 We're now joined by Mr. Archib Gupta from Gretax. We also have Saurabh Kocher who's joined us from Meadow and Mr. Roy who's joined us from Omnivore Winches. Thank you very much. We'd love to know more from you about what are your views on the budget and how do you think the economy is going to change? Let me start with Mr. Roy. Mr. Roy, agriculture has become sort of the main spec. They say as you progress, agriculture becomes less and other sort of sectors become more but it seems like for the last three months we're only living the agriculture form sector in one way or the other. And the budget also has accounted the agriculture sector. Of course Mrs. Nirmala Sita-Raman has brought out how agriculture particularly our core crops have been growing. The payments and the outlays given to the farmers have been growing substantially double and sometimes even more, particularly for paddy and wheat. And there is of course the fund, the agricultural, infra fund that has been increased so substantially. So what is your take on agriculture and how do you see it changing? And particularly for agri-tech startups, what new opportunities have emerged? Right, so like you said, it's been an incredibly polarizing subject for the last couple of months. So I'm gonna do the smart thing and steer very clear of that. I mean, high level I will say that the additional MSP, I'm not really steering clear of it, additional MSC is welcome. And I think it's not just the quantum that they've set aside, but also the focus on new crops, which I think for us was quite exciting. Rice and wheat needs to move off the center stage. It's been there for too long. It's bad for farmers. It's definitely bad for the soil. So I think the expansion of MSP and the expanded focus on new commodities is something that we think is a great signal and we hope people pick up and run with that. I mean, the macro indicators were good. I don't think there's anything to really point out. Rather it was the smaller things that I think we took note of. I think the updates around the rail corridors were very, very well-received. Supply chain efficiencies remain the biggest issue. I mean, outside of co-production, supply chain efficiencies remain one of the biggest issues in agriculture today. And I think these rail corridors could potentially have a substantial impact on prices as a result of that. One thing that I think not many focused on, but what really excited us, we have value chain investors. So we like new value chains as they emerge. And I think animal husbandry, dairy and fisheries really got a lot of attention and the finance minister didn't hold back when she was talking about fisheries at least. When we're talking about modern fishing harbors, I think a lot of us forget that fisheries is over a percentage of India's GDP. It's not a small number and definitely not something that should be treated lightly. So the creation of these modern fishing ports I think will bring development to the sector which can actively impact the country's GDP. And I think of equal note was the increased aggregate credit targets linked to animal husbandry, dairy and fisheries. I think obviously there'll be development as a result but I think of more interest, especially for investors like us, it's gonna lead to a lot of tech adoption and it's definitely gonna force digitization of these spaces, which will then bring BFSI products into play. People will start underwriting things better in a sector that's otherwise been ignored. Overall, I would say quite nuanced and quite happy with these aspects at least. Sure, thanks for sharing. Saurabh, anything you want to ask? Saurabh, we can't hear you one thing. Are you, Ms. Roy, are you able to hear him? No, I'm not able to hear him either. Not really. Okay, by the time you fix it, Puneeta, you can take on the next question. Oh, Saurabh, I think you should unmute and then ask the question. No, no. Okay, I'll go on to Puneeta. Puneeta, the next question coming from you. Please unmute. Sure. Hi, Arshad, thank you for joining us today. So Arshad, wanted to understand your feedback on the Pentech industry and particularly the kind of tax rebate everyone was expecting. What's your take on that? Hi, Puneeta. Today, the simple mantra is no new taxes equal to good news. No news is good news. We stayed the course. We didn't add any new regulation. We didn't add any fundamental pain. Actually, we simplified a bunch of things around complying and prefilled tax returns and all of that. So overall, I think no news is good news. From a Pentech perspective, there's some shops announced around like creating a Pentech sectoral things, but my sense is the government, if it stays out of this, it's good startups like the only one recommendation which I hope to see fulfilled at some point is better taxation policy for ESOPs, which I was hoping to see improvement from last year to this year. Last year, they made some provisions this year. I was hoping to see like completely better policy on ESOPs taxation from a startup perspective. I didn't see that that was the only hope other than taxes. Overall, the simplification is very welcome on prefilled tax returns, having your capital gains all filled in. It may also help like FinTech startups who are trying to do credit scoring credit analysis for salaried individuals, maybe with better data. So that also improves, but overall, no news is good news in my opinion. And no GST debate on the budget. Do you think that's gonna be a dampener for small businesses? I feel the GST in general, right? The, since GST council makes decisions, generally they have like many more opportunity over the course of the year to keep performing. There were a couple of sectors which offered relief, but GST collections overall going up. Hopefully we see rationalization in tax rates and tax rates coming down every year or every month, but nothing in the budget, this significant budget in that sense. And what do you think about senior citizens above 75 being sort of eliminated from filing an income tax return? What changes do you think it's going to bring tax structure in the economy? Yeah, very welcome move. I feel pensioners and interest pension income and interest income overall, like as a country removing tax burden overall from senior citizenship maybe overall a net positive thing. At least the compliance burden goes away with this action for pension income and interest income, which is typically the main source of income for all the senior citizens. So very, very welcome move. It also shows deeper empathy of not having senior citizens in this, and especially since all taxes are now digitally filed and digital, asking senior citizens to learn new things in that context, it's not super relevant. Maybe they can learn other things like maybe with their grandchildren, they can play apps and stuff, but not learn taxes at this point. That's well put. So we've also been joined sort of, you want to take up next with Saurav. Yeah, sure. So, you know, sort of welcome. So, you know, obviously healthcare was and we were expecting it that, you know, the long neglected sector is going to, is going to be in the spotlight this year and it has been so, so initial reaction and what does it mean for people like Medu? Right, so I think overall very, very welcome. Like you said, we were expecting a significant jump in healthcare spending and we weren't really honestly expecting 2.5X, so which is a very positive development. Of course, a lot also depends on how the rubber hits the road, so not all of the details on that is out. But, you know, from what early signals are, I think there's going to be enough spending on vaccination, there is going to be enough spending on, you know, primary and secondary healthcare as well, because one of the biggest fall points of our healthcare spending till now has been most of it outside of the PSC, CSC has gone into tertiary care. And I think what this solves on any piece gives us, you know, early shoots off is that there is going to be enough focus on both preventive and early care as well. And I think that's a very key missing point. You know, Arshad was talking about taking away burden. I think one of the biggest burdens we still carry on all of us is around healthcare, right? So with 60, 70% of the spending still being out of pocket, I think taking some more share of this potential takes away another 10, 15% of the expenditure from the market to the government kitty. And I think that's a good step to walk in. Of course, like I said, implementation always is where the details are. And but nothing to complain, to be honest. So vaccination I think is a primary goal and there is enough money, 35,000 crores being given for vaccination. So I think that's a good step. Yeah, but is it unfortunate that it takes a, you know, lacks of people dying that need kind of come back to those issues and are not prepared? So, but yeah, it is. Honestly, it is, but see, we can't cry over split milk. What is done is done. What we can do world over, by the way, the gaps in the healthcare systems have kind of come out in the open. So while we are solving for different gaps, the other countries are solving for their own, right? So there's definitely a lot of good that is happening. Access in India is fantastic, right? So we don't have to wait two months to see a doctor, which is the case in some of the other developed countries. So I think there's given take on every design element that you choose, that is pros and there's cons. With all of that and where we were, I think it's important to, I would say look forward and I think what we're doing is potentially the best course. We still need to improve the spending on healthcare further from where it is, but with a year where the GDP is contracting, increasing the healthcare spending to 2.5X is I think is a bold move. It should take overall GDP spending to about three, maybe about 3%. So we're not bad. And I also think it also depends on the pace at which this money gets deployed and how efficiently this gets deployed and which sectors would also matter a lot. Correct, absolutely. I think there has to be enough spending on primary, there has to be enough spending on digital health. So a lot of the schemes around NDHM, et cetera, are in the works. So what I would love to see is a lot of this money also going into incentivizing private players to kind of be part of the digital backbone and bringing in certain even insurance. Now it's open, there's further FDI. I think one of the sectors can benefit a lot from more money flowing into insurance is actually healthcare. Health insurance is pretty policy, right? That in overall, we are in the 30 to 40% range, but in outpatient care, which is where more than 50% of the market spending is, is actually less than 1%. So there's a lot of good things. I think it's important, like you said, it's important to kind of now take this funding, and channel it into the right direction to make for there is a maximum impact. Right. So we joined by Ankur Bansal and Prasanna Rao also. So welcome, welcome, Ankur, welcome Prasanna. So initial reactions, Ankur, never before seen budget Prasanna, how do you rate it? So should I be going up? Yeah, please, Ankur. Yeah, okay. No, I think initial reaction hasn't quite positive. I think everybody believes in that, but more importantly, I think is a final print and the execution that matters. This just sets the tone for the year, but I think the real thing is how well the execution takes place and how the other panelists have spoken about it, at least there is nothing negative that at least impede the development that we're looking for because the next 12 months are critical for our economy. Even for the first time, we have gone to the fiscal deficit that we're looking for and the markets have not shaken because everybody realized just the COVID economics have happened. We have to change the way we used to look at it. Now growth is critical, expansion is critical. And I think we have always been an infrastructure-staffed country and they have focused on all those things, right? And I think if you take each and every sector, something or the other has been there for it. Maybe not everything might be there for everyone, but at least she's trying to keep shifting for everyone. So, and I think one, another thing was that taxation rules also getting a little bit simpler. I think that is important. The securitization rules getting one thing. So all these things are just at least positive from the perspective of an onlooker who's coming from outside of India. They'll think, okay, this country is not going back and track it, it's going in the direction where we can start thinking this country is getting more stabilized. And people do not want shocks. Every year, they want to see some same things happening again and again so that they can at least look for the long term in the country. From that aspect, I think it's been a good budget. It is the limited resources that she has, she's been able to create it. Of course, the divestment and all, whether it will be able to actually give the resources or not, that will be another question that has always been discussed for quite some time. But it's good, we see it does not have much time to length maneuver, right? So there is very limited possibility of making mistakes here. No, it's rightly pointed out that a lot of overseas investors and even Indian investors often point out that the change in stance of the government affects. And so if we are on track in terms of keeping in track the growth, I think that's a positive center center, your initial thoughts. No, I think it is, it's been a positive budget. It really emboldens the idea of India moving in the right direction. Overall, from our industry's perspective, the focus on agriculture and rural infrastructure has increased as is the need of the hour. The idea around the tax holidays on startups is again, a positive thing much against the anticipated additional sess and the fear around additional taxes. Those haven't been there. And I think there's very little meddling on the direct tax side as well. We really think that these are steps in the right direction. And the relaxations around the tax assessments and the reduction of the period from six years to three years also gives a lot of confidence in smaller kind of enterprises and in the startups and then also entities who face the brunt of some of these practices in the past are all steps in the positive direction. One would have expected a little more, maybe around enhancing liquidity in the NBFCs, especially the smaller NBFCs and then the agri-fintechs that have been operating in the country, specifically to try and enhance the reach of financing to farmers and the agriculture sector. Also the other thing that as an industry we had really looked forward to was a rationalization of GST on agriculture warehousing. So these are two parts which at a personal level, at a company level, one had expected which have not come through. But at an overall level, I think the focus has been right and the impetus around say operation greens where the list of commodities have been increased substantially. And these are, these really send the right message and make sure that as an industry agriculture has received the kind of focus that it really deserved in the post-COVID scenario. What do you want to come in here you know of what I said and also I would want to understand from you which was the question I wanted to ask you is that the announcement said that there will be no off balance sheet borrowing by FCI. What does that really mean, you know for because how would FCI operate then because this year also we have seen that it's under a huge debt right now even due to the procurements that it has done. I'm sorry, sorry I'm finding it a little difficult to hear you. Okay, I wanted you to come to what Prasanna just now said about the agri sector that, okay, Mr. Roy, can you hear me? I think it looks like he's Mr. Roy, are you able to hear us? Okay, I think he has to reboot his system. You can go on the next question, sorry. Okay, so I'll come to you, obviously you said that no change is a good thing. But obviously there were a lot of things which were expected, the basic ATC from 1.5 lakh to 2 lakh was something that we wanted to see on a personal tax obviously. From others, there were other expectations also. Obviously the market has reacted positively to no change in status quo but there were things which were missing. What do you think about that? And the other thing which Prasanna just mentioned about the compliance from six years to three years. So does it really, obviously it helps a lot of people but does it also help people who want to evade that, okay, we just need to wait for three years and then we are out of the net? Right, so a great question and let me break it down point by point. One is the overall, there's now a very strong tension between two aspects. Now, one side the government in the previous budget said, you can go into a lower tax lab by not doing any ATC, any chapter six deductions, ATD, ATE, et cetera. And on the other hand, you can remain in the old regime. My sense is at some point the government would want the chapter six deductions to expire. Maybe the industry lobbying is strong enough or what have you. The second part which they moved on to is giving you pre-filled tax returns this year, which means your employer's declaration to the tax authority plus information coming in from the stock exchanging and the RTAs and the post office, et cetera, show up into your tax return. So these are data oriented simplification which lets taxes happen without folks having to break their heads and so on and so forth. My sense is there'll be consistent tension between adding more exemptions versus going towards fundamentally lower slabs, no more exemptions. So I think this is a budget signaling to me that the government wants to move towards lower slabs and almost no exemption and no sort of complexity, lower complexity, lower, lower complexity and pre-filled citizenry forms and numbers. And you don't have to think about taxes per se. Everything is taxed as you come around. Now that works well for salaried folks. That works well for determined transactions which are in the stock markets or digital transactions if you will. It doesn't catch or doesn't put into the scope what happens on the business side. On the GST side, they've done a lot more with the transaction on the GST becoming digital and GST being a digital oriented recording into putting tax. So my sense is hoping for more swaps from ATC, ATTD I think the time has gone. My sense is even the next budget, we won't see any changes even adjusted for inflation or what happened. They'll try to offer go into the lower tax lab it may discourage tax savings. It may discourage savings at a big team level but I'm not seeing that trend come back of salaried folks expecting some tax cuts and that part. The second question which you asked around on the six years becoming three years, overall it is good. I feel like this three years should come down to two years then it should come down to one years. You're essentially saying we'll go for a digital system. Everything will be pre-filled. Now there's a window of opportunity which is too long six years to produce data and to produce, be accountable to the system by as a citizen, right? It's such a low trust economy, low trust system that we have to trust our citizenry more. If somebody is doing some fraud or evasion or what have you, it's part of the, it's okay. I think we have to move on. We have to get to the point where we create enough simplicity ease so that people can comply and when they comply like we don't see everybody as criminals. We see them as responsible adult citizens and then we move on. I feel that six years to three years is great and three years we should ask ourselves a question why is it not one year after two years from now? So and the government has moved in that direction, right? Now refunds come, refunds the system team is telling us they'll try to do within 24 hours of filing a tax return or submitting a tax return. So those are incredible moves forward which were not anticipated like say 10 years ago or five years ago. So overall, I feel positive movement in the right direction. So as we speak, I just came to know I find things that interest over 2.5 like in there's no longer tax free for EPF. Yeah, I wanted to talk about that. Yeah, so you just are mentioning that we're moving away from giving you tax breaks and all but so tell me something. So isn't it a very dicey situation where you can actually, on one hand, I know that miss-sellings might go down for products which usually happen around February, March when people have to file. But on the other way, what happens to the involuntary savings that happens which is a huge asset of this country has been till now. Right, and I had mixed feelings on the EPF side because people would have, especially during COVID, right? EPF, EPF, EPF became very strong instruments for savings and for people who were looking for higher returns on fixed income products that these are the places people started to go to, right? Because bank interest fell. So the policy stability on this would have been valuable but I guess we keep taxing wherever we find pockets so that I'm not happy with. The second question which you, I keep thinking about this question consistently. What is, so there's one paternalistic approach that we say, hey, we'll create policy mechanism where we force people to save every year, right? And then there's the second approach of saying we'll give you the money on a lower tax rate, do whatever you feel like, we will give you autonomy and you are an adult, choose. And I am very deeply conflicted in our team, like there are two camps, right? At Evidently Attacks, deeply split. One folks are on the side of like it's our money, you tax it and then you give it back and we decide what to do with it. But on the other hand, there is merit to having pre-tax dollars or pre-tax rupees compounding for a long time. And potentially at the end of it, it is not even taxed when you come out on the other side, especially with retirement corpuses and pension corpuses, which is like EEE if possible at the end of it because like the inflation is very high if you can avoid that, it's still a pretty good instrument. So I'm conflicted, to be honest. When we built a new product called Black from Clear Tax which helps millennials invest, do tax savings. Over there we see like when ATC, et cetera, exists, they save more. When they don't exist, it's a clear data pattern we have from millions of millennials that if there is policy which forces people to save, they save, if there's no policy to save, they don't save, they spend it. So, or they don't keep it for the long-term horizon. So I feel like the long-term horizon is a good thing. The ATCA incentives are good things, but they may go away. Okay, all right. Mr. Roy, you can hear me now? Yes, yes, I can. So, my question to you before I could hear me was that, there's an announcement which is made that food cooperation of India will no longer take loans off budget. So, what does that actually mean for the agri sector? Because if it's not going to borrow off budget, then how does it, it's already under so much of debt and it has to fulfill the MSP obligations that it has. And we've recently seen data, I think day before or we've seen that they're buying wheat and paddy at the MSP that they have promised. So, if FCI gets weakened, and the other point that I would want to point out is that, in terms of Ms. Sitaraman speaking about farmer, the agriculture sector, she just mentioned that how much MSP has been done over the years, but did you think that there was actual substance in what was proposed and actually translate into, she could have done more, and I know you want to stay clear of that, but given the situation we are in, we could have heard more from her. So, I mean, it's a, I was trying to stay clear of it, but it's reasonably contentious, but let me address some things high level. The fact is that you're right, there is sort of a parallel, I mean, there are two themes moving in opposite directions. On the one hand, there is a compulsion to come across as supportive of the MSP program, not just, and I mentioned this earlier, not just in terms of the quantum of funding, but also in terms of expansion to new commodities. But at the same time, there is a recognition, and I wouldn't say that the government is wrong in this recognition that the current approach that the FCI has had is not necessarily a fiscally prudent one. While I can't explain how the finance minister is both promoting and toning down the same operation, and I think it's best not to comment on that, I think the overall theme, or at least the core message that came across was let's get MSP to focus on a broader spectrum of commodities in order to lose the single-minded focus which Rice and Wheat has commanded, and let's maybe drive down over a period of time, the procurement, some might argue the procurement which was not really required of Rice and Wheat for the FCM. In terms of substance, I think it's important that, I mean, if you're referring specifically to MSP-related commons, I think- No, overall, maybe overall. We've seen that Agri-Fund has been increased and APMCs have been included into that. So overall, do you think there could have been more than we are midst of such a big reform in the agriculture sector? I don't know whether it will go through or not, at least we are in the middle of that. So I would agree that there's always more that can be done when it comes to Agri, and I'm not just saying that because I represent an Agri-Fund, but for the simple reason that it employs too many of our countrymen and contributes far too much to our GDP to be less than a top priority, right? So setting that aside, in terms of, in the short run, what can really be achieved? In many senses, I think what's needed more than anything else is the digitization of the sector. And there is that much that the private sector can do. And there is a role that the government has as well. I would have liked the government to focus a little bit on that as well in this budget. We didn't see specific references to that. We did see some efforts to bring modernization to some value chain. And one would imagine that the cause, I mean, sorry, the result of that effort would somehow imply the digitization of those sectors as well. The government, I think, has its hands tied in that it needs to remain very macro in its approach and can't really drill down into specifics, and perhaps needs to rely on the private sector to do that instead. Asanna, uncle, would you want to add to that the Agri sector? So we are very limited focus on Agri, but I think as such, people have realized the benefit of having a more organized sector. So this has definitely become a very contestious topic, and more and more people are trying to figure out if they can make it more organized. And we are looking for government guidelines to help us in that direction. And I think the basic structure of those laws were trying to bring in that direction, but as we know, that is extremely contentious. But government investing in warehousing, government investing in infrastructure, government investing in warehousing, all these sectors and railways, all these things are very critical for the development of the Agri sector, I think, overall. So as such, I don't see anything which was not in that direction specifically, but I think recognizing various commodities and there's always been more focus on getting other things like animal husbandry or poultry officially, although sectors have been getting some benefit, I think, but now after COVID, these things are getting more critical mass even from the investor perspective as well, and also from the perspective of more and more startups trying to focus on this value chain. Sure. So just came across another release that has come, is that the government has also withdrawn a tax benefit for merger and acquisitions. Now, this is of course going to lead to an increase in the cost of transaction of an M&A. Now, how do you perceive this move? Because obviously, as after the pandemic, this would probably have been a more opportune time for a lot of activity to take place in the startup sector and also between the startup and the MSME sector. What do you think is likely to be the impact of this? So which specific taxes, I'm not aware of it, but obviously anything which is detrimental to this consolidation way will not be great, right? Because the way the economy is there and a lot of startups in the shape they are in, they are looking for strategic as a way to find exit for their, find liquidity for their investors also and finding any kind of descent center would not help that cost, right? Because anyways, any transaction which has to happen in India is not easy to do, right? Compliance around it, it's going to corporate secretary will work around it, it's already very, very difficult to go through. Anything which makes it more complex because the tax rules are anyways having very great. We have seen multiple cases where the buyer and the seller tax laws can interpret the same thing very differently. So any ambiguity does not help the overall situation in the course of a country, right? And MNAs have always been a very critical way of liquidity for most of the startups as well as for private equity players looking for exits because IPO market has been very, very limited for exit. So there is a certain way when you can do exit from IPO but not always that is the case. So MNA definitely is very critical and they always need more clarity around it and trying to take things away unless it's a loophole that people were using to sort of take benefit of it, right? There are a lot of these cases where companies are merging with some other companies to take some tax benefit and then tax holidays. But if there's some kind of loophole around it then it's a very different thing altogether. But any genuine cases should not get impacted which I think was the case for angel tax as well, right? So the idea was to stop something else but it impacted some other sector completely, right? And that is some problem which is still not every, everybody's not out of it completely. So sometimes the guidelines are aimed for something which is sort of where people are taking advantage of it but the genuine cases get really impacted off. So it's important the guidelines are framed accordingly. And I think that's a problem in India, right? Because the guidelines, the law is not really discussed in detail on the budget session. It is just a very headlines have been changed. So headlines are generally positive but generally the final print gives a better clarity about how that thing is going to be implemented. And sometimes that is where we fall short on that. Sure. Archit, do you want to comment on this? I've also not like managed to read the provision on the budget and the fine print yet. So, but I strongly echo any consolidation which is useful and productive. There should be no hampering for that loophole apart. I have to check like the I was looking to the technicality as we were speaking something around goodwill and write-offs and what have you. So I'll have to dive deep before I can comment on that. But again, similar perspective, especially due to COVID, certain companies may not make it to the other side and margin and acquisition usually provides good liquidity. And there's also a consolidation wave. So anything which helps startups, yeah. Yes, so of course there's been a great, the budget has brought some great news for mutual funds with the, particularly with the finance minister, Mrs. Nirmala Sita-Raman, she's proposed a permanent institutional framework to purchase investment-grade bonds in stress times. What sort of movement do you see happening? Do you think people are likely to shift more from equities to mutual funds now, considering that they're now looking a little more favorable? Yeah, my view is that it'll totally depend on, we've seen like the quote-unquote robinodization of entering stock markets, right? Where folks entered the stock markets at different times, and the bull run obviously has helped us, Sensex and the Nifty and NSE, everything like climbing big heights, investors are piling on to stocks, overall mutual fund, the sentiment had cooled down till the bull run continues without any meaningful correction. My view is investors would continue to enter markets with as risky or as fun instruments as we call them as they can. My sense is that the more boring instruments will come into play when the bull run slows down a bit or what have you, that's my view. Yeah, we can await that too. Sort of tell me, do you see, I mean, given the fact that for the first time, so much emphasis has been laid down on preventive and curative, particularly preventive and well-being healthcare, unlike any budget before. What impact do you see overall for startups? Do you see a, a tech type kind of movement happening for startups in health tech space? And if so, what would be the emerging space in health tech that would sort of take precedence? I know there's already been a big growth of telemedicine, there's been a big growth of all kinds of checks that would help pandemics to not spread. So what is your view on this? Yeah, I think overall, I would say, we're still not spending enough on health or even time on health from a startup perspective, right? Even if you look at what has done well over the last year despite the pandemic, it's been dominantly in the e-pharmacy space within health tech than anywhere else. And there was like short spot in the entire teleconflictations effect. I think we need to think about this, about healthcare a bit more holistically. And like I said, make signaling from the perspective that preventive is important, primary is important, wellness is important. Will definitely, I would say, get some more attention to these areas which have not really historically been focus areas for anyone, right? So I think I'm actually quite hopeful, but like I said, a lot of this depends on what is in the details. Like we just talked about the M&A issues, right? So I for once don't feel that in this startup space, especially if you're having enough transactions, right? In fact, if you ask Bayon of most funds, VC funds, they will say exit is the biggest problem, right? So I don't think entrepreneurs themselves have the right kind of mindset to make sure more and more deals happen. And if on top of it, there is things like this, it kind of, I would say, is not a very, very good signaling at this point, especially when bulk of the startups are going through a bad phase. From a health perspective, I'm actually quite hopeful. I think it's one of the most opportune times for most people who are looking to start up in the healthcare space that is enough attention. But like I said, that tension needs to be far more than just tele-consultation and any pharmacies and commerce. It has to be on health and provision of the biggest problems in the country that we are facing from a healthcare perspective, right? That is problem around quality and standards of healthcare being provided. There's problem around affordability of healthcare and lastly access to dominant in the rural area. So I think these are the biggest problems you're facing and I'm really looking forward to the next couple of years and see more and more people participate. Sure. Do you think the funds are likely to now look very differently at the healthcare space? And we might be looking at a revolution at the core fintech in the healthcare space. So maybe Prasanna might want to comment on this. Yeah, I think healthcare has obviously taken every investor's imagination, I think, since COVID and globally, if you see US onwards, also Italian medicine, et cetera, stocks have really grown multifold. So that is definitely going to fall in India, but obviously India has its own stories with digital penetration being very limited, right? So it's not as simple as it follows and we do not pay the doctors the same way the way we pay abroad, right? And insurance penetration is also limited. So we come with our own execution issues and somebody has to develop an India specific problem solution. So there is definitely a huge scope. You take any segment of healthcare, which is a billion dollar opportunity, I think in itself, right? So you can have multiple Baiju's coming out of the sector, definitely. But the speed and execution of it is not going to be driven. It is not a e-commerce play that you can just discount your service and somebody will come and start taking your service. Because it's a very different thing altogether. So you have to take care of the patient's problem. And within each thing, there is so many things to be done. Even in urban cities also, we know that tier four, tier five cities, et cetera, always having a lot of healthcare issues. Even in urban cities, we know middle class and lower middle class have their own problems of accessing doctors and high quality doctors. And the amount of, on that side itself, the number of hospital beds that we need per person is also limited. But I think COVID has been a good awakening. Better late than ever. So, and the budget obviously understands that and that's why they could see that growth in that budget that they want to do. But it says that budget will be spent over six years. So I do not know how much the benefit of it will come immediately. So, but I think from startup perspective, it is definitely an opportunity. Investors, I think, I don't think there'll be any investor out there, equity or debt, who will say, I don't want to invest in healthcare. So it was always an important sector, but now the importance of it has only grown manifold. But the actuals, the solution of it, how many people are able to take benefit of it? Whether it the benefit is only because of COVID right now because you're taking advantage of social distancing, whether it becomes really a habit, those all things will only will come to know once the time, time passes by. So if it's a high quality product, there'll be a lot of benefit. But I think apart from telemedicine, medical devices is a bigger segment that we can see a huge growth happening in because we are importing significant amount of it. A lot of R and D, hard of it, and software startups are growing in that space. And that sector itself can really shoot off, right? Apart from the brick and mortar hospitals, that's a very different investment. I think medical devices and with the concept of making India, that's a bigger sector that we would definitely would like to see further growth in. I think what would be important is to also sustain this over the next couple of years, right? It should not be just one shot that we had and then we go back again down. I think while it doesn't have too much effect on what we see today, but I think it's important that this kind of funding flowing in to healthcare one, both from private and government, sustains over the next few years. And I think the other thing is that healthcare, like Ankur said, it's a slightly more longer term game, right? So we need a slightly more patient capital with more experimentation coming in than most other commerce sectors. So I agree, there is no investor who would today say that, I don't know, invest in health, but there's very few who are actually doing it, right? So I think that's the disbalance that we potentially need to solve. Sure, Kunita. Sure. So Ankur, I mainly want to understand from you that given today's scenario when lots of NPS, of course, will emerge post-pandemic, do you think the idea of bad bank which Ms. Sitaraman introduced is gonna be a good idea in the current circumstances? I personally feel that really it's such a good idea because NPA handling requires a very different skill set. And it makes no sense having 15 banks having their own NPS cells and figuring out how to recover it, right? It's a very specialized game. It makes sense to get specialists on board who understand each and every sector and understand how do you recover, right? So there will be cases which are genuine cases which require further capital and or a strategic partner to revive it. And then there will be cases which are like fraud cases, right, where it is difficult to sort of, you know, it's embarrassment and everything and the promoter has maybe is on the run. So you need all kinds of ability to scale. And when you have a very large bank bank behind it, then it becomes easier for somebody to use that resources to be able to actually get it out of it because it requires very different skill sets. Every bank obviously is creating that specialized cell, but they're not really able to obviously solve for it. That is one and second is not many people are able to really take care of the perspective that they don't want to recognize NPS, right? They would like to avoid it as much as possible. And they were not really selling it to ARCs at a discount. So this way, if it goes, all banks are able to transfer it at a, at without really incurring a huge credit cost, then at least we'll know the real problem. We know it's a large problem. We have been seeing it for the last few years, but then we'll really come to know how we can actually solve for this problem, of course. And so that's why I say it's a good initiative to do. It's been been discussed, I think for like for decades or almost maybe a decade that we were discussing about it. How execution happens is how good the team they put into place. And I've seen that they have put a very great team in NIF, right? So it's not that a government doesn't know how to put a professional team in place to be able to do it. And we have enough US and European and Asia Pacific distress investors who are looking at this opportunity closely. And we have seen an NCLT process also doing well, at least in the pandemic. So all from a recipe perspective, all the ingredients are there to really take it to the next level. Finally, again, as I said in the sort of repeating it, but execution is what really matters. Absolutely. So as we are almost on the end of the time, any final sort of analysis you want to give on the budget and in terms of how things will pan out and what could make the budget better other than execution, of course, which is the key to achieving everything. I think from here on, it's sending the good sentiment is there around the budget. Like things like this M&A tax that you pointed out, all those things can become a real dampener. So we hope that there are nothing is there in the fine print that really changes our mindset towards the budget, right? So till now all panelists across various forums have echoing it's a very good budget. But I think it's important that the FM is able to give clarity around those things also, how the execution happens, right? And it's important to get the ecosystem around each sector to come and plant in it. If there are issues, they're able to react on it quickly. And if there are problems in it, they're able to solve for it instead of it getting really elongated. There are sometimes, you know, there's different between theory and practice. And that's where the point of fine print becomes important. Apart from that, I see it's being a growth oriented budget. So we should be able to come out of COVID, COVID benefit, COVID issues faster. And the benefit of this spending that they're trying to do, we believe is very, very CAPEX oriented. So there is a lot of plan benefit which should come towards our long term, right? And the kind of infrastructure concept they've been bringing like the likes of, you know, no TDS should be deducted on the dividend that is being passed to REITs and INVETs. These things are extremely positive, right? So such things are important to attract long term capital and patient capital outside of India. And that's what people are looking for. Like even the insurance sector, we saw the sector, it's increasing 49 to 74%. This is again, long term capital that they want in our country to come in. So I think on a concept, we are feeling that this is in the right direction, but we need further credit flowing to MSMEs. We need further credit flowing to smaller NBFCs. We need further credit coming to the banks so they can start lending again. There's right now a lot of them are setting a liquidity. So all that kickstart is required with the economy. So it's important that those things start happening. And I think like bank privatization again is a very good thing to do. We have too many public sector banks. They have merged them over a period of time, but still it's not changing the mindset that there is a certain PSU culture that we need to come out. And our private sector banks have shown that they can without incurring huge NPA costs keep growing, you know, on a positive direction and create good ROE for their investors. So, and we are a credit hungry country. So there is always an opportunity for it. And when we're talking about credit, the DFC part also was quite interesting. Let's see how that also get implemented. Sure. So thank you very much for joining us on this live coverage of budget 2021. Indeed, it's an interesting budget. It's been highly rated. And of course, even while it was in its presentation, it had a lot of meat, which could kickstart the economy as some of our experts have said that the likely GDP rate that they're looking to come out of it is about 15%, which is really high and extremely optimistic. And hopefully with the kind of investments that the government has promised to put into all infrastructural projects, this is going to lead a big shootup in the employment generation in the country, in the income incomes and large growth to happen in this country. And of course, if the budget keeps up to its promise, there is no stopping India to become a world power and doing some big things out there in the coming years. Thank you very much for joining us for this coverage. And hopefully we will be able to bring many such views to you, which would ban out the economy and the growth for you in the coming months as well. Thank you very much once again, uncle, for joining us today.