 Welcome to episode 17 of the Red Man Group patriarchs edition. We have a special announcement to make tonight. The patriarchs are coming together once again, because at the end of this episode, we'll be launching tickets to 2020 patriarchs. The 21 convention patriarchs edition is returning. Now, as your chief patriarch of the last event, I'm passing the torch to the man, Tanner Guzzi himself. So we're going to go around real quick, introduce the men on this panel, and we're going to dive into what it is we're going to be bringing to the stage again, what the convention is going to be doing for fathers, as well as how we see the future role fathers play in society. So let's start with the new, the 2020 patriarch, the chief patriarch, Tanner Guzzi. How are you doing, man? Great to see you. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm really excited for this year because last year was a blast. And so I'm excited to see this convention continue to grow up as far, you know, we're still getting our feet under us. So this is going to be a lot of fun this year. No, we're looking forward to it. Stefan, a first time speaker at the 21 convention and you're choosing the patriarchs. Well, actually, not the 21 convention, you spoke at the regularly 21, but now a first time speaker at the patriarchs 21 convention. I'm looking forward to hearing it. I'm going out on this panel, given all the hair. I, you know, both. I actually feel like that is my, that's what I'm bringing to the table. Let's just see if you guys can tell the difference. Yes. Between, between me and the stomach. Put eyes on it. Everyone's going to say the same thing. Wait, hang on. Let me just, there we go. Sorry, it was a little off, a little off. No, it's going to be great. And then fatherhood is such an important topic for the world as a whole, and particular in the West, where we really have lost the value of fatherhood. And we've kind of all been elbowed aside by popular culture, tablets and welfare money. So I think there's going to be quite a lot to chat about. And I'm looking forward to, of course, being out there, doing speeches. I was really thrilled to be in Orlando recently giving a speech. It was a lot of fun and it's doing quite well. Certainly a podcast downloads are very high and video views for my rather suppressed channel these days are quite high. So it was a real opportunity. I really thank you guys for giving me the audience and looking forward to the next one. As I was telling Tanner during the last convention, you know, during the patriarchs, I was like, these are my people because that's primarily my message. And I was able to meet you at this last 21 convention. And I was like, man, I was blown away by the content, you know, a few of the engagement you and I had. I'm really looking forward to hearing your perspective when it comes to family. You know, because that's the wheelhouse I like to focus on. And I just like the way you approach things. I'm really looking forward to what it is you're bringing to that stage. Well, I'll tell you this. It's like a big pendulum thing for me because I grew up without a father. My father left when I was a couple of months old and went to Africa. I was in England. So, you know, pretty much if he drilled through the center of the earth, like you couldn't have gotten further away unless you'd gone like into orbit or something. And so having grown up without a father and then myself being a stay at home dad, like, I mean, there's no moderation in my family tree is like one extreme to the other. So having had the father absence and then being an extreme father presence, I think gives a pretty unique perspective to the whole question. Lastly, we're going to bring it back to the beard. Ken. Yeah, I'm Ken Curry. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of Colorado. And there you go. Well done. Yeah. So I spoke at the 21 convention last October as well, like a month ago or so. And it was a incredible experience. I did in the Patriarch. I did a workshop with Dr. Sean and that went really well. Yeah, as you can tell, there's a pretty significant passion that I have with family. And the whole idea of fathering is just gigantic. A huge part of what I do is build strength in men and strength in masculinity. And a really big part of that is being a really good father. And I really believe that father's presence, the way that you spell it, Hunter, with the CE at the end is absolutely one of the most powerful things that a man can have. It's pretty awesome. Being a strong presence in a family, it's really significant. Yeah. Now, I do want to repeat for those tuning in now and catching up at the end of this episode, tickets to the next Patriarch's convention go live. So tune in, enjoy it now. The site's not up yet. If you go there, you're not going to find anything. Unless we finish and wrap this one up, hit it up, get your tickets. It's going to go. This is going to be a big one. I'm super pumped about it because it's different. I guess because I'm super biased. But I'm like, yes, let's go. Let's talk to the fathers and the men who want to become fathers. And Ken, I kind of want to dive into it for early with you. I believe the first time we met outside of Electrons was that 20 Patriarch Convention last year. Yeah, last May or March. May? Yeah, definitely. So it was great to hear your perspective. And we were talking about the future of fatherhood. So that's a pretty broad topic. With yours, with your license, with everything that you've been doing, you've dedicated your life to this. This is your professional network and job and what you do. Have you seen since that Patriarch Convention a shift in the real world or online with your interactions with men when it came to fatherhood and possibly better improvement or worse? Because now you're paying attention to these things after seeing all those men come together. Well, I definitely have always been paying attention to this. It just feels like the conversation online has become a lot more significant as far as it seems like there's some kind of shift. There's because there's a hell of a lot of evidence out there that shows that a man's existence within a family has a huge impact on the kids, on the family, on the state of being, on the well-being of all the members of that family. And so it's the Congress, maybe it is just me since I've been in this, or we've been talking about it where I'm starting to see the conversation is really picking up some steam. Now, Tanner and Stefan, with you guys coming through being family men and fathers, have you noticed, again, a change in the tone when it came to fatherhood or has it always been the same and you kind of just the same tone throughout? Nothing's really changed. For me, there's been kind of a balance of both because amongst my quote-unquote normie friends, especially for me, being out in Utah, being in a religious community, fatherhood has always been very, very present, very top of mind. But it's been really fun because I first stumbled upon the manosphere, you know, all this stuff back in like 2009 when you were reading stuff like Hawaiian libertarian and the spearhead and in Malafide and all this stuff. And it was so much geared around game and all these other things that pick up. And so over the last decade, it has been really fun to see a shift of it just being a focus on women, women, women, women, women to, okay, a lot of us have got that down. We're satisfied with where we are on that, but we recognize that there's still more to being a man. There's more purpose and how fatherhood plays into that. So I've definitely noticed a big shift on that over the last three or four years. And it's been really encouraging to see that, that we're not just caught in this constant cycle of, you know, I can't get chicks. Now I got chicks. I can't get chicks. Now I got chicks again and again and again. And the idea that masculinity is about sex, not fatherhood is definitely putting the cart before the horse. And it's a mistake that is encouraged by culture. It's encouraged by media and this sort of notch on the belts, notch on the, the headboard, you know, how many women can you have sex with and so on. That being the defining aspect of masculinity is, is really tragic. It's really tragic because it's not harnessing the power of sexuality to build a foundation for raising quality sex generation, the transmission of culture and so on. And it kind of devolves us from intellectual, rational, spiritual, philosophical beings to like a level of blind, rutting mammal. And that's saying that the pursuit of the orgasm is the essence of masculinity. Well, the reason why there are men and the reason why there are women is to make families. And this just having been completely scrubbed out of our vernacular and out of our entire approach to how we organize our lives is really tragic because of course the vast majority of men, a significant majority of men find it very hard to chase women who themselves are chasing the alphas, you know, the 10, 20% of guys that they can put on as man candy and that their girlfriends can be envious that they back the guy with the abs or the great hair or whatever it is, right. And so this pursuit where these women are orbiting these alpha males and all the other males are left out in the cold, it's a complete recipe for social weakening and potentially even social collapse. How do you tame the wild hormones and aggression of masculinity? Well, a man experiences two aspects of taming, one when he gets married and the other when he has children. And if men don't get married and don't have children, they have no stake in the continuing of continuance of the society they live in. And once men withdraw from the continuance of well, other males, other cultures, other religions are going to come in and say, well, we'll take it from here. And that seems a bit of a shame given how long it took to get here. Well, that's because you're right. It doesn't matter how strong you are as a man, how competent or capable you are as a man, you as a lone individual will never be able to withstand a competing society. So no matter how well you think you can do, you can't maintain it. And so it's this very short term hedonism that you can think, well, I'm just going to take it. It's not my obligation to save the West and blah, blah, blah, this other black pill stuff. But even from a very limited individualist individualistic perspective, we don't have very long that we can do this without a much more effective society coming in and saying, fine, we'll take all your resources. We'll take all your women. We'll take everything else because you guys are too stupid to even try and maintain it. You're just exploiting all of it. I think there's something to be said to Stefan's point. Family men have literal skin in the game. And that's why whenever I push the message, they're like, oh, you're the trad con trying to save the West. I'm like, I'm not trying to save the West, but I am living a lifestyle that is going to improve my community, myself, and those around me. So in turn, sure, maybe that's the direction we're heading, but that's not the goal. That is not the intent of starting the family. But that's how you do the thing. That is how you take care of your culture. That is how you save the West. That is how you keep value and you keep love up to this point to continue on. You know, what we have now is great, but if you want it to improve, we're going to have to take a few actions and a few steps. And for family men, you know, you're going to make sure that, all right, I'm going to do the right things. I'm going to bring the value to this community. I'm going to bring value to what it is we have going on. And if you don't have children, what's the incentive there? What is the point of doing it? So those guys are like, haha, it's on you guys, family men. Like no, no, no. You know, that's not how that works. We're going to pursue some higher mission, but that's at the same time, exactly what we're doing. So it's one of those... Can you imagine saying to the guys, storming the beach in Normandy or Dieppe or Vimy Ridge or you name it, like the trench warfare that went on. Can you say, hey man, your sacrifice was great. Really, really appreciate it. But I can't be asked to give up video games and porn, so it kind of all ends with me. I mean, they'd be sitting there saying, hmm, we might have been fighting the point of all of that. I mean, if the big sacrifice that can't be upheld by the current generation of men is, hey, you know, it's really great to get a great woman to raise children, to be a family man, to be a husband, to be a father. It's a wonderful existence and it kind of fills up that second half of your life when, you know, things ain't quite the same as when you're 20. If that is too big a sacrifice, then I really don't know what to say about it. But I think that civilization was probably a giant mistake. Wow. Yeah, I think the sacrifice is gigantic. And Stefan, I'll push back on a word you used a little bit ago. You said taming. And I would rather use the word maturing. Because the domestication of men isn't necessarily something I want to happen. But I do want men to become incredibly mature. And I think, you know, when you get married, you're moving toward a people-growing machine. And it grows you up. And it grows you up into a much more mature individual. And I think when you have kids... I think it's fairly safe to say that taming the beast is a much better role play than maturing. But anyway, go on. Oh, that's all I was going to say. I think one thing that needs to be brought up into this though because you will have guys who will say, sacrifice for what? I want to be in the chat right now. I wanted to share it on the screen. We see this as far as there's this sort of, I guess, nobility or this idea of you have to do it for somebody else. But the real irony is that when you get neck deep into fatherhood and you're doing it well and you're doing it intentionally and you're doing it with a partner who's invested in it as you are, you look back at your days of being single the same way that you as an adult who can drive a functioning worker, there's no comparison. And so it's not just this, I'm killing myself and everything about my life sucks, but hey, my family can be happy, but you're actually happier too. It's not killing yourself to save the West. You're killing the old, dead, immature, untamable version of yourself and creating a much better, much more noble and much happier version of yourself. And then that happens to save your family and saves the West as well. And so that's the reason why people are willing to give up their lives for what they had to sacrifice. We're not even asked to do that, we're just asked to give up our stupid heathenism. I believe, you know, when I my last speech at the 21 con patriarchs, the first one was on the patriarch type, and I fully believe that a man cannot actualize the entire spectrum, he cannot experience the entire spectrum of masculinity without a man. And so when you learn to become a lover, alright, you can interact with the opposite sex, that's fantastic. But can you lead a life you've created? Can you lead a life that depends on you to exist? That is the apex, you cannot answer that. And I was immediately countered by somebody saying, so you're saying George Washington is not a man because he did not saw our children. That's not what I'm saying, I'm not saying he's not a man, I'm not saying he's not a man, I'm not saying he's not a man. He's not a man. So George Washington wanted children. He couldn't have them, whether it was him or his wife, we don't know, but he wanted them. So it's not to say he's not a man, but it is to say, you know, men who do not have children do not experience the entire spectrum of being a man. Do you think the audience is ready for a tiny smidge of Steph Bartteffel of because this nihilism of it all ends and there's nothing to fight for. It's like, dudes, good God Almighty, good God Almighty. I don't mean to come down and you're too hot and I'm coming from a place of love, but dear Lord above. Okay, your ancestors had plagues. They had starvation, they had war, they had pestilence. They had one tiny sliver gives you an infection that wipes out your generation in about 13 seconds. They had inclement weather. They had very little capacity to control their environment. They had bad hunting. They had other people with better weapons pouring over the hill and taken out half the village at a time. And they managed to struggle on. It's like people who say, well, it's too expensive to have kids. It's like, you were the second wealthiest generation in the history of the planet. People were having children during the Blitz. People were having children during the Black Plague. The will to life, the will to reproduce, the will to grow. All of the people who are alive are benefiting from the quote, sacrifices of their parents to whine about how there's no point having children. Well, for all of those stuck in that mindset, the only people I'm tempted to say shouldn't have had children as your parents because you came here to start whining about everything and bringing everyone down and depopulating the planet of quality people because all you do is complain about being, oh, we're not as rich as the boomers. Oh, out of the entire spectrum of 150,000 years of human history, you happen to be the second wealthiest. Oh, tragedy, cry, river, drown, death, nihilism, choke on its own suicidality. I'm very much looking forward to this. I'm very much looking forward to the next convention. This is gonna be awesome. But guys, you know, when you look at it, there is that element and all of us have that little chip because you could see it in the way that stuff I was just speaking. And it's one of those things I know, Tanner, you felt it, can you felt it? When you're speaking, you're writing a pro family message, a pro masculine, a fatherhood message and somebody comes in and just throws mud on it. And you're like, come on, man, what do you do? This is such a healthy thing. And you're just so mad at it, why? Now look, it's easy to be caught up in the, all right, you punch me, I punch you, you punch me, I punch you. All right, what's that actually solving? The 21 convention patriarchs though, when you go there, when I went there the first time, and I was talking to Tanner about this, I found my people. There were men there who wanted to start families, they weren't married, they don't have children, they just want, they knew that's what they wanted to do. That was an aspiration for them, an unapologetic aspiration for them, yeah. It was huge. And they're like, look, I was talking to one of the guys, I'm like, why did you come? He's like, I want to do it right. I want to learn this before I have the kids and have to fix something, I want to be proactive instead of reactive. And I was like, that's such a cool thing to feel and to experience, you know, and for all the men there that were fathers and rubbing shoulders, you know, one of the men, Frank, he was there, he did a few interviews with George, it was just incredible. And we have a $10 Super Chat from Darius Thurman. Should men who want families and children create their own legal contracts outside of government marriage licenses to protect themselves and their assets? And yes, Stefan, we are ready for your tough love. So since you got the shout out, Stefan, I'll let you jump on that one. You know, I think men are worried about divorce rape. Well, and listen, I mean, I saw it up close. It can be really brutal and it is basically like firing up your nads and letting a bag full of hungry cats go at them for about three years straight. So I can completely understand that is a very legitimate terror. It is the emotional smallpox of the modern world, you know, and so I can completely understand that. Here's what you do. Everybody who says, oh, marriages have a 50% failure rate isn't just not doing the math. You're not doing the math because that's scattershot. What you wanna do is first of all, I'm a big fan of talk therapy, self-knowledge, knowing yourself, knowing what your weak points are, knowing what your trip up points are, going deep into your history, talking to your family, figuring out where the minefields are within you that are gonna screw you up, right? So you've gotta do that process of self-knowledge and self-actualization. And you've gotta improve the quality of the people in your life. And if that means borrowing upwards through some particular stratosphere of dysfunction and just getting yourself to a better place, do it. You are not here to serve the needs of historical dysfunction. You are here to self-actualize and become a great human being. Get to the right place, have self-knowledge, avoid women who give up easy sex because that's a way of attempting to drug you into having a bond outside of quality and wrapped inside the faulty membrane of hormones. So get quality, get self-knowledge. And if you know yourself, if you're around quality people, if you avoid bonding in the absence of moral and emotional and intellectual trust, then your chances of divorce go down to the low single digits. So people who are all saying, oh, it's 50%, it's 50%, it's like, for sure, you know, if you have blindfolded idiots pack your parachute, you're probably not gonna have a very good jump. But you can pack your own parachute knowing what you're doing and they're gonna float down like a piece of gossamer. Ken, what about your experience with the men who are saying, look, I want this, I do want children, I do want a wife, but I've seen it. Maybe they've seen it through their parents, maybe friends or maybe just through online interactions, you know, the fear of getting pulled into that ring of divorce. And Tanner, I'm gonna come to you last, because you've lived this. Yep. But Ken, throughout your profession, you know, what's your response to men who are saying, look, I want it, but I'm afraid. Oh yeah, it's a real thing. I mean, gosh, the whole, would you call it divorce rape and all that? I mean, the courts are geared toward, even though they'll say it's all about equality and everything, man, it's a rough go. But I think what Stefan's saying is totally on target. And that's the whole idea of being able to build your relationship on a solid foundation. Our whole culture is built on the chick flick and you complete me and all that BS. And the whole idea of the infatuation and I'm in love with you, but I love you, but I'm not in love with you and all this. And the natural progress of a relationship always comes to a place where the honeymoon is over. And there's no longer infatuation is not the main course of the relationship. And you've got to be able to know that I have to build it upon something so much deeper. And so to Stefan's point, if you're just jumping in the sack and it's all about sex or if that's the main priority, or like I'm saying the whole thing of infatuation, it's not gonna last. And so being able to build the relationship on a much solid, a more solid foundation and that's my own being able to have a strong, solid sense of self and putting some really good energy into the whole idea of the vetting process. I mean, we've talked about that a lot. That's the big thing that Shanti Smith talks about is the whole idea of making sure that you pick a really good woman. And there are a lot of good women out there. And so being able to go through the process of being able to do that well. But I think the whole point that probably where it falters so quickly is there's not a lot of men in our culture who have been fathered well. And that's probably the main feature of being a man who has a good solid sense of self, a good identity. And your father is the one that actually provides that for you to be able to teach you who you are and what you can do and that you've got what it takes that he's proud of you. The father's voice is amazingly powerful but most of us haven't gotten that. And so earlier, Hunter, you were asking me, what's my work? That's probably my primary work is helping men to re-father themselves, so to speak and gain that strong internal reference. And then as a dad, you're able to go out and build that with your kids or you can actually have that strong presence in a relationship with a woman to be able to build a stronger relationship. Yeah, there you go. I think what's always fascinated me is how people will get a message. There are men out there who during their marriage they were terrible, they got divorced and they're like, oh, I gotta fix myself. They fixed themselves and now they're like, marriage was terrible. And they totally skipped, they bypassed the point that they were just not good men. They did not make a good decision with the woman they chose. They weren't healthy, they had no mission, there was no purpose. None of the things they are in that moment were who they were when they were married. So they just like, oh, no, the marriage is terrible and don't ever get married. It reminds me of like a sailor going to the car dealership that says, we will finance E1 and up, come in and just sign your name in the contract and they totally bypass your 76% interest rate on that car you just bought that's 11. And then they go out, they're like, oh, they get rid of that, then they go to college become an economics graduate or whatever. And now they're like, look at how bad buying cars is. And buying cars is for idiots and it's the worst thing you can do. And you're like, no, you made a really bad decision and you made a really bad choice. It's not buying cars, it's not marriage. It's being really bad when you get married and not doing the work before you get married that you find yourself in a very tough situation. And tough situations, Tanner, I've heard your story. And for the men who come to you and they wanna talk about the nightmare that divorce can be, I mean, you lived that and you came out of that. Yeah, my situation is maybe a little bit more unique because I'm the one who filed as opposed to my ex-wife being the one who did that but that didn't preclude it from getting real ugly. You know, at one point I had been remarried and my oldest daughter was a week old and we had gone to court because we were still dealing with some legal issues with the condo that my previous wife and I had owned together and they found me in contempt and she asked that they throw me in jail. And so I served 48 hours in jail because I couldn't sell the home because we were upside down on it because it was 2011 and all this, anyway, ugly stuff. So I know firsthand how ugly it is. And I can certainly understand the desire to want to have some sort of legal protection. But the problem is, is the legal protection isn't actually what we're looking for because the legal thing should be at the bare minimum, like maybe the last kind of fallback when really what you're looking for is more of a cultural protection. Because if you and your wife were involved in a culture whether that's a religion or a neighborhood or a broader family or just some sort of a culture that makes divorce something that is gouch, it's low class. It's not something that we do. There are all these costs, these social costs that come from engaging in divorce and nobody's thinking about it from a legal perspective at that point because that doesn't matter. And so we're too quick because we are in a culture. And again, I'm very blessed that I'm not in the same culture that the majority of you guys in the chat are that the majority of you guys, the viewers are. That's one of the things that I talked about in my presentation at the last picture arc was I really do, I feel for you guys who are in the ruins of civilization and I'm blessed to be in an oasis where I still get to be in a culture that very much prioritizes family and divorces taboo. And it's not something that we typically do engage in. And it was incredibly difficult for me to be able to do that. And if you can find a way to be involved in that kind of a culture and totally infuse yourself into that and lead your family as part of that culture, you won't have to worry much about what legal protections you can have because there's gonna be all these other things that kick into place long before that. Now, do you think that, you know, I don't wanna say this the wrong way. Do you think that people bring bad luck upon themselves? Because you know, I had this discussion where you're like, you feel in the bubble. And I was explaining, I was like, look, when I coached Little League, there are two single moms on the team. They're both squared away. Their children have great manners. Those young boys are becoming great men. You know, they have good manners, they're healthy. None of the kids on the team are fat. Everybody is coming together as a community. And I'm like, that's not special. I think, you know, I just make, I surround myself with good individuals or I improve the individuals I'm around. I try to at least. You know, I absolutely deserved the miserable marriage that I was in for my first marriage because I was a piece of crap. I wasn't a morally bad person, but I was a lazy person. I was more interested in consumption and entitlement and doing the bare minimum and wanting to be able to justify my bad decisions because we were on an equal playing field and blah, blah, blah. And it wasn't until I, in my second marriage and on my own personal development, decided this idea of, no, I need to become a better version of myself. I need to pursue that, that I became deserving of a very good marriage and kids who love me and that I get the opportunity to be a father. And so absolutely we deserve so much more than we ever want to admit. We deserve the situations in which we find ourselves. What I'm really looking forward to, you know, is the class of men that will be taking the stage in Patriarchs. You know, we've got this panel. So a lot of guys are on right now, they're really digging the work, you know, that's coming out from each individual here. But we also have Sernovich, who's gonna be coming on, Hulse, Ryan Mikler. You know, Elliot Hulse coming on, you know, he's the strength guy, but he's so much more than that. You know, when he came on last Patriarch, it was insane. Everybody thinks he's the meat head, the muscle guy. No, he's all about fatherhood. It's awesome. So then there's Ryan Mikler. He's a first time speaker at Patriarchs. You know, a good dude. He just went on this crazy DC trip where he's bringing his family and showing them about, you know, American history and all these things. You know, if you check out his Instagram, check out Order of Man, you know, that's his community. But it's awesome to see these guys taking the stage. And then you've got George Bruno, of course, who's coming on, you know, repeat speaker. Another solid individual who when they take the stage, that's a glimpse of what it is they're sharing. You know, you get to hear the speech and that's great, it's fantastic. It's always a great time to sit and listen and learn. But what happens off that stage is those men who are like, all right, I've figured something out, something's working in my life. And then they leave the stage and all the fathers or the fathers to be in that stage, they start talking to you, hey, what about this? What about that? And that's where the real bonds are forged. You know, and it's important, you know, Ken, we've talked about the importance of a tribe and having a community, you know, and these fathers, this might be the first time they get out, you know, it's their first time going out on their own without the family. And I'm really looking forward to seeing, you know, the new faces that show up as well as those were there last year to start to form that little click and start to have that thing happen in their head where they're like, oh, all I need to do is take a few actions in the right direction. And everything will start to, like it's like you tip that little domino, you've ever seen a YouTube video where it's like a one inch domino, knocks on a three foot domino, only five later. You know, that's how it happens. And I'm looking forward to seeing those relationships. And I was wondering, you know, for those who've spoken, what, when you left the stage, what was the theme that you saw amongst all the men, you know, when they're like, all right, I'm ready to go like that little click. Was it just coming together and having that meeting? Or was it, you know, actually, oh, what do you think about this? And I got to work on that one specific thing. I would say that for me the primary experience is we are often alone in our deepest thoughts. And when you kind of dig deep and excavate and share the unmentionables, the deepest thoughts that you have, the biggest concerns that you have, sometimes the biggest fears that you have, we realized that it is depth and honesty that unite us and bring us together. And it is shallowness and inconsequentiality that is the greatest divide, you know, that which is surface deep splits us like a canyon. And that which is very deep brings us together like gravity. And that is the big challenge, right? Because when you are up there in front of a crowd, there's a certain formality, there's a certain, but you know, can you speak honestly? Can you just share thoughts that are deep enough that they have to be common to, you know, we all, if we're quiet enough at a silent room, we can all hear our own heart beating. We can all hear our self-breathing. We can all feel the rush of blood in our veins. And if you get deep enough within yourself, that's where the real connection is with other people. And so, I mean, when I was giving this speech about a month ago, I can't believe it's only a month. I mean, I went through a whole bunch of iterations and I'm like, nope, not honest enough. Nope, not deep enough. Nope, not personal enough. Because if you speak about yourself at a deep enough level, you're fundamentally speaking about everyone. And I think recognizing that you're not alone, because society, what do they do? Well, they shame people into not talking about things that are important and that are honest. And that divides us. And once we're divided, we can just all be pushed over. Yeah, that is so true. I love the whole idea of how this, the dynamic of speaking is one thing, but then it's the conversations afterwards. And it's the being able to meet with the other guys and what you're saying, Stefan, the whole honesty, the authenticity, the openness that men rarely have a context in which to be able to give this to each other. And that's what I've really loved about. That's what I love about what I do and the groups that I do and all that is, it's the powerful thing to hear a man share his deepest shame or his secrets or the things that he's really wrestles with. Because every single man after a man speaks like that, every other man in the group, there's this immense amount of pride in that man and respect. And we don't get an idea that when I share my deep difficulties or the things that I wrestle with, how other men see that, and that's exactly what you're talking about, Stefan, is that other men see that courage to be able to share openly what's really going in, in your heart is something other men respect that deeply. And it's a gigantic pathway to move toward freedom as a man. And we just don't have enough contexts in which to be able to do this type of interaction. And that's one thing I've loved about being able to speak and be a part of the convention. And it's not necessarily the speech that is the thing that does it. It's the conversations afterwards. It's the things that we've done in the, what do you call it in the side room? So the workshops and things like that. That was just incredibly a powerful thing. And we just don't have enough contexts for men to be able to have that kind of interaction with other men. It's just, it's absolutely essential. So I want to give a shout out to two men and then get my third man. So Phil Foster will be speaking at this 21 con patriarchs, who's a fraternity of excellence brother, Texas Dom, big Tex, he'll be speaking again. And this man right here, Anthony Mig who gave us a $20 super chat is also a fraternity of excellence man. And he says, Stefan, can you explain why you support negotiation with raising your daughter instead of punishment and discipline? And I really like that we have these fatherhood questions. This is what it's all about. It's already starting. Well, thanks obviously for supporting the convention, Anthony. So there's a reason why you're incentivizing, I guess getting this question to the top of 20 bucks rather than coming to my house and holding him to Sheddie to my neck and saying, give me an answer man, give me an answer. Because you're negotiating, you're saying, hey, this is a really, really important question. I want to float it to the top. We want our children to be involved in civilized relationships. Now what is civilization? You know, there's an old saying that says the first man to throw an insult rather than a rock was the founder of civilization. And we want our children to grow up to negotiate and to get their needs met. Because what is negotiation? Negotiation is when you're facing a situation like pushing two pieces of paper together, right? Where someone wins and someone loses, right? Like you can't both get it, right? So you need to negotiate so that you can find a win-win solution. And that's a creative way to try and solve the problems, right? Because we don't all want to do the same thing. I'm ambivalent about what I want to do sometimes at any point in the day. So when you have a bunch of people together, there's a lot of differing opinions, a lot of differing priorities and you have to figure out a way that you can all get what you want to the best of your ability. Now you're not gonna be able to do that by threatening people. Threatening people is direct, right? Somebody wins, somebody loses. Somebody's needs dominate and somebody's needs completely evaporate. It is an unpersoning. It is an erasure of the other human being in the negotiation. Because not a negotiation anymore. Once you threaten, once you use force. And threat, of course, can be the obvious, you know, direct physical threat. It can be violence. Or it can be that, you know, white lip slam in the kitchen cupboard, storming around, making life unpleasant for everyone until you get your way, which is a form of underhanded emotional terrorism that is also threatening. It can be the threat of withdrawal. It can be the threat of withholding sex. It can be the threat of withholding money. There's lots of different ways that you can bully people into getting what you want. I don't want my daughter to grow up into having those relationships. Now, myself, I don't speak Japanese. So I'm not gonna get into a relationship with someone who speaks Japanese. I don't speak that language. Like we can maybe do some miming, we can do some hand puppetry, but we really can't get into any complicated discussions. So I don't want my daughter growing up speaking the language of intimidation. I want her to grow up speaking the language of negotiation. So if someone comes into her life, and surely they will, because it's a big wild world out there, someone's gonna come into her life and try and bully her. But she doesn't speak that language. Like, so it's like someone coming up and trying to negotiate with her in Japanese. It's like, I'm sorry. Other than a few lines from a stick song, I don't speak that language. So that's really, really important. I want her to stay in win-win negotiations because the only relationships that last are mutually beneficial relationship. If you exploit someone or they exploit you, there's that gunpowder fuse that's gonna blow the thing up sooner or later because we can only suppress our own needs for so long before they're gonna erupt in anger and resentment and so on. And so the only way that she's gonna have stability and productivity in her life is if she makes sure that she's concerned for the other person's experience and the quality of the relationship that they're going on. It's just like when you have a business. Of course you wanna make money, but you want your restaurant patrons to also enjoy their damn meal. It's gotta be a win-win situation. So by negotiating with her, I'm saying to her my needs are important and your needs are important as well. I'm talking about when she's older, when she's a toddler and a baby, it's all her needs, right? My needs are important, your needs are important and the exciting challenge that we have as people who are in a relationship is to figure out how both of our needs can be met in a creative and productive manner. And when she speaks that language, she cannot be exploited. She simply cannot be exploited any more than you can be conned by a very gentle, smoking Japanese person if you don't speak Japanese. You just don't understand fundamentally what they're saying and she'll recoil from that. And so it's a way of embedding her in a quality relationship paradigm that will draw good people to her, that will repel bad people away from her like some sort of magic force field. And better than that, I can't imagine to do it. If I threaten her and intimidate her, I'm simply teaching her a language I don't want her to understand when she gets older. Okay, I have a follow-up question for that. I saw you pondering over there. Yeah, because no, I love this idea of thinking about it this way, but then doesn't that teacher that everything in life is negotiable? And so how does that line up against moral principles and the kind of things that shouldn't be negotiable, that should be held fast, that should be spoken in a different language? Well, that's a good question. So I'm gonna pretend that my internet is cutting out. No, so no, this is a great question. Of course there are some things that aren't negotiable. So I was saying that exploitation of another I mean, it's immoral, but there's also a lack of practicality to it because it sows that seeds of destruction, right? So if she wants to do something and I wanna do something different, I don't just fold and say, well, we'll do what you want. I say, my needs are important and your needs are important and we'll figure a way that we can get them both met. Maybe there'll be some deferral, maybe instead of you wanting to do A and I wanna do B, maybe we'll think of C which will be something that we can both enjoy. So by not giving up my needs and not erasing her needs, I'm teaching her that it is really, really important to do that. And when you teach people that other people's needs matter, then they're not going to want to do immoral things because that's gonna harm the needs of another person. Like that's a kind of consequentialist argument and I'm, you know, I don't wanna get into a whole moral discussion of ethics. I've got a whole book on that for free on my website, but if you teach her that other people's needs matter, then she's not going to want to do hurtful or ugly things to someone because those other people's needs matter. At the same time though, you have to teach her of course, as I'm sure you do, that her needs matter as well because you don't want her to be exploited either. And that's really important and recognizing that the healthy use of anger, right? Cause a lot of time anger gets really pushed down in our society. Our society's become kind of superficial and fragile. But it needs to be channeled instead of suppressed. Yeah, and anger is your body's immune system that says I'm being taken advantage of in some hellacious manner. You don't want to suppress that, but you also don't want to react to potential exploitation with rage because then you're not negotiating anymore. So teaching her, I think all of this complexity is important, but yeah, when it comes to moral rules, the best way that I've found to teach moral rules is just to universalize, right? So, you know, if she makes a promise to me and breaks it, it's like, oh, so we can just break promises now. Is that the rule? Like I can just, I can make promises and I can break them too. And she's like, no, no, no, I don't want that. You know, it's like, okay, well, if you don't want that, then don't do that, right? I mean, it's an old Kantian principle. You act as if the principle, if your action becomes universal rule and that's a very, very powerful thing with kids, right? Because she doesn't want me to make promises and then break them. She doesn't want me to lie to her. And if I take her behavior and universalize it and she doesn't like that, then it's like, okay, well, now I'm teaching you empathy about how other people are experiencing your breaks in integrity. What about things that don't directly or immediately affect other people? Like how she treats her body or how she manages her time or her own emotions? Because I totally see the validity of this when it comes to how we interact with other people and the power of negotiation and seeing other people as people instead of objects and now absolutely all the validity of that. But to me, it still feels like there's a hole when it comes to, well, I can just negotiate that I want to do this and it's bad for me or what? And so- Or I just eat all my Halloween candy in two days or whatever. I do a kind of negotiation that's more internal as opposed to interpersonal. Well, so there's empathy to the other and then there's empathy through time. In other words, empathy to your future self, right? So the way that I deal with that is I say, okay, first of all, our job is to deliver you to adulthood with a healthy mind and body, right? That's your job. And so, you know, if you, not that she does, she's a great hoarder of candy because she's, you know, Northern European. So we're always preparing for the winter, always preparing for the winter. So I say to her, listen, if you eat all that candy, then that's gonna be bad for your teeth. It's gonna be bad for your body, fat composition and so on. We go through all of that. And it's like, I can't let you do that because I have to deliver you to adulthood with a healthy mind and body. And also what I say- There's no negotiating with your future self, but it's forward empathizing with your future self. Yeah, so I say to her, okay, imagine you're 18 right now. Now when you're 18, would you be happy or sad if you ate a lot of candy when you were younger? Right, and she will say, well, I would be sad. I say, well, why would you be sad? Oh, I might be fat, I might have bad teeth, I could have diabetes. Like what all the stuff that we sort of talked about, consequentialist of the sugar addiction that makes up most of the British Isles of which I come. So you have to say to her from the future, from your future, looking back, what do you want you to do? And I say, you know, I imagine some guys smokes all day and 20 years later dies of cancer, right? Like the guy who's on his deathbed, did he wish, is he happy he smoked? Like of course not, right? Of course not. And so putting herself forward in time and having empathy for what that person forward in time wants from her now is a way I think of giving her a balance between present hedonism and future sustainability and so on. And of course you have to model that as well, right? So if I want her to not eat candy, if someone offers me a candy, I say, no, thanks. I mean, do you want this candy? Yes, I do, but I'm not gonna take it because of X, Y and Z. So well, I wanna continue this further. Maybe we can talk, because even the idea of... Because you're making my job as a moderator. It's super difficult. Right, I'm sorry. This is the tanner of getting his questions answered. Right, this is, yeah, thank you guys for letting me monopolize the time. But even as I think about it from my own perspective, because I don't wanna teach my kids, and again, religion, you know, that's a huge part of my moral structure and everything else. And I don't wanna teach my kids that you can negotiate with God. And so I wanna think about this more and we can talk about this more in the future. Wait, but isn't prayer an attempt to negotiate in a sense because you're trying to figure out what God wants? You're saying to God, what you need? God may say, no, it's not what you need. What you actually need is this. There is a negotiation element, and I'm not saying as equals, because I get the sort of mind and all of that. But if you don't have a relationship with God, you wouldn't want to teach your children that, you know, you're God's slave, that God is the dominant bully and you just obey. You know, God gives you free will. God gives you moral reasoning. God gives you negotiation powers. And God's will is sometimes not the clearest in the known universe. So there does have to be a negotiation, even with the divine. So because of course God wants you not to be a slave, otherwise you can't earn any moral achievements, right? Because you're not choosing and you're not down. Right, exactly. Okay, okay, I'm gonna think about this more. This is great. I've appreciated you indulging me in this. So thank you. I've thrown into the chat, you know, this is exactly like, I love this. I wish we could just sit and do this for a few hours. You know, that'd be a great show to me. Wait a minute, we do have a few, so why not just let it run? But for the men that are watching this and those that attended, you know, this is what we do at the convention. We'll sit around the table and have this discussion. You know, and this is, I think it was Stefan who said it earlier, the taboo around having these conversations on these subjects. You're not allowed to talk about raising children. What about this religion or that? What about this discussion or that? How do you, there's no manual as to what perfect parenting looks like. So you do your best, but there is a way to engage with another where you learn, you know, maybe I could do a little bit better in this area or maybe I could do a little bit better in that area. So you think you're doing your best until you meet somebody who's doing better than you or at least you perceive them to be doing better than you in a certain area. And you're like, oh, awesome. I'm gonna try that. And let's see, maybe it doesn't work. Maybe it backfires. Okay, it's constant experimentation. But what was just happening there that dialed, that's a genuine discussion between two fathers about, hey, what does Wright look like? You know, and let's cut, let's, maybe we meet in the middle. Maybe I'd go further on your side. Maybe you come further on my side. Maybe I convince you. It's one of the things I love about this panel and the speakers that we have is that we're open to change. And it's not dogmatic. This is the only way. And if you're not doing this way, you're wrong. But no, we don't have that. We don't know. So we're just trying to do the best, which is why, again, the patriarch's convention is such a good thing because it brings fathers together to do things they don't normally get to do. I cannot tell you. And Tanner, I think you're very blessed with this in your life. There aren't men in my physical circle, as of yet, where I can sit and talk about this around a table. I don't have those physical world friends. Now, inside FOE, inside the return of excellence, we have these conversations weekly. And that's kind of my fix, but that's electronic. For me, it's like Project M, though. You've got those guys who're doing that thing. I'm looking to build that in my life. I'm looking to find that core physical group, like we weed up in the real world physically, and we go out and do a thing, or we talk about a thing. But this is the next best thing. Having it electronic, face-to-face, text does not convey tone very well at all. It doesn't. It's only effective on Twitter without we communicate things. Exactly. So this is close. This is very close. And the discussion you saw was organic. It just happened, and that's real. But in the real world, it sort of solidifies, like, all right, this is real. That's a real friend. That's a real man. That's a real thought. It's not some caricature trying to become Mr. Super Dad. It's no, it's just a man raising children, trying to do better. And that sort of leads me to something I wanted to pick your brain about, Ken, because it's been about 45 minutes since you and I have had a chance to talk. Yeah. When you have men coming to you, there's always this question of, look, do I have children early in life, or do I wait until I'm established and I'm settled? When's the best time? And for me, I was, my son was born at 21, my daughter at 23, you know, or 22 and 20, I didn't know what they were born, 22, 25, sorry. That's a long question. You know, it took a little while to pop out. That's right. I hope you swallowed some tablets. Really spent the process. But Ken, you know, these men come to you with these questions, like that, early, late, what if I have a girl? What if I have a boy? All these things, when they come to you with these questions, how do you decide how to respond? Because you can't give them the right answer. No. There is no right answer. So what's your approach to, whether it's helping the man decide when to have kids or a woman wants to have kids and the man's, I don't know, we're supposed to wait until we're 35, according to the book I read, what do we do? Oh my gosh. So this whole thing, so one of my lines is, that parenting prepares you for parenting. And it's like, you can't be prepared for it. You have to do it for a long period of time before you actually prepare to do it. That's backwards. But that's kind of how it is. It's one of those things that you enter into the void. You enter into uncertainty. You enter into, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. But, and I don't know why it's designed like this, but it is a thing, like I said earlier, it's a thing that grows you up toward maturity. And you become a much better father as you father. But you start off, I started off the same thing with you Hunter, I think I was 24 when my daughter was born. And I was just a kid. I was just a kid. I had no idea. I was pretty good at taking care of the baby and changing diapers and some of that stuff. But I'll tell you what, it's like to be able to figure out when you're gonna do it. Yeah, you can wait till you're a little more mature, something like that. But even then, it still is gonna be something that it's gonna grow you up wherever you come from. And just be ready to make it stretch the hell out of you. And just be ready that it's gonna teach you, it's gonna grow you. And yeah, that's really all I can say on that, I guess. Stefan, do you ever get asked that question? Not that question like earlier later, but questions about how should I live my life from these men about when it comes to a family? Yeah, I don't think you should learn to pilot when the plane's off the ground. I mean, I think that there are things that you can, I mean, I know that there's a lot of like, there's some stuff that's gonna come up that's unknown. But the whole point of philosophy, of course, is to give you some basic principles and then that's what you negotiate with it, right? So for me, the non-aggression principle, you cannot initiate the use of force, which is why I'm anti-spanking, anti-circumcision, anti-threats against children because spanking children is hitting a defenseless, helpless human being. And it's a violation of the non-aggression principle. The non-aggression principle says you're only allowed to use violence and self-defense. And unless your toddler is really good with a flamethrower, I'm pretty sure it's not self-defense when you're a smack in your toddler. So once you say, okay, like violence is off the table. Like aggression is off the table. That's when you get creativity. That's when you get creativity. That's when you get the growth, right? So there's a civilization. Why are we negotiating all the time because violence is off the table? And because violence is off the table, we get great things like free markets and great things like prices and contracts and all these kinds of cool things that are kind of the essence of civilization because we've said, okay, how are we gonna resolve a dispute? So we're gonna try and reason it out. If we can't reason it out, we're gonna go to court and you know, whatever, like there's some way that we're gonna do it other than going over to someone's house with a big club, with a spike coming out of it or something like that, right? So civilization progresses to the degree to which we abandoned the use of coercion. Oh, how am I gonna pick my crops? How about I don't have slaves? Oh, look, I've got this really giant cool robot that sweeps from end to end in a field, sucking up wheat based up on the power of dried up dinosaur juices from like 300 million years ago. You get really, really cool stuff. And so once we abandon coercion, we get massive creativity and growth and productivity in society. And it's the same thing with parenting. So for me, yeah, there's a lot of complications, a lot of like, you sit there and ponder how am I gonna handle this situation? But there still has to be the basic principles of non-aggression and non-violence in your parenting. And that's the only way you're gonna get to the creativity and complexity and maturity. What is maturity? Maturity is knowing that you can handle situations that are fairly unique or unknown or unprecedented for you based upon a significant investment and enactment of basic principles. And so for me, the non-aggression principle, it's how I run, of course, my life as an adult. I don't, you know, I ask a friend to come to a movie if they say they're busy, I don't just go kidnap them. I mean, it's just not, it's just not how I roll, so to speak, right? If the store doesn't give me a discount, I don't use my 10 finger discount and walk out, you know, with a big giant, I don't know, beach ball under my raincoat or something like that. So it's the same thing with parenting and all my relationships. Like I will not use aggression. Doesn't mean I can't get angry, but being angry doesn't mean that you have to be abusive or aggressive or anything like that. In fact, usually it's quite the opposite if you repress it too much, it goes that way. So I think going into parenting with those basic principles say, I'm not sure exactly what I'm gonna do, but I know what I'm not gonna do. I'm not gonna threaten, I'm not gonna use force, I'm not gonna use violence, I'm not gonna use aggression to get what I want. Because once you do that, all the other avenues that you could possibly take to resolve a situation vanish, you know, the old saying, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if all you have is aggression, that's what you're gonna bring to bear on conflicts with your kids. And boy, you can browbeat and dominate them when they're knee-high to a grasshopper. You know, when you're doing this, it's a whole lot different than later on when you're doing this and going up because they're bigger than you now and they're more independent and so on. And if you teach them, the bigger and the stronger person bullies and gets their way as you get older and they get to be teenagers, it's like, well, thanks for the lesson, dad. I'm going out with the bad guys. I really like the way you framed the response to that question. In the way I respond to the question of me about how do you do this or what do I do with my family? I tell them what I do. I don't tell them what they should do. How should I raise my kids? Well, here's what I do. I, again, you know, peaceful parenting, I follow that, you know, treating them as young adults instead of children. I follow, you know, here's what I do. I'm not telling you, you have to do this or you have to do that, but I've done this and my children are happy. My children are healthy. My children are successful in their physical, you know, their sports and their endeavors. You know, so those are the results I've gotten from these actions. Now, Tanner, you've also made your family a part of your message and there's, there's a bunch of us on, you know, primarily Instagram that are sharing photos. Like, here's me with the kids, here's me doing this, you know, so when you do that and my expectation, I've never really asked you this, but when you do that, you share that part of your life, people want to know, well, why do you raise your kid this way? Or why are you doing it that way? And well, I do this and you're saying not to, so are you wrong? You know, have you had your parenting styles critiqued or questioned by followers or anything? Yeah, absolutely. And I, more so, more so from family than from followers, ironic. Really? Oh yeah, yeah. I thought it would be strangers that would actually go after you. Well, I think a lot of it for me is I don't get, I don't necessarily talk about tactics or stuff like that. I promote how much I enjoy being a father and how meaningful it is for me, but I don't necessarily talk about, because I feel like I'm just figuring this stuff out as I go. And the idea of, you know, I've had a couple of people ask me, it's like, okay, when are you gonna write a book on being a dad? That's not happening because I have no idea. I'm really good at raising good kids until they're seven because that's how old my oldest is. And I know that you're a good kid right now. I have no idea if I'm good at raising teenagers or if I'm good at raising young adults because everything that we've done thus far could totally blow up in our faces. I'm hoping it's not going to and we're doing our absolute best, but I'm by no means an expert when it comes to any of this. And so, thankfully, I don't get a lot of people who really push back on how I do it because I don't necessarily talk about, this is what you should be doing because I don't know what I'm doing. I'm doing my best to be intentional, but I don't have a bunch of rules or anything else like that that's like follow this formula and you're guaranteed to have great kids. I love when that's the trump card though we used against you. I'm like, my daughter is seven, my son's 10. And so I'm like, well, my kid's 14, so you don't even know until they're 14. I'm like, how does that negate everything? I mean, you're correct. I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm just gonna give up and I'm just gonna sit in front of the TV and then it doesn't matter anymore. But that's the thing, that's the ultimate and that's not the point of what we're doing. How many times have we been told that, well, just wait until you've been married for X number of years and you've got threshold and it's like, my marriage doesn't suck like yours did. Sorry. I don't have a body like you did at 30. Sorry. Everything that they tell you just waits is a stupid argument because it's them trying to justify the fact that their lives suck because of their poor decisions. And then when you hit it, they're like, well, you're too old. You don't get it. Like what? I'm 90 years old with 70 year old kids. I thought I made it and I didn't make it yet. Damn. If you only remembered what it was like to be 10, you know, that's the thing. And that's why, you know, with 21Con, you know, obviously we're coming together right now for the patriarch's edition. So these are fathers and soon to be fathers are to become fathers. You know, it's the ultimate event for fatherhood because it's the only event for fatherhood that I know of that is specifically targeting men who are leading families or want to lead families to talk about these very taboo issues. Whether it's, should you spank your kid or not? Should you homeschool or not? Should you, you know, the list goes on about youth sports and way to put them in, ways to raise your sons. How do you create a right of passage for your boys in a modern world where, and I think you brought this up recently, Tenor. You know, and I'm kind of facing the same thing. When your children are living a suburbian middle class life, what obstacle are they have to overcome? What hardship turns them into a man? How do you make them continue to push when their material needs are already being met? Or do you force poverty on them so that they develop a work ethic? And maybe I'm again, biased because I'm a part of this, but what other groups or organizations are doing that or having those discussions? You know, there may be some. You know, we talk about this a lot in FOE. You know, we do talk in my group, you know, and I guarantee in your groups, you guys talk about these things as well. But to get a convention dedicated strictly to this subject matter, I think it's changing the game. You know, these men show up and they leave and they impact 30 other dads because men will follow the example of another man. Like, oh, that guy's playing catch with his kid and I'm sitting here watching mine. Oh, hell no. I'm not gonna be the dad on the sideline. Sorry, just wanted to jump in with this question of danger and struggle and so on is a big one. I have a bit of an unorthodox approach. I subscribe to a service called Random Coyotes in the bathroom. And what they do, of course, is they will just deliver wild animals, not necessarily feral, but often rabid. And you know, you give them access, you give them the codes and it's random, right? So just, you know, they forget about it for a while and then, you know, pull back the shower curtain. Random coyotes in the bathroom. And that I think has, it doesn't help them sleep very well but it certainly does help them. They get tougher. Yeah, they get, well, they certainly get. You know, the reflexes. Yeah, the reflexes are very, very, you know, I mean, obviously I started off with 12 kids. We've whittled that down a little bit now. Trust me, the ones who are still around are strong, baby. But it is, it's a real, for me, it's a real worry because you don't, I don't want my children to, I want them to be able to separate the value of work or the value of struggle or ambition or pursuit from the value of money. I want to raise kids who were young Alexander the Greats where all of my material needs are met and I still want to accomplish more, right? As opposed to, well, we have enough money, so I'm going to wander all of dad's wealth and we're done. Stan, did you get going on there, Tanner? Yeah, I need to say hi-bar, that's all, that's it. I'm not talking about the time you're 17, I'm just saying it's Caesar. I'm not taught by Aristotle, I don't even want to hear from you. Exactly, exactly, right? Otherwise, it's just a huge letdown. I have a feeling Tanner's kids might have their own struggles. So, no expectations. But I think what we are, what we are talking about is how do we create initiation process for kids? How do we initiate them into difficulty? How do we push them into things that are uncomfortable? How do we take them into the dark, uncertain places of life and actually let them find out that they got what it takes? Right, and get them to want to do that on their own as opposed to always being forced by some other external circumstance, their dad or the fact that they don't have money or the fact that they're rejected by women or something else to internally have that drive to say what's the next thing that I'm capable of doing? I'm not sure if Australia, they'll pretty much learn that there's going to be some real struggles in the world, which everything will kill you. You just take them out into the parking lot where the people who come to listen to your philosophy speech or happen to their buses try to be tipped over by a bunch of violent leftist thugs and it's like, yeah, we got some work to do. Daddy's embedded in a superhero movie that ain't going to end with Daddy, so you've got some work to do. Hey, here's my Wikipedia page. Do you think we might have some work to do to make the world a better place? Yeah, we just might. But Tanner, that's one thing I loved about your Patriarch speech last May was the whole idea of the guzzies do this. This is our values, our family values. And what we're talking about here is this is a family value. Like you were talking about guzzies do this, guzzies do that, and it's like, yeah, guzzies enter the void. Yeah, they go into the arena. Your story about boxing. That's what it is. This is what our family, a family value we have is that we actually push ourselves into tough situations and potentially dangerous, maybe not as bad as the feral animal you have. Yes, I mean, send me that. You have an ostrich in Mount Nexmo. Just stand by, an ostrich is going to show up at random courtesy of me. Right, I mean, there was an option for botulism in the random water, but we decided not to go with that one because, you know, seems a little harsh. It was a little run over there. That's the rough sell. You can start with an animal, you can finish with a virus. So when you look at all, and this, trying to wrangle you clowns, I'll move back on to what's happening. For a 21 convention, one of the biggest things I saw from literally day one to like day two or day one to day three, you know, just like a 24 hour time period, 24 to 48 hours, the change in their mindsets of I'm ready to do the thing. Tanner, you went and boxed. Your son was wrestling, and I was like, that's really cool. So I don't follow any martial art. And I'm like, that's a problem. I want to do something outside of just being at my house and writing and creating content. I've got access to a gym and I've got access to my home gym, but I want to do something else. So I'm going to sign myself and my kids up for this local jujitsu place. Good man. But I want to show my kids, like, look, I'm uncomfortable too. I don't know what's going on. I've never wrestled. I played football, that was it. This is super out of my element, but we're going to do together as a family. You know, it's going to be fun. It's going to be a good time. They're super pumped. They're like, yeah, because they read Wade Warwick from Jockable Link. So they're like, yeah, I'm going to get choked out by a kid and that's going to be so fun. But I'm like, really, I'm going to get choked out by like a teenager and that's going to suck. I think that's such a good way to do it because they see you putting yourself into these situations. And it's not that I have to do this in order to be able to put food on the table. It's not going to a nine to five. It's that dad is setting the example of pushing himself and becoming a better version, not just because it's tied to whether or not we have a nicer house, but because this is this is who we are. And that's what you see though at the convention. These men see like, oh, like you see it click in their head that insight. They're like, wow, they have their aha moment. I need to be doing this in front of my kids. I make $250,000 a year. Yeah, but when you go home, you're always tired. So you kick your feet up and you relax and you open the beer and you're like, all right, I made a great sale today, but your child and your wife, your spouse did not see that. All they see is you sitting down and relaxing every time they see you. They want to go play catch. I got to relax. They had a tough day at work. Well, I understand we've got a mansion. We've got six cars. I use sign me up for any sport I want to do, but you never play catch with me. And these dads, they don't understand that until they go to the convention and they are or they see episodes like this and they're like, whoa, maybe I should be doing something a little differently. I didn't realize making a lot of money did not elicit a response of respect and admiration for my family. All it did was have them recognize, I'm just a minute, like money shows up and I sit relaxed and that's the kind of man I am. Well, I had, you know, every now and then you like, life's like a pinball game. Sometimes you just run into someone, boom, you know, and puts you off in a totally different direction, which is I think what these conventions are to a large degree all about. So many, many years ago, was sort of two things that popped into my mind. One was an elderly French couple who lived upstairs from my little apartment that I grew up in London. And I remember every now and then these like little pearls of wisdom just drop off elder voices like without preparation, without any rhyme or reason. And this guy said, I won't do his accent or anything, but he said, you know, if you don't get married you may date 10, 20 people, maybe 30 people your whole life and that's, but you want to get to know them really well. You get married, you get to date a couple of hundred people because your wife is always changing and your old was changing and that's where the real thing is. And I'm like, whoa, dude, you just blew my mind. And the second was with regards to this money thing. So I was working with a fellow in my early professional days. And you know, we got to know each other fairly well. Then he asked I grew up and I said, yeah, I grew up really, really poor. You know, if I wanted a bike I had to basically just go to garbage bins and find bits of bikes. And just, you know, I had that Franken bike that, you know, like two different handled bars and different sized wheels and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, it was kind of rough. And he said, yeah, you know, like I really feel for you my sort of situation was kind of different. Like my family was very wealthy but nobody had any time for me. And I remember I left my bike somewhere the bike got stolen and my dad just, yeah, just here's some money go buy yourself a new bike. But nothing meant anything. Like I had all the, you had no bikes and that was a problem. And I had all the bikes that I wanted. And you know, who's to say who's better off? And I was like, whoa, dude, you and the French guy must be related because you're slow in my mind here. And that is really, really important. Your children want you. Your children want you. Like if you ask kids, would you like to have quality time with your parents or would you like a house with five bedrooms instead of three? Come on. Everybody knows the answer to that. The money vanity is to serve the ego of the father and the degree to which we follow Mammon, the degree to which we follow status, right? Vanity is a great sin. It is a great problem for both genders. And for women, the vanity is, you know, you can look like a 12 year old gymnast, your whole life is like, no, you really, you really can't. And the vanity for women tends to be around looks and the vanity for men tends to be around status. And a lot of women will end up with either no children or low quality parenting because they're focused so much on vanity, the vanity of looks and a lot of men end up at the same situation because they're focused on the vanity of status. And it's like that old car commercial where one guy is like, hey man, this car shows what a stud I am. And it's like a Lamborghini and like really, really cool. And then some other guys like, well, this car, what can I tell you, it's a station wagon with like nine seats, so many kids, right? It's like, yeah, that shows you what real stud you are. The Lamborghini is just like an idiot's play thing. Make the minivan a status symbol again. It's interesting as you were saying that I was thinking of how women will take that perfect photo about how everything's great and the perfect angle and the perfect spot. And they posted on Facebook and they're like, all right, I'm great, but they never like, that's not really you. You made that little moment up, but you don't get the satisfaction because that's not your life. That's just a moment you made up. And for men, you get the status, I got this life, I got this car, I got this house, but it's the same thing. That's just like a little thing you made up. You don't really get the fulfilling aspect behind it where you're like, no, I have children who love me and a wife who loves me and respects me. And when I come home, they come running out, like dad, big hug, like no, like if you're coming home to a house where people are plugged into their screens and they don't recognize you even showed up, even though you have the nice house and cars, you're not getting the other part of it. And that's the other part of it is what you want. That's the intangible aspect that's probably the greater aspect of that life. That's not probably the greater aspect. It's the whole thing, what does a man provide? And being a provider is a really gigantic thing for being a father. I'm a provider and that's a big deal, but you got to remember the most powerful thing to provide is your presence. It's your being, it's your attention, I'm here. And that is such a powerful thing, but so often if I am driven by status, I'm not going to be doing that because me spending time with my kids doesn't seem like it has that same kind of return on my investment until later on, where the kid's going, thanks dad, that was awesome. And the kid really gets some powerful impact on that. It changes everything. We have Christmas coming up and I know there are a lot of men out there who are thinking I need to buy them everything they want. And you know, my wife and I, we've decided we're not buying our kids many gifts. We're getting a vacation. You know, we're gonna do, we're sharing, like, hey, here's some new goggles and store, they're not watching this, so I'm not exposing any secrets. So some goggles, yeah, no, because we're going to a place on a big mountain, you know, it's got like this hot tub and like a nice little getaway, but it's a family, it's an event, it's an experience. You know, they're not gonna have 50 Game Boys and like 30, no one would have 50 Game Boys, I don't know why I said that, but they know a bunch of games and a bunch of things like that, you know, it's not about, you know, these toys. It's about, hey, these moments we can have together because when you raise your children, you raise your children's children. And again, this goes to, not you, you men get it, but it's to the man watching this thinking, like, wow, I thought buying them a bunch of stuff, that was showing I love them and it's not. What if you bought them one thing but that one thing gave you three days alone with them to go out and go do something to explore, to ski, you know, to hike, whatever it is, you can replicate. Well, and it's even in addition to that, it's how well you can do while you're in that experience because I think a lot of people, we rightly see the problems with consumerism and buying more material things, but then we've replaced it with this other false God and I'm not accusing you of doing this Hunter, but this idea, well, I don't buy things, I buy experiences, but then we're always chasing that meaning through the next trip or the next vacation or learning the next language or anything else and we can do that with kids and you can be stressed out and pissed off and grouchy and everything the whole time in a great way. The Griswold's Christmas. Exactly, and it's not gonna do them any good, or you can go camping in the backyard and be present and have it be an incredible experience. And so it is, as you always say, presence over presence and it's that ability to, do you connect? Are you building a family identity? Are you building their identity as opposed to just filling that void with things to do or things to own in hopes that that's gonna create healthy human beings and that's, it doesn't work. Mm-mm, does not. Well, kids toys are a depreciating asset, but memories will always depreciate. Uh-huh. That's well said. Sorry, I know everyone's expecting the big speech. That's all, that's like, that's like, who's supposed to follow that one up? Me! Yeah, right. Who invited this guy? Sorry, normally I'm a novelette. This was just a 14 cookie, that's all I got, man. So, that was very well said. It's one of the, also when you see, to your point, somewhat Tater, is when, all right, we're going on vacation and their whole vacation is just rolling on the phone. Guys, go out and play. Like, are you kidding me? You defeated the entire point of this. You can get to know your child, you know? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Kiera. I can't come and play with you. Someone is still wrong on the internet. Yeah, because it's not just us, we do it too, yeah. Oh, that's so bad. It happens. It does, yep. Now let's shift this back to the convention again. With, I guess with your angle, and we're gonna, I wanna do a little round of the horn here. So we'll start with Ken. What approach or what issue are you seeing that you plan to tackle with your speech in the upcoming patriarchs? You don't have to flesh it out, I get it, it's a while away, but obviously all of us, there's something that keeps popping up that we're like, all right, I need to hit this, this is the nail I'm gonna hit. Yeah, there's a couple things that I'm still bouncing around. I don't know what it would be. You can share it. No, it's not gonna be a surprise, you know? Well, so yeah. One of these five. Yeah, one of the things we've been talking about, it's kind of underlying, you know, when Tanner and Stefan were talking about the negotiation process, underneath all that is the whole idea of power. And what the hell is power? How does a man hold the power? How does a man be powerful? How does a man empower his kids? You know, it's like power is so huge and our culture sits in this thing of the zero sum power. If one person has the power, the other person has no power. And so, and it's just, that's not the way a family father needs to be able to look at, this is how power is. How can I be powerful so that I can give power? So it's much more of a collaborative power. It's much more of an abundant power. There's plenty of power to go around for everybody. And so the whole idea of power and how do we use that as fathers and as men is a really significant thing of in bouncing around. The other, actually, we're kind of talking about it as well is the whole foundation of how a relationship goes through a process of, just the processes of how relationship falters gets to a place where the honeymoon's over. It all starts with the whole infatuation process, a very externally referenced process. And then it gets to this really difficult thing when the kids are born. And it's the honeymoon is essentially over and now I'm not getting all that external validation that I used to get. And so what happens in that? That's the number one place for divorces in our culture. And being able to understand what's the whole process of what is this relationship doing and how do I actually then build on that really difficult moment in our relationship to create a much more strong, a stronger foundation with which to have a deep, deep intimacy and a really strong foundation for our children to grow up in. And that's kind of the other, so those two big things are the things I've been thinking about. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it, man. And like I said, those are great topics for the speech. I'm looking forward to what happens off that stage. It was a good time. Stefan, do you have any ideas to what angle you're gonna be taking on your presentations here? Other than random coyotes in the speaking hall, that is. I was actually hoping that was it. Yeah, that's it. Just run with that. You can't go wrong. It's a cemetery. Good luck. One of these is rabbit. So the protection and provision aspect of things I think is really important. What do we do? We protect and we provide. And both of those functions of masculinity are being displaced or undermined by politics, by sort of state action, right? Because we're now forced to provide for irresponsible men and women who have children outside of wedlock. And we're forced to provide for ex-wives who may have done wrong or done immorality or immoral things and so on. So we're kind of being forced to provide for everyone. And that diminishes our capacity to provide for our own families, which is kind of emasculating. We wanna protect our children. And there's mass immigration. There are issues where the kids of single mothers have high levels of criminality on average and so on. And so even our own neighborhoods, we are finding it sometimes increasingly difficult to keep our children safe. I mean, to take a really extreme example, you look at the sort of grooming gang scandals, more than scandals like atrocities that went on for 30, 40 plus years in the UK where you had immigrant gangs, gang raping children and so on. And the fathers who went to complain to try and get their children back with themselves arrested for disturbing the peace. And I mean, just monstrous stuff. So our capacity to provide and to protect, I think is being steadily diminished from us because irresponsible people are sort of grabbing onto the state to avoid the consequences of their own bad decisions. And I think this has a lot to do with the undermining of masculine confidence and happiness with increased suicidality. And the suicidality is, I mean, obviously overt suicide, it is inevitable bad things like, you know, you're getting addicted to opiates and so on. Like sooner or later, you're probably gonna be like neck back on a marble slab. And then there's just kind of not living, which is going on, I think for a lot of men, you know, the sort of porn video games, never getting out there and seizing your part of the great hunt of mankind. And so I would really like to explore what is going on, particularly with white masculinity, but masculinity as a whole in the West. And I think it's a huge, huge issue because, I mean, each individual, you can't just sit there and say, well, I'm gonna go fix the pilot, fix the immigration system. I'm gonna make sure there are no grooming gangs and I'm gonna, you know, change the family court system and I'm gonna change welfare to private charities so that it's more responsibly applied. You can't do any of that, but if you, you know, the enemy you can see is the enemy you can fight. The enemy you can't see is the enemy who will win. And so what I wanna do, I think that there's a lot of invisible undertows that are undermining masculinity, but we can't really see it. So I guess I wanna be the blinding white talcum powder that goes over the invisible guy so you can kind of see the shape of it. Because I think once men understand why they're feeling useless and unhappy and rejected and undermined, well, that's a battle you can fight, but the enemy you can't see. The airborne enemy, so to speak, is the one that'll take you down. So I really would like to give men a clearer understanding of all of the cultural and economic and political forces that are serving to, we can undermine their sense of confidence and happiness in being men. And this is all the way from just, you know, those inevitably boring commercials where the guy's just kinda dumb and the woman's always so smart or the Disney films where the kids are always smart and the guy's always like the dad is kind of a fumbling idiot who doesn't know how to work the PS4 or whatever. And I think once men can see that, I think it really can go around saving lives, you know, because then men can say, okay, so this I've identified why I'm unhappy and how I can't fix it as an individual, but I can start sharing this knowledge so that we are at least facing an enemy that we can see. I think it's important for people to realize too, to this point, that when these many different perspectives are shared, it's like they're being an object and many different lights are shown upon it, you know, and you get a greater picture of what's going on because you don't know what you don't know. But when you listen to a bunch of men speak about a certain subject, like, wow, I learned a few things I didn't know and now I know more. And because I know more, it can act better because I've got more pieces to the puzzle. I used to think it was a dog and now it's a bridge, you know, and I put it together and go and now it's this, you know, you get to see what the actual image is. So that's incredibly important to kind of put that, like you said, the taco powder and the invisible man, you didn't see it until you did. Once you do, what do you do with that knowledge? And I'm really looking forward to hearing, you know, after the event what the men do do with their knowledge. So Tanner, what's your approach going to be the Chief Patriarch, you know, you're running with this one, you've got the torch brother. Yeah, so I actually, I love hearing Stefan what you've got planned because I think what I'm kind of kicking around is even the what you do after you find out who the enemy is and that kind of stuff because when I look back at my own life growing up and I've got a wonderful father and he's a man that I respect and I love him. And he also, when I think back on how I was growing up and my dad and my youth leaders and all these other men in my life, and there weren't a lot, you know, I didn't, like a lot of kids in public school, all your teachers are women and all this kind of, I didn't have very many aspirational men in my life. I didn't have guys that when I wanted to grow up I wanted to be like them. You know, I remember being in the scouts and all the other leaders, the leaders were fat and grouchy and were more interested in making it home in time for the next football game so they could watch it the next day instead of actually helping us out with our camp outs and this kind of stuff. And so for me, the biggest thing that I'm working on personally and that I can see the most potential in, because I don't like, Stefan, like you said, I can't deal with divorce law. I can't deal with, you know, like I can't change these things but what I can change is am I the kind of person that my son wants to grow up to be like and that my daughters want to grow up to marry somebody like me? Am I an aspirational figure for my family? What does that man look like? How does he act? How does he look? What kind of goals does he accomplish? How does he dress? How does he treat his wife? How does he interact with other men? You know, are his kids the sole reason that he exists because that's not very exciting for a kid to think that my life gets over as soon as I'm a dad, right? And so how do I become the most intentionally aspirational figure I can be so that I can be somebody that my children want to become? And then what are the core principles of that that other men can build off of because each of you, your own aspirational version that your kids should want to be like or want to be with is very different than mine but that can be boiled down to a few key and core principles and so what are those principles? And so that's what I'm gonna try and tackle and figure out over the next year is, can I boil that into something that I can build on myself and then share with everybody else while I'm there? Yeah, that's an important thing too. I mean, you're showing, you know, what, what do you want to become? Cause everybody thinks, you know, they get this image of your, your everything you want to be and they don't understand like we're also all on our journey. Oh, I'm not, I haven't arrived yet. Whoa. That's, that's it. I get that. I think a lot of people though, they're like, oh, Tanner Guzzi. You know, your name means something. There are a lot of people who look to you and you're like, oh, you're the guy, you're at your final form. He's like, no. I hope in five years I'm embarrassed of who I am today. No, and it's, it's an odd coincidence. I'm actually supposed to peak at 931 tonight. Yeah, there we go. I'm gone. I'm gone. It's all downhill from here. Hold on, right there. That's this man. That's four. That was my peak. And you know, I wasn't even talking when I was peaking. We missed it. That's a missed opportunity. All right. So we're going to start wrapping this one up. I will share that. I've gone a lot on the giving presence to your children and being involved. I've tried to share through my actions. I've tried to share through fancy quotes. I've tried to share, you know, through images and these things, but I've never given a speech on what does giving presence really mean to me? And how do I think you could do the same and replicate it in your own form and fashion and make it your own way? So my speech this year will be on what is presence? Awesome. You know, I'm probably going to find some alliteration, but it's going to be something involving the presence of an individual. Because as fathers, you know, we can have the greatest presence in our child's life and we can be the one that accelerates them to greater growth. Not that we're like, oh, this is our God, but rather this is our motivation. And that's who we're looking to surpass. That was a great man. And that man wants me to be better than him. So we set our children up for a greater trajectory. And now the page is ready. You know, the 21 convention patriarchs is ready for people to start joining. It is ready to bring the fathers together. And we're at the point now where you can launch it. We can get the tickets sold. People can lock in their spot. It's going to be the cheapest it can possibly be throughout the entire time. So you can get your early bird discount. If you look at the banner, my goodness, look at the men on the top of that. Look at those beards. I don't even know what we were saying, but both of us look really pissed. But you know what? No kidding, man. There's a time to be serious. And every time Tanner and I take the stage, I will say for as jovial and as comical as we can be offstage, we get pretty serious up there because the message is serious. Now it's 999 and it's taking place from 30th of April to the 3rd of May. It's one of the buy one, get one. So you can buy one, bring a friend. The two of you split the cost. So it's half the price. So the $1,000 becomes 500. At 22Con it's taking place at the same time, the greatest mansplaining event of the century. Not just a year. So you can bring your wife. You look at all the men on there. You look at the page. You've got an entire group of men looking to help you help yourself. If you want to start a family, if you have a family you want to improve, these men have done things. These men are living the life and they're not telling you, hey, here's the manual, but rather here's how I did it. And each of these men have incredible messages but they're all unique. You're not gonna see a clone up there saying, hey, do a, hey, do a, hey, do a. Some of us say, hey, do one, two, three. Some of us say GML, you know? It's always a different message that's coming out. There's no replication. We have first-timers. Stefan is his first time. We got Phil Foster right there. It's his first time up. Brian Nicler, you know, these men, Mike Cernovich. Does he know what Revoi on there? No, I think Noah is speaking, yeah. I just saw him. Yeah, they're Revoi. Yeah, Noah's on there. Who's awesome. I had a red man group with him. First time we met was live and it was incredible, the ideas and his perspective on life. But these men come together. We've got Steve the Dean, Texas Dom. Thanos. Ken, you're up. It's ridiculous to go through this lineup and everybody's heard the names. But when you sit and you have a dinner with them and you sit and you get to hang up by the pool or you get to hang out outside and just talk about your individual story, it changes everything. We have the dinners. We have the workshops. We have these one-on-one moments. I'm gonna be hitting Anthony up. I might be doing a workshop, my first one. I've not done one up to this point. I've always hopped around and hung out with the guys during that time. But there's a few topics I think I could give some one-on-one access, you know, individual attention to. So it's just the entire event itself is incredible. So when you look at what Anthony's created, you look at the dream, you know, what are you now? The president of the Manusphere? El Presidente of the Manusphere? You look at what it is he's built. It's not just to get men together to talk about, oh, how do I lay some game? It's not just, oh, how do I, how do I, you know, take care of my appearance? How do I get strong? How do you lead a family? The second patriarch's edition of the 21 conventions happening and think about a topic. Like how do I lead a family? What a monumental obstacle to take on. What a challenge to present to others. What a resource that's being created for men who are not being represented in the grand scheme of social status or social, you know, any attention coming from any media outlet anywhere. Nobody cares about fathers. Nobody wants to talk about them. They're the bumbling idiots on these sitcoms. They're the fools that are the butt of every joke. Hey, go to mom because dad's an idiot. 21 convention is changing that. It's infecting lives. It's not just, you know, spreading a message. It's infecting lives. Tickets are on sale now. Go to the 21convention.org slash patriarch. Get your ticket signed up now. It's the early bird discount. You'll see us all there. Guys, I'm pumped up. Like I'm really looking forward to it. It's one of the ones where, you know, my people come together. The men who are looking to lead families. There's groups out there saying, well, I don't want kids to the end of the day. I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna be a lonely old man. I'm gonna do my thing. Okay, do your thing. Or for those who do want a family, those who do want to improve their family or those who just want to meet up with other like-minded men and build their tribe, this is where you do it. Thank you for tuning in to this red man group. You know, we have, I had a solid panel. Guys, I appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on tonight. What a blast. My pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you. I appreciate all of your time. Everybody, thank you for tuning in. Have a good night. Night, guys. Good night.