing is don't underestimate the power of bringing the casserole to the neighbor having those discussions or having the harder discussions with your family members who you know with your friends who you become estranged with and say you know what this was a mess i just want to forget the whole couple years or if you want to talk about it this is why these issues are really important to me because this particular behavior this speech this action is reprehensible and really an enigma to your values as well as my values because it's an enigma to being a human being it's not kind it's not thoughtful it's un-american and that's why i am voting in this way that's why i support this person or this candidate i don't support everything about them but this is why and why i want you to understand that as well and that little butterfly flapping its wings may produce a tornado helpful very helpful and really closes out well so jay last comment on this round um i think you know think tech in this program we try to connect the dots and every time we connect the dots and we find we find something hopeful um but i don't i think if you if you look carefully if you went back to all our shows um including the shows that tim and i did years ago you would find little by little the country is the descending and this 51 percent is of great concern and we are we are not doing well um and i and i do not have um any significant level of optimism that the um admirable suggestions that winston makes will be realized i rather think that we're we're going down man and uh i don't know what the future is like but it's not pretty well jay uh jay let's move to tim's uh last comment on this show all right thank you stephanie you know um first i'd like to acknowledge uh the sage words of winston he inspires me to be a better uh politician at heart um to to dull my blade and be and be more compassionate towards my fellow republicans um i probably need to start thinking about that and in all sincerity um yeah i we're in a battle and we're in a fight and but sometimes you gotta remove yourself from that battle and fight and look at the the playground at 20 thousand feet up and i think winston does that well um but it hasn't worked yet i'm we're in a fight and we're gonna have to fight hard and we're gonna have to call call them out when they act badly and that's the g.o.p when they act badly and call them out and and and set that tone of of responsibility and ethical behavior in politics and that starts now and it's it actually happened at the house yesterday so i'm proud of what they did and um there should be more of it these are the dots we can start connecting these dots these good dots that jay said that shows try to trace so we will do that in our talk and i such a good point about the good the good things and the standards and the values that we we adhere to traditionally okay it's time to wrap it for this show this week and uh we um thank you jay find out thank you tim apachello thank you winston welsh for being here on uh politics for the people on a pretty uh crunchy topic and uh i'm your host stephanie stole dalton and we'll see you next week same day same time hallow everyone