 The electoral process in Nigeria is tainted by money politics, says the Civil Society Legislative Advocacy Centre. And more Nigerians leave in fear as kidnapped for ransom worsens. Is there an end inside? Well, this is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anacorn. Money politics has tainted Nigeria's electoral processes. The Civil Society Legislative Advocacy Centre has stated this. Executive Director Sislak Awal Rafasjani said this, stating that if left unchecked, it will jeopardise the democratisation process and in turn prevent electorates from reaping the dividends of democracy. It was stated that this was a problematic situation because the electoral process in itself is often compromised, resulting in elections not being free and fair. He urged Nigerians to put a stop to the ugly practice. Well, joining us to discuss this, to break it down, is Andy Apotivehi. He is a social reformer and Rimon Kanebehi is a legal practitioner and he is a Sustainability Development Advocate. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you for your time. Great. I'm going to start with you, Andy, because you obviously are a change advocate. You are always asking for things to be done differently. Now, without going into the history of money politics, we know that this has been the order of the day for a long time. But the question is, why are we still practicing this in the 21st century when the whole world is ahead of us and asking for accountability? How do you get good governance? We're also asking as a group of people for good governance, let's not forget, October 2020, October 20 of 2020 when Nigerian young people streamed into the streets of the country asking for an end to a rogue police arm also asked for good governance and we all know how that ended. So how do we ask for good governance if we are still engaging in money politics? So Marianne, quickly, let me say this, politics is money and without money you cannot do politics. Politics is money everywhere in the world. In the UK, in America, politics is money. What's different is that these monies that are spent in those other climes are spent in line with the status. They are spent in line with the law. They are not just spent arbitrarily. They are not just collected or given out of context, if you permit my use of the word. But you see, in Nigeria, monies are spent because of the fact. Monies are spent the way they are spent because of the fact that we have weak institutions. For instance, INEC has the responsibility to also police the money trail, police how much is spent on campaigns. INEC has the responsibility to take people to courts that have committed one electoral infraction or the other. INEC election in Nigeria. Do you think that this same INEC will be able to discharge these responsibilities exactly as we want? And don't forget, life is all about actions and consequences. People will do certain things that they know that they would do and they can get away with it. They can get away with blue murder in Nigeria because of the fact that we understand that the institutions are weak and institutions will not be able to check it. So if we come here right now, if we are here discussing money politics in Nigeria, I want to say to you for the first reason that our institutions are weak, we would not be able to attend to them. Secondly, there is poverty that is pervasive all over the land, from the north to the south to the east and the west. Nigerians are poor. They are poor, they are starving and they are hungry. And do not forget that poverty that poverty you're talking about was necessitated by bad governance. And could we have played a role in the poverty that you're referring to that we're going through today? Yes, Maria, you are absolutely correct. So is it also a basis? Should that be an excuse of sorts for vote-buying or money politics and the way the system is? The politicians understand that for them to perpetuate themselves in politics and in governance, they have got to deprive the people of what are supposed to be the bare necessities so that every now and again that they dangle some carols in front of them, the people without thinking and rationalizing would therefore vote them. This is exactly what is happening in the country. This is the narrative that has become indoctrinated in Nigeria. Politicians know that the woman within the village who has been unable to feed his family, if you threw something of say 5000 that they can use to feed their families for the next one month, they would without consideration, without taking the necessities, all of the things that we are supposed to have got as a politician before you ascending to any office, without considering those things because of hunger, they would jump at it and the politicians have weaponized hunger and poverty because they know that if the people are allowed to be quote-unquote emancipated, the people are allowed to enjoy the bare necessities like you see everywhere else in the world that the people will start questioning them, the people will start rationalizing things, the people will start thinking through protocols and processes and saying that we cannot have this man be the next president of this country because of his antecedent. We cannot have this man be the next governor of this state because of his antecedent. Today, as I speak with you, Marianne, we would be deceiving ourselves to think that we can address money politics with the way politicians have weaponized politics, weaponized poverty. Raymond, just to speak up on where he stopped, I'd just like to go back to what Moussara Fajani said. He said throughout the world, democracy is judged as the best form of government, but it is being constantly assaulted in Nigeria due to the phenomenon of money politics and vote buying. He also says that money seems to have taken the center stage in our political process and that of many other countries, including that of Nigeria, to the extent that the word money politics has crept into the country's political vocabulary. We listen to radio stations, we hear analysts like yourself and Andy, waxing lyrical and speaking about these same things and saying if you sell your votes the next four years you're going to be grinding your teeth and we still go ahead and do it and half the time the people you see doing these things are not necessarily people who have no idea about how the political process works. So really are we not the problem of ourselves if we in one breath are asking for a change in government or we're asking for our government to be more accountable to us and then in the other breath we're taking money and saying Honganuku, kill me. Are we ready to have that conversation? Yes, I get to thank you. So that's actually the point. There is a demand and a supply side to the whole monetization of the political process. It has a demand and a supply side. On the supply side you have the politicians, you have the political parties and the political leaders. On the demand side you have the electorate, the masses, Nigerians who are in the corners of this country. You understand? So both sides are involved in this what they have called vote trading. So the thing is this, as you see in the last prayer, give us this day our daily bread. The average Nigerian, his idea of dividends of governance is not the way it ought to be. The dividends of governance in terms of good roads, he pays his tax, he has lights, affordable healthcare and all of that. It doesn't operate that way. For him the idea of dividends of democracy is what he can get in the moment spontaneously. What have you made the average Nigerian begin to think that way? Yeah, because this illusion meant over time we have seen that politicians come to the campaign stores, they say all kinds of things, they are voted into office, then those campaign promises don't translate into actions. So the electorate, if you notice in the last three of two circular elections, Nigerians refused to participate in the electoral process. They refused to come out and vote and they would tell you that, what am I going to vote? My votes will not count. You understand? So in order to get people to come out and vote, they have to incentivize that process by handing out what they call stomach infrastructure, as was popularized by one politician. So you have to use that to incentivize voters and they get whatever they can get, they cast their ballots and then they wait for the next round of elections. So it's a cartoon to situation and as Mr. Andy pointed out, I don't know when it's going to end because even in the so-called advanced democracies, you see the same thing happening. During the last election in America, there were aspects of vote buying. People on the election day, they were sharing bogus, handing out all manner of things just to get their voters, sorry, their supporters to vote for them. So it's just, I think, is an element of the political process, whatever, in any part of the world. Andy, let's talk about the political parties and the role that they play in this. I know that Serap, which is one of the people in the forefront of trying to fight for the soul of Nigeria's democracy, has taken the big political parties in this country to court because over and over for years, if I'm not mistaken, since 2015, have been asking political parties to make public their accounts and all their spendings before elections and they've still not been able to comply. That case is still in court as we speak. But then political parties are somewhat responsible to the constitution of sorts. INEC also has an oversight function, but every time this issue comes up, INEC will say that they're not law enforcement per se. If we cannot control political parties and how much money is that they're spending, where there is even a cap in the constitution, how do we even control those who have to buy votes at the polling units? So you need structure to be able to do all of this. Merian, how can you, how can you follow the trail of the money spent by politicians in Nigeria? You see, all the things we are trying to do with BVN and all of these things, how can you follow the trail? How much are spent in printing my posters, how much are spent in, how can you really, for when there is no system in Nigeria, Merian, there is no system that is working in Nigeria. Even the banking system has been infiltrated. Did you know yet the CBN governor recently blaming a certain online shop for the fact that Naira is losing value against the dollar? It comes to that indeed something's fundamentally wrong with our people. We are trying to put the cart in front of the horse. We must build systems, Merian, let me just ask you this and let people listen. What do they call structure in Nigeria? Structure is equal to money and the amount of violence you can deploy. QED, nothing more than that. Oh, Wike has got some more structure in reverse state. Money and violence, he can deploy. Oh, Boratinubu has got some more structure in legal state. Money and the violence he can deploy. Structure in Nigerian political parlance is equal to the amount of monies you have got, your watches and the amount of violence you can deploy. And guess what happens? If money is so central to winning elections, do you think that they would even allow you to create a structure that can check it? They won't because they want to consistently perpetuate themselves there. The people have got to take their destinies in their hands. The people have got to devise a methodology, a system, as addressing this nonsense in our society. The politicians are not ready to let go of the watches. They are not ready to let go of the booties. They are not ready to let go of the monies that they are enjoying from this nonsense that we are in in this country. So you and I, Merian, we need to start conscientising the people that if we wait for the National Assembly to plug the holes. We've been having these conversations over and over again. It's not just me. We have had conversations like this. Journalists on the radio, there's so much conversations online. So it makes me really ask, again, is it falling on deaf ears? Or do we just are comfortable in the mediocre or the mediocrity that we find ourselves in for the want of a better world? Unfortunately, please, Merian. The people who are to execute are the executives. The executives are largely elected and selected. The people who are to legislate are the legislators. They are largely elected. But guess what? They have said to us through the very office of the Senate, the very person and the office of the Senate president and the chairman of the National Assembly that whatsoever the president gives to him is going to acknowledge, is going to pass it. It will not be. It will not even vet away. It tells you that there is some collaboration between the executives and the legislature to keep Nigeria in this hole. And I make both to say this. There's some collaboration between them. Otherwise, people should have been thinking about concrete steps. For instance, so that it doesn't sound like Andy is just criticizing. Why do you not want to on Bondola in X? How can you give INEC one commission that responsibility to police electoral infractions, to conduct elections, to pursue and to follow the trail of money that are spent together with some other very, very complex responsibilities that are given to them and expect that INEC is going to perform and perform very wonderfully around these these rules? The truth of the matter is that the Nigerian politicians, they want to keep us this low because they want to perpetuate themselves in office when they are done. They then bring their sons or their children when they are done. They then bring their girlfriends when they are done. They want to perpetuate themselves in offices so that the average Nigerian is going to remain small. Mary Ann, do you know that an average Nigerian politician is not even thinking Nigeria? Let me break it down. His children go abroad to receive education. His wife and himself, they travel abroad to receive medicals. For instance, our jagaban is illegal, is abroad receiving medical treatment. Their investments are abroad. They go abroad to do vacation. Everything about them is outside of this country. How then do you think they are going to want to fix your country? Nothing about them is about this country. The children are educated abroad. They buy clothes abroad. They go abroad to do shopping. They go abroad for medical tourism and everything. Do you think they are going to look at you and not here in Nigeria and want to better our laws? They won't unless we are ready to take it by ourselves. They will be the kingdom of God-suffered violence. And the violence to get to them. Let me come to Raymond. I'll come back to you. Could it be that it has something to do with how our political parties are structured? Because I didn't realize how difficult it is to explain the Nigerian political process to anyone outside Nigeria, as I did yesterday. Because I was trying to explain to a friend of mine who lives in the UK who has never been to Nigeria, who does not understand the political process. And he was lost. So how do you know the difference between party A and party B? And I said, well, they're flags. And, you know, so could it also be that maybe the way our political parties are structured without Cleco's ideologies, maybe this is why the whole political process in itself is the way it is? Well, if it has to do with the issue of the bastardization of campaign finance and funding, I don't see how it turns on the lack of ideology in our political parties. Because why do our political parties not have Cleco's ideology? I think that's it. Someone says that at the level of our politics, that we don't have the luxury to be breaking heads over ideology A or ideology B. At this level, the average Nigerian wants just the basic things of life. So any political party that can deliver good roads, healthcare, education, just those basic necessities, it suffices. We don't have the technical abilities, the technological we are without. To engage in such kind of upscale ideological policies that we see in the U.K. and in America. You say that we do not have what it takes to hold on to ideologies. If we say that we support Labour, or we say we're progressives, or we say we're liberals, you're saying that the average Nigerian cannot, does not have the capacity to comprehend that kind of ideology? Well, you see, at the end of the day, the governance process is all about delivering dividends of governance to the people, right? So whatever ideology you want to actually hang on to, it must translate into dividends of governance to the people you claim to govern. So I don't see it as a lack of, a function of lack of ideology as much as it is a lack of governance in the real sense of it. Let's talk about those who want to break into these political parties, because it's become a boys' club of sorts and you have to either have a godfather or belong to something to be brought to the table. And there are, whether we like it or not, men and women who are very intelligent, who have what it takes to run this country at whatever level that are unable to break through. So how do those people get access into these political parties? Because one minute we're saying, we want people to join political parties, be catcaring members. But then there is a brick wall of sorts that you have to hammer through. So how do we break through, especially for young people, we have the not-so-young-to-run bill. What does it do for us? So the thing is this, in principle it will appear that those, the gerontocratic political class, wants the younger people to participate, in principle. But when you look at it in the real sense of it, you see that there are structures, there are barriers, like what we're discussing now. So it's a window dressing. Yes. So what's what it's called now? The limitation that has to do with to fund any political ambition. It's a whole lot of money. You can imagine in the proposed Amendment to Electoral Act, the campaign to a run for office of president, it has been jacked from five billion to 15 billion. If you want to run for office of governor. You don't think that that's deliberate by the big boys in the big boys club to keep certain people out, because they want to continue. They are the ones who can afford that. You have it in a way. In a way it's part of it. But when you look at it in the real sense of it, if they should write five million error there, we know that they spend way more than that in the real sense of it. So I think it's also a function of the National Assembly being realistic, knowing that we spend way more than this money to fund this particular office. So why should we continue to deceive ourselves? Why not just get the numbers up there and then try to enforce spending to the limit that has been pegged in the electoral act? So as I was saying, those structural limitations are barriers that will prevent young persons to actually aspire to those offices. But that moment standing, it's wanting not have money to finance your elective or political ambition. But you have got to participate in the political process first. So young persons as much as you want to enter into elective offices, we have to enter the political parties, register, become card carry members, participate at 10 meetings, at 10 workshops. You understand why we are doing that? We are building a network. Because even in other crimes, you have to raise funds to actually run for office. You have to raise funds. And the last American elections. But you see in that instance, you do not feel the pressure to be corrupt, to steal. Because the monies that you're raising is the citizens that are coming together because they trust that you can deliver. And they are properly managed. They have fund managers who generate these funds. So put that side by side with what we have. There are lots of question marks around this. Of course there are, but like I said, it shouldn't be a reason for young persons not just to walk away. We have got to participate, build those networks so that when you want to run for an office, you can have people to work up to who can help you generate funds so that you can be able to give those who are already there a run for their money. Well, this conversation cannot stop here. We will continue to have it. Because you know, the election season is upon us. But I want to say thank you, Andy Apotive, and Raymond Canobie for being our guest. We appreciate it. Thank you. All right. We'll take a short break. And when we return, we'll be talking about the kidnapping and banditry in the country. Of course, there's a report talking about how it's been increasing and how it's become a big business of sorts. Stay with us.