 That's the back man. Yes. Hello. Yes. How are you doing, sir? Well, it's 320 can't be all bad All right God almighty What what a what a regular water? What a y'all odyssey to try to get this all Straightened out when we are on air you can dispense with the gold almighty. You can call me Sam All right. Yeah, this will be edited out. All right, let's get right to it ladies and gentlemen You're listening to obsidian radio the live stream show and my very special guest today Ladies and gentlemen is the world-renowned expert on narcissism Dr. Sam Vaknen his reputation truly precedes him best-selling author of the book of malignant narcissism Excuse me. Yeah, malignant self-love narcissism revisited currently in its 10th edition and I got wind of Dr. Vaknen via a Relatively dated now Documentary on the BBC that I saw and that really intrigued me because a number of my own personal life experiences Dealing with what would be considered narcissists in black America really intrigued me So that's what got me to studying up a little bit on it from a layman's perspective And I said what the heck let me reach out reach out to Dr. Vaknen and see if he'd be willing to talk to us He's very gracious and coming on to spend a little time to talk to yours truly And the audience Dr. Vaknen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me It's kind of you. All right. Uh, let's just get right into it Because this is a primarily black audience and it's been in my humble opinion That we don't for whatever reason and I wanted to plumb the depths of that a little bit with you We don't talk about these things, you know mental health and Psychology and stuff like that for whatever reason. We just don't do that. So if you could could you explain to the audience? What narcissism is and then we can go into your particular take on it and what have you? Well narcissism has two manifestations one is healthy and one is pathological healthy narcissism starts very early in childhood first few months of life and Later on it Constitutes the foundation of self-esteem self-confidence and a well-regulated sense of self-worth the sense of self-worth include the realization of one's own limitations on the one hand and one's advantages Skills and talents on the other so a balanced view of oneself The thing is that in in the case of pathological narcissism These are people who cannot regulate the sense of self-esteem by themselves. They can't do it So what what they do instead? They reach out to other people and they ask other people to give them feedback Which will help them to regulate their sense of identity and their sense of self-esteem and self-confidence So they ask people what do you think about me? Do you think I'm a genius? Do you think I'm perfect? Do you think I'm brilliant? Do you think I'm omniscient all knowing do you think? I'm omnipotent all powerful and They expect people to tell them exactly this this process is called narcissistic supply. It is hunting for attention Cajoling and convincing and coercing if needed people to provide you with this regulatory Function which usually usually is carried on from the inside now because Because this is the exact equivalent of a drug addiction an addiction to a substance The narcissist is addicted to this attention without this attention the narcissist feels Vitiated feels annulled feels dead So so this constitutes an addiction. So so narcissists are actually junkies and they behave exactly as junkies do they lack empathy They're very exploitative They are a bit, you know antisocial not to say criminalize they are They regard as other people as mere functions or objects They are one track-minded in a single pursuit of narcissistic supply Etc. Etc. I mean just have a look at a typical junkie and you would see the narcissist Only junkie is addicted to a substance and the narcissist is addicted addicted to feedback This this used to be the prevailing view and this is the view enshrined in the diagnostic and statistical manual Which is the Bible of the psychiatric profession at least in North America Recently there are new developments in which I'm both a pioneer and heavily involved and These we are trying to We're trying to have a new fresh look at narcissism. We're trying to consider narcissism is a post traumatic condition because most narcissists Have been subjected to abuse Abusive treatment in early childhood to a traumatic environment to traumatic events and so on so forth and so we begin to think that maybe narcissism is actually not not a Personality disorder, but simply a post traumatic condition a reaction to trauma and so This plus the addiction that I mentioned plus the fact that narcissists find it a bit difficult to regulate their moods So perhaps a mood disorder And so we're beginning to to have a totally new look at narcissism with the hope of offering some kind of Behavior modification long-term behavior modification, maybe even a cure That's where the field is at right now. I See so that kind of makes sense to me because I mean very very layman's Understanding of how narcissists are kind of made so to speak they what the well from what I've read It seems like it's on the continuum on the one side It's the extreme peddler peddler peddler still Liesation of a child from parents, you know, it's so great. It's so wonderful. It's such a such a such There's that side and then on the other side are you know your classic, you know abuse, you know You know use of the children and all that sort of thing. So in either case, it's environmental So yeah, that that seems to make sense well There seems to be a genetic component. No one has discovered it either to but there seems to be some genetic component because Children exposed to the very same environment very same family very same treatment even identical twins One of them becomes a narcissist and the other doesn't Many children become many children become co-dependent or borderline, which is exactly opposite of narcissists Narcissists are incapable of accessing their emotions except negative emotions such as anger or hatred or envy Borderlines and co-dependence actually are hyper emotional. They they are skinless Borderlines and co-dependence of empathy narcissists have only called empathy the ability to scan people and Immediately spot their vulnerabilities and weak points in order to penetrate and manipulate them. So So we have identical twins one of them becomes a narcissist and the other one becomes borderline or co-dependence So we begin we believe that there might be some genetic predisposition But you're right that all narcissists have developed develop in abusive environments The only thing that people don't realize is that putting taking a child a tender child a small child the toddler and Putting him on a pedestal and encouraging in him a sense of entitlement Incommentor it with any effort or accomplishment in real life Using the child to realize the parents unfulfilled dreams and wishes and fantasies Conditioning love or conditioning the giving of love on performance And if the child doesn't perform, he's denied that love or even chastised or so all these things are also forms of abuse abuse abuse can and should be defined as the breach of the child's emerging boundaries as Children as children grow up. They try to separate from their parents and this process is called separation Individuation the child separates thereby becomes and thereafter becomes an individual But a bad parenting narcissistic parenting Make sure that the child never separates and therefore never becomes a full-fledged Individual this can be done either via the traditional so to speak methods of sexual abuse of Physicist psychological and verbal abuse and of physical abuse beating and battering or it can be done By rendering the child an extension of the parents an Integral part of the parents by merging with the child by fusing with the child And so the child can never become Independent and in both cases and both cases are abuse both cases of forms of abuse tampering and spoiling and placing the child in a pedestal idolizing the child Forcing the child to conform to preconceived notions of what the child should and should not do Imposing on the child a profession a future and a scenario all these things are I would even say more Abusing than the classic forms of abuse Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, that's that's very interesting. I see a lot of that going on in black American society I don't know how familiar you are with the ins and outs of black American life But I see a lot of that happening in black American life particularly between black mothers and their children Black mothers and their sons. I see a lot of that going on. I want to ask you about the Because narcissism when it's discussed It's discussed elsewhere. It's usually in the context of relationships marriages things that nature and it's almost always discussed in the context of a Male who is the narcissist and the female is the victim in other words, you know He's perpetrating. He's a you know pathological narcissist and she's the long-suffering victim and I'm not denying that that's true but What do we make of the ideas? My personal opinion is that we have Female narcissists as well and that doesn't seem to get as much Attention or airtime and I wanted to get your thoughts about all that When I started my work in 1995 narcissism was utterly unknown definitely online And I've written a body of work which for well over ten years has been the only resource available There was no other website for example except mine and there was no other support group except The support groups that I've established and so for ten years. I kind of monopolized the film During these ten years. I've written two distinct Corporate two distinct bodies of Articles and papers or so one of them dealt with relationships and one of them dealt with social phenomena Obviously the relationship one has been picked up and the social phenomena or writings have been ignored But narcissism is an organizing principle. It is a way of making sense of the world It is a way of imbuing institutions social interactions interpersonal interactions Organizational social units such as the family of the community or the state team Narcissism is simply all pervasive it imbues and it permeates every every type of Interface between human beings Relationships is a facet of narcissism because narcissists are not capable of intimacy Because narcissists do not love themselves. They actually love and hate themselves and be notes to them They're not self-aware of it. They're not aware of it But they are so because of that because because they lack the most basic prerequisites to loving other people Empathizing with other people and thereby maintaining healthy relationships with other people. They're incapable of intimacy and so the narcissism has a grave and Devastating an irreversible impact on on interpersonal relationships not only in marriages, but for example in the workplace That's that's true But that is reducing narcissism to One-dimensional view when narcissism is actually a much much bigger phenomenon. It's arguably The single most powerful explanatory principle there is if you take narcissism and only narcissism You can explain so much even without resorting to anything else. You can explain modern technology You can explain current politics. You can explain Marriages you can explain disintegration of communities and so the social fabric and so on so forth using only pathological narcissism as a guiding line or so Let me let me stop right there professor because you just laid out what what some would consider a kind of unified field theory True that explains a range of phenomena across domains Personal and interpersonal social collective. So so you said technology on the job Marriage, so let's just start with there How does not pathological as you like to put it? Malignant narcissism in form our technology landing on the moon social media the automobile the whole McGillard could you explain that? well Narcissism is a natural reaction at the very early stages of life To the need to be seen The baby the newborn the infant Need to be seen in order to survive Obviously if the child is not seen not noticed The child is incapable of catering to his or her own needs the child cannot feed feed himself Try to not take care of himself, etc. So Not being seen early on is tantamount to a life-threatening situation Right life is about being seen the precondition for growing up and becoming an adult is that you're seen in childhood We carry this need to be seen well into adulthood We want to be noticed we want to be seen and so on But what do you do when there's a population explosion? What do you do when you compete with seven point six billion other people for attention? For scarce attention ever more scarce because of the information glut What do you do then you try to stand out and you try to stand out in every which way possible because? Primordialy out ofistically Primitively Primitively you feel that if you're not noticed and you're not seen you are as good as dead It is it is a death-defying act Narcissism is a death-defying act So you try to stand out and try to stand out by with the way via the way you dress the way you speak your ideas or beliefs your actions your and so You this would lead this leads to escalation and radicalization because You know you're competing with seven point six other billion other people and they all are doing essentially the same thing So you need to you need to be different you need to be unique the emphasis is on uniqueness at any cost now Obviously this sits well With the values of our current civilization our current civilization for example emphasizes competitiveness It emphasizes ambition it emphasizes ruthlessness Emphasizes materialism emphasizes Possessions and accomplishments and it's it's quantitative and numerical civilization as opposed to previous civilization which have been qualitative, so and Our civilization telly as well six well with the need to be seen it encourages The need to be seen if any then if you are seen it's considered to be an accomplishment hence the celebrity culture everything you see around you the technology reflect all the technologies that we see around us reflect this Fundamental need to be seen and the values that correspond To it you mentioned the landing of the moon What was the what was the landing on the moon landing on the moon on the moon was the one upmanship Race between the United States and the USSR Who's gonna get who has who's gonna get there first? Yeah, it was it was It was an utterly narcissistic act by the way in act with extremely dubious scientific value a gigantic essentially waste of resources on a symbol oh Come on doc. We got Tang out of it Yeah, right So I'm a physicist by the way, so whatever I didn't know that yeah so it's It was it was simple as the exact equivalent of buying the luxury car or a flashy, you know flashy clothing or apartment or whatever so So, so let me just walk this back real quick. So 1957 comes the Russians put the Sputnik one in in the space and orbit It's the end of the Eisenhower era Kennedy is John F. Kennedy is elected 1960 and it's inaugural address. He makes it clear. We're gonna put man on the moon You know before the decade ends and you're saying that's all really just a Narcissistic display between the United States and in the Soviet Union. It was not disguised It was in the open the United States clearly was rattled by the fact that Sputnik pinged Washington as it passed above it over it Is that I mean it was the USSR and and the and the United States were arm wrestling Arm wrestling in with the greatest with grace audience ever by a television and so on so That's an example of a narcissistic act But on a global scale on a global scale very often though we tend to I think Put the horse before the cart or the horses and carts are a bit obsolete wherever I come from but still With we tend to put the horse before the cart. We tend to say that technology creates narcissism. That's That's manifestly untrue Narcissism creates technology technology technologies cater to deeply deep set psychological needs It is grassroots pressure that yields one way or another technology and So it's not that Facebook created the selfie created narcissism. It's that narcissism groundswell of narcissism as documented in the studies of Campbell twinge and other psychologists There's a groundswell of narcissism that over the last 30 years from 1987 to 2016 Well documented years at least among college college freshman and college students these groundswell of narcissism drove technology and so very often technology is a mirror that reflects belatedly Underlying unconscious sometimes hidden collective currents and I think the biggest current by far is Narcissism today that has been identified long ago not by me, but by Christopher lash who in 1974 wrote the book the cultural narcissism the cultural narcissism and so All our current technologies I think without exception Cater to narcissism enhances enhanced it surf the wave of narcissism augment narcissism Are synergetic with narcissism or blatantly? promulgate and propound narcissism as a value and so To any everything you've mentioned actually starting with a car and ending with the with social media Has to do with narcissism Because Mark Zuckerberg Founded Facebook while he was still a student at Harvard and Originally the original intent was to it was kind of sort of I don't know why we're called a dating app But it definitely was an app for nerdy guys to rate hot or not women on the site That's how I was originally Conceived my understanding of it. Well, not the Internet. The Internet was conceived by DARPA, which was a Pentagon Defense agency, right? I'm talking about Facebook. I'm sorry not the internet Facebook, right Facebook Yes, Facebook was originally conceived as an as an app. It was limited for for its first few years It was limited only to college College seniors if I remember correctly, right and it was not open It wasn't public only if you were a college senior you could sort of plug in or become a subscriber But even even the web address was different. It wasn't Facebook.com It was I think that Facebook or something like that.com, right? And so yes, it was a centrally a combo dating app and nerd exchange Absolutely true and in this sense, of course reflected the underlying values and psychodynamics of college students in the United States And as I repeat as as has been amply documented between 1987 and 2016 The narcissism has quintupled Pathological narcissism has quintupled in this population during this period So there's no way to say that these apps have not been designed with narcissism in mind or at least in the unconscious Now what what is the so so? Zuckerberg and his compatriots were narcissists looking to achieve what with Facebook. What would they look into a cheat? No, I don't think they they said one evening and said listen, we are narcissists We have to we have to construct an app little cater or resonate with our narcissism And they would they would deny they would deny that they are narcissists because if you look at the early early Pronounsments by the founders of Twitter and Facebook and so on so forth. They are all very altruistic very socially aware very, you know Social justice warrior types. Yeah, social justice unifying the world. Zuckerberg was talking about one world and Twitter Twitter the Twitter founder Regretted the fact that the hundred and forty character limit won't allow the expression the unbridled expression of deep emotions And what have you it was all very touchy-feely But what I'm saying is that the design principles and definitely the algorithms chosen Reflected the psychodynamic composition the souls of the people who invented them, right? And one major component was narcissism unbeknownst to them. I believe fully. I don't see any malicious intent here. I'm not a conspiracy theorist But unbeknownst to them the fact that they were already highly narcissistic Infected because it's it's a virus narcissism Nazism can be amply described using techniques from epidemiology as a kind of viral infection so these people were heavily infected and They it's like if you would ask zombies to design an app the app would contain Features and so on which would cater to the needs of zombies. It's it's inevitable. It's simply inevitable and the I Think that's precisely what happened Over time so it's a social media today because it's been around social media as we understand it It's been around better part of a decade. No give or take so are you suggesting that this social media YouTube? Twitter Instagram Facebook and so on are you suggesting doctor that not only was it created by narcissists unbeknownst to their own impulses? But it's also creating more narcissists Well to start with the people who created all social media without a single exception were white They were young There were schizoids with exception of soccer bird, but soccer bird didn't really create Facebook You said schizoid as in schizoid parent Not schizofrin schizoid means people who are introverted people who are not very good in society and Don't feel loners loners We all know that coders and programmers are basically, you know solitary very solitary people. Yeah, yeah So they were they were white. It's extremely important by the way, they were white. It's a crucial point The apps are white apps They don't sit well with crowds in China in Russia Consequently in China and Russia China and Russia have their own Facebook's and And so on so Russians are white. I mean, I mean if you stood next to Vladimir Putin, I couldn't tell the difference Russians are white, but their culture is largely Asian No, not so I was I was starting to say that they were white. They were young They were mostly schizoid with the exception of soccer break who didn't really invent the technology He just leveraged it for commercial gains. So they were schizoid. They were narcissistic. They were Western It's a very crucial point. They were Western and so on They created an app in their own image like God and they felt good God like because they're narcissists They felt divine in some way and their their goals. I mean, can you imagine a college dropout talking about uniting the world? Isn't this grandiose? Isn't it utterly grandiose? Yeah, that's that's a telltale sign and narcissism, whatever. Yeah, of course it is I mean, it's an utterly grandiose goal Coming up with an app, mind you So a and then when these apps were unleashed on the world Because of the dominance of American infrastructure in the early Internet They became kind of default apps. We call it First mover advantage. They had a first mover advantage early adopters and so on so forth had no choice But to latch on to these apps and so they they accumulated a critical mass which gave them Network effect so gave them an advantage commercial and competitive edge edge but later on a People around the world started to feel extremely uncomfortable and ill it is with these apps Because it was clear that these apps reflect American values American the American ethos so-called the American dream or the American nightmare depending where you are and and reflected a Slice of Americana, which was young college educated white narcissistic schizoid nerdy Socially in apt sometimes a social or anti-social et cetera et cetera It isn't well such a such a such a ticking off all the identity politics You know identify our boxes. We have to include mail as well. Yes and mail of course man. Absolutely so This is what I'm saying that Technologies and especially modern technologies and so on they didn't create this these they didn't create narcissism They were created by these profiles. They didn't create the profiles. They were created by these profiles And exactly like in the fashion industry where the bulk of the fashion industry was created by gay men That's right, and they imposed their Aesthetic standard their beauty ideal on women all over the world true true trying to convert women into prepubescent boys And so exactly the same happened in modern internet technology These people try to convert the entire world in their image They try to to render people less Sociable and that's the irony in the in the phrase social media. It's absolutely a social media They try to add people to screens and screen time rather than to intimate relationships because intimate relationships Compete with screens on eyeballs and on monetizing eyeballs I mean if you if you look at your girlfriend, you're not looking at Facebook, right? So if you're looking at your girlfriend, you're not looking at Facebook. So your girlfriend is competition to Facebook period I mean, there's no no no way to debate this. It's indisputable, right? You have a limited time on this earth either you dedicate this time to Mark Zuckerberg or you dedicate this time to your family so They try to convert everyone to be a social to be a loner not to have intimate relationships to be male oriented or male dominated to be white in in the sense of values middle-class White values to be a man. Are you saying are you seriously saying that that a middle-class value is a white value? Of course middle-class values have been created by whites exclusively over centuries What are you saying that they are not who created them? You have adopted the American dream and the American ethos which is essentially a pure puritan 17th century ethos the the protestant work ethic But you have as Weber called it you have adopted it in large part because social mobility in the United States entailed The adoption of these values if you didn't adopt these values you could not be socially mobile Right, and then but this is a big point of contention in black America I don't know if you know this or not, but this is a big point today to this day a huge point of contention Within black America itself if you go on social media, what have you the idea of a black person using me for example, it's somebody like me who was a 22 for 22 years right out of high school a skilled blue-collar tradesmen and worked hard and and played by the rules and Middle-class values and all the rest I will be regarded today as an uncle Tom as a sellout That I'm that I'm a Oreo, you know, I'm I'm black on the outside, but white on the inside I'm you know, I'm a traitor to the race and all this sort of thing and that the outlaw the drug dealer corner boy Miss Korean knucklehead. He's somehow authentically black Well That's your question is a value judgment and I'm a scientist. I don't deal with values. I deal with facts It is a fact that the set of values that comprise the so-called American dream and the American ethos This set of values is exclusively white Not all right, not only is it exclusively white it's specific in time and period of history 17th century It's protestant. It's also protestant not Jewish or anything and so on so forth Now everyone who comes to the United States has to adhere to these values and adopt them if they want to be socially mobile right and Upward mobile and if they want to conform This this creates another problem and again, I'm not I'm not making any value judgment I'm not saying that if you adopt these values you're a traitor to your race because I have no idea what you're talking about Why would your race not adopt the values of another race? What's the problem with that? We do it all the time I mean, well, you know in black America is the idea of cultural appropriation the idea that uh Rap music for example, this is ridiculous example. I'm only using anyway rap music hip-hop with something I know very well if Sam Vaknen becomes a rapper tomorrow you could be accused by some in black American society as Culturally appropriating rap music because Sam Vaknen and he's a Israeli Jew. How dare he take the black? Cultural expression and make money from it and such or so forth. That's that's the argument I think that's ridiculous, but but that's the argument. That's the core of of the Nazi ideology. Absolutely That was the core of of exclusionary ideologies such as nazism The belief that cultures are sharply delineated demarcated And that they are proprietary in other words that the culture belongs to a group of people Well, and this group of people share a common genetics So this is a racist Nazi idea Which by the way Was stolen from the jews because Because if you if you read It's already yes, and there's a famous book by by george steiner. It's called the transportation to san cristobalo of ah The book is an imaginary imaginary piece of fiction where a group of mosad agents The intelligence agency of israel a group of mosad agents capture Adolf Hitler he's discovered in some jungles in paraguay or some other Cuts for second place and he's kidnapped by these mosad agents and he's transported back to a city called san cristobalo on the way to israel And on the way His captors the mosad agents were jews of course and israelis They converse with adolf hitler And they asked him why did you do it to us? Why did you why did you embark on the holocaust? Why did you kill us? And he said listen i've learned everything I've learned everything from you guys I mean i just took your ideas you were the ones who came up with the idea That there's a chosen people And that the chosen people is a genetically based category You were the ones you were exclusionary you excluded the rest of the world You said that you are unique you're chosen by god you are on a mission and so on and so forth I just you know i just imitated you i admire you actually said Which is true in reality by the way hitler admired the jews so so um I mean to say That any genetically linked group of people genetic group of people which which share some genetics Have a proprietary exclusive hold on cultural treasures Is absolutely a racist exclusionary nazi ideology absolutely Which which is let me i use hip hop as an example Now i know a lot about hip hop a dj and turntablas since i was a teenager And i knew for a fact, you know because i'm old enough to To i'm 50 so i'm old enough to know about hip hop's early beginnings hip hop was never a black thing There was always different cultures and races And genders for that matter both men and women that were involved in hip hop from its earliest beginnings So when i listened to these black folks today attempting to say, you know Dustin's so individual is culturally appropriating our music or our hairstyles or whatever else that's ridiculous That's that's utterly ridiculous Every there is no There is no racially pure group the concept of race is idiotic scientifically speaking speaking There is no racially pure group in the world And especially so Black americans who intermingled with whites forcibly sometimes raped and so on Intermingled with other populations and so on so there is no there is no genetically pure group of people And even if they were which there isn't even if there were such a group Its contributions would have been to mankind not to itself If blacks gave the world hip hop We should all we should all be grateful for it And we should all benefit from it and we should all practice it The jews 22.3 percent of all noble prize winners are jews that's right Jews comprise 1.9 percent of global the global population And yet yet we have won 22.3 percent of all noble prizes And by the way, if there is any group on earth that can claim somehow to be racially Mildly pure it would be the jews but I would have been shocked had any jewish group said well all our discoveries in medicine for example belong to us And if any black in any ghetto in any city Uses our vaccines, you know vaccinations. We have developed all the medicines. We have created or You know, they are appropriating our cultural heritage because we discovered these things. I mean, it's ours And when you see how ridiculous this sounds, you know, yeah, it is black doctors practice jewish medicine every single day of the year Black doctors read jewish literature. It's called the bible, right I mean black blacks Read jewish literature every day of the year in episcopal churches and Baptist churches and so on Right, it's called it's called the bible. We wrote it. It's ours. You're appropriating our literature Yeah, are you serious? Doc, I know, you know who it is because speaking of narcissism I know who you know, she is lady by the name of kim Kardashian Now, let me tell you something in black american society among black women. She is reviled And the reason why for one of the reasons why Is because one major reason is because she snag a very successful man in kanye west who's black Okay, so that there's that but but in and many black women hold the view That as soon as a black man becomes successful famous wealthy rich, etc They Exactly so there's that but then the other piece along with that is kim Kardashian is She has the aesthetics of a black woman, okay big behind and you know the whole bit and and and black women really don't like that They they feel that she has a hijacked Culturally appropriated I swear to god, this is what they believe you have to take my word for it You can look up on you know in the black sectors of youtube and facebook and all the rest This is what black women honestly believe that kim Kardashian and white women like her Have essentially hijacked elements of black womanhood And used it with which to poach Highly desirable black men. That's the argument Right Thereby depriving black women of their natural genetic pool and and pool of wealth and resources So it's an unfair competition as we call it in business. I'm a professor of finance among other things So in finance we call it unfair competition. It's when Outsiders competing unfair ways on scarce resources Well mating isn't a competition. We would agree with that, right? I mean that's just a Darwinian thing Mating is is a competition. We're guys. We have to compete against other guys for desirable females Why would it be why wouldn't it be the other way around? I mean wouldn't the idea The very idea that women don't have to compete or in this case black women don't have to compete But black men do isn't that a narcissistic idea? The relationship between black women and black men Is compounded by history especially slavery and by The role of black men in family formation throughout Throughout decades and generations. So that's a separate question which we can deal with if you wish a bit later I want though. I want though to introduce you to a concept developed by Ziegman Freud Who was a Jew? Ziegman Freud developed a concept called the narcissism of small differences It's an extremely interesting concept Freud said that groups of people hate each other And cloak this hatred in genetic garb To say like we belong to the same race or same nation or same something, you know same same collective But essentially he said it's basic hatred men to men hatred. It's just that we tend to Aggregate it into collectives and pretend that the collective has some objective Some objective traits and objective qualities that separate it from other collectives and justify the hatred But he said the hatred hatred tends to increase The more similar we are Not the more dissimilar we are but the most similar we are He discovered in his studies That people who are fundamentally dissimilar don't look alike. Don't speak the same language Don't compete for the same jobs. Don't share the same public spaces, etc, etc These people don't really hate each other Do not hate each other But when people begin To look more and more alike to sound more and more alike to share same institutions the same public spaces, etc They begin to hate each other virulently And so there is the concept. I don't need to tell you of the apity apity negro the apity black Which is It was a silly to me. I mean, it's it's ridiculous. There's this. Anyway, go ahead So this is exactly um, um manifestation expression of zygmonds freud's narcissism of small differences. It seems That when minorities, especially suppressed minorities, especially minorities, which are considered inherently inferior One way or another when these minorities dare To break out of the stereotype To acquire education to move into gentrified neighborhoods to compete with the with the majority on jobs Etc etc when they become more similar to the majority As socially upward mobile They dress the same talk the same sound the same have studied in the same educational institutions Compete for the same jobs and sometimes get the jobs, etc, etc When they become similar The hatred grows One could have predicted One could have predicted based on zygmonds freud's work that hatred towards blacks Will become much more virulent and much more institutionalized As blacks progress Make progress And therefore one could have predicted in the 1960s during the civil rights movement That the situation in the in the the situation 50 years later today Would be much worse much worse in many respects Then for example in the 1970s or 80s and Based on this work By zygmonds freud and of course the the major example of this the most well-known example are the jews As long as the jews kept to themselves as long as they dressed distinctively As long as they maintained their own educational institutions exclusive institutions As long as they resided in ghettos and were not allowed out of the ghettos As long as they were allowed to exercise only a specific set of professions and vocations They were not allowed they were allowed only to lend money and you know trade And so as long as there were in other words confined quarantine in a way There was no real hatred. I mean, there were pogroms here and there people were, you know, But we were talking about like 30 people 50 people 100 people The minute the jews Were emancipated the minute they were allowed out of the ghettos. They started to wear ties and suits They started to graduate from academic institutions together with non-jews gentle gentiles And then they started to compete on jobs and then they started to gain an advantage over the majority It was then that the holocaust that happened The holocaust holocaust was a direct reaction to apiti jews jews who didn't know their proper place jews who tried to look like germans sound like austrians behave like the french eat and drink like I don't know the swedes That was not the place of the jews They should not have been like that and stole the majorities majorities because every single nation in europe participated in the holocaust The majorities of european nations coalesced And worked together to kill the jews The same happened with the blacks civil rights movement led to a partial emancipation not total but partial emancipation So blacks began to study well with the with the you know there was segregation then segregation was gone So blacks began to study with whites Then they began to the graduation rates climbed up Blacks began to move into white only neighborhoods blacks began to compete for jobs blacks became mayors blacks became outspoken intellectuals and so on they became they became too white for their own good And this and this provoked the narcissism of small differences The virulent hatred that we are witnessing now Black lives matter is reacting. This is a movement that is reacting to true Problems not to imagine everyone there. There is no black paranoia There it's I mean this it's true that police departments all over the united states are institutionally Assassinating blacks. That's not paranoia And so but I want to compare it and connect it to narcissism via the work of zygmunt Freud Hmm Ladies and gentlemen, you're listening to obsidian radio the live stream show. I'm your host for me I'm sitting now. He got an exclusive energy interview with the world renowned expert on malignant narcissism Uh, dr. Sam vatman. Um, we conducted this interview. He's all the way in uh, his hometown of scott. Yay The Macedonia I had to learn how to pronounce that properly Well And we're having a heck of a conversation about Narcissism and its various permutations and iterations how it manifests itself Personally interpersonally socially Collectively globally in terms of tech in terms of relationships mating the whole gamut and we're going to continue uh, uh, dr. Vak and you uh Was talking about and I and I wrote down to my notes here, uh, the 21st century Which I refer to based on the work. I've read of you and others I consider the 21st century the narcissist century And uh, it sounds like what you're saying here seems to be in alignment with that you even said that, uh There were entire occupations and career Paths that was specifically suited and geared for the narcissistic personality. Could you could you speak a little bit to that? Yeah, I think as I've said before that Uh, our civilization is founded on essentially narcissistic values or values that would tend to reward Would tend to encourage narcissistic behaviors Because they would be adaptive behaviors. They would lead to good outcomes And of course the the best example would be donald trump Donald trump is president of the united states There is no doubt in my mind and in the mind of dozens of other narcissism excellence That he is a malignant narcissist bordering on psychopath And yet he became president of united states So one could say looking at the situation objectively. Remember, I don't judge. I'm a scientist One could say one could say that donald trump's behavior and personality Um are adaptive in the sense that they led him to success They led him to accomplishments unprecedented accomplishments in parlorland so in uh, july I think 2017 my memory doesn't fade me new scientists, which is one of the two leading science magazines in the world the other one being scientific america New scientists had a cover story and the cover story was Parents teach your children to be more narcissistic Hmm and new scientists explained this provocative front cover expose Explained it by saying Well, the world has changed The world now rewards The world looks positively on Narcissistic and psychopathic traits and behaviors There are scholars all over the world. Kevin Dutton comes to mind in the united kingdom and others They are scholars of all over the world who now begin to say that narcissism Is actually a productive adaptation and they call it the productive narcissists or the high high functioning narcissists They say that in certain professions and in certain positions, for example, politician leader The leader of a nation or for example surgeon medical surgeon. They say, uh police law law enforcement judicial system They say that in certain professions being a narcissist or being a psychopath endows one With a relative Edge with a competitive advantage So for example, if you are the leader of a nation and you have to send people to be killed in iraq or in afghanistan Of course as a psychopath, it would be you know, it would be much easier because you don't have empathy You don't have conscience. You don't have your ruthless your reckless So a psychopath is much better suited to lead a nation in war at war Um psychopath is also much better suited to perform operations on human bodies because you have to cut them open Well, it's a it's an act of butchery technically speaking And narcissists would be better suited to lead Big corporations to be the chief executive officer of fortune 500 corporations because the narcissist Um has a kind of view that emphasizes Material and quantitative accomplishments at any cost has no empathy Or or has actually called empathy which allows him to Dissern the weaknesses and so on in competitors and to take advantage of them Etc etc etc the idea that narcissism and psychopathy are actually Evolutionary adaptations that actually people who are narcissists and psychopaths will survive will have better survival rates And will be able to pass on their genes. They will be able to better mate They because they are much better adopted to the world as it is today That's a newly emergent idea and not entirely laughable or Reasonable and if this is true and I happen to believe it's true Then indeed the next century will be the century of the narcissists Book there was a book published Called the narcissism epidemic I coined the phrase narcissism epidemic in 95 and I was gratified to see it finally in print With the major academic institution. So the the claim in that book Is that narcissism is an epidemic. It's on the rise and so on so forth I added later the touch That narcissism or the spread of narcissism can be easily construed or studied Via epidemiology the narcissism is a kind of virus We have the concept of meme meme is uh is like a gene But it's verbal. It's an idea. How ideas how ideas spread Narcissism is not is a narcissism is not is a construct. It's not only an idea It's an idea. It's a value system It's a set of prescriptive behaviors. It tells you how to behave So when you are a narcissist You have a set of values You have a set of ideas which support these values a philosophy of narcissism And you have a set of prescriptions how to behave to obtain maximum beneficial results It's very tempting to be a narcissist Is a total solution? You don't need to look beyond narcissism In this sense, therefore Narcissism is an ideology akin to communism akin to capitalism I think what will happen in the 21st century is competition between narcissistic ideologies such as anglo-saxon capitalism And non-narcissistic ideologies And I think social media for example Will will Participate in this global conflict. It will be an ideological world war global war I think for example one of the predictions I make Is that the rise of social media is at its end? I think we are reaching the phase that in virology the study of viruses We call self limitation. That's when the virus stops infecting people mysteriously Just stops because if the virus continues to infect people there will be no people left and the virus itself will die Die out so the virus has mechanism to stop itself from infecting people Similarly, I think the social media Is now at this self limitation stage and will stop at that point The world population will be will be divided into Those who are addicted to social media conditioned by social media And unable to interact with the world except via social media or technology and those who abstain from social media untethered Go back to basics the retro And then we will have these two populations and the first population Around two billion people mostly western mostly white The first population will adopt the narcissistic ideology It's narcissistic ideology is an amalgam of capitalism Selfishness ruthlessness If you want to see the prime ideologist of narcissism that would be donald trump So don't trumpism if you want so this group that uses social media Will be trumpist. It will be narcissistic capitalist. It will also be white predominantly white And all others Will be will be fighting a rearguard action Against the narcissistic ideology. I'm saying rearguard action because narcissism is going to win It's going to win simply because it has no inhibitions No restraints and no constraints. It has no empathy. It has no compassion. It has no Holdbacks. It has no I mean it's unbridled. It's ruthless. It's reckless. So of course, narcissism will win Um I just want Yeah, I just want to jump in there because uh, you said a number of things with regard to trump and the american presidency I just wanted to push back a little bit play a little bit of devil's advocate I'm not denying what you're saying with regard to trump lends itself to narcissism and they you said even bordering on Psychopathy. Okay, that's fair. But what do you say about uh, bill clinton? or Barack Obama. I mean these were Barack Obama said when he was inaugurated Uh, or I should say rather when he won the presidency election night. He said he wanted to transform america Isn't that a grandiose claim to make of a nation of over 300 million people? two years before obama was uh Was nominated as candidate presidential candidate two years before I wrote an article barack obama narcissistic narcissist or merely narcissistic huh This article was replicated on 1 million websites And appeared in in numerous print publications and so on. So you're preaching to the choir I was the first by far to suggest that barack obama is a narcissist I also agree with you that Current the current crop of leadership when I say current. I mean More or less from the 1980s The current crop of leadership is increasingly more and more and more narcissistic and psychopathic And that is not a phenomenon limited to the united states political leadership Is there is a rearguard action political leadership is is not a harbinger. It's a follower Hmm political leadership is exactly like technology. It reflects Underlying social and psychodynamic trends. It doesn't create them I adolf hitler was a creature of his time not the other way And so is donald trump and so was bill clinton and so is so was barack obama But if you look elsewhere if you look outside the confines of the united states Right and americans are very provincial because yes, they have this continent and they never look out That's right. If you look outside, you will see that the world is interested with donald trump's You have bolsona go in In brazil you have erdogan in turkey. You have put in in russia You have uh Duterte in the philippines They're all trumps want to be trumps have been trumps would be trumps Trump is merely the culmination and reification of narcissistic social trends And and psychological trends, but I agree with you that he had he had predecessors And he is much more virulent than barack obama in this sense. He's a malignant narcissist While barack obama was merely a grandiose narcissist But yes, both of them were narcissists. I agree for me. I am the one who said it I'm the one who said it first Okay, so then steve bannon Who y'all bright bart fame some would say infamy and a former white house staff for very close advisor to trump He would be right that trump represents of this global Populous surge that you would argue Is really just following behind the globalist surge in narcissism overall and these guys are just manifestations of it There is there was a brewing that the A battle was brewing between the elites the global elites and the and the masses The elites were constantly humiliating the masses. They created what we call in psychology narcissistic injury The elites treated the masses as dispensable as trashy as low bro as as retards as and And they were stealing and they were rapacious. We see it in income inequality when we study income inequality. I mean Amazing things the hundreds hundred richest people on earth Have wealth equal to the lowest 3.9 billion people There has been and this battle has been going on for well over 70 years immediately started immediately after second world war And finally the masses have had it They simply have had it but they have had it Narcissistically and that's the difference because I think we're entering a period Which is the exact equivalent of the period In europe between 1789 and 1917 In 1789 we had the french revolution In 1917 we had the russian revolution and in between these two revolutions All the social institutions In europe collapse or vanished that includes empires Some nation states the aristocracy Everything fell apart Because the masses have risen but the masses have risen In that period between 1789 and 1917 the masses have risen for economic Reasons the masses have risen for ideological reasons the masses have risen Because they wanted to redistribute wealth or because they Were fighting for social justice or I mean the the Reasoning the driving force behind these revolutions Behind these 150 years of revolutions the driving force was altruistic Not narcissistic Mind you all these revolution revolutions ended badly They all ended with with suppression dictatorship mass genocide. I mean they ended badly But the intentions were good Everything if you read the literature of that period it's all altruistic It's all about help helping humanity. Well, well, well the major revolution that came out of that period you mentioned 1917 Marxism Yes, communism to be more precise. And so yeah communism Communism was essentially an altruistic ideology It was implemented of course horribly and so on but it was it's it's altruistic if you read the text They're concerned with the welfare of fellow beings And that's the difference between that period of revolutions and the period of revolutions that we're entering now Because make no mistake about it. What's happening today in the world These are revolutions the masses are attacking the elites The masses are attacking the elites in a variety of ways The masses are have written their own encyclopedia. It's called wikipedia It's a non non elite encyclopedia. It's an anti expert encyclopedia It's encyclopedia edited by teenagers It's it's a rebellion against elitism against authority against expertise Wikipedia, so there are many ways to rebel and many types of revolutions and the elites are In my view an extinct species. They just don't realize it yet And there will be bloodshed a lot of it soon We are entering I as I told you a period akin to that period, but the huge difference is this The revolutions of of the first period I mentioned were all altruistic The revolutions that we we are having now They are all selfish and narcissistic and atomized In other words, these are the revolutions we're having now are revenge revolutions They're revolutions intended to revenge to avenge the narcissistic injury the humiliation The the helplessness the impotence the And they are they are revolutions that involve Antisocial sentiments and psychopathic actions And they are revolutions that are largely passive aggressive not only aggressive So they include sabotage and undermining And they are they are sick pathologized pathological revolutions And they will lead to a sick pathologized world much more than today So I'm I wanted to ask you about this. We talked about this briefly in the run up to today's interview The women's march here in the united states and my understanding is that it's not only Spread across the country. My understanding is that it's gone to other countries at this point since the first one when uh President trump was inaugurated a year over a year ago. So you have this women's march And the founders of the march were a black woman a palestinian woman A white gentile woman, I guess you could say and a jewish woman. Those were the originals And then the jewish woman was ousted By the black and the palestinian woman the black woman attended Louis Farrakhan's Savior's Day event of the nation of islam and chicago that made the big news And now it's been completely called off on the grounds that the leadership of the women's march is anti-semitic They they got together in reaction To donald trump's election which goes to your point about narcissistic injury Revolutions of revenge and all the rest of it It seems to me the what i've read about this women's march It's completely. I mean the narcissism is off the chain, but I wanted to get your expert opinion on that well That's precisely what i'm saying the future will not be a clash between narcissists and anti-narcissists It will be a clash between narcissists elite narcissists and mass narcissists But they were all be united by an organizing principle and an ideology of narcissists Wow Simply different types of narcissists lowbrow narcissists uneducated narcissists ignorant narcissists against i don't know Harvard graduate narcissists corporate narcissists against shareholder activist narcissists politic politician narcissists against Electrode narcissists, but everyone will be a narcissist. It will be the explanatory Meaning imbuing principle it will be the overarching ideology and it will merge with capitalism So capitalism itself will be narcissized if you wish Everything will be narcissism The question is meaningless. It's like asking about the middle ages in the middle ages You had many competing factions many Countries were at war. There were no countries, but never mind many regimes were at war Many many noblemen were fighting each other many essentially families I mean the game of thrones was based on the war of the roses Yeah, so you literally have families competing against each other in different countries You had all kinds of conflicts. You had religious conflicts political conflicts So but all these conflicts all the conflicts without a single exception Took place within an ideological space within an ideological sphere, which was religion Right or all of them accepted Catholicism But all of them all of them were christian When when a was fighting b b claimed to have been the true christian and a claimed to have been the true christian It's not that a was christian and b was the antichrist. They were both christians fighting each other And and the same will be now The masses will attack the elites kill the elites that will be blotched. You will see the masses will attack the elites But the masses will be narcissists and the elites will be narcissists The masses will will promulgate and propound and pro-fair and propose narcissistic principles And they will fight the elites who will also promulgate and pro-fair narcissistic principles Narcissism is the new god Narcissism is the new religion That's what i'm trying to say. It's the unifying principle Everyone will agree that to be a narcissist is good Because it's adaptable because it gives good outcomes because you should be a narcissist or the only question will be That the dividing the loot the spoils It will be a fight over the spoils not over the principle of it Okay, so so the the women's march piece just followed up on that So you have this women's march And i'm not sure how how familiar you are with the theory of intersectionality was developed here in the united states By a black feminist scholar legal scholar. I've always seen intersectionality, uh, doctor as explained in this way Giving black women special victim status. Nobody has it harder than the american black woman Nobody and so therefore because she's the least You know filling the blank and the most what's up on and all the rest of it She should get special dispensation and favors and rights. So i'm seeing these feminists In in this late date And they're they're basically tearing each other apart over who is the most agreed Like this whole issue with the you know, the jewish woman founder Of of women's marches. Well, you can't be in it because you know, you you're a jew And the jews did this and did that to black people and all the rest of that was the argument So so so yeah, so I wanted to ask you Because I want to get into this discussion that you had with richard granite about the future being female and all that I want to ask you what is the future of feminism? If indeed Narcissism is the order of the day in the 21st century. Yeah, I tell you I'm gonna go ahead and say it I think feminism at this point is bullshit. I just think it's bullshit. It's it's run out of gas All of the aims have been achieved In black american society black women will tell anybody that's that that will bend an ear to listen How educated they are how accomplished they are they got it going on? So if that's the argument What else is there for y'all to be bitching about? Your response Well, first of all The distinction between narcissism and victimhood is artificial One of the major shortcuts to to achieving narcissistic goals Is professional victimhood So if you If you if you self-impute victimhood If you attribute to yourself victimhood Immediately under the current culture of political correctness and so on And with academic support immediately you're entitled to special treatment One of the diagnostic criteria of narcissistic personality disorder In the diagnostic and statistical manual is The narcissist feels entitled to special treatment Did you hear that fellas for the for those listening right now Did you hear what the doctor just said world recognized expert on malignant narcissism? He's citing the bible of psychiatric disorders the diagnostic Statistical manual one of the telltale signs of a narcissist textbook is the idea that you you are deserving of special treatment This is what he's saying with regard to feminism the women's march And I would take it a step further and say black feminism or we can get into that later continue, please doctor So any any self attribution of victimhood On a professional basis. I call it professional victimhood and I The difference between the distinction between professional victimhood and a true status of which is true state of victimhood Is that professional victimhood is deriving benefits from your victimhood? Not seeking to rectify it but seeking to eternalize it Seeking to enshrine it Because it's beneficial. It's an adaptation That the true victim wants to reverse her victimhood wants to stop being a victim The professional victim Seeks to enshrine and perpetuate her victimhood because it's useful and mind you profitable In this sense professional victimhood Is a manifestation of narcissism because it's about entitlement and it's not a telltale sign. It's a diagnostic criterion That's how we diagnose narcissism so Feminism has a very long history much longer than most people know it started effectively almost 200 years ago Uh, and not in the united states, but in the united kingdom So Feminism had two strands all along from the very beginning There was the real victim strand And the entitled or professional victim strand again the narcissistic and non narcissistic The real victims because women have been victimized for many thousands of years that happens to be true They have been victimized. They have been treated as chateau as property. They've been sold traded. They have been enslaved There was a woman slavery movement the biggest in history far far bigger than the black than the way black americans have been treated Far far bigger than classic slavery in the states the caribbean and so on So women have been slaves. They are still slaves in many countries. I mean afghanistan, iran and so Right, they have been they have been enslaved and so 200 years ago There was a backlash against this state of victimhood and the demand for equal rights voting rights Property rights, etc. That's okay. That's absolutely legitimate It's the equivalent of the civil rights movement in the 1960s and that has been the healthy face or feminism The real the victims Women victims who wanted to not be victims anymore They wanted actually Feminism to go away because it would no longer be necessary and then each hiking on this riding on this Parasiting on it There was militant feminism Militant feminism is about professional victimhood Hmm These are women who perpetuate the state of victimhood, etc, etc Because it endows them with benefits And it endows them with benefits in a variety of settings Not the list of which is akkadim Where are there are there all kinds of kakamani? Departments teaching god knows what I mean feminist god knows what So There's a lot of money in feminism Vested money there's a lot of money in academic study of feminism a lot of money in in all kinds of federal grants There's a lot of money. So it became an industry An industry of victimhood And so that I'm not suspected of being anti-black or anti-female Let me compare it to another industry of victimhood the holocaust Jews made a lot of money of the holocaust It's one hell of an industry very big You can you don't have to take my word for it go to the holocaust museum in washington Yeah It's big money not small The jewish state israel when it was established Received the equivalent in today's money of about five billion dollars from the germans In nine in the 1950s five years after the holocaust they didn't even wait So holocaust has always been a big industry and big money They were holocaust victims and holocaust survivors Who kept quiet kept to themselves? Try to recover and to heal the indescribable wounds of this horrible crime I'm not a holocaust in art These were the victims who wanted to be victims no more They did not want to perpetuate the holocaust in their own minds But there was an industry of lobbyist academic researchers Politicians and businessmen who benefited mightily from the holocaust to this very day Every every movement of victimhood spawns these parasites Every victim every movement of victims Not the list of which is of course the black american community Where to this very day there are professional victims Who benefit mightily from the study of slavery and and the analysis of slavery and the benefits that And blackmailing emotionally blackmailing the whites, etc, etc There are always parasites and there are always malignant expressions of victimhood The test is simple If perpetuating victimhood is profitable Then something's wrong Then something is narcissistic I want to follow up on that with this me too movement now I don't know if you're familiar with its early beginnings The early beginnings of the me too movement started with and i'm just gonna go ahead and be honest here Not making a value judgment. I'm just making an observation a truly unfortunate looking black woman by the name of torana berg torana berg founded it on the basis that she wanted to give The victims there's that word of sexual assault abuse of black women and girls They're shine. I guess you could say and the movement in her words has been hijacked By and I quote this comes from chicago sometimes i'm quoting her directly Has been her movement has been hijacked by pretty girls from hollywood So I want to ask you because I've been trying to study as much as I could about the backstory of mr. Rana berg Is that a narcissistic impulse? I mean she's been fetid at bet black girls rock She's gotten all kind of press So i'm so my so even if she's right in what you know white white pretty girls from hollywood kind of You know usurping a movement even if that's true It's not like she's unknown. It's not like her cause is unknown. I mean what more does she want? I don't even understand the The basic argument how can one hijack hijack justice If these pretty girls deserve justice the fact that they are pretty should not influence Uh, the justice that they that is meted out to them Justice is a universal good It it should be accessible to pretty girls from hollywood as it is to ugly black women I mean, I don't see why ugly black women should have a monopoly on justice As opposed as opposed to pretty so so so that would be a narcissistic impulse then well, um You know Exclusive exclusivity proprietary and so do I do I have that right or do I do I misunderstand it Listen, I'm the victim. What are you doing here? I mean, it's my space. It's my property. I'm making money out of it. I mean It's a commercial impulse. I would say maybe not so much narcissistic Although in a minute, I will I will tell you about situation of narcissism, but okay Maybe less narcissistic than commercial listen victim who this big business Holocaust is a huge business slavery is a great business. I mean how many blacks live off slavery I think both blacks live off slavery then I mean, how many blacks live off slavery? There's an if there's a there are thousands of of black professors Leaving off slavery to this. That's right. That's right. That's right. And not just them. I mean in media politics, I mean I call them the the professional black I now this is what I call them. I call them professional blacks and their job is to remind everybody about how black they are Right, that's their job and they're professional Jews and professional professional Women victims. I mean, it's big money. So I think the initial impulse is commercial but Abusing victimhood for commercial purposes is narcissistic behavior. That's the thing it starts with money But the pursuit of money at any cost to your values to your upbringing to Social ethics, I mean if you are ruthless In your pursuit of money Then you are a narcissist and this is the point. It's not that Listen, it's not that I've been a victim. Okay, so I'm a victim. I go out to the world I describe my victimhood and I make a few bucks. That's okay But then but then if I make an industry out of it and I begin to protect my turf And I begin to compete with others and I begin to bed mouth others I mean, that's an entirely different ballgame That's narcissism And that's something called not there's something called situational narcissism Huh, I want to hear a decision. Situational narcissism is a concept that was developed in Harvard They discovered a pretty interesting fact the belief until that time was that narcissism is an early childhood phenomenon In other words, you're abused as a child And you react by developing narcissism And then they found out in a series of studies That people who became famous became celebrities Concurrently developed pathological narcissism late in life So this was late onset narcissism It's narcissism that you develop as an adult And it was the first time that such a thing was documented. They studied rock stars Rock stars food, um NFL NBA Etc. Etc. And they discovered that among these people by the way, many of them blacks like from nba and so on So they discovered among these people There was a they scored very high on the narcissistic personality inventory And mmpi two these are two tests. They scored very high on the narcissistic part And so it meant that technically there were narcissists, but they were not narcissists before Before they were totally healthy So the narcissism is clearly associated with their newfound status as celebrities That's a proposal question regarding that woman. She may have been Motivated by noble noble um intentions But once she has found herself The life of the party so to speak once she is once she has discovered the limelight She might well have developed situational narcissism Late onset narcissism adult narcissism it happens a lot to politicians to rock stars to football stars, etc and um And then when once you discover narcissism I remember beginning of our conversation when we were both much younger when I said that narcissism is a drug addiction That's right. So once you discover narcissism, there's no going back It's intoxicating The grandiosity the the, you know, the flattery that it's Absolutely, you want more and you want more and then of course the threshold goes up. It's not enough what used to be enough Six months ago is not enough anymore And you escalate your behavior. You radicalize your behavior. You provoke artificial conflicts. You create all kinds of spectacles the drama queen The drama queen exactly there was a guy called His name was guidebo guidebo. He was a french Marxist philosopher And he coined the term the society of the spectacle He said that we have been transformed from a society of substance To a society that puts emphasis on spectacle and image And he said that that this means that people will in order to attract attention and so on They will continue to generate spectacles. They will become one man theater troops And exactly drama queens So it induces drama and and you see for example in washington politics I mean, it's much more dramatic than let's say what 50 years ago. You mentioned eisenhower I mean Compare politics in washington in the swamp During eisenhower's time and compare politics today the posing in front of the cameras The the crucial meeting of democrats with donald trump donald trump's antiques It's all one big spectacle The number of laws number of acts passed by congress only five years ago Was ten times The number of acts passed this year Ten times Means congress is much more preoccupied with grandstanding and political theater In spectacle then with passing bloody acts, which is the main function of congress. That's right So we are in a society of spectacle And everyone is a is a an actor on stage to quote a much bigger figure than me Shakespeare That's right All right, so you you did you did a by the way before I go any further ladies and gentlemen You're listening to our city and radio the live stream show This is an exclusive interview with yours truly in my very special guest world renowned expert on malignant narcissism dr. Sam Vaknin and we're having a wide range of discussion on narcissism and what it means for all of us and In the 21st century you're talking about race gender the whole magilla all of it And i'm really glad that he's here and so gracious that he gets spending his time talking with us professor vaknin you um You had a very interesting range of Discussions with mr. Richard granin of the united kingdom I know of him because he participated in an event here in the united states called the 21 convention that's how I knew about And uh, I watched I watched with great interest and very closely your wide-ranging discussions with him I just wanted to get on one aspect of it if I could and that was the the section of the interviews you had with him Where you made the case that the future is female and you had some pointed words among other things with regard to Migtau and the men's rights movement the red pillars and so forth. So I just wanted to kind of go into that with you For for the benefit of my argument or my audience rather could you just briefly lay out your argument about the future being female And then we'll go into that and go further into that Humanity went through two phases two big phases either two and he's entering the third That's not my invention. That is alvin toflas so The first phase was hunter gather hunter hunting gathering. It was an environment where women At the very least contributed equally to nutrition and controlled all the other functions of life So men were hunting and they came back once every two once in a blue moon actually with an antelope or a deer or whatever and the the bulk of nutrition was actually Obtained via gathering and gathering was controlled fully by women and children Women also raised the children and and guarded the community when men were away hunting It stands to reason. Although we have no documented proof, of course it stands to reason That women were pretty dominant in that phase Because nine out of ten functions were carried out by women Men came back they had to eat first and they had to eat more than women Simply because of their energy requirements. It didn't reflect any social it reflected the need to maintain the machine so and then About 10,000 years ago 10 to 5,000 depending on the on the part of the world There was the agricultural revolution And at the beginning there were no tractors and combines and steam diesel You know, there was there was only the human muscle To pull the plow To plant crops and to harvest and reap them. You needed to be muscular. You needed to be strong Nature has it that Men because of hormonal. I'm a medical doctor. So I know why but generally speaking because of hormonal hormones mainly Men have more muscle mass than women And so it gave them A competitive edge an advantage In the age of agriculture and later in the age of industry, which is nothing but an extension of agriculture The first industries were agriculture based and They processed agricultural inputs and to this very day very big part of industry is based on agriculture in effect So one could say that this is one revolution the agricultural industrial revolution during this period muscle Was an advantage and men had muscle period So they became dominant and then they became even more dominant and then they became utterly dominant And women became property And this lasted until more or less The crimian war which is the 1860s What happened in the 1860s were two developments one a gradual transition from industry to services and information process processing and wars In which millions of men had to participate as opposed to previous wars were only thousands of men were participating So mass wars or what we call total wars total war total war is a new invention So when men went to war Whole generations went to war for example in world war two About 80 percent of the generations the of four generations were extinguished exterminated in the world So what happened was women Had to fulfill male roles simply because there were no men As I said in previous wars a representative sample of men Was sent to fight each other the bulk of male population remained behind But in total wars the entire male population is fighting And so there are no men And so women have to work in factories and they have to pave roads And they have to do everything that men usually used to do And so women penetrated classic male Enclaves classic male vocations and professions and classic male fortresses if you wish Women began to replace men or uh seriously And when men men returned from the wars They did not succeed to dislodge women and to regain their previous advantage Because women discovered the secrets that men have guarded for centuries. They don't need men They can do everything very well by themselves Because modern machinery machinery replaces muscles very efficiently As the emphasis continued to shift after the second world war to information processing and services As machinery replaced muscles via automation and so on women became Equipotent with equal power to men and then the surpassed men Today majority of college and university graduates The world over with a few exceptions are women not men In many countries including the united states Women outweigh men in their educational attainment In many professions the majority of practitioners are women and that includes today The judicial professions medicine art and so on so Women are taking over and they are taking over for two major reasons As we said Muscles are dispensable And more than dispensable. They're not needed. They are absolutely actually in many respects muscles become a disadvantage And but the most more important reason the skills that provide you with an advantage In a networked world a world of networks non hierarchical world The women have these advantages and men do not Women network much more Women are much more social Women are much more empathic Women are much less competitive. So the work in teams much better Etc etc etc etc women are much better suited to the modern world than men Indeed In some countries one third of primary breadwinners are already women I said two things With I mean The muscles issue The networking issue and the new skills that are required where women are much better suited But there was actually a third thing Uh, and this is something that no one has noticed as far as I know I couldn't find a reference to it in any literature that I've ever seen Even in mixtail and red pillars. I mean no one mentions it for some bizarre reason Um divorce divorce Divorce has been the biggest transfer of economic resources By far in human history the When oil went up from six dollars To a hundred and forty dollars hundred and forty eight Which is quite a rise you would agree Hundreds of billions of dollars were transferred from oil consumers to oil producers The entire transfer of wealth between all consumers and oil producers is less than nine months Nine months of transfer of wealth in a typical year between men and women from men to women And how is this done? divorce When women divorce on average They get half the common community property Plus alimony plus child support What is this if not a transfer of wealth? From men to women If you take into account That 53 percent of all marriages and in divorce You can calculate the incredible breathtaking Transfer of money property wealth resources real estate from men to women This has been going on for well over 50 years By my estimate according to my calculations Men have transferred a total of six trillion dollars to women Now you tell me that's worldwide No, no, no United States Oh, so you're saying Six trillion in what the last half a century in the United States alone only in the United States If you take into account if you take into account the United States is about a quarter of global GDP That's right Well, you could safely assume that about 20 trillion to 25 trillion dollars change hands between men and women Now you tell me the following if you were to tomorrow to win the lottery And You were to get six trillion dollars. Would you be a powerful? Would you be powerful? Would you be a powerful man? Oh, yeah, but that would lead me to my next point If if if what if your calculations are correct? I have no reason to doubt it So if your if your calculations are correct and answer me this doc, where did all the money go? What do you mean? women well women Women got education with this money And took over men by a wide margin by doing Women entered the professions And took over professions by a wide margin in many professions And in the most well-paying profession All right, so how do you explain in black america? Because again black women make a lot of hay out of the idea that they They're more educated than black men make more than black men all this etc etc All right, so how do they explain? That black the the rank and file black woman as an average network for five dollars And carries the most school debt of anybody in the country as a matter of fact, uh, this past mid-term election season A black woman named stacey abrams was running for the governor of atlanta And she had over a quarter of a million dollars in debt I know how do you explain that? black women and black men and the black community in general are the exception What i'm saying Indeed applies mostly to white people Okay, and to Begins to apply more and more to hispanics The blacks the blacks are outside the mainstream in many many respects and we can discuss why i mean i'll be delighted but They are not a good example should we say they're not a representative sample But it's a fact It's a fact that blacks are not the majority of the population in the united states Oh, no doubt no doubt about that and that at least i think i'm underestimating Massively but at least six trillion at least change hands Yeah Listen, but even if you take it to account the racial piece that we set aside black american We should just focus on you know whites need the hispanics outleads the jews out We just focus on gentile white folks in america, okay How do you if these these women are getting all this money and in matter of fact You even use the term annuity with your interview with granite You said in the economic world when one party gives a payment Over time to another party. They call it an annuity True, so a dividend is an annuity. Yeah, true, right? So if white women Are receiving this massive wealth transfer from their husbands and so forth in the form of an annuity What time like is caused vagina money the payment of use of a past vagina. That's that's what you're paying for Okay, so that's true My question becomes what are they doing with all the money? You say what they went to school? They got educated. Well, how do you explain this the school debt bubble in the united states? Well, and and and and that and the majority of that debt is being carried to forget black women That we're taking them out of the equation the majority of the debt burden is being carried by white women That the average age Of the woman's marcher We talked about the women's march earlier the average age because I looked it up on survey monkey The average age of the woman's marcher is 49 years old white College educated we know that women consume more in terms of health care spending and all the rest of it And these women's marchers were marching because they wanted to retain obama care. They wanted Planned parenthood in other words They want me the blue-collar black man skilled tradesmen with no debt to pay for them the fucking suck I'm just going to go ahead and say it They want me to pay for them the fucking suck and have all these sexual adventures with these knuckleheads And they want me to pay for it with my taxes If if if what you're saying is true doctor, then how do you explain all this other phenomenon? I'm talking about white people now white women pretty easily actually, but we have to enter economics So that but I will I will give you the the crux The gist of it First of all, I did not talk about transfer of money cash. I talk about transfer of wealth 6 trillion in terms of wealth the vast majority vast majority of the savings of americans are in real estate All right, especially residential property and especially first homes so There has been a massive transfer of real estate more technically speaking Okay, and our real estate Is not easily monetized especially after 2008. In other words, you cannot convert it easily to money So a lot of this money is in brick and mortar That's the first thing the second thing The united states is among the few countries in the world Where wages for the middle class have actually declined in real terms over the last 20 years Okay, so this transfer of wealth Has been actually diminishing it's been diminishing because Wages have stagnated in the united states Middle class compensation has been stagnated the middle class is decimated completely There are more poor people and the rich became a hell of a lot richer So there is this problem and the second and the third reason that you don't that you seem to you seem to observe a Contradiction there isn't contradiction the facts of facts But the third reason is that women tend have different priorities To men Okay, we discovered in studies and I just made a video about it on my youtube channel We discovered in studies that women Dedicate a huge percentage of their resources and make purchasing decisions Geared towards the welfare of their children Okay So the money is there It's just allocated not on consumption and not on definitely not on ostentatious Or conspicuous consumption, but it's allocated Is invested in the future of the children So when we say women the transfer of wealth has been to women and children if you wish And I have no problem with any of that. That's fine. That's fine And the allocation between women and children is such That the bulk of the transferred wealth Is actually invested in the children's future well-being medical care, etc. That's why we don't see it but The fact is That six, I mean men have been impoverished by six billion And women have been enriched by six billion a trillion. All right, but how do you explain these women's marchers? All of this stuff about I know you're a scientist I know you worked in the economic world at a high level and all that So what i'm about to say is veering on the populace with political But i'm just going to go ahead and say it anyway because I want to get you a reaction My position is this In black america, but we can apply this to whites as well. My position is this Washington I have to pay For a woman who said black white otherwise who's been who's been banging the drum for decades now My body my choice you as a man have no say Over what I choose to do with my body in other words you have no say over who I choose to fuck and suck That's fine. I'm good with that. So why do I have to pay for it? If it's your body and your choice madam, you pay for it not me And that's what they're marching for with this woman's marching and all the rest of it They want increased government spending which means the taxpayer me to pay for their health care for their For their abortions and all the rest of it. Why can't they pay for it? Especially if they get in all these wealth transfers or asset transfers etc. So for that's the disconnect to me First of all the facts are that men are becoming poorer much faster than women That is why about one third of all primary breadwinners in the united states are now women 10 times 10 times higher than 20 years ago Okay That is happening because women are becoming richer faster than men or if you want men are becoming poorer faster than women But how do we explain the women's marchers and then and then wanting increased spending on obama care? Average age is 49 white college educated. How do we explain that? Well, why not? If you can obtain if you can obtain rent this is this behavior is called rent There was a Nobel prize winning economist Herbert Simon and Herbert Simon says said As long as there is the opportunity or prospect Of obtaining unilateral transfers Not against economic performance or work People will invest resources in obtaining it and this is called rent behavior. So they are rent seekers It's totally normal behavior. Wouldn't you march if you thought that you can end up with another $10,000 a year? Of course you would march So that's Boy, that's just a straight green That doesn't surprise me. But the thing is this the feminism has been Um, and again, I I think you may have noticed throughout a conversation That i'm doing my best not to be biased in the sense that i'm I mean equal equal opportunity critic Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean you you've made it clear that you are scientists you deal with the facts I mean, I don't care. I don't I you know, I don't care wins and who loses. That's their problem. I'm I'm I'm an observer so What has happened is We have modified the economic Sphere the the the business sphere the the workplace space Yeah, but we have not modified Social institutions and attended laws equally Our laws and our social institutions Still hark back to the agricultural industrial period. I agree. I agree. We haven't changed them yet Well, well, but but that's mainly because women don't want it to change doctor Your your critique of the mig towels and and red pillars and so so forth notwithstanding I'm not saying that they are above reproach or they or they or I'm not I'm not criticizing them at all Like you're saying they're pathetic Right. Yeah, your your your your observations are noted Fair enough But I argue that theirs are there there and we can start just with this mating piece A lot of women even though and I know you know the literature on this a lot of women even though they're high earning They're able to support themselves They don't want to date those guys that you mentioned have experienced a decline in wages They still expect to make with a man That makes more than they do And they don't want to change the dating norms. They want to keep the dating norms Osified in the amber of the 19th or the mid 20th century But they still want to live a 21st century lifestyle as a liberated woman. That's bullshit Excuse my expression. That's just no other way of saying it. That's crap First of all, I I never criticized anyone for in the sense that I disagree with values. I'm just saying Red Pillars and so on are fighting a rearguard losing action losing the war is lost So they are pathetic in the sense that they are trying to reverse social trends and economic trends way way too late The place and the time For this kind of movements was the 1950s and 60s The war is lost completely because technology and Other developments have rendered the workplace and have rendered the the economy such That women's skills talents trades qualities and inherent in built hardware and software Are now much better suited For the future than men There's nothing we can do about it. It's like women would have organized a red pillar red pill Movement at the beginning of a cultural revolution There's nothing to do when the agricultural revolution started muscles rained period. There's nothing you could do about it No, no amount of feminism at the beginning of agricultural revolution Could have reversed the trend of male dominance No amount of red peeling and migthouse and other what else Can reverse the coming female dominance The world has changed Women are not fair Women are taking advantage of this exactly as men did at the beginning of the agricultural revolution And why not why wouldn't they do that? I mean, this is life. It's survival of the fittest. It's the women If they can get money from the government via rent seeking and money from you via divorce And on top of it obtain social and other benefits and on top of it fuck around And get paid alimony and on top of it travel to Greece and again fuck around and get alimony and and child support And I don't know what else they can get All the power to them I mean, sure that's how society operates interest groups clash And may the strongest and the fittest win Not the best the strongest and the fittest All right, since you talked about the strongest and the fittest, let me push back to you on this I'm a skilled tradesman. That was my my my life for Most of my adult working life 22 years on a job No woman worked on my job and when we tried we my job bent over backwards to try to bring women in it was a colossal failure Okay, women didn't want to do skilled trade blue collar union man They don't want to do it. So if the future belongs to women my question to you is simply this doctor Who who's going to make the do-do go down the toilet women? men men are going to be the low level low skilled uneducated um muscle power where it's still needed Increasingly, it will not be needed 50 according to mckinsey 53 percent of all blue collar jobs Will be replaced by automation um by 2020 by 2030 i'm sorry So gradually men will not be needed even in in muscle bound activities So men are being pushed into niches And the niche is becoming smaller and smaller and smaller reminds me of the 19th century joke. How do you capture an elephant? You divide africa and two and then you divide it in four and then you divide in 16 And then you divide it in 1960 and finally the elephant has so little space That it has to stand on one leg and then you capture the elephant So This is what's happening to men. They are being pushed to smaller and smaller smaller plots and patches of i mean The territory is becoming smaller and smaller more and more claustrophobic men are going to enter the claustrophobic age Where there are no jobs And the few jobs they are suck And they are mech jobs, you know Temporary jobs and stuff like that And women are going to take over the high paying jobs the white color jobs the and they already are in some professions over overwhelmingly medicine law And that's it and that's reality because the world is about networking about teamwork about empathy about collaboration And women are far better at this than men and the world is about education And the shocking thing is that women are far better at this than men Women are far better students than men far They don't have to believe me go online check the date. No, no, I mean, I mean there's been lots been written about it I'm not going to argue you or you about that too much too much evidence to the contrary. So yeah Nothing to do about it. You know this life agricultural industrial period of paradise heaven is finished Now all right, so let me ask you this doctor Now we are redone. All right. Well, let me ask you this doctor. All right fair enough So how do you explain? Numerous university studies right here in my hometown of philly University of pennsylvania has done this and others around the world not just Female unhappiness in the united states but worldwide more women are recording being unhappier than ever While men's happiness has gone up. How do you explain that? Well, I don't know It's strange because it's strange because most men report Mark declining happiness and happiness after divorce Men want to remain married women initiate divorce 73. That's true. That's true. 73% of all divorces are initiated by women So I don't know why women would be I think women should be a hell of a lot happier after they get rid of these redundant appendages known as men and And men should be Unhappy because they have lost the service providers known as women I'll I tell you I'm a comfort. I'm a confirmed bachelor. I never married by choice I had I had opportunities to marry. I turned it down because the women weren't hot enough So I said hell with it. I'm not going to get married to a plain Jane with a heart of gold And be Changed at the hip to somebody that does nothing for my dick. So I just chose to just go without it So now I've had girlfriends and stuff since but my point is In black america and I know that what I'm about to say may be the exception to the rule But I'm gonna say it anyway in black america the divorce rate for first marriages is 74% versus 47% For white america in black america three out of every four black women never marrying their lifetime The numbers are similar for black men 40 of the the largest cohort of confirmed bachelors in the united states today Over the age of 40 and that would be me are are black black men And that 40% of black over four like 45% of black men today are single and childless Let me tell you something doc and I speak only for myself I'm happy as a clam. I have no problems. I'm happy Uh, I the guys that I knew Then you were right the god the black men i'm talking about that were married and got divorced. They're miserable No doubt about it to a man. They're miserable, but but the brothers like me that are confirmed bachelors like me Oh, man, we're living the life of rally Yeah, and I don't I think I want to be Or clean for me or or be my mommy or anything like that if she's here It's because I enjoy her feminine and sexual companionship and we enjoy our company. That's it I think this is going to be the model of the future where essentially singles will team up or hook up if you wish Um, provide each other with the services like sex and and so on and then unhook And move on. I think I think that's going to be the model of the future. I think marriage is dead And marriage is dead essentially because it's not needed anymore. It's a very archaic and dysfunctional and inefficient mode Of organizing production child rearing and distribution of wealth across generations and in the in intra generation So marriage used to be a great great way of distributing wealth across generations Which was it's main which was its main kind of role? I mean marriage is not about love not about anything was about Producing children and passing on the cumulative wealth and property to them. That's what that was marriage was about But today there's no need for that There are so many alternatives to producing children and so many alternatives to distributing or redistributing wealth across generations that you know This union is Past X parodate. So I think marriage is dying and indeed it's dying. I mean look at the marriage rates in the United States It's dying So and it's it'll be replaced by ad hoc arrangements now No one can predict. I mean there's polyamory. There's swinging lifestyle. There's I mean there are million open marriages Open relationships not open. Yes open everything I mean men and women men and women will negotiate ad hoc short term liaisons hookups And the deep the the terms and conditions will be defined very clearly And also it will be clear that and I proposed a few a few years ago 20 years ago almost I proposed the only way to revitalize marriage Is to sign time limited marriage contracts Negotiate that's an interesting concept. I want to hear about this one time limited contracts But you get married you get married for two years and you renegotiate the contract every two years And I see and if if you don't reach an understanding on agreement the marriage expires automatically No need to divorce That's it. No need to divorce like you sign a two-year contract or five-year contract if you want to have children Let's say so minimum five-year contract if you want to have children And then the end of the five years you don't need to go to court divorce divorce attorneys and fucking mess, you know You don't need any of this the marriage expires on itself. That's it And then if you if you do love your partner like your partner, whatever for whatever reason Or I don't know what you want to maintain the family you need for the child Whatever the reason may be you renew the contract for another two years Right, so it's time limited marriages and the only way in my view to revitalize marriage And you know, I actually like that idea because as a union man former union man I know all about contracts and labor disputes and things of that nature. So that that's appealing to me. The problem is Uh, uh, well, there's two problems. Uh, dr. Backman the first problem Is the divorce industry here in the united states a big money in divorce courts and lawyers and all the rest of it And that's one but the other one And again my my I may be the exception to the rule in terms of me being black and american whatnot But a lot of black women don't want to negotiate They want black men to do what they tell them No questions asked and uh, my position is you got to come to the table and negotiate black women don't want to As a matter of fact, I even have a term for them, uh, dr. Backman I refer to a lot of black women as sexual marketplace socialists Well, um, first of all the divorce industry is founded on the falsehoods of marriage For example marriage is presumed to be eternal because originally The marriage marriage format we are using today Was created by the catholic church where divorce is forbidden and the belief the belief was in both the catholic church and the orthodox church It's all a religious concept That marriage was pre ordained by by heaven and that your partner Is your divinely divinely chosen? You know intimate So marriage was founded and is still founded on a series of misconceptions lies disinformation and and so on And so to untangle it you need the divorce industry But if marriage were to be negotiated honestly openly as a as you say a labor contract As a time expired agreement on a long commercial basis and so on and so forth I think divorce industry will simply vanish if there's no need for divorce. There will be no divorce industry Women of course It's natural. I don't know why men are so angry It's natural for women It's natural for women to blackmail To threaten to withhold To extort. I mean, wouldn't you do the same and what's wrong with it? That's what every party does In every type of negotiation geopolitical political commercial and emotional I mean, it's totally normal for them to do that the honest honest is on you Not to allow them to do that But why the emotions why get angry at them? I wouldn't I mean totally rational behavior Grab as much as you can In in a in a I mean the art of the deal Trump right the trump. Yeah, right So, all right. Well, let me ask you this because we're coming down to the window because you've been more than gracious I really appreciate it. Let me ask you this. Uh, why do you think black Americans are so resistant To discussions on psych psychology and things of that nature. Why do you think that is? I think it's part of a larger disruption um in Black patterns of existence First of all, I don't know if you've been to Africa. I lived four years in Africa. No, I haven't Yeah, I I've lived four years in Africa But what country? I've lived in Nigeria and Sierra Leone and so so I visited many I visited Egypt, Morocco But this is north Africa. That's more Arab, but I've been to I've been to the so-called black art of Africa And I've worked in Sierra Leone in Nigeria, which are western Africa, right? So um And where most black Americans Are emanate from that that area of Africa Not far from the homey and this you know the ports the slave ports and and so yeah, and of course the The version of slavery that is taught in the United States is heavily tainted in my view at least by the fact that Precious few scholars and so on bothered to actually visit the places and talk to the people and so I spent four years there slavery was one of my main Points of fascination and I inquired with people. There's still memories there still Memory passed on from generation to generation. It's the usual memory. Um, the story. Yeah So I got I had to bring you back for another interview just to deal with that because that's a fascinating piece Yeah, I spoke to hundreds of people there. I interviewed effectively hundreds of people and so on. I mean it was amazing four years anyhow Marriage patterns communal patterns organizational social units In Africa today and in the United States our western white imports Which were imposed on blacks Both in the mother continent And when they were transported These are not indigenous natural outgrowths of self-organizing collectives They were utterly imported and imposed mainly at the beginning by missionaries, but later on by slave owners plantation owners. I mean so all these Social units like family community. I don't know what state. I mean all these things are alien alien to blacks It's it doesn't make them inferior or superior. They're simply organize themselves differently The organizational unit in in the overwhelming majority of Africa was the extended extended family And the extended family itself was clannish and was part of a tribe Okay, and children for example were raised collectively and And monogamy was perceived as strange in many of these societies and yeah, I mean Africa today remains the most polygamous place on planet earth yeah, I mean And when you see that people live in monogamy because it's been outlawed by the colonial powers Could go to jim if you if you were a traditionalist, you know And people for example the concept of court of law Totally alien to Africa. I mean all legal proceedings took place within the tribe in a council of elders And reconciliation. I mean stunning but in my view the legal system The indigenous legal system in Africa is far superior to anything the west came up with, you know And yet they had to give it up they had to give it up because the colonial powers instituted You know tribunals and so on and you had to go there if you wanted to obtain justice if you wanted White man had a gun so Yeah, I mean it's not only question of gun But like if you got if you got a verdict to enforce it you needed to go through white channels, right white colonial channels and Same in in the plantations and you know if you Because they have been rare cases were actually slaves through their masters and I mean it's pretty amazing But and so if you wanted to obtain just justice in any way shape or form formal or informal You had to appeal to the white. I mean the white was the the ultimate instance and authority And so a lot was imposed on on black On blacks both in in africa itself and and when they were transported to the caribbean and to To the united states to to england by the way. It was a massive trade slave trade to england. Yeah, it was outlawed in the middle of the 19th century right well before big big war now Yeah, so um And you discover I discovered to my amazement and of course it's today's documented in text and books and so I discovered that Blacks Doc, are you there? Dr. Vaknin, are you there? I see you still up on the screen, but uh I don't know what happened ladies and gentlemen. We got got some uh sound difficulty here with our special guest uh Dr. Sam Vaknin. I want to see if I can get him back on the line. Uh, Dr. Vaknin, are you there? Hello And oh, there is Yeah, yeah, you dropped out for some reason uh, dr. Vaknin for about three or four minutes Could you start over and pick up where you left off? I'm not sure where I where I left off, but I'm saying that I'm saying that um These institutions for example the nuclear family were imposed on on blacks from the outside And I think to this very day they have a conflicted relationship With these institutions. They are not Uh, they are not an integral part Of either the psychology or the sociology of of blacks and they are not fully internalized as we call it in psychology They are not interjected. They are not an automatic knee jerk response To the exigencies of life and society in reality, but they are like white men's reflexes implanted in black minds and some Slavery the period of slavery exacerbated this Dual dual relationship with for example the the nuclear family Yes, but as a matter of fact the famous scholar w e b the boys famously talked about this and it's a mortal work The souls of black folk the idea of a white self and a black self, you know, the dual consciousness kind of fighting in the same body That's what I think right in 1943, right? so the slavery during slavery, I don't need to tell you families were separated Men were sold separately women were sold separately and children very often were sold separately right, so Even if black had blacks decided to adopt the white men's way of organizing reality and society They were not allowed to They were not allowed to learn to read and write They were not allowed to have nuclear functioning families because they were constantly separated sold resold re-bought. I mean They were not allowed to develop their own effective communities. They were I mean There was constant interruption constant intervention constant malicious sometimes manipulation and so Not only did the blacks come from a background in Africa, which was antithetical which was opposed to white values white organizations and white social units But they were not allowed to internalize and assimilate white values white organization principles and white social units in their destination countries When they try to have a family the family was torn apart when they try to organize as communities They were they were executed when or or flogged When they try to learn to read and write they were executed. So they were not given the chance to organically Kind of assimilating their environment And we see these conflicts to this very day They can't assimilate the Jews have assimilated the Jews came to the United States they were They were an outlier minority They were decried. They were derided. They were hated antisemitism this that but listen a generation later two generations later The Jews assimilated They became Members of the elite they became, you know, they they moved on They simply moved on which is the reason by the way for the hatred between blacks and and Jews Blacks and Jews started from exactly the same point hated minor hated minorities Jews made But it was a famous or infamous case here in the United States and I want to I want to say 30s or 40s Leo the lynching was Yeah, yeah, the lynching of your friend. Of course. Yes, and it was a Jew. Yeah, so They started from the same point, but the Jews made it and the blacks failed And of course the blacks resented they resented. I mean like you were you were like me. What are you now? Are you now going to help me like in the civil rights movement? Are you now going to help me? I mean, you were you were like me. We came from the same, you know So the Jews started exactly like the the blacks but with a generation or two They were way gone and they became the landlords. They became the landlords of the black They owned the grocery stores them and they they became the blacks became A minority among the Jews it it was inconceivable. It was it created a lot of hatred and a lot of resentment Well, I mean, that's what the whole thing with the women's march Tameka Mallory is the black woman founder of the women's march. She attended A a event by national Islam leader minister Lewis Farrakhan the name of the events called savior's day She was there. He called her out by name singled her out by name and went into his I would rightly call it anti-Semitic diatribe against Jewish folk and that was the basis For calling the women's march anti-Semitic and then you know the rest of the story from there So there's this relationship Between black folks and jews that you just mentioned Where there's a lot of enmity and to be brulee frank doctor back and you hit the nail on the head I've long suspected that the real court the real kernel or the real source Of the butthurt on the part of a lot of blacks Is that jews succeeded and blacks? They succeeded in blacks Envy Envy is another diagnostic criteria of narcissism Pathological envy is the ninth diagnostic criteria of narcissistic narcissistic personality disorder if you go to diagnostic and statistical manual Right. What one of the diagnostic criteria of narcissistic personality disorder is Pathologically envious of other people because of their accomplishment And perceives these accomplishments as unjust It's exactly the blacks the black men's the black the blacks attitude to the jew How come he made it and I didn't make it there's something wrong here some conspiracy There's some maybe the jew is colluding with otherwise against me Oh, yeah, I just got finished doing an interview last night dr. Vaknin with a black woman a good-looking attractive Married upper middle class black woman living in in in san francisco And she was talking about the jewish conspiracy to control the media and all is you know They're trying to break up the black family and I asked us. Okay. Where did you get all this information from? She couldn't give me a source But she believed to the depths of her soul That the jews were out to do black folk in and i'm like wait a minute, but you're you're doing well You're successful. What jew is holding you down She couldn't answer me after nonsense. I mean If anything the jews were very helpful, especially during the civil rights movement, I mean, that's right Not all the right not all the jews southern jews were not but northern jews were so But it's it again if you use narcissism you suddenly understand everything because narcissists react with pathological envy When they start with the same position at the same position as someone and that that someone takes off and they remain stuck That's that's classic narcissistic reaction classic and it's all about envy. It's all about envy. I mean Um, I've read all the texts. I read Baldwin and de boire. I mean I read it. I mean it's envy simply envy And um, there's a lot of bad blood because of this because of this envy one But why hate all the jews for doing for being successful when blacks could just do the same thing Education I mean it's called secret to the jew's success Edge a strong emphasis on education strong emphasis on marriage Strong emphasis on the family. You just do those three things in american society. You will succeed Strong emphasis on savings through gallery savings is another one. Yes. That's right. That's right frugality saving Yes, these values are also common to agents And agents are moving up the level Upwardly mobile and blacks hate jews about the asians too. There's a real famous rap song There's a famous rap song by ice cube called black korea Where he talks about this And so so so what's the excuse there? So so I guess in another 10 years. It'll be an asian conspiracy Uh to control the media and hold black people down and all is nonsense Well, you saw you saw spikely movies. I mean, yeah, it's it's out there and I fully believe that as as other minorities move up the social ladder The the blacks I mean blacks have two choices they can say listen some somebody's fucked up with us with us The the problem is with us. Let's Let's introspect. Let's look at ourselves. Let's become self aware. Let's see what we can fix. Let's that's one thing one way And the other way is saying is saying listen, nothing's wrong with us. It's just a conspiracy against us by Varying minorities and especially if they are white tinted And that's a narcissistic reaction This paranoia and this this is a narcissistic reaction. No one is saying at least of all me That blacks are not discriminated against including institutionally that they are not horribly mistreated And have been even more horribly mistreated And that there's a legacy of of suppression ruination disruption and imposition of of Social values and other values which are alien to to the blacks. I mean, no one is saying any of this, of course blacks have been, you know Horrible what happened to them. It's genocide blacks have been subjected to a slow motion genocide And no one is saying no But look the jews were subjected to fast move fast forward. Of course, of course, it's documented Well documented and they have established the state of israel, which is one of the richest in the world. I mean, that's right That's right. There's there's a limit the limit to victimhood and the blacks discovered That victimhood is a profitable industry And that's the thing they got addicted to victimhood They are I mean, there are many drug addicts, but I think the number of victimhood addicts far outweighs the number of drug addicts Because victimhood pays Simply pays whether you are drug addicts don't you don't get paid to be a drug addict. Yeah, right So whether you're a black professor at the university victimhood pays Whether you are an activist in the women's march victimhood pays Whether you're a louis farrakhan with the nation of islam victimhood pays and a victimhood pays it works It's a working adaptation. Why give it up? And I got to tell you uh, uh professor now Like I said, I'm black. I can parents, you know, solid working middle class What went to work right out of high school work for 22 years I The reason why I got into this line of work is because my job came to an end due to a work injury So I reinvented myself into a podcaster and talk show host been very successful at it I'm living proof that if you you know, it may sound corny, but it's true I'm living proof that if you work hard you have a plan you work hard You stick to the plan you persevere through the rough patches. You will make it You know when I get called by other black people, dr. Wagner, you know what I get called uncle tom coon Sell out you you lick the white man's ass crack clean all this other nine you're agent all this stuff It's ridiculous It is an isparanoid technically clinically speaking isparanoid. It's a great pity that Blacks did not use victimhood as a launching pad as the jews did the jews also embrace their victimhood but as a launching pad The the blacks embrace their victimhood as the ultimate solution for all existential problems So why go further? It works. It's okay. It's the path of least resistance And that's it And that's where they're stuck In the loop Again, no one is denying least of all me That blacks have been and are being victimized I'm not denying this. I think what police departments around the country are doing is murder But I gotta tell you but I have to say with all due respect dr. Wagner And I know that you're not an american citizen and you haven't lived here as long as I have But with all due respect, I have to say as a black man Who's lived in in inner city black america for most of my adult life? I gotta tell you Or in my coming up years, too I gotta tell you if you Are a black man and you have trouble with the police today I'm not talking about back in the 60s and in the turn of the century I'm talking about today if you have run-ins with the cops. It's almost always because you did something you weren't supposed to be doing That's almost always the case and we are not talking about the fact of the police reacts We're talking about the proportion proportionality of the reaction. So There's more black men that are acting acting and cutting up and not acting a fool What's the cops supposed to do? Turn a blind out of that so these people can predate on other black people Is that what we're supposed to do turn a blind eye to it? Not you not you. I'm talking about my fellow black americas. Because this is what they'll say This is what they'll say. They'll say you're supposed to uh, uh, hold the police and the power structure accountable And not hold these knuckleheads who are predating on other black people accountable We're supposed to turn a blind eye to their crap in the name of racism in all of us It's utter ridiculous And that's why I wanted to have your conversation with you because I had to find out what's the psychology behind that Yeah, I was not saying this because obviously the greatest victims of blacks are blacks That's right. So that's all I'm saying. What I'm saying is that police could have been taught Proportional de-escalation methods and so on and they haven't been because it's not a priority because Black lives don't matter so much. That's that's the fact. I mean there's prejudice bias racism The black victims lives don't matter. That's that's the problem the black victims who get as well. Yes But these people they don't matter blacks don't respect themselves Whatever whatever I've been saying throughout this interview black adopted blacks adopted victimhood as the ultimate solution Existential solution. So of course when you're victim, you can't respect yourself and there is no self-respect No self-respect of men no self-respect as men no self-respect as blacks And of course no one respects someone who doesn't respect himself It starts from the blacks, of course. It's something the whites learn from the blacks if they don't respect themselves. Why respect them? but what I'm trying to say is that Blacks have been victimized and I think they are still being victimized. That's not the issue at all So do so do women women are still being victimized in big parts of the world Jews are being victimized including in your own city. I mean in pithmark But yeah, everyone is everyone is victimized some time or another I mean, do you know any group on in the universe who is not victimized at one time or another? right, but You should never get stuck on your victimhood leverage it and make it a profession a profitable profession because you will end up paying the price You will end up paying the price because victimhood is the mental equivalent of paralysis And you and you will end up stagnating and you will end up, you know festering and you will end up, you know Where the blacks ended up And you know, I'm glad you say that nothing. This is a good end point and we could we have to to be continued But just as an end point last thing I want to ask you I'm glad you mentioned the paralysis piece. I've always marveled How for all the academics that blacks have today We have a lot of black academics and all the rest of it in public in pundits and so forth We never have black evolutionary psychologists psychologists such as yourself a varying stripe And thinkers like a dr. Jordan Peterson We never had people like that All of the brain power is devoted to racism and in more particular Are being victimized by it and that whites are responsible for it and that every problem that we have Is reducible to that. So we never have discussions about malignant narcissism We never have discussions about what dr. Jordan Peterson is talking about. We don't have a dr. Jordan Peterson And I think that's appalling in the 21st century. It's appalling but utterly predictable. This is called confirmation bias When you benefit from some position ideology idea belief or value You tend to filter out information That countervails or contradicts it because you benefit and you want to continue to benefit So you don't want to be contradicted or doubt And so you filter out and you on the contrary filter in you accept you adopt your Information that supports your preconceived notions and biases and prejudices and so on now The main industry of the black community is victimhood The main industry in a variety of ways crime is a form of victim The victims of crime victims of crime are of course victims I mean everything is about victimhood and so Let me just jump in here real quick. Uh, dr. Vattem because i'm gonna tell you something in my uh position as a talk show host One of the big debates over the past year year and a half in black american circles on youtube and Facebook and whatnot where my show can be heard is the idea between black men and black women That black women scorn The straight-arrow guys like me And in sucking fuck the worst type of guys in black community the gang bangers narrow duels and all the rest of it and the argument goes that We are guys like me are supposed to be the cleanup man For all the fallout between these black women getting with these knuckleheads And we got to go back and clean up the community. We got to go back and uplift the community We got to be mentors to their kids and all this stuff and i started to stir online in the past few years By by declaring that i refuse to be the cleanup man And you should see the sheer reaction i get not just from black women, which will be understandable But a not insignificant number of black men too True True they feel that i have a duty to serve the community, which really means Being a cleanup man after these black women and the worst kind of black men that they want to suck and fuck Yep I think we could call it a day here and Reserve the right to continue this conversation. Hello. Yes. Yes, please. Thank you so much Dr. Wagner all the crap that we had to go through to get this together I'm glad that it finally happened and thank you so much for your time and we definitely to be continued I gotta bring you back. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you and have a nice day You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye Ladies and gentlemen, that was uh, dr. Sam vaknen world expert on malignant narcissism get his book You got to get his book malignant narcissists. Uh, excuse me malignant self love Narcissism Revisited it's in its fifth edition. You can get it on amazon.com. It's like the bible of narcissism You want to understand what narcissism is narcissistic personality to sort of all that stuff You want to understand that how it manifests in its various ways in daily life and beyond You got to get that book I want to thank everybody for taking the time out to listen to this exclusive Interview be prepared for more such exclusive interviews to come in 2019 with that I'm going to say peace. We are gone