 For more videos on people's struggles, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Talking about the debts that took place outside the Paul Bia stadium in Cameroon, we'll talk more about that of course. But also about the way football is often used to whitewash the crimes of dictators of authoritarian states, of corrupt sports managers. All these issues, there's a lot more than just what's happening on the pitch. To talk more about this, we're joined by Jabulu Angidi, the sports editor of New Frame. We also have with us our colleague Siddhant of NewsClick. Jabulu, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Right, so our first question of course is that the massacres, the stampede outside the stadium did make a lot of news, but it was seen more of as a one-off incident, just an unfortunate accident maybe that just happens in these kind of sports tournaments. But there is a far more larger politics around it related to Paul Bia, the president of Cameroon, the way he sort of administered the country, and a much larger politics around it. So could you maybe first take us through some of those key aspects as well? Yeah, I think the nation's cup going to Cameroon was always a propaganda tool for Paul Bia. It's not just about the tournament. I mean, his support has been dwindling. The Anglophone crisis where the minority English speaking part of Cameroon have been protesting since 2017 because of the marginalization, far from the majority French government, is something that has been key in this. I mean, the people who are fighting for decision have said that they would like to use this tournament as an opportunity to amplify their voice and their point across, because the Anglophone crisis hasn't really been covered across the world. I mean, it's something that has been largely ignored. And this is something that they wanted to use the nation's cup to sort of drive their message across. And Paul Bia wanting to use this tournament as a tool really to cement his power. I mean, the guy has been president of Cameroon since the 80s. This is arguably one of the toughest period of his time with numerous calls calling for his head. So there's been a heavy security presence throughout the country because of those threats, especially in Limbe, which is part of the English speaking region. So because of that heavy security presence getting in and out of stadium has been a mission. This is the Kev President, Patrice Motsip, when he held a press conference to discuss the St. Pete. He said that he spent two hours trying to get at Olembe, which is named after Paul Bia. I mean, that's telling when the guy who has a police escort who can be whisked in and out of a stadium within minutes takes two hours. Imagine how the normal men on the streets, how much time that they would have to spend getting in and out. So it's with that background that this is where the heavy police presence is coming from. And the whole idea of using the nation's cup to paint this beautiful picture of a thriving Cameroon. And a president who's got everything under control that this came in the irony of all of this is it coming in a stadium named after him. In a way, it's a reflection of where Cameroon is under Paul Bia with the heavy military presence and the challenges that are within Cameroon that are being tried to mask by through various means, including football. And was said to see lives being lost, especially people coming to watch a football game. But for me, the stampede isn't just something that should be viewed in isolation because it speaks to a bigger issue of what this tournament was aimed to do. And the challenge that is in Cameroon and how Paul Bia is trying to fight for control and remain through all the years that has been in charge of the country. All right, so in this context, of course, we do know that football always football all sport for that matter always has been used by authoritarian rulers. You know, problematic states to sort of say, like, like we said, whitewash their crimes to pretend they do not exist. But could you also talk about how the game maybe is also in some senses served as a space for resistance itself and how in the context of this tournament specifically it's being seen as well. I think the power of sport and football in particular minutes the most watched sport in the world that power is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good and that's because of the power that it has the eyes balls who are there in the World Cup is the most watched sporting event in the world. So because of that power, it pulls a lot of sponsors it pulls a lot of attention. So it can be used for a number of things. We've seen in the past when the likes of did a drug bar with Ivory Coast where he used the Ivorians qualifying for the 2006 World Cup as an opportunity to call for unity and the warring parties to come together and not just support Ivory Coast but also help build a strong country we've seen with Socrates in Brazil with with Corinthians and how football was used as a tool to sort of stand up against an authoritarian regime and we've we've seen so many instances even in Egypt with the ultras I mean they've been key the same with Algeria alters were key in overthrowing both Hosniya Barack and Abdulaziz in Algeria. So sport is that in terms of it's a political symbol in South Africa, it was used as a place for to stand up against apartheid I mean even before non racialism was a thing. Football was a place where black and white can mix together and play and that was a middle finger to the apartheid regime. But because of where things are at now, money runs sport. You see that with the Saudis buying Newcastle, and a lot of Newcastle fans are happy they don't care about that the regime killed and dismembered a journalist that doesn't register in their attention. What is important is that they finally have a rich man owning that lab, which means that they couldn't contribute, couldn't fight with the likes of city, and the likes of Manchester United and fighting for top players and fighting for honors. So because of the power and the love that we have I mean, a lot of people go perhaps and downs with the football teams. It's easy it's not hard to just drop because now they suddenly have a problematic figure in charge because that figures. Come and goes, but the love that you have for your team and the national team is so strong. So that that love is abused by these people because of the heavy presence of money to, to whitewash the regime I mean now, when when we talk of Qatar, and we talk of of even the with with PSG. The first thing that comes to mind isn't so much the humanitarian human rights violations there, or even what's happening to workers in poor building with stadiums and Qatar. It's look at what they've done to men city they've transformed this team into a one of the most lethal and exciting to watch football teams. And we do enjoy watching men city because Pep Guardiola has turned them into a machine. But we also have to acknowledge that that machine is built on blood. And it's because of that love that we have that regime are able to use the power that sport has to sort of massage and whitewash the regime I mean you saw even at Pinochet. And also in South America, when they would host the World Cup. It's essentially that it's not because they want to the good of their people or the huge fans of the sport. It's just the power that it has and even this donations cup in Cameroon. And this will by Paul beer, a moment of reprieve because even after the time stampede, there was still people who wanted to go and watch the nations Cup you've got the best players in the world coming here I mean Saudi oman is the seller. It's an exciting it's a party they haven't hosted the nations Cup in 50 years. So there's still that love. So, as the man responsible for that, he will be adored by most of the football loving public. That's how a lot of people get away with these things because of our love for football. It's very hard. I also I doubt I have the capability to say, I'm boycotting the nations Cup because it's in Cameroon. It's the same with the World Cup in Qatar, with everything and all the problems that are there as a football fan. It's hard to say I won't watch this because of this. But I think that needs to get to a point where we're at that level, because our love is being abused and used to to essentially cover up for for so many violent and criminal crimes. Yeah, if I can jump in for a second, you know, we had a very similar just before a very nasty second COVID wave hit India. Things had opened up for a little while and in that process, the Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated a stadium named after himself, where 100,000 people were packed in and we cannot. There will be never any data to actually tell us how many people suffered as a consequence of that decision to have that tournament in those circumstances. So very much what you're saying is felt I think around the world and I think people will resonate with that that idea of love being abused. But I want to ask you about that because there's been so much going on and all of this for those of us who are watching from, you know, far away. It's a context of looking at what's happening in Cameroon, but also listening to the noise coming out of Europe. So Infantino's statements, for example, which I mean, yeah, it left all of us speechless and also confused about what the purpose of all of this is. So, so first up, if you can give me a sense of how you guys receive those comments. Yeah, I think it's the first was horror and disgust because I mean the context that Infantino is saying that not because he cares about African migrants that's the list of things that he worries about. He just wants to get the World Cup played every two years, because that's more money for FIFA. That's essentially what this is. And to achieve that, he will use everything blackmail and disgusting comments like this to sort of help Rob a stamp that I think Kev and even the continent at large I think there's been that, especially leading up to this nation's cap when Europeans were sort of bossing national teams on when they can get their players and contractually for an international tournament clubs have to release players two weeks before. And Europe went up in arms and the some players who didn't like Dennis at what for to end up not even coming to to the nation's cap because of that. So it starts from day in terms of how Europe has been disrespecting the continent in viewing this, not as a one of the major global competition but as an inconvenience in their league. And that is something that should be taken with what Infantino says with the back of your mind that for for most Europeans, African African football was an inconvenience when it messes up with their leagues. And when it comes to them making money out of it, then they care they love in that to us. And I think the, the third part is the current Kev regime, under Petrus Mote, it was a South African. And it said in that he was, he didn't necessarily win the elections he was handpicked by Infantino to be his proxy at Kev. And you see even with that statement I mean everyone when they hit that statement it was she had discussed that, how day can you say something so insulting, and also, even with the lives that are lost to even use that as a political campaign is So most of Africa was disgusted but Kev because they are essentially controlled by Infantino and Kev and FIFA. The messages that are he was caught out of context, we know what he meant. Gianni is a fan of Africa, and that's not true. He is a fan of Africa, when it gets him votes when it gets him only once, not because he cares about the interest of Africa, because if he was genuinely a fan of, of, of Africa. And this whole European fast was happening when clubs refusing to release players and making noise about the Afghan beginning in convenience and saying that it shouldn't happen. A friend would have stood up and said, stop this nonsense. This is a major tournament. We have to support it. I mean, the, the, the euros were much dangerous than this because the hold in different tournaments. When COVID was really bad and you look at Europe, Europe has been devastated by COVID. And you look at the effects in Africa. I mean, it hasn't been that bad, even the numbers in Cameroon and say like it's the case with England. And England is one of the venues that hosted euros. And that was okay when it was them, but now when it's Africa, it's this so this is a continuation of Africa being used for for votes and resources and when it has nothing to offer it's thrown away. When does the enemy of my enemy become my friend? Because you know, we're watching from Asia, right? And we're looking at, let's say the calf supporting the idea of a twice a biennial World Cup, because it does become a middle finger to Europe in many ways. UEFA loses the money that FIFA gains and part of what FIFA gains then goes to Africa, at least, at least the federations. This is why for Africa, the Biennial World Cup is it makes sense because that's also how the Nations Cup is held. And part of the driving force for the Nations Cup was that the host nation is going to improve in terms of resources and infrastructure that is going to be built for to host this. So for Africa, there isn't much to lose in a Biennial World Cup, because of the money that is going to go to federations for preparations. That's why and that's where Africa is speaking from in terms of the financial rewards. It makes sense for the continent that's because that's essentially why the Afghan is there every two years. It makes financial sense for Kev and the sponsors, but also for the federation. So federations would never speak ill of something that makes them money. And that's where UEFA and that's why Kev has a thorny relationship with FIFA in that in certain moments, their decision favor Africa. But it's not favoring Africa in that because they came. It's because it makes them financial sense. So that's why like in front, you know, I mean he slips us with one hand, and then carries us with the other, and it's a very complicated relationship. So thank you so much both Jabulu and Siddhant for this conversation. We'll keep coming back to some of these issues. It's been an interesting and educated experience for me also. I'll happily admit. So thank you both of you and you're watching NewsClick and People's Dispatch. We'll come back to you soon.