 I have Austin Edgar who is a security airspot who joins us this morning in Ibadan via Zoom. Austin, it's good to have you join us. Good morning. Yes, please. But you remember that we've had this conversation as to the killings, recent killings in Benwa state in security which is worrisome and recently you have tribal leaders who are asking President Mohammad Buhari to declare a state of emergency, not just in Benwa state but the entire country over in security. But just before we get to that part of it, I'd like to ask you as an expert, what exactly do you think we're dealing with in Benwa state? What security situation do you think is headers, farmers clash? Do you think it's a terrorist incident, tribal conflict? What exactly do you think we're dealing with here? I think it's an internal conflict. It's an internal, from my perspective, it's an internal conflict. Because over time, the killings is coming from one particular region and that is the southern district of Benwa state. If you look at it from the northern Nazis, where they have the sitting governor, we don't have much crisis there and also where the governor elects, that is the eastern side, we don't have problems but we have this problem right at the southern region. And remember the southern region is where we have the former Senate President David Mac. And they have had a lot of political, they always have a political crisis in that state. I've been privileged to speak with a few people and I think it's more of an ethnic thing within them but it's not out of place that when people want to hide their activities, they can call it headsmen or bring in some machinery to preach those havoc and so that they don't link it to them, it's not out of place to think in that manner but whatever it is, I see it as a political crisis. Okay, but we have Leonid here in the studio. Leonid, I know that you leave or your community is very close to Benway and I'm sure that you have an idea of what's going on. So what do you think that we're dealing with now, the insecurity issue in Benway state might be? Well, look, I heard from Ali Fokpa in Yatcha, Yalaluku government and incidentally we have a boundary with the crisis, where these killings are being ongoing, we have a boundary with them. Remember, we have what we call the Lollugal boundary in Ali Fokpa that actually separated the southern protectorate from the northern protectorate, it's a landmark boundary for security reasons too and maybe that's what is still helping us because we would have been faced with this attack but I am sorry, I may want to disagree with my brother over there that says it's more political, I don't think so, I don't think it's more of an internal squabble because these killings have a pattern, I don't think it is ethnic base in Benway state, you know the government of Benway state is severely, the husband we are attacking is state, so I don't think it's political to me, it may be have other reasons to say but I think it's more of a external aggression and the question is that, have there been any punishment? We say we are governed by the constitution, we are governed by laws in this country, these aburations, these killings, there have not been any kind of, any kind of prosecution in the country, people just do all sorts of immunity, keep people and this is a continuous process. Okay, look at the massacre in Easter, where people were celebrating Easter, publicly this and then of course you know we have a new governor-elect in the present of the high sense, a clergyman, so we thought that okay, what is political about that, that is my query and maybe I'll succumb to superior argument, so but the question is that, there have not been any kind of deterrence whatsoever and when you don't have those deterrence, just I keep saying crime happens all over the world, you know in 2019 I got elected as a member of the charter mass and what we basically discussed is that, look, why do we have crimes in Africa that is more pronounced than other parts of the world? Here, there's no punishment, there's no deterrence, people don't do whatever they do and they go out of it. But what if, I mean if you look at it because that case is very peculiar, for instance you want to look at the entire, you find out that the police is responsible for protecting, you know, the police are other security agencies, but we're saying because I mean our issues peculiar, over 200 plus million persons, was the number of personals that we have. Yes, so you also need to agree, you also need to look at, you know, some issues that are peculiar to this, I mean there's been several argument that we need to restructure the security architecture so that you have states controlling the architecture, they can recruit as much as they want, so they are able to cater for them. But that's on the one hand because if you look at it, you probably might want to say that maybe, just maybe, the security architecture in the states are not able to contain, you know, all of this. Of course, not at all. If you look at session 214, I've been trying to avoid, I have to. If you look at session 214 of the Constitution, it talks about the control command of the police force. So the governors, who are the chief secretary officers, have no control. For instance, if a governor of a state is not in good terms with the commission of police, I'm telling you that if he gives the order to the commission of police, he or she will not take it, he will wait for the IG's directive. And that's why I said, look, policing has to be decentralized. We should have state policing. We should have a kind of vigilante system where, especially in very rare states, where they can respond quickly. No, so we still have Austin Edgar here now. Austin, if I'm sure that you would agree with me that we need to understand, you know, the problem, root cause analysis or whatever it is that's causing this insecurity. And if we're able to understand it, then it will be easy for us to address it. But you two have seemed to have different opinion. You say that it's political, and he thinks that it's not political. But however, let's also get to another part of the conversation where stakeholders in this community, and a lot of persons are asking that we should declare a state of emergency. The president should go ahead and declare a state of emergency because it's unbecoming. Do you think that we have gotten to that point, and especially in Benway state, and, you know, in Nigeria as a whole, that a state of emergency should be declared? I would be very particular with Benway state. And the legal ban there did not agree. I don't expect him to agree with my own argument because we have a pattern of analyzing crime. And from the perspective of which have analyzed this crime, the crime is coming from one particular geo area of the states. If this crisis is spread across the north, the east and the southern districts of Benway state, then we agree that it's something else. But whereby one particular aspect of the kingdom in Benway state is being affected, and then we begin to see things different. And that's why the communities that are crying for a state of emergency, meaning that at this point, I think from their own, they have lost confidence, even in their own government. And these, these are, you know, these, these things where the way happened, they have more information than all of us. And I think it is the right thing to do because this is a massacre. It's something that they are taking that's still pounding on one side of the community, one aspect, one aspect is one geo zone. So if you're analyzing a crime and you say that, okay, it's a general thing in the whole Benway state, then we expect that we should have some kind of attack in the east, in the north, and then in the south. But now it's concentrated in the south. So when something is concentrated in one aspect, then we know that there is something there. So I think I agree with the leaders. Okay, so Nika Gulay is here. Nika Gulay is an indigene of Benway state. He joins us this morning from the United Kingdom. Let's, let's even show your thought, Nick, how do you feel about, you know, the recent killing in Benway state, all of the attacks? And do you also agree that a state of emergency should be declared? Do you have an idea of what exactly might just be going on in terms of insecurity? Do you think it's, you know, headers, farmers clash? What exactly communal conflict? What exactly do you think is going on in your state? Nika Gulay, can you please unmute your device? We're running out of time. Okay, yes. Yes. Thank you very much. Merci for admitting me into the program. I feel very sad as an indigene of Benway state. And even if I were not an indigene of Benway state, I will still, I will still feel very sad for the one time killing of human life, taking of human life by this bandit. Human life is sacred, and it should not be taken in the way that we are seeing in Benway state. And as to whether this is being perpetrated by his men, or the locals, or anything, it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all. The Nigerian government is there with the primary responsibility to provide security of lives and property to Nigerians. And whoever is taking arms against Nigerians, the Nigerian government should face the person, like I was making, I made a speech a few days ago. I said in the United States, if you take a gun against American citizens, the American government also faces you with a gun. They don't care from where you're coming from. They don't want to know if you are white, black, you are your enemy, grand, or you are a bomb. They face you with a gun. It's after they fix an appointment with God for you that they go back and start checking who this person is. They will go to your house. I mean, we had a case just, was it yesterday or two days ago, an employee in a bank, he entered the bank and started shooting at his colleagues in the bank, killing about four of them. Within minutes, the security were inside that bank and they took him out. It is after they took him out that they now went to his house to go and investigate and say, what could be the motive? What's happening here? Does he have collaborators and all of that? But we're not seeing that happening in Nigeria. These killings will happen. The perpetrators will be allowed to go scot-free and then we're here analyzing. Are they full and enhancement? Are they locals? Did they confirm Mali? Did they confirm Niger? That is failure on the side of government. Whoever takes hands, whoever he is, whether he's local, he's a vigilante, he's a full and enhancement, he's a PC member, PDP member, whoever face that person with a gun and protect Nigerians. And now to your question about whether a state of emergency should be declared. There's no need for a state of emergency. State of emergency to do what? We have the entire security structure of Nigeria. We have a chief of defense staff. We service chiefs. We have an inspector general or police. Then we have the intelligence agencies like the DIA, the NIA, the DSS, them just do their work. What is a state of emergency? What is a state of emergency going to add to this situation? Do you understand? The question should be why is it that people can come in Nigeria at random and they are allowed to go? Why are they allowed to go? That is the question, Messi, that needs to be asked for the security agencies and their commander in chief, President Buwari. Okay, so, I mean, so, but now the people, this is actually not even, it's a lot to grapple with when you talk about 400 people dying in three weeks according to reports. I mean, these are reported cases. So, you don't even want to delve into on reported cases and this is just for a state because we have also witnessed and seen that shortly after the election, there seemed to be an uprise in insecurity in different parts of the country and that's nothing to write. Every other time you have people losing their life, it's nothing but gentlemen, as we cost this down because we're out of time, I'll just allocate one minute to each of you to just answer. What exactly is the way forward? Do we need to improve? Is it that we're overwhelmed? Is it that we lack political will? Where exactly is the challenge and what is the solution? So, I start with you, Nika Gulay. The solution for me is as simple as it is. We cooperate our democracy from America. We also have aspiration to join the top 20 industrialized nations. So, the only thing we also need to be doing is to do the things that those people are doing to be great, to become industrialized, to become developed. You cannot be saying I want to catch up with someone in a race and the person is driving in a Ferrari and you are going by bicycle. Can you catch up with him? You know, so in the United States, as I gave the example, anybody that takes arms against American citizens faces firepower from the American government. Simple. It doesn't matter who the person is. Nobody debates about who this person is. Is he white, black? Is he Latino? Is he an immigrant? Is he a member of the Democratic party or Republican? No, no, no, no. Once you take arms against American citizens, you should be faced with firepower. Okay. And that is what needs to happen in Nigeria. Okay. Once you do that, Austin, to everybody, that if I take arms against Nigerians, I will not come at a life. That will be the solution. Austin, what are your thoughts on this? Let's not play politics with security, because it has to do with human lives. You can't recover it. There's nothing as expensive as that. Politics should be set aside from security matters. So you think? That should reinforce security. So you think that that's the case right now for us in Nigeria? Especially... That's the case. Oh, okay. That's the case. They are playing politics. They are playing politics with security, with human lives. And that's what is happening in the West. Okay. So interesting to note how that's panning out. But you're here now and we'll just, you know, end this with you. What are your thoughts on this? I think we are on the same page, all of us now, that there should be punishment for offenses, for offenders. We should implement the sanctioning aspect of the law. And we should... I mean, I'll take it further apart from the point where we should have good governance. Look, if we get the local government system right, because whether we like it or not, there's a failed local government system in Nigeria. You know, I have to deliver a lot of lectures on this at different for us. If the local government system works, and of course, works with the locals and then the state, and then we have the state policy, those are solutions to it. So if, for instance, Governor Tom doesn't need to always be crying to Abuja for security men. So these are basically what we need to do, punish offenders, have the local government system work, and have state policy. Well, Leigh Annette, we will talk about this local government system, especially when we just, you know, looked at the dispensation of constitutional review. And the governors or the House of Assembly members, not even okaying financial autonomy for local government. That's a conversation for another day. We have to go. We've had fine gentlemen, one in the studio, and of course we've had those who've joined via Zoom this morning. Nika Gule joined us all the way from the United Kingdom. And then we also have Austin Ega, who's a security expert who joined us this morning from Ibadan. And in the studio, Leonard Ayago, who is a member of a Chatham House, a legal practitioner who joined us this morning on the show. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being part of the breakfast. Thank you so much. All right then. Thank you. Well, that's the size of it. I hope we have had a great time. You and I have had a great time. We appreciate that you have been part of the show this morning, seven o'clock up until this moment. That's the size of it. We will take a break. So we joined the newsroom at nine o'clock for the news brief. Now, if you missed that on any part of the conversation, I'd ask that you join us on any of our social media platforms as you subscribe to our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa, Plus TV Africa Lifestyle. Also on Facebook and Twitter, Plus TV Africa. And of course, Plus TV Africa Lifestyle. My name is Messia Boko. Have a great morning.