 Aloha. I'm Marsha Joyner and we are navigating the journey. Navigating the journey is dedicated to exploring the options and choices for the end of life care and to assist people to talk about their wishes. It's time to transform our culture so we shift from not talking about dying to talking about it. It's time to share the way we want to live at the end of our lives and it's time to communicate about the kind of care we want and don't want for ourselves. We believe that the place for this to begin is not in the intensive care unit. Together we can explore the various paths to life's ending. Together we make these difficult conversations easier. Together we make sure that our own wishes and those of our loved ones are expressed and respected. So if you're ready we ask, navigate the journey. For those of you that have been with us you know we have invited members of various religions and traditions to talk about the end of life customs in their culture. Today's guest is a friend who I've been looking forward to having on the show since we began the series. In fact many many people have asked when are you going to have a Hawaiian as a guest. Therefore today we have Ramsey Tom and he is, everybody knows Ramsey. He's an inspiring speaker, teacher, writer, and does tachi on the beach in Waimanalo. Yeah it's actually Hawaiian Lua. Okay and he is just he is a wonderful person and steeped in the Hawaiian culture and so what better to talk about the Hawaiian culture than Ramsey. Thank you so much, thank you for having me. Now I watched you any number of times. Tell us about aloha. You know that's it's it's so big it's kind of like asking somebody about God. As big as you say it's it's always bigger right. So aloha is like that but fundamentally aloha is really a condition of being. It's a spirit and it is about being connected, being a part of the whole and the whole what the whole spirit the entity. We say it's a reciprocity agreement of giving and receiving. It's acknowledging that your breath is my breath. We share that breath and we do so in union and so anytime you say aloha it's not just a greeting of hello or goodbye but it's a commitment. It's a commitment to say that in the time that we're spending together your air is my air. My space is your space and we honor that space and we care for that and we care for that breath through time. You know that ha that life-giving breath that joins us to one another and to all things. This is aloha. It's more than just the names of a building or unfortunately what we've done to that very spiritual concept. Yes and it's a way of being. It is a way of being and you know when you do a word search aloha has more hits than any other word. Oh yeah. People really like aloha whether they know what it is or not. Yeah they really like it. Yeah well and I think you've heard me talk about it before but we know that in our more LL or our old LL more LL the story but the whole LL the language it's steeped in energy spiritual energy and that spiritual energy people pick up on especially when you say it properly and so it's very difficult because it has to come out of your mouth and it's being vocalized on that ha the breath. So if you've thought about it and you want to express it you've thought about it you felt it and now you're expressing it. As Antipalai would say anything that comes from your lips between your teeth on the life-giving breath of ha has been manifested it'll be out there so be careful of what you think. So as you would say the seeds of thought are watered by the emotion of the of heart and your expressions that utterance that comes from your mouth is giving that that life. So I think that when people really connect to aloha those that are in tune they feel that you know they may not understand it but they feel it. Do you ever really understand most of what we feel what we take in we don't understand we spend the day with nature and we know it feels good but we don't really understand. Yeah you know there's there's that whole thing of knowledge and understanding but in the absence of wisdom how do you practice it how do you share with others. You're a kupuna and that's what kupuna is supposed to do is share wisdom. I appreciate it. Like most things I think as you do as we live they say from the day we're born we're aging as we age and as we live and we express I think we learn more about it in fact I was asked recently can you teach aloha and I was kind of mindful about the response I think you can learn it definitely we can learn it but we learn it by doing I was going to say it's not a cognitive thing which we tend to want to do by creating boxes shake their hands say hi smile all of the mechanical things but you could repeat those mechanical things in different settings and not have the same experience because in many ways aloha is actually drawing upon the experiences within that are triggered by the things around us and the relationships so someone else could be sitting here and we won't have that same feeling regardless of the words I use or the behaviors or actions that I demonstrate because the chemistry that that spirit wasn't there. Now I want to get to the end of life however before we get there you did a piece at Unity Church about diversity yes I thought that was marvelous can you do it in 25 words or less no I'm just kidding but you did your explanation of diversity because and it goes to the spirit of our program that we have asked all of these different traditions and cultures to share with us and it it is quote diverse in the ground we cover but your definition of diversity was magnificent so well I appreciate that and again I think that's a reflection of aloha and of who we are as Hawaii my reflection was that most times I hear things about diversity there's haka ka problems and they're using diversity they being whoever the company organization might be as a way of it's it's like an excuse but really the the the tension is unity they're looking to find a way to coalesce to bring people together so rather than looking at the problem as as is expressed through diversity I chose to look at the preferred condition which is look I the unification and working together as a whole and look I he really isn't so much about unity as much as it is solidarity working together though we may have differences and honoring those differences as much as we honor the similarities and in this case I use the reef as an example so the presentation was really based on lessons from the reef lessons in diversity and it acknowledges that if you look at a healthy reef that reef system includes multiple colors of fishes sizes you know corals and all those kinds of things which are not being managed by any one particular person or entity but instead respect exists on the reef and every fish every coral every seaweed every large mammal that lives in and around that reef is acknowledging it and it is the diversity of that reef that gives it its health and really if you think about it with we as the human community if we look at ourself as a reef we aren't really operating in the same way no in many ways but one because we believe all people should be sharks or all people are minnows or what have it is we've categorized ourselves rather than acknowledging the relationships that we have to one another all the colors of the reef and so that's essentially what it was all about is beginning to look at that and recognizing it comes down to respect at the end of the day and knowing that we all have something to contribute to the whole and we have to invite that and so there's some humility and involvement as well you know of Pono Shim when I was working at City Council this is many years ago he was testifying and I'm just sitting there listening I don't remember who he was talking to or anything else about that day but he said to this international group that here in Hawaii we are not diverse we are married and I thought damn that is the best description I have heard yeah it's very true I mean if you think about other cosmopolitan centers you may have multiple groups there but there's Chinatown, Japad Town, Koreatown, there seems to be a very strong delineation between them and us and mind you we do have multiple groups here that's what makes Hawaii but we do marry one another we do my son-in-law is Chinese yeah so as a result of that we have this blend and maybe the word tolerance isn't enough but there's we develop a tolerance and we recognize that the person in the elevator standing behind you could easily be a cousin yeah right so you're mindful about the words you choose and the things you say so because it's very true we do marry one another and as a result you get this blend and as I suggested in that presentation it's not a melting pot like other people think but we're more like beef stew right and everyone still maintains their identities but when we work together and create this blend the Hanai and the Hapa this blending we create a gravy you know and that gravy is the flavor of culture and I believe Hawaii has a longer it cooks the better yeah but again it requires steam it requires heat yeah so as they all say if you don't like being in the kitchen or the heat stay out of the kitchen same thing part of the beef stew is that you need sometimes that pressure so that we can bring out the best in one another so now let's talk about the culture the Hawaiian culture and dealing with the end of life and I'm not talking about accidents and just old age but let's assume you have a brain tumor or a cancer or something and you you know the person is not going to get well how do you deal with that kind of thing in terms of what how the person person is treated I assume they're at home we're not I don't like the idea of hospitals and all that stuff all the wires that bothers me but this is tutu and she has an ailment and she you know she's not going to make it right how do you deal with that and in the Hawaiian culture well I can't begin to tell you how timely this conversation is because we're actually experiencing that in our family as we speak so I would have to say first of all it has a lot to do with faith and I'm saying that as a Hawaiian of modernity because as Hawaiians as people of this place we have and choose multiple religions if you would to express our faith and to connect with that which we believe to be greater than ourselves so depending on which family or which dogma if you would a religion that they should follow I believe that leads and guides them in their faith and so I was born and raised in a faith that believes in something greater than ourselves a place that's greater than we are and that there is that place however we go back to Hawaiian culture prior to the introduction of Christianity and that's debatable now whether it was in 1820 or perhaps earlier right as early as the 1520 okay now while we're debating mm-hmm let's go to come over to a break okay and then we come back and let's talk about the debate on when all of this week sure sure be glad to do it thank you match day is no ordinary day the pitch hallowed ground for players and supporters alike excitement builds game plans are made with responsibility in mind celebrations are underway ready for kickoff MLS clubs and our supporters rise to the challenge we make responsible decisions while we cheer on our heroes and toast their success elevate your match day experience if you never drive is Steven Philip Katz I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I'm the host of shrink wrap Hawaii where I talk to other shrinks did you ever want to get your head shrunk well this is the best place to come to pick one I've been doing this we must have 60 shows with a whole bunch of shrinks that you can look at I'm here on Tuesdays at 3 o'clock every other Tuesday I hope you are too aloha hi and we're back with my dear friend Kumu Ramsey Tom thank you is an absolute delight and you will be I guess we were talking about the end of life and you were telling us about an experience you're having at this moment yeah with it with our own family and over the last several years because of a large Hawaiian family my father had multiple siblings and so time has catching up you know and I think part of the question has to do with what are your beliefs what are your faith what is your faith and we believe that there is something beyond this that we are here and learning and sharing with one another but there is some place beyond that and from the Hawaiian cultural standpoint versus the Christian practices or other practices of other religions that we as Hawaiians have participated in since the overthrow or since the introduction of Western concepts and or global concepts to Hawaii we did have our own practices but as I was mentioning before the break you know there are some suggestions that Christianity either from Spain or Portugal had made its way here as early as the 1520 1526 but missionaries then Protestant missionaries arrived here in 1820 so since then you know many of the practices that we understood understood our practice then were either had gone underground disappeared or put away so it's very difficult for those to go back and say this is what we actually believe because so much of it that the purity of it has been woven into a new lay of spirituality and so it's I can see why people would have difficulty saying this is what we did as Hawaiians but the kupuna the elders that taught me and mentored me we're very clear in their perspectives is that the veil that we call the physical life is just that of veil and that the uhane the spirit transfers from that to another place and so our kupuna are always with us is just recognizing that they're on the other side of the veil now there are questions of how many times to that so other traditions of multiple life experiences but that hasn't been the conversation that we've had within the cultural context that we're talking about but the idea that kupuna are there we use terms that umakua that family relative or guide and so oftentimes we say someone will pass and eventually become umakua that person that entity that spiritual guidance that directs us so if you really believe in something like that and you want to be of service to your community family ohana the aina then the question is how can you be a good umakua how can you be a good kupuna which is planning I had knowing that you will be there for someone else but it's very difficult as you said most people don't want to have that conversation that there's a finality of it and that often instills fear in people and nobody wants to talk about that right and that's why we want to talk about it because it it's it's a sacred moment it's it shouldn't be scary that's right I really believe there's two gifts that if ever offered our ultimate gifts to be at the moment of one's birth and at the moment of one's transition and I've been fortunate to have experienced both and they're they're both magical events because you get to see the continuum of life again I believe and have that faith that there is a continuum that we don't just don't become you know dust in the ground that physically but the spiritual spiritual mind the entity and so I have experienced it and see it in my senses that our kupuna are with us and we just have to ask it's okay is there in getting ready for the transition the days or whatever what do you give them medications do you help help them in any way what what is is there a ceremony is there a process is there rituals that you do prior to well like I said again depending on what practices people are describing today but my cupola I remember my I remember my grandmother talking about her grandfather prior to his transition and that while he was laying there he was having these conversations with unseen entities full on like we're talking here and she asked her grandmother at the time what is Tutu Man doing and he was essentially telling them to leave them alone he's not ready yet to go away I'll be with you shortly but for the time being hella you know go away someplace so at that level of clarity I think to acknowledge that then I think that's when the veil begins to break down and you may be in self-reparation for families however again there are different ceremonies there are different concepts in Ho'oponopono for instance that is the one practice that I believe that we've held on to or maintained that is critical I think at those times and of course most people in this understand Ho'oponopono as forgiveness a forgiveness process or mediation process but Ho'oponopono is about making right so if a person is of clear mind knowing that they are about to transition I have received calls from individuals like this saying I would like to Ho'oponopono because I would like to clear my heart and my mind as I prepare to transition as well as to ask forgiveness from others and to extend forgiveness to those perhaps that I have not so I think for me and at least the Ho'oponopono that have mentored me that is one of the very more important practices that has carried forward with us because we die daily yes when we do the physical death that's another thing but I think we die daily when we harm others others do harm to us and our spirit dies to a certain degree and it is that practice of Ho'oponopono that kind of gives us back our life now this is very different from the commercial stuff that's going on right so we're going to that deeper spiritual recognition that I need to let go I need to release and the me to let that go to oki to cut into puny to close these are the concepts and I believe that is one of the important practices there's also acknowledgement that spirit will leave and you know find its way to the door we call that the Lena there are different places here on each island actually where the spirit the walk the point of and the point is one of them yeah there's another one in kava there's several places where the o'honey would go and to lele to jump into the next next world yeah this is so wonderful my goodness do you what about medications as you enter do they have any Hawaiian medications or I know I had cancer and my friend gave me that noni which was some awful stuff but it did work so yeah well I was fortunate to be mentored by some of the La'olapau from Hawaii Island Kohala in particular in Honoka and interesting enough the contemporary ailments and illnesses we did not have right so they did not have you know responses for it and in this case this kupuna actually learned in the dream from his own daughter who suffered an illness and passed in transition and she came back to him in the dream and said papa here's the answer and gave him the formula of la'ol to heal cancer and so it's a series of plants that were put together by him and put into a concoction he shared that with and it has actually healed people of cancer preventing their deaths in most cases it always worked but again it always comes to the individual your degree of faith your practice you know your own discipline and as Uncle Tommy would say it's really up to the guy upstairs if this works or not right so there are there are different herbs depending on the this ease or the ailment that can ease and perhaps you provide comfort to that process if not actually provide for healing right so there's a difference between healing and and comfort so well if we're just going to make the person comfortable so that the passing is not in pain and not all of that stuff how about that how do you well you know I I think the one that most people use now well they're doing it for entertainment but it's also for ceremony but Ava root has a way of reducing the anxiety in fact it was used before decisions such as war right it was important that the chiefs sat in did Alba because it does bring that down and it's not a hallucinogen but it does calm and bring you know some kind of Malie makes it a little smoother and calm and I think that's one of the ones that would be I think a prescription if you would but that's the one I would probably turn to I just thinking about how to make it as calming and as peaceful as not to think that this is going to cure you because we pass that stage but to make these last moments peaceful and wonderful rather than in turmoil and pain and morphine and what kind of stuff so that's what I was where I'm going with that one yeah I mean I don't know that we had those kinds of I guess remedies that equal the pharmaceutical things that we have now which obviously have so many side effects but these natural principles again coupled with ceremony because it's so much about how the spirit is responding now to the point you made earlier in terms of whether you are of mind presence right that has a lot to do with it and so someone who is not physically present or mentally present may experience different different things depending on what you give them but I think for the most part I'm thinking of people that are that know this that what they have they've already done all the surgery and then all the stuff and this is it this is not going anywhere and we don't want to spend money and $10,000 a day in the hospital that we are at home we want to be with our family want our loved ones with us I don't what is that process I guess is what I'm asking yeah I don't I don't know I can't be definitive because it's been so long and very few people are practicing those concepts in fact we subscribe more to the contemporary practices today I think the planning however is knowing that one as Kapuna as spirit if you subscribe to that at all you want to leave this place better than you found it yes right and hopefully you'll be of mind and spirit to guide those who call upon you right so really about preparing in that way as far as the physical transition again it'll vary from different you know ailments or different people and different traditions on one island it might be one plant on another island is another I think this is the part that I our Kupuna were very clear about at least the ones that I learned from is that if you are from a particular place and you leave that place your dis ease oftentimes is a reflection of your disconnection ah because you are no longer your DNA because you're no longer eating of the food of that place therefore you add your disconnected from your ancestors from their DNA etc because hey how about yeah I am that place so oftentimes what is going to heal you is best if you're from Ka'u to eat of Ka'u and eat from Kabu but I think that's only as food they are telling me that we have run out of time I am too we're just getting started you will come back I'll be glad to come back if I'm invited well consider this an invitation well thank you so much thank you this has been a real pleasure and so when it comes time I'm gonna call you when it comes time for me to pass because this is that's the way I want to go thank you so much I guess it's time I guess it's time I guess that's somebody telling me to get off there