 Hello everyone. Welcome. Can you believe it's our second lecture? A couple things. I want to ask you to please turn off your cell phones. Because we've had a couple of texts that we're hearing pinging and just a little disruptive. So that would be awesome. Of course mine isn't turned off. Oops. Secondly, we decided at our board meeting this past week that we would do a sort of impromptu walk. And we're going to walk down at Meach Cove in Shelburne, which is a beautiful walk. You're going to get an email about this sometime over the weekend. And you're more than welcome to come and bring friends. It's going to be scheduled for Tuesday, September 26 at 11 o'clock. And if it rains, which of course it will, the rain date is the next day at 11 o'clock. And there are directions on where to park. You don't have to respond, although at the bottom of the email is Betty Naven's name. I don't know where Betty is, but if you have any questions, she's in the back. Okay, there are a few flyers on the table. If anyone has any questions after the lecture, please feel free to ask her. We put her email, her phone number, and you don't have to let her know. We would love to have you show up. So now I would like to introduce, for those of you who've been members for a while, this is an old-time favorite, and I just saw that you're Professor Emeritus. Congratulations! Yay! Because when he filled out the form, he was called recently retired. And I didn't know, I didn't ask you, because I thought, it's not PC. So anyway, Larry Hamberlin. He retired this summer from Middlebury College where he taught music history for 18 years and continues to give popular pre-concert talks for the college's performing art series. He has also taught at Harvard, Tufts, and Williams. In addition to his scholarly publications, Larry has written the textbooks for W.W. Norton, Introduction to America's Music with Richard Crawford, and a forthcoming music appreciation text called The Skillful Listener. An active performer, he has conducted and composed music for community choirs, bands, and orchestras throughout Vermont. Larry lives in Bristol with his wife, flutist, and teacher, Francine Hamberlin. Please give a warm welcome to Larry Hamberlin. Can you hear me now? Oh, you can hear me now. Wonderful. Thank you. It's so nice to be back here. I was last year, I guess in 2019, and then something came along in 2020 that sort of made us stop doing this for a while. You may recall what that was. I do too. And this is my first time back since then, and it is wonderful to be here. It's a great, great, great pleasure to be with you all here in the room. And those of you who are on our Zoom webinar, I'm very happy to have you with us today. We've all learned how to do things in a hybrid fashion, some of us in person, some of us remote. It's wonderful. I love it. And oddly enough, this topic is kind of timely for the time period that we're in right now. What is so great about Beethoven's fifth? Everybody knows that it's a great piece, and everybody knows how it starts. Bum, bum, bum, bum. Everybody knows that. But what comes after those four notes? That's what I want to explore today. And what makes what comes after so great? So let's just look a little bit at Beethoven at this time in his life, born in 1770. He wrote this symphony over a period of about four or five years when he was in his mid-thirties. This is at a time in his life where he is aware that he's losing his hearing. He hasn't yet come public with that information. That will be happening soon enough. He'll let the world know. But at this point, he's still dealing with it as a personal struggle. There's a portrait of him that was painted right about this time. I like to think of a young man in his early to mid-thirties who's going to be telling us what he has to tell us in this piece. What does he have to say? Well, first of all, he's going to build on the models of his great predecessors, Haydn and Mozart in the generation before him, his two musical idols. He met Mozart when he was a teenager. He studied with Haydn when he was in his twenties. He inherits from him this idea of the symphony as this large-scale piece for orchestra with four movements. What's a movement? A movement is a standalone piece of music. Back in the LP days, that was a track on the LP. CDs had that too. Streaming services had that now. If you go to iTunes to download Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, you'll tell you that it's four songs. That's what a movement is. What's this four-song structure that Beethoven's predecessors do? You start fast and loud and energetic. Then you bring it down and relax and do something slow and calming. Then for the third movement, you do something that is either dance-like, and the big dance hit of the 18th century, the big dance craze was the minuet. You'd have something that's in that dance rhythm of the minuet. Haydn had this idea, speed it up so fast that you can't really dance to it anymore, but it gets kind of funny when you do that. He called that a scherzo, which is just the Italian word for joke. The idea is that it's either dancey or funny or both. It's sort of the light moment of comic relief. In the fourth movement, you get it all fast and energetic again and finish up with a big bang. That's the model that Beethoven inherits. He doesn't really mess with that. He's going to keep it, especially the Fifth Symphony. It's going to have four movements just like this. Now, the genius of Haydn and Mozart was they realized that instrumental music can tell a story. Without words, without characters, we feel that there's a story going on. The music takes us on a journey. And for Haydn and Mozart, each of these movements is a story with a beginning, a middle and an end. So that in a way, listening to a symphony by those earlier composers is sort of like having a book of short stories. Each story is satisfying in itself. And if it's a good collection, they all sort of feel like they fit together somehow. That's a good short story. But you don't have to read all the stories in the book. You can just listen to one and it stands on its own and it's perfectly fine. Beethoven's innovation is he said, I don't want a book of short stories. I want a novel. What's going to make this be a novel with four chapters? And that's what he does in some of the symphonies. Not all of the symphonies, some more, some less, none more than the fifth symphony. The fifth symphony is the most novelistic of Beethoven's symphonies. And that, well, what's the difference between a novel and a book of short stories? When you get to the end of chapter one in a novel, it doesn't feel very satisfying. It's like the story's not over. It doesn't wrap up. You've got to go on to the next chapter to see what happens next in the story. The only story that's going to have the satisfying ending, the only chapter in the novel that will have the satisfying ending, is the last one. And then it needs to give you a big satisfaction, a big conclusion. So Beethoven says, I need to come up with a way that the earlier movements are all going to feel a little bit not quite finished, not quite satisfied. You've got to go on to the next one to get the rest of the story. Of course, the trick is to do that without simply writing music. It's bad. That would be one way to do it. But no, he says, I'm going to do it and do it in a great way. That's what's going to make it a novel. So what story does this novel tell? We can kind of sum it up with an old Latin motto per asper ad astra, through hardship to the stars. If you know your Latin or if you're kind of states of the US buff, you might recognize this as the state motto of Kansas. Or if you're a Star Trek fan, any Star Trek fans in here, you might recognize this as the motto of the Starfleet, which the Enterprise is, of course, the famous ship. Through struggle or through hardship to the stars, a story about obstacles, hardships, struggling to overcome those obstacles, and then overcoming them, and that sense of accomplishment and victory that comes through meeting your challenges and exceeding them. That's the story Beethoven wants to tell in the Fifth Symphony. Now, how is he going to do that? He's going to do it using devices that novelists use all the time. One thing is that you use foreshadowing. The early chapters are going to hint at things that come later. So that when they come, you go, oh, yes, that's the perfect thing that had to happen. But then you also have flashbacks or recollections, places in the later chapters where you refer back to things that happened earlier. You go, oh, yes, I see how it all fits together as one big story. Beethoven's going to do that through purely musical means. So what are some of those musical means? He's going to move us from darkness to light, from struggle to victory, and then simply he's going to do that with two closely related keys, C minor and C major. Minor is that darker mode, sadder sounding. Major is a happier sounding mode, a lighter sounding mode. So music that's going to be very much in C minor at the beginning, very much in C major at the end, it's going to give us a sense that we move from darkness to light. But not just that, Beethoven's going to hint at C major along the way. That's the foreshadowing, as if we're going to get over our problems right in the first movement. But it's not quite going to work. And then the second movement, again, a little bit of C major as if we've got to the end, but it doesn't work, it falls apart. Same thing, a third movement. Finally in the fourth movement, C major is absolutely where we are. And by the very end of the symphony, there's just no question we have overcome our struggles. So that back and forth. So now I need to talk a little bit about how first movements work. Back with Haydn and Mozart, and then Beethoven is inheriting this. I said that with those earlier composers, each movement is kind of a whole story in itself. Let's look at how the story of the first movement of the symphony works. In Beethoven's fifth, this is also the way the last movement works. If we can get through this rather technical part, we'll be able to hear what's going on in the first movement and the fourth movement of the symphony. Basically three parts to the structure. An exposition, a development, and a recapitulation. Now those terms are very similar to terms that are used by storytellers in developing a story. If you ever pick up a book on how to write a play, or how to write a screenplay, movie writers, television writers, they use this framework. An exposition, a development, and then they don't call it a recapitulation, they'll call it the resolution, or the denouement, something. But the idea that the exposition is where you introduce your characters, and you put them in a situation, and that situation has a problem. That's the exposition. The development is where you try to solve the characters, try to solve the problem, but for a while they're only making things worse, right? Things get more complicated. But then they solve the problem, we get that resolution. That will be our recapitulation. So those three big parts we're listening for. Let me go into a little more detail. I won't go into too much, but a little more detail. So what's in that exposition? Two main characters. We call it the first theme and the second theme. So these are melodic ideas, musical ideas. They're different. So with symphony the first one is, those famous four notes. But think about this. What is the characteristic of that opening music? It keeps stopping and starting, stopping and starting. Bum bum bum bum, it stops. Bum bum bum bum bum, it stops again. Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum, then it stops, and then it tries to go again. It can't get started. It doesn't flow. That character has problems. The second theme is sweeter. It's in a major key. Not C major yet, we're going to say that. But it's in a major key, so it's going to be brighter. It's a more lyrical melody. It's a very different character. And then the closing theme is less important. That's just some music that sort of tells us that we're at the end of the first big section. And then if we want to, we can do all of that twice. And Beethoven will in the first movement. The development, then, is where we're going to let things get complicated. All the little bits and pieces of our two characters come back again. But now, harmonically, it's very unstable. The harmony is dissonant and the keys wander around and we can't really tell quite where we are. And that's the complicated part of the story. But then towards the end, things sort of flatten out and we feel like, oh, things are kind of resolving. And boom, we're in the third part, the recapitulation, where everything that happened in the exposition happens again. This is where music's a little different from a play or a movie. It all happens again, but now the problem we had at the beginning, they were in two different keys, gets ironed out. It's all in the same key. So it's like a resolution in the harmony. Now, can you hear that consciously? Probably not, but subliminally, at least, you'll feel that there's sort of a resolution in that recapitulation that wasn't there in the exposition. So what are particular specific wrinkles? Oh, and then at the end, you have this option, you can have a coda. That's like an epilogue. You don't need to have an epilogue, but oftentimes you do. You could just stop right there at this closing thing. What does Beethoven do that are some particular wrinkles in this? Well, I mentioned that stopping and starting is the first thing. That's really odd. The really odd thing is that the first four notes of the piece, we hear in every part of the movement. It never goes away. Traditionally, when you go to the second theme, it's like it's somebody else who's going to stop talking about that first guy for a while. We'll talk about the second person. Beethoven doesn't stop doing it. He gives us this lyrical melody in the background, soft in the background. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. It never goes away. This closing theme is just that four note idea over and over and over. We're in a new key, but bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. He hammers away at it. So that's what's odd about his exposition. What's odd about his development? He's supposed to build tension, build excitement. This one does the opposite. It starts very exciting, but then it kind of stalls out. It loses energy. It loses its sense of direction. It stalls out. It fails. So it's some musical depiction of failure because we're a long way from having these problems solved. This is just the beginning of the novel. Then it sort of rallies up enough energy to get into the recapitulation. And that happens. That's fine. Then the recapitulation, I said, everything needs to be in the same key. So he starts in C minor, right where he started. When he gets to the second theme, he goes to C major. Hey, we're in C major. That's going to be the victory key at the end of the symphony. And he gets to the end through his closing theme. He gets to this place where you could stop and everything's just like bright and sunny C major. It's like if it stopped right there, that'd be the end of the story. It's just great. But no, he gives us a code. What does a code do? It throws us right back into all of that mess of the development. And that's where it stops. That's not very satisfying, but it's not supposed to be. It's just where we're going to go. So let's just listen to that first movement together. Let's watch a performance of it. I want to spend most of this time together actually just listening to parts of the symphony together. That's the most talking I'm going to do through the whole presentation. Let's watch a performance of the symphony conducted by Gustavo Dudamel. He's currently the conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. He's slated to be the next conductor of the New York Philharmonic. Yeah, darn good conductor. Here he's Venezuelan. Here he is back in his home country conducting a very fine Venezuelan orchestra, the Simone Boulevard Orchestra. Really fabulous Latin American musicians performing this symphony number one. I've got our little chart at the bottom. I'll point it where we are along the way as we go. I'll try not to talk. We'll just let the music do the speaking. That's really hard for me, but I'm going to try my best. That's a perfectly good ending right there. Bop, bop, bop, bop. That was the end of the recapitulation. Could have stopped right there. We've been perfectly satisfying. That's not what he does. What does he do? Let's get over there. He doesn't seem to code. He's got darkened story. He had the good sense to stop right here. It would have been a very satisfying story about darkness to light. There's some weird stuff in the middle, but it would have been okay. But he puts this coda on the end and throws everything back into disarray. For a moment there, we seem to be right back at the beginning of the whole thing all over again. We've accomplished nothing. Now this chart is not proportionally correct for this particular piece. If the proportions were right, we would have almost exactly equal proportions. Exposition, development, recapitulation, coda. This coda is every bit as big and long as all the other ones. This little optional epilogue part? You might have thought that the piece was over. He's like, no, no, no. We've got a whole other big part of the story to tell. That part is not happy. It's not over. So what he's saying is that this is not a satisfying way to end the story because it's only chapter one. We've got to turn the page and see how chapter two goes. Well, since we know a little bit about how sympathy is working, we know that this is going to be a more relaxing chapter. It's going to bring us down a little bit to a little more relaxation. And he will. He'll take us down to a major key. It's a little lower, more relaxed than we've been in. And he's going to write this as a double theme in variations. Now what the heck is that? A simple, single theme in variations is simply you have a tune that you play nice and simply. And then you play it again, but a little bit fancier. And then you play it again fancier. Still, you add extra notes and stuff. And then fancier, and fancier, and fancier. And that's called a theme in variations. Double theme in variations. You have two themes. We'll call them A and B. A plain, B plain. Then you get a fancy A, a fancy B, a fancier A, a fancier B, et cetera. That's Haydn loved to do this. And Beethoven's just copying what he learned from Haydn, which is great. The A melody, perfectly normal, what you'd expect in a slow movement. This beautiful, lyrical melody that's all relaxed. The B theme starts the same way. Now it's not going to be cellos. It's going to be clarinets and bassoons. It's going to start nice and calm. But then they don't get very far. Everything is a little uncertain for a moment. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, boom, trumpets and timpani come in really loud. Trumpets and drums, it sounds very military. Like this army comes marching in really loud in C major, by the way, which in this context is a really distant wrong key to go to. But it's foreshadowing the end of the symphony. But it's like these musicians from the end of the symphony have come in at the wrong place. It's not time for them to be there. So what happens? They just kind of bang it out. So this marching army that comes in just kind of fades away. Darn. And what happens? We go back to the A theme and try it again. But now with a variation. A theme into the B theme, the trumpets come marching in, and then they fade away. He tries this three times. And then he's near the end of the whole movement. So the A theme will come back one more time. Those trumpets aren't going to come back. Then the A theme comes in the weirdest way of all. Instead of being a beautiful lyrical melody in the cellos, it's going to be played by the high woodwinds, the flutes and the oboes. And they're going to play it very... And the bassoons are in there too, all the woodwinds. And they're going to play it staccato, very short notes. So what was really lyrical and flowing is going to become all kind of chopped up and staccato, kind of itchy, scratchy, dry. Okay, I don't want to listen to the entire movement because I want us to get everything in today. But I want to listen to that A and B theme at the beginning. Here's a beautiful cello melody. Clarinet starts off with something sweet, but then the trumpets come marching in, only to fade out. And then I'm going to, if I can, jump overhead and listen to that last variation where the woodwinds get all ghostly or spooky. That's the way I think of it. So let's hear the beginning of this. Let's take it from the top, go back to the beginning. A little fancier this time. We're in that first variation. Now I'll pause. Notice, by the way, I'm sure you've noticed if there's a little lag between what we're seeing and what we're hearing, they're not matching up perfectly. I don't know why that's happening, but it's happening. We can live with it. Let's go to towards the end where that last bit comes out. Let's see. That opening melody is going to come back again. But now it's a little dry woodwinds. Let's see. I think we're picking it up from the end of the last time that the Army comes through. The Army is just left. And we'll go back to the beginning one more time if we can find our way back. I think of these as the ghostly woodwinds. There's something a little spooky about the way they play. What are they doing in this piece? They're foreshadowing. That sound is going to come back a couple more times in this symphony, and it'll make a little more sense each time it does. It'll be very confusing, and then it'll start to kind of fit together. So Beethoven is foreshadowing this. Just like those trumpets coming in are foreshadowing the victory that we're ultimately going to get at. These woodwinds are hinting at what's going to be the last challenge. That's not in this movement. What about the third movement? The third movement is that light movement, either a minuet or a scared so. Here it's a scared so because it's too fast to dance to. But here's the problem. A scared so means joke. It's funny. And this one is not funny. This is a very serious scared so. Why? Because we're still in the struggle part. We're working our way towards the stars, but we're not there yet. So this is going to be a more serious scared so. It starts very quiet and mysterious, way down in the low strings, cellos and basses, start very mysterious, and then the French horns come in strong with the melody. And what's that melody going to be? Ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum. And what's that rhythm? Ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum, ba-ba-ba-bum. By the way, you may have noticed that that's the rhythm that the trumpets were playing. When they came in the wrong place in the slow movement, they were still that three short notes in a long one. Super slow because it was a slow movement. Here we're getting it closer to the speed we had at first. French horns doing it. So the overall structure of this movement, Beethoven again is being rather traditional, just what he inherited from Haydn and Mozart, a three-part, or ternary form, a-b-a. All that means is that you do one thing and then you do something else. Then you go back and do the first thing again. That's all it is. A-b-a. Nice, simple, easy to hear because this is supposed to be the lightest part of the symphony. Ha-ha-ha. It's not going to be, and we'll find out why. Let's listen to just the beginning of this movement up through where those French horns come in with our four-note idea. And then I'm going to skip over to just the end of the B section and how it goes back into the return to the opening music. And we'll hear how it opens. Can't do that right yet because after the music comes back, it's supposed to stop, right? The traditional symphony, each movement is like its own separate story. It needs to have an ending. This one doesn't. This movement doesn't end. What it does is it falls in a hole in the ground and we have to go through a tunnel to get out again. We go through it, and this is honest to tell you the truth. This is the way it sounds to me. When we get to this moment in the symphony, I feel like I'm in a tunnel underground trying to find my way through the dark. We come out and up again into the light of the fourth movement, the finale, into the bright light of C major and victory and achievement. So we have the old saying, it's the darkest before the dawn. That's literally true in this symphony. It gets very, very dark and then we have the bright light of the finale. So let's talk a little bit about the finale since we're going to have to listen to the third movement go directly into that. It's going to be that same sonata form again just like the first movement. Exposition, development, recapitulation. His first theme is going to be this sort of triumphant, joyous march, which is appropriate now because we've really gotten there for real this time. The second theme will be this very celebratory music where we hear our four note motive from the very beginning of the symphony this time really fast. Da-da-da-dum, da-da-da-dum, da-da-da-dum, da-da-da-dum, da-da-da-dum, da-da-da-dum. So what we had, then we got it really slow, now we're getting it really fast because it's joyous and happy. We'll get a development section. We get a recapitulation that will lead us right back into the opening exposition again and we get a nice normal finale. At least we hope it will be. Let's see if it will be. Third movement going directly into the fourth movement. So I'll give just a little bit of the beginning of this movement then we'll skip ahead here how that opening comes back. The end of the B section then we'll hear that music come back. We're going to go back to the beginning of the movement. Do you remember how it started? Listen it got all staccato and short. It's kind of dried out again. Just like we had that dried out moment in the second movement. Here it's coming back again, drying up closer to the French horns. They turn into woodwinds, ghostly woodwinds, dried out woodwinds. So the first part came back but it lost its energy. It feels all kind of dried out. It reminds me of autumn leaves all dried out. So instead of being big and loud and lusty they sort of did a very quiet little skeleton dance right to the end of the movement. We got down to the hole. We're coming back into the fourth movement. That's supposed to be over and behind us. It's all about the victory. If this comes back, why does it come back? I don't know. You tell me when we're done. Let's keep on listening. One more time. Pause right there in the interest of time. A little spoiler alert. From here to the end it's C major all the way. It's nothing but sunshine and victory from here to the end and that coded a little optional epilogue. We talked about how long that was in the first movement. This one's even longer. It's the epilogue to the whole novel and it's about we made it. We got through the hard times. The good times are here. Let's celebrate and let's take a victory lap around the track and that's the last movement. So the last movement is all about all our troubles are over. We made it through. We can celebrate now. Except for that one little spot. So what was going on there? Where that little bit of the scherzo came back. The weirdest, creepiest little part of the scherzo came back in the middle of the celebration. A reminder where you came from. Let's celebrate but let's not forget that we've been through some hard times together and they're behind us now. Maybe they're not. Maybe this victory that we've worked so hard to achieve is one that we can't just lie back and relax now and say well we made it we're through all of that we don't need to continue to be vigilant because those problems might come back. Even though we solved the problem that doesn't mean those problems will never come back again. You know Ian Forster the British novelist wrote a novel called Howard's End. There's a chapter in that novel where the characters in the novel go to a concert and they hear Beethoven's fifth symphony and he lets us hear one character's thoughts while she's listening to this music talent. And when she hears those creepy parts, those creepy woodwind parts, she calls those the goblins. And she says in the last movement the goblins are all gone but here they come back again for a moment. And she says that's Beethoven saying that although you got rid of them that doesn't mean that they're never coming back and you have to watch for them. And she said that means that Beethoven is very honest. And if he's honest about that that means you can trust him in the other things he says. And that's what makes the fifth symphony great. Thank you folks. So I had a question for you. Does anybody have a question for me? Yes. Any questions? Anyone from Zoom? This was such fun. Maybe we should just have him play more. You could just listen to the end of the symphony. You want to hear a lot of some nature. Would you rather... any questions? Oh, we do have a question. We'll get a microphone back to you. Presentation. So exciting. The music is so exciting. And I just kind of ask a general question. Beethoven puts such energy into his music. It's just amazing. And the use of the orchestra, it's sections to do that. He builds there. And I'm kind of interested in a few comments about innovations he made over Haydn and Mozart to achieve that effect. How does he do that? Well, you know, Beethoven... When he was a teenager, he idolized Mozart. And his great dream was to go to Vienna instead. He lived in Bonn, Germany. His great dream was to go to Vienna and study with Mozart. And he actually got a chance to do that when he was 16. And we think that he had one lesson with Mozart. And then he got a letter from home that his mother was sick and dying. And he turned around and left. Went back home. Had to take care of his family for reasons that are very complicated. Complicated family stories. Can you imagine such a thing? Yeah, Beethoven had a complicated family. So it was a few years before he could get back to Vienna. In the meantime, Mozart died, because Mozart died quite young. But Haydn said, I'll take you as a student. So he studied with Haydn, the other person that he really revered. So he really learned a lot from those two composers. What he learned from Mozart is melodies and lots of them. Just keep coming up with new ideas, fresh ideas. And when things get old, just introduce something new. Something new, something new. Mozart could just create new melodies. They just shook right out of his sleeve, it seems like. What he learned from Haydn was sort of the opposite. How to take one little idea and get the maximum out of it. How many different ways can I twist and turn one little musical idea to get a new way of hearing and a new way of thinking about it? So what's the one little idea that we have in this symphony? And it comes back over and over and it's different every time. That's Haydn teaching. But Haydn never does this. So it's Beethoven taking what he learned from those two and just saying, how far can I take this? Just like they tell stories in each of their movements. He says, I want to tell a story that goes through the whole symphony. He's building on what they did. And that extremely energetic quality. And then the way he's using the orchestra, you're quite right to point that out. Anybody notice that when we got to the last movement, the orchestra got bigger? It actually did. There are instruments that we hear in that last movement that we didn't hear earlier. You may have noticed that there were some trombones playing. They don't play in the first three movements. He saves them for the end. Why? Because trombones are going to have that big regal sound and it's going to be a lot of sort of oomph right in the middle of the orchestra. He wants that last movement to have this oomph that he didn't have before. He also adds a piccolo, which doesn't seem like a big deal, but it brightens the top of the orchestra. So he gets this extra sense of light and light quality piccolo. Save it for the fourth movement. And then the other thing he has is a contra bassoon. That's like this super big bassoon that sounds super low. In Beethoven's time, that was the lowest of the wind instruments. The tuba hadn't been invented yet. He might have used the tuba if he had a tuba. I don't know. But he uses the contra bassoon so he can get super low notes. So he's got this extra oomph at the bottom of this orchestra. He's got this brightness at the top. He's got those three trombones in the middle. So the orchestra is just literally louder in the finale than it was through all the earlier movements. Mozart and Haydn never do anything like that. That's Beethoven saying, I can just bring in extra musicians towards the end. Of course, in the ninth symphony, he's going to bring a whole choir and singers and vocal soloists. But here we see the beginnings of that here in the fifth symphony. A couple of questions, too. It seems to me that Mozart sets out a melody and he keeps it going. And he finishes it and then he repeats it. Yes. Beethoven, I think, is very impatient in it when you're trying to play Beethoven music on the piano compared to Mozart music. Every few measures, he's doing something different. And I find that a kind of impatience. I wonder, is that because he wanted to be modern in some way? Mozart and Haydn maybe were old-fashioned and he wanted to be modern and so he kept changing everything after every few bars. You know, maybe. When he was a young man, he wanted nothing more than to just emulate those two. It's like, if he could write music that sounded like Haydn and Mozart, sort of like put the two together, then that would have been perfectly satisfying in early Beethoven works. Kind of fit that description. But then middle period, around the age of 30, when he starts dealing with his deafness, it all really changes. And that impatience could come out of the fact that he's dealing with very difficult live situations and his temper fluctuates. And I think you hear that in the music. He's not satisfied to be in one place for very long, is he? It's like, he gets antsy and itchy and the music has to go someplace else. This is the guy who's having trouble with his hearing. He's a musician. He's having trouble with his hearing. At the age of 30. So there's a kind of a autobiographical element to it. Yeah, you feel like something's going to explode. I think he felt like something's going to... His friends certainly felt that way about him. He had a very volatile personality. And I think that comes through in his music. You can kind of understand why. There's another question over here. Someone else? Was the fifth symphony considered one of his better symphonies? Yeah, it was very well received right from the beginning. Which isn't always true for a lot of music. No, people really got this. And here's the two things that they got about it. They got that it was telling a story that went from beginning to end. People understood that at the time. And they understood that that story was Beethoven's own story. Now, they didn't know about his deafness, but they just got this feeling that this composer is telling us about his own life. There is personal autobiographical life experience in this music. And it's funny because we sort of expect musicians express themselves in their music. Isn't that what music is all about? But it really wasn't true before this. Like Haydn Mozart, their music is absolutely gorgeous. We don't particularly feel like Haydn is telling us of his innermost secrets. He's just writing really beautiful music that's really great. And it has his personality in it. Same thing with Mozart. But with Beethoven, we feel like he is telling us about his life. And people picked up on that right away. Which is an interesting thing. So in a way, Beethoven changes the way we hear music, the way we listen to music, because now we expect that from music. We expect an artist to put their life into their artwork. But that hasn't always been true. That seems like a universal. But no, we went through thousands of years in the western world of not expecting that from art. And it changes when? Right about this time. Why? Because of this music. It just changed the way we hear music. All kinds of music. We're asking us, going once, going twice, anyone else? Oh god, thank goodness. This is a non-musical question. But I got curious. I thought Haydn and Beethoven worked or lived in different countries. So what city were they together with? In Vienna. So Haydn was born in Hungary, but he came to Vienna for his musical career. Beethoven was in Bonn, which today is Germany and Germany and Austria are two separate countries. But back then they were both still part of the Holy Roman Empire. You can imagine that. We learned about that in history class and it was way, way back. It was not completely gone until, right? A little bit after this. Napoleon kind of brought it into the Holy Roman Empire. So Bonn was politically connected to Vienna and Vienna was the big city where everything happened. It was like, what New York is today? If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. Vienna was the city where you went if you wanted to have a big career in music. Bonn was not that kind of a place. So for Beethoven, getting to Vienna and establishing himself was a childhood dream that he did achieve. And then he never left Vienna for the rest of his life. So then Haydn had a career in Vienna? Yes, he did. Wasn't he with the Esterhazy? The first part of Haydn's life, he worked for a prince, Prince Esterhazy, a Hungarian name, whose estate was not far from Vienna. And then after the prince's death, Haydn was kind of an independent musician and he lived in Vienna and wrote music for publication, had public concerts, toured, he went to London. But Vienna was his home base for the second part of his career. Since he wasn't working for the prince, was he just composing and then hoping to make money with it? Yeah, this was kind of a tough thing. People hadn't really figured out how to do this much in the 18th century. The idea was that if you're a musician, you get a job either with a church or with the aristocracy. That's kind of it. And Haydn was with the aristocracy and his prince died and the new prince didn't care a thing about music. But he had been publishing music and he found that he actually could make money off the publications of his music and performances himself. And then tours where, because of the publications, he was famous all over Europe. And he got to London. Everybody knew Haydn's music and he was a celebrity, which is interesting because he was past 60 then. It was the first time he'd been working for this little prince in this little tiny estate for all these years, kind of out in the country. And then at 60, he started a new career, a more public career and found out that he was famous everywhere. So he had this great latter part of his life, Haydn did. And those are the years when Beethoven was studying with him. So then Beethoven was also just making music on his own. Yeah, he never worked for an aristocrat the way Haydn did, the way Mozart did some. Mozart had trouble with that whole career path too. But Beethoven found that public demand for his music, you know, orchestras would pay him, write us a new symphony, it'll pay you for it, okay, great. And then other orchestras would play it, they'd publish the music, could make money that way. So he just, it was very entrepreneurial. Thank you so, so much. This was such fun. Thank you so much.