 Why is the system so cruel? I'm joined now on the line by Noni Makunya who comes from positive money I'm sure I made a mess of your surname there, Noni. Thank you for joining us as an MP I came across this all the time the cruelty of the benefit system Did I explain the sanctions system fairly there? I think you did John and I feel like you really hit on the fact that the system of sanctions is basically just punishing the most vulnerable in society and making them pay the price for banks trashing the economy and the system itself is like just it's imposed inconsistently and without compassion for people and what's actually brought people there and it seems like it's just like we it's just another system of just punishing people for just trying to get by which is just not okay Now the department for work and pensions but for people who don't know what select committees are they're groups of MPs across the party system so the SNP Labour and Tory people all sitting together and they hold the relevant department to account and they're very useful because they don't try if they're run efficiently and I sat in one of them and it worked really well and it was one of my favourite parts of the job they don't try and score party political points they try to make legislation better and departments work better so what this work and pension select committee has discovered is that often these very draconian sanctions are deployed totally unreasonably they heard from somebody who said that she was sanctioned for going to a funeral there was another story of a woman who arrived she registered when she got to the the benefit office and she arrived for the interview she had her child with her and the child wanted to go to the bathroom and so she went and took the child to the bathroom when she got back from the bathroom they told her that she was going to be sanctioned because she wasn't standing at the desk because she'd had to go for the to take the child to the bathroom I mean this is a monstrous way to treat anybody isn't it and the end effect is that the children then suffer because there's not enough money to buy them food definitely and I think there's a case so the man who went to a funeral and missed his appointment at the job centre he got sanctioned nearly like five from his benefit payment went down from 705 pounds a month to 200 pounds a month and it's like how is anyone supposed to live like that you know and you know you can't pay for your rent you can't pay for transport you can't pay for food and you know people are just being punished for something that they haven't done and also they're the people who need the help the most and like this form of punishment which is just like you know as you said is like just applied inconsistently and without any compassion and sort of understanding of why people may not have been able to attend and it just it seems awful and I would you know I was when I was preparing for this I was thinking about how you know banks basically do like reckless and irresponsible behaviour ruined our economy and they have not been penalised as much as actual people are being penalised now you know now you know let me play devil's advocate for a moment because you know what the department itself said the DWP said that sanctions were only used in a minority of cases and a lot of people would say that you know there's a minority of people who are on benefits who behave in a chaotic and dysfunctional way don't turn up for interviews or hours and hours late and the system can't function if people don't turn up in time and so you know you've got to impose rules and say you have to be there to certain time if you don't turn up in time there are sanctions otherwise the system can't function? I firstly want to point out that I think a system based on punishing people is just never a good system and secondly you know we have people so there's like lots of stories of people you know I actually want to point out that it seems like a majority of people are actually looking towards the sub-flight you know being supported and also the ones who are not claiming benefits are going to pay day loans, are borrowing money, are like caught in the same cyclical system of borrowing more money and it's just like everyone is struggling and at the same time as you know the argument of saying that you know we need to have a stricter system to do this and to make people turn up for appointments we're not really realising that especially as you've mentioned earlier like some of these people are people with kids who are struggling to find childcare and I saw like this the issue here is that we have one rule for banks and one rule for society banks are responsible, irresponsible, are reckless and I just do not care about society I don't see them being punished as much as these people are being punished