 Hello everybody, welcome. Welcome to our annual Leventus lecture, our Centre for African Studies annual event. It's a very great pleasure for me to welcome you here and to introduce our fellow for this year who's been here for the past term we have a, we have two Leventus fellows who join us every year. The lecture this evening will be by Salahou Mustafa, who joins us from Amadobello University. Salahou completed his first degree at Bayero University in Kano. And he completed, I'm very happy to say he completed his PhD in South Africa at the University of Zulaland. And he will be speaking to us this evening on the collapse of industries in northern Nigeria in the 21st century. This is of course a topic that's very close to all of us. It's all those of us on the African continent have witnessed the collapse of domestic economies as a consequence of neoliberal economy, neoliberal policies and structural adjustment programs ever since the 1980s. This is much of the continent, southern east and west Africa. And Salahou will be speaking to us today about his particular case study in northern Nigeria. Thank you very much. Hello, we were very happy to lecture and welcome again. Just as you are about to leave us. Thank you. Good evening. I would like to first and foremost, to turn the 11th AJ 11th selection committee for finding us worthy for this award. I will thank you very much for that. I would also like to turn will be more relaxed, who has been here since my arrival, and we've been discussing about the topic. Of my research or the paper will be presenting the title is a factor underlying the collapse of industries in northern Nigeria and its impact on society and economy. Since 1999, and the paper is divided into three parts. Part one deals with introduction. Part two deals with factors responsible for the collapse of industries and the tax part of the paper, the impact of the collapse of industries on the economy and society of northern Nigeria. For the, for this paper, we need to have a background of what is northern Nigeria. Nigeria is one of the largest countries in Africa with roughly estimated population of 2 million and 16, I mean, 260 million assets 15 November 2022 when the world population rate 8 billion. The importation of Nigeria now is put us 2 million, I mean, 260 million population, we have. We look at the factors responsible for the collapse of industries. We have various factors. Number one, we said there is inadequate power supply. We have the importation of foreign goods. Imposition of different forms of taxation are labors. Number three, structural adjustment program, which introduced by Bob Angida administration military administration in 1986. Then lack of proper implementation of national development plans and industrial development policies and strategies. The impact of the collapse of industries include insecurity, loss of jobs and conclusion. Then the factors responsible for the establishment of industries or in northern Nigeria. There must be a factor or reason for which an industry can be located in a particular area. Even though the other part of Nigeria, especially the southern part of Nigeria, had their industries earlier, because industries were first established in the southern parts of the country. We shall discuss and reason why. Then much later, the industries were established in northern Nigeria. So we look at the reasons for the establishment of industries in northern Nigeria. Number one, the population. If we look at the population of Nigeria, over 60 to 70% are in the northern part of the country. If we look at the land mass, over 70 to 80% of the total land mass of Nigeria is in the northern part of the country. Then the raw materials, because for one to establish or to site an industry in a particular area, it needs a raw materials, which can be used to feed the industries. So there are a lot of raw materials, such as granades, cotton, high-end skin and other abundance raw materials, mainly derived from agriculture. Because northern Nigeria is the food basket of Nigeria. Then there were financial incentive provided by the then original government, which led by former premier of northern Nigeria, Sa'amadibelo, the Sardona of Sokoto. The establishment of industries in northern Nigeria took place in Pesis. The early ones, the first industries established in northern Nigeria were in small and medium size, employing 10 to 10 people. By 1957, there were 29 such industries in northern state, of which 20 were in Kano, 3 in Zaria and just and 10 in Kaduna. Then the large industries with large capacity was established also in 1957, and they were united Nigerian textile Kaduna, the Nigerian Tobacco Company located in Zaria, which later metamorphosed to become British-American Tobacco Company, and the last one, Nigerian bottling company, Kano. So here we are, we are going to look at the factors why those industries collapse, because between 1957 to 1970s, industries in northern Nigeria enjoyed a tremendous prosperity. In fact, a large community migrated from other areas and comes to settle in the industrial areas of northern Nigeria. And those areas are Kano, in Kano you find Bombay, Sharada and other parts of Kano. Then in Kaduna, you find industries, a number of them in Kalkuri, Joss, Plato State, Kaduna, I mean Zaria, Kaduna State, Ajalkuta, Kogi State, and so many other parts of northern Nigeria. There are a number of those industries which enjoyed government support between the period I mentioned earlier. But from 1999, there was a transition from a military regime to a democratically elected government in 1999. So from 1999, the number of industries in Nigeria began to decline drastically. One of the factors was inadequate powers of life. Nigeria had the capacity of generating more than enough power for the country, which can be derived from gas and other sources. But unfortunately, the corrupt leaders we had from the period to now have fallen and stole the money to the extent that from 1999 to 2014, over 16 billion US dollars were spent in the name of repairing our power sector. But yes, there was nothing right from about it. Most of the energy generating plant we have, they are located in Kainji, Jabba, Sharoro, and present Niger states. So you can see, based on my finding, the install capacity of current energy generation in Nigeria, supposed to be 7,876 megawatts, but the installed capacity available now is less than 4,000 megawatts. Even the 4,000 megawatt, I think in this year, 2022, there were about 30 or four times collapse of the national grid, total blackouts. So how can industry survive in such a circumstances or situation? I was able to highlight some of the problems associated with the power generation in Nigeria. The following are the challenges to power supply. Number one, inadequate and delayed maintenance of facilities. Number two, insufficient funding of power stations. Even if the government provided the fund, the government official youth misappropriate and misuse the fund for other selfish interests. Then the obsolete equipments and subterranean facilities and operational vehicles are also major problems. Then inadequate and obsolete communication equipments, then low morale of staff in the sector. Anybody who was working there will tell you what he earns a salary or whatever was discouraged. Before the NEFA, privatized and changed the name from NEFA to PHCN, Power Holding Company, in an attempt to restructure, to reorganize the sector, but yet there was no positive results. Another factor that led to the collapse of industries, not in Northern Nigeria alone, in Nigeria in general, there was a high volume of importation of foreign goods and services, which it became difficult for locally produced goods and services to compete with that of the foreign one. For example, China. China is one of major importers of goods, especially cloth and other materials to Nigeria. So our local industries cannot compete with that of China. And the other factor, imposition of different forms of heavy taxation are labors. Here I must make it clear to you. We are not saying industrialists should not pay tax. Yes, we are not saying, but from the interviews I conducted with the industrialists, we discover that there are a number or a lot of duplications of such tax. So if you establish, no matter how small, even if it is a small or a medium industries, you will be battling with nearly 20 different agencies seeking to collect tax from you, from the ones owned by the federal government and the other one owned by the state and local government. At the top, we have federal, in the revenue and the federal revenue. There are other agencies who are collecting taxes from industrialists, which made it difficult for industrialists to work to operate the industries because they will be operating at loss. Another factor is structural adjustment program. So it was a policy, which was introduced by the then military head of state, General Ibrahim Bada Masi Baba in Gida in 1986, even though there was an attempt to introduce or to adopt the policy. Under Bahaari, the current head of president, when he was then head of state, but they were not succeeded in introducing the sub and to when Baba in Gida came into power, and the policy was introduced and accepted in 1986. And the whole idea of the structural adjustment program, it was a conditions given by the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, London Club, Paris Club and what have you for Nigeria to be given loan. One of the conditions given to Nigerian government then, devaluation of currency. The country's currency must be devalued. The purchase of power has to calm down. Number one, number two, there are subsidies given to industrialists, especially if they are, if they are importing a new equipment into the country. They are what we call import duties free for those industrialists. But based on this policy, government, I mean, I have forced government to withdraw all those subsidies, which seriously affected our local industries. The listing many, in fact, of sub, then another factor, lack of patronage of locally produced materials or goods and services. I think from the research, I was able to discover that, okay, our locally produced goods and services were rejected in many countries. Why because we failed to meet the standard international standard required for importation of our locally produced goods. For example, in 2000, between 2003 and 2007, there are over 103 different products produced locally in Nigeria. Which attempt was were made to export them, but immediately they were rejected a return. So I that much apart from where nothing is important to UK, as far as UK is concerned, is only where you find the UK multinational companies, especially in Niger, Delta and other places, but you find nothing that can be imported from Nigeria to UK. Then the last, but not least, is like a proper implementation of national development plans in an industrial development policies and strategy. You know, we have plans. If you look at the blueprint of our national development plan, you say, yes, government knows what they are doing, or what is doing is nice is fantastic in person and what I view, but the problem is implementation. There was serious challenge in the implementation of national development plans from independence to debt. We had about five different national development plans. The first one was between 1962 and 1968. The second one, 1970 to 1974. The third one, 1975 to 1980. The fourth one is 1980 to 1985. And now nobody can tell you if we have any, as far as Nigeria is concerned. Even though there was vision 2020 under Abacha, 2020, 2020, yes, there was something like that. It's just like the blueprint of Abacha's administration, but immediately after he has gone, nothing again. Okay, so we are done with the factors that led to the collapse of industries in Northern Nigeria. So now we shall look at the impact of the collapse of industries on the society and economy. The impact of collapse of industries in Northern Nigeria, because this is the area of my research, cannot be over-emphasized. You shed tears if you, by the time you start interviewing people who lost jobs as a result of closure of industries in many places. In Kaduna alone, there were 11 textile industries which were closed down. They were major industries. Each one had over 20,000 capacity of employment, but they were closed down. I went there. In fact, there are a number of pictures I will show you where the industries were closed. You find something in Kano, you find something in Joss, in Zaria, in Koji, and so many other part of Northern Nigeria. So the closure of those industries has rendered a number, had rendered a number of people jobless. I said, what I want to discuss with one of our friends here, who happened to live in Kaduna for quite some time. We discussed about kakuri. The whole kakuri in Karnia and other places emerge as a result of industrial activities, because of the number of industries. It's an industrial layout where a number of industries were located or sighted. But now, if you go there, you won't see anything. They are no longer working. At the beginning, the stats collapsing gradually, declining up to the final state. Some, maybe from the interview I conducted, they told me, okay, from the beginning if the company or the industry had the capacity of 20 laborers, they reduced, they started reducing to 12,000 later up to the time they have no option. They have no option except to close down the factories. There is a finding which I collaborated. There was a crisis which government perceived then as religious crisis. But from my finding, it wasn't. It was a socio-economical crisis, because most of the people who affected or participated in the crisis, mostly were the people who lost their job in the industries in Kaduna and other parts of northern Nigeria, because Kaduna at one time was the headquarters of northern Nigeria. So they are our inflow of people from other parts of northern Nigeria to Kaduna. So lack of job or the loss of job make a number of people to be jobless. There is one problem which says an ideal man is a what double workshop. So many people found themselves in such, these are some of the example, the outcome of the crisis, for example, between 2000 and 2001, by 2002, because people sees it as a religious crisis, which actually wasn't. Kaduna has to be divided, the capital, the headquarters has to be divided into two. There was a red line between the Muslim dominated area and the Christian dominated area. These are some of the examples I was trying to give. Okay, then, most of the, I tried to summarize, most of the affected areas or industries were food and beverages industries, automobile industry. Then there are decaying infrastructure facilities, decreased in the revenue generation. Then there are also it is also affected media printing, publishing and construction company. This table is a number of industries collapse in Kaduna state. For example, between 1999 and 2010, we have 11 textile industries, completely shut down. We have manufacturing industries, 192 automobile like pan and what I do, we have two of them. Media printing and publishing company 25, health and pharmaceutical, health and pharmaceutical industries five, mine for agriculture and food processing, 107 oil and petrochemical, eight and petrochemical. I'm talking about fertilizer company. There was a huge fertilizer company in Kaduna, which also affected by, by, by the policy and other factors. This is one of the tech industries. This is an textile industries in industry located in Kaduna, Calcuri. Around there, there are 11 of them, United Nigerian textile, Zampera textile, and so on and so forth. Okay, this is my conclusion. Okay, thank you for listening. Thank you very much. We now welcome our discussion to the, yeah. So, yes, thank you so much. Now our discussion we're very pleased to welcome here. Dr. Amisu Saliu is completed his PhD at SOAS. So he's like one of us, but at the same time is also originally from the same region as I was speaking so is a nice coincidence. And they are both experts on this topic of economic development in Nigeria. So please, Amisu join us here on the stage on the table. And now, Amisu is going to take over the discussion. So he's going to comment on on the paper, present it, and then we will take some questions from the audience, as well as from our online audience. There are people online. And there are some questions, a couple of questions from here as well. So, we will do, we will take a question from both. Amisu, over to you. We have a lot of surplus weights from the sale of agricultural commodities. And as a result of the mass of that surplus weights, they entered in partnership with a lot of technical for partners to establish or found some industries. So the industry is actually kept on growing from 1950s to 60s and 70s. And the number of parcels that is caused by the people from Tantra from the industries. What's the most fundamental of those parcels, sorry, the oil boom of 1970s to 1973 and 1939. Yeah, as we are aware of the oil booms. And those oil booms led to the inflow of oil dollars to the compass of Nigerian government. And it then led to the award of a number of subsidies to industries by the government. And those subsidies have the good impact of helping to boost the growth of these industries. And on another hand, they also have a very good impact of, you know, because upon that, they were not tied in any position. There are more orders for the problems. And those political problems will not have any partnership. And of course, that kind of productivity and competitiveness in the industry, which actually led to the collapse of the industries, when the structure of those programs was in 1986. Because if those types of industries had a lot of productivity and competitiveness in the 60s and 70s when they were receiving British government support in terms of subsidies, they definitely would have competed when the structure of government programs was introduced in 1986. But because they were not able to do that, when the economy was open up, you realize that they couldn't favorably compete with that in politics for a time at a finished product. And he also looked at the process of collapse. You look at the infrastructure, one of the process of collapse. Yes, infrastructure is one of the problems that led to the collapse of industries in Nigeria. And then also considered the impact of the collapse of the industry in Nigeria, which is of course there for everyone to see. And I would particularly want to talk on the impact of the generation between which I don't know if you have mentioned that. In the United Nations, the Nigerian enterprise's promotion was introduced in Nigeria. And what basically was about, was that setting industries have to be left, or setting shares in some industry, three industries have to be left for Nigeria to participate in. Which means that if, like a foreign guy has a company in Cardinal, you would have to forgo a part of the shares of those companies in Virginia's Nigerians. And as a result of that, we witness massive exodus of a number of industries out of Nigeria. Because it simply doesn't look right for an investor who has invested heavily in an industry to share a part of the substantial portion of the shares to these indigenous Nigerians who might not have the technological capabilities to oversee the governance of these industries. So that a huge portion of entrepreneurs who had the skills and capabilities to run profitable businesses in those industries left a huge backing that Nigerians especially the traditional former military generals who had some control issues in some of this industry could not eat. And that also is a factor that I have wished you and also emphasize on as a, as a, as a course of the collapse of the industry. And before, first up for the cement industry, I would have looked also you discussed about the impact of the cement armada of 1974, which basically was a standard where the military government at that particular point in time avoided the importation of about 16 million metric tons of cement into Nigeria, even when the capacity of the local parts in Nigeria was just one million metric tons of cement in that particular tank, because of corruptions of course underneath for them to, you know, open up opportunities for primitive accumulation for, for sustain their regime. And the, finally, this was about the impact of collapse of the industry, which is of course, which is most likely to do with the issue of insecurity in Nigeria. In a paper that I wrote in 2015, I actually trace the causes of Boko Haram to social economic factors of poverty, illiteracy and employment in northern Nigeria. The paper is entitled, is Boko Haram a child of economic circumstances. So in that paper, I actually make the case that, apart from what many observers may make or Boko Haram has some religious inspiration and motivation, but there are certain factors such as the high prevalence of poverty in the northern Nigeria and high prevalence of unemployment resulting from the collapse of these industries we talked about. Because in the 1980s, at the peak of the textile industry, it employed over 250,000 direct workers. And by the end of 2010, all of those industries in Kanduna, Kano, and Zaria are last completely. So you can imagine what the impact will be for the families and the both, social for aging and what I mean. So that is it, I think, and we may now begin to open the floor for some questions. Thank you very much. A rather simple question. Is the fact that Kanduna really has no basis in local society. The north isn't really a normal eminent structure. The people like Martin Book or the rest were there. They didn't provide the economics ability. And Kanduna's son, almost the entire labor population, were microns from the middle, sent their wages back home. It was a very strange world. And the thesis is done on Kanduna's style, emphasize what a transient world Kanduna was. So my argument would be that, whereas it being, say, Kana, the industrial based right to be supported by the Kanduna trading company, all that sort of world, which survived much more strongly than they were as in Kanduna, apart from the railway junctions and the military. What was going on? What was the whole social structure that might have supported the thesis that they, because the genocide was a very strange world. And it's a very, very strange world. But it was not sort of anchored in the roots of the northern commercial mercantile scene. Okay. Can I always take more questions? Okay. You are Kanduna man. As you are fully aware, Kanduna is initially or was initially administrative capital of northern Nigeria. So historically, you cannot compare Kanduna and Kana. I'm talking about the composition, the Kanduna city, the Kanduna, because being the administrative capital, people from all over the part of Nigeria came there and settled and do their businesses. They settled for as long as they were in power. As soon as they lost power, they were gone. It's a currency. It's all depends. If you're talking about the movers and shaker, that's what we call them Kanduna mafia. Those who hold political, who hold political offices, who are deeply rich, they live their ladies, their towns and what I do, and come to settle in Kanduna. But we are talking about two different categories of people. Those who are mainly laborers, who are in Kanduna for economic activity, who work in the industries to earn a living and to send back to their family. And we have another set of people who are elites, allies from northern Nigeria. Anybody from northern Nigeria who is rich or who happen to hold a political office or hold a government official or happens to be one of the top government official must have powers in Kanduna. Even in Kanduna in a choice location in Manali and Warimi and some other part of Kanduna. And they are there just to enjoy the money. When the money finishes, then they go back to their locality and live with their locality. In the case of Kanduna, we talk about Anguete. Even in Kanduna, Anguete made no attempts to assist people to salvage their industries in Kanduna because he is part and parcel of the rest. In fact, there is a way in which you can say Anguete has contributed tremendously to the collapse of industries in northern Nigeria. In fact, the people of northern Nigeria, even though they are some, is part of them, but they are accusing you of contributing in the collapse of industries in northern Nigeria. Virtually now, all the businesses owned by, I mean, all the businesses, most of them is owned by Anguete. For example, the cement. Anguete bought the Boko in Binoy, you know Binoy area where it's at. It's a mini company. He bought the other one in Kogi. In fact, all the, all the cement companies we have in Nigeria are owned by Anguete except that of Sokoto Boa, owned by of the Samaritans here in Karabi. They look at sugar, look at rice, look at virtually. In fact, Sungun hand it to me, the Firae Deme under Bahrain, picked Anguete and give him a contract of billions later to build or construct refinery in the others. So Anguete, there is a way we can say he has contributed immensely in the collapse of industries in northern Nigeria. Anguete has no any industry in northern Nigeria except that, that for Kogi, what you call the, no, in Kogi, over there. That is only cement company guys in northern Nigeria. But he made northern Nigeria a consumer, a market because of our population. So he go to Lagos, he go to Abeputa, Ibadan, and what I do produces everything, then send it back to northern part. And most of the materials, I mean raw materials used in the production were produced in the northern part of the country and take it to southern part. In this scientific, is it logical, why can't you come to northern state, establish them industries, it's in their availability of raw material and make good use of them. And also to why it doesn't set up all the industries in Kuduna because the labor supply is naturally based there. Is that the answer? I mean, you know, thank you. Yes, yes sir. Kuduna is, we call it colonial city. In March as a result of regular activity, which a number of laborers implode or came to settle them. Thank you. I think also the issue of like the quality of the employees and between the south and the north is also a factor. Because down south you have comedy, high skilled workers, whereas in most of the nose, you have like semi skilled and unskilled workers. And also the issue of security, which we have just talked about is one of the reasons investors look, it's one of the points investors look at, because it's sort of the best in the past, which is obvious to me. So, and the relatively affluent southern part of the country is of course more peaceful than the northern part of the country. You've painted the whole entire picture of the Nigerian economy as you posed, but northern Nigeria specifically, but some will be on the next step into the country as well. And I sort of wonder, I mean, you know, Nigeria still, one goes by the official statistics, it still has the largest GDP on that continent, claims to have. The rate of growth over the past seven years has possibly been substantial. So I just kind of wonder this question, where does all this come from? Is it all coming from the south? Or if the collapse of this time is, yes, where does the growth come from? Yes, even me, I used to wonder when maybe the government official were giving statistics that Nigeria and South Africa are the major economies in Africa. I put question mark. South Africa, yes, I can agree, because I was in South Africa for almost 34 years. I know what is economy is all about. The industry there, they are perfectly working, employing millions of people there. In parts, in South Africa, not all the South Africans can take any job, they have options. Most of the small, small, petty, petty jobs are what I do. I've been taken by people who came from Nigeria, Mozambique, Zumbabwe, Canada, and so on and so forth. In the course of my research, I went to so many places, like Richard's Bay, there was an industrial layout. I was there in Johannesburg, in Dava, and other parts of it. But in Nigeria, you cannot find anything from miserable to that of South Africa. And even the power, even though South Africa began to have a problem with energy problem, but not as that of Nigeria. I put out my stay in South Africa-German program. I can't remember a day or a second when there was no light, two hours. But in Nigeria, it's easier to go and find the whole locality with that light for five years, not even five days, five months, or five years. I can remember when I was childhood. We have what they call NYC, it's a National Society of Mandatory. I sat in one place in Bauchi. Two hours stay there, they have a slow night. So I think if you're talking about population and consumer society, Nigeria is number one. But if you are talking about major economy in South Africa, there is no way about it. But in Nigeria, even government is not sincere, there is no sincerity of purpose. They will say this now, tomorrow they will go and go another way. But in South Africa, you can see how government is serious, whatever it says, their meanings, whatever they do, their meanings. In infrastructure facilities, it's amazing in South Africa. In fact, when I went to South Africa first, I was wondering, am I in Europe or in Africa? Is it in Africa? Of course, it's in Tambo. It's in Tambo International Airport. I wrote a PIE with that of M.M.2, Murtala Mohanbo Airport. Or Dr. Nambiazuki Airport, Abuja, or Malang, in Indian color. So South Africa, Nigeria, they just create orders, pickers, and sell it. I had to talk about corruption. Corruption is one of the factors. But when I discussed with Professor Morilas, he said, okay, issue of corruption is broad. If we brought it here, it may take the one and a half hour presentation discussing corruption in Nigeria. But I know, as far back as 2015, in the run of corruption, Nigeria was attacked. So corruption is one of the major problems for Nigeria in the state. Thank you. Yeah, I would actually want to add something on this. You know, the composition of the GDP in Nigeria is largely, as a gross in Nigeria, largely goes down to the gross of the sadist sector. So the sadist sector is the one that is growing faster than any other sector. So the manufacturing value added in Nigeria is less than 15% as we are taking now. Two, as you know, the GDP gross domestic problem has been called a gross domestic problem. Of course, like it is not a precise, mathematically precise major of the gross of the GDP. We have a past informant sector, which is not captured by the GDP. And because most of the gross in the GDP, the year we hear gross, we are witnessing in the gross of Nigerian GDP, it's mostly accounted for by what? By the service sector. And most of the service sector is being taken over by highly skilled workers. So the low skilled, low and semi-skilled workers are stuck in the unemployment trap. They are stuck in poverty and they are stuck in most of the problems that Nigeria currently are facing. The question. Yeah, it's going to take a while. The question from someone who spoke with her, he said. The presentation is a very interesting and he said that what are you suggesting to do? And he says, should it be made by one or all of one state government to federal government and all city society in Nigeria? Okay. Well, I think the problem associated with industrial collapse in Northern Nigeria. Sometimes I used to say, all you got intervention, divine intervention will solve the problem because there were several attempts. To address the problem, especially by the industrialists who, who's in the parties were close. I can remember when number December was a vice president. And Oma Emya O'Connell. Sanusi was a CV and central bank governor. Those people association of industrialists met them and outlined their problem and how the problem can be addressed. And government said through CV and billions of NERA were lived because I remember I interviewed one of the industrialists in Karmat, the teacher at the hammer. I know you know him, the teacher at the hammer. He said, all we are dealing over the media about the government intervention and what I mean was not true. And later, what I discover or what they are like for industries to survive, to nourish in Nigeria and need a conducive atmosphere, working atmosphere. The policies, policies of government has to be very visited because the policies are no longer favorable for industrial survival in Nigeria. And there are a lot of inconsistency in the policy making of government. I've been hearing some governors saying, okay, they have attractors, a number of foreign investors. I said, they are just deceiving, electoral, the masses there. No foreign investor will come to your locality or to your state and invest a huge amount of money in the name of business. When you cannot even guarantee the lives of the city people, or class of other people who come and establish. I think Angelika, not quite long, I send you some of the reliefs from my university about security. Yes, yes. And what I mean, that people should be more careful about. But surely the security agencies, the government are not ready to address all this problem. That's what amounted to what the current problem we're investing in Nigeria. You cannot ask anybody to come and establish a business in a particular location where you cannot guarantee the security of his life, regardless of his poverty or what he's investing there. So number one, security. When I look at security is provided, then followed by energy power is central is important. And new nation, no society would have developed with that industries. In this validation, make life of society to be brighter and be careful. Thank you. I want to say a word for this one. Because the question is all about the solutions. It is clear that Nigeria has almost, we can say, putting it right through the cement industry. The major industries now that we are struggling to get right at the textile and maybe the iron and steel industries and other food and beverage industry. The question is, if Nigeria can get it right with the cement, why not with the textile and the other industries. Now, to answer this question, we of course need to look at what has been done in the cement industry, so as to seize the possibility of replicating what has been doing here in the other industries. Now, what has actually been done in the cement industry is that during the regime of former president on the ship on the bus and you can't all work on what a boy meeting and that's why you see that inside of the fact that we are when you endow it with the limestone, which is the major ingredient for making cement. We keep on importing more than 70% of our cement for our domestic needs. Now what I'm going to tell him was that it is because it is cheaper to import in wouldn't. Repackage it in 50 KT bucks and fairly, then it needs to produce locally. So now what did you do with that? He came up with the so-called backward integration policy for people like him, but he and ostensibly other investors, investors to seize the possibility of investing in the local cement industry. So that it impases the government will gradually stop the importation of the cement industry. And poverty quickly moved in by investing pay by over this come across cement industries, investing in them, collaborating with China and other countries to set up this industry. Start from this. And one of the policies that was smart enough to use was that okay, because importing and selling cement in Nigeria is a profitable business. And you need to be well connected with the powers that need to get the import import the import license to import cement in Nigeria. So now the people's importation of cement was made conditional to commitment to invest in local cement production. And as a result of that, the number of people who are looking for input licenses or licenses to import cement was limited because not everyone had the resources to invest or was even willing to invest in local cement production. But people like them, but one, because of the commitment to the government, which would signal through the integration of this policy, moved in and heavily invested in his come across in those things. And at the end of the day, the common base out now the importation. Okay, now that the companies you don't want to have bought and invested in have come of age to satisfy local cement demand. Now, we completely ban the importation of cement. But you could argue that this has it is one down side in the sense that, you know, Nigerian cement consumers buy cement at exorbitant prices. But still, the argument put forward by poverty and the over send you and even subsequent woman is that the helping at least reviving the cement industry to meet local demand, which was largely met by input before the introduction of the policies. And the way the policy works nowadays is that there has to be a synergy between the business community and the government. Now what was the sort of synergy between Congress and the over send you at the time was that Congress is of course not to be a major financial out the holding. And even to an extent the holding it is. So people always find the business quality, all this have to have that evening, through which they can reach out. We're looking for issues in power. So, of course, sponsoring their campaigns and what have you in return for favor policies in the industry of that operation, which is actually what happened in the same industry. And we finally want to write at least in the sense of our ability to meet domestic demand now, and our ability to collect some employees also for about 10000 workers in the cement industry, and also our ability to save some foreign exchange that in the industry went to cementing potential. So, in terms of the solution, I would argue, especially for the other sector that we are now struggling to apply, we need to adopt this model into the textile industry. And to an extent, even though I'm still in those days, and other industry could embrace that that Salih will save their collapse. And to do this will of course require a sophisticated look like, I will particularly talk on the textile industry, like the current governments are often tested and learning policy, like, attempt to offer all the industry in all its value chains from the cotton growing sector to be tested. This obviously is too much for the government. So instead of the government, especially in order to focus on all the sectors of this industry, it is better we go at it sequentially. And yet, maybe the potential right first, we want to specialize in potential, because the reality is that no country, not even China like specializing in all the value chains nowadays, you have countries like Bangladesh that specialize in garment production, and you have India specializing in garment, and also in cotton production. So let us focus, we want to make a stage of the textile industry. Let us say our textile industries can continue to import cotton from outside and manufacture the textile material we need, rather than to cause them to be sourcing their cotton from within when we know we have a problem with that. That was a was a good culture for in terms of the production of cotton nowadays. So this sequential and that's the policies that I think would be adapted to revive most of these industries. Thank you. Thank you. I was, I was just wondering, you know, this complex where you tried to trace the issue of industrial collapse. And then you, you, you, you risked five months for you. I'm just wondering the, the, the, the understanding, you know, and so for instance, talking about down with the investment itself, at what time, if you want to, you know, a push on blame. So at what point in time, it doesn't do this. The issue of urbanization, urbanization, yes. One of the reasons that we're not up on, because when you're looking at people's consumption, consumption is changed. I mean, people cannot afford as people do not afford to do better. So, I mean, all of these are there. On told stories about the collapse of industries. And more recently, the show of security down with the movies business. Maybe it's because the south. So, and you get the issue of education. So, I wonder if beyond the, you know, people supply other voiced, you know, reasons. And then I don't want to bring the issue of religion. But you know, it's a beauty space. One of these may be quite good. I mean, it's not effective. Based on just raising. Your question. I'm just bringing in another bread. The environmental question as well. I mean, we talked about the structure. And just for my own very basic. I found out a lot about the environmental impacts of monocotting. That was introduced. People are stationed as well. And that's impacting. I'm pushing a parent raising. Well, because. From that whole. It's also contributing again. So, you know, I'm not going to talk about the environmental impacts of industry. But how can we or how can manufacturers or. Not just. Care about the revival of industry. In terms of the economic. But also how for the environment. Although the cement industry. It's still. An incredibly attractive. Industry that has major. And it's the work in the past. That I've really been in a lot of that. So, I don't know. Again, it's just another layer. To add to the. Yeah. You can talk about this. This question. Yeah. Yes. I mean. That was related to the dam. And. The loss of our demands. Oh, To meet the environment. Not to bring in the soldier. Again, but it's a real. It's a real fascinating issue. And the two have to go hand in hand. It's among its development and environment. For. For. Thank you. You are right. We all know that. On top of those. And the environmentalists are strange. One is after profit and the other is after. The environment. And it is for this card. Even in developed countries like this. The right balance. And. That is where we see a lot of. On top of those companies and corporations. Sponsored research on. The environment. End of like. Mirroring. Like what they want. As. Those. But in developing countries to be. The honest. Who struggles. Issues of environmental disasters. As a result of most of this. Industrialization. So. Even the industrializations. We are beginning to find. Our routine. And the. Policy makers. At a loss. Often as to. Shoot the gold. Be the creation of jobs. Employment. In the lack of conservation of foreign exchange. At the expense of what. At the expense of the environment. So. It is always difficult to grow that line of balance, you know. Everyone should be concerned about. Where do you draw the right line? It's always. They already have not to drag. The policy. I think that it depends. The kind of policy. Because to be honest with you. We say we should care about the environment. We would practically not spend force in this. I should only talk about the different environment. Yeah, I agree with you, but what I'm saying is it is a task for citizens and decisions to make for all citizens. Of course, on top of what I know, it's like I'm going to say I'm going to say, if the profit comes first, then what I'm going to say, we would talk about the environment and what type it comes up to. And the government also needs to make revenues. And unfortunately for governments in developing countries, the sources of the revenue, because of the fact that we have few formal and big corporations such as, like, compared to developed countries, we have to, and it's not reliable, we want to have those who operate in an environmentally unfriendly manner in order to secure some of our revenues, to sustain our government and to sustain our economy. So what I'm saying, I care for the environment and the policy makers in developing countries also care for the environment, but there's always that difficulty of growing the right lines of where do we stop in our industry drive? Do we stop where the issue of environment begins and I want us to the economy and to the environment? Yeah, I think we got another couple. Maybe Derek, were you asking something earlier? No? Okay. Yes, can I just make one little comment before passing on to our colleague here? Yeah, no, I think I agree with Misu in the sense of like this idea of the environment is becoming almost like a slogan, like a ticking a box, like we all have to be concerned about the environment, but actually look at the UK, I mean, what kind of progress are they actually making? Rich nation where they are the cause of the environmental crisis, they're still investing in fossil fuel. So how can you expect countries in developing world where they're actually bearing the bigger price but they have the least capability to actually make the change into this situation we're in as a whole. So sometimes I understand, yeah, it's quite refreshing to hear from you because exactly it's like sometimes you feel like it's not that you are against the environmental issues, of course we all are supporting, we all know we are burning in this planet, but how do you actually, you know, in the real sense, because I feel even here we are stuck with the government that is not investing in the environment as it should with the sort of finances they actually have. Sorry, there was a little comment for me. And now I pass it on. Yeah, you have one more question. We don't have any more question from the audience. So I leave it another, yeah, if you want to conclude with some comment and question. Yeah. Okay, a bit of a nice question. But what would it take to invest in, for example, in power and things that would, once the energy was there, then the industry would follow. Yeah. Instead of what would it take to invest in environmental friendly power production and then what would follow that? So what would it take to get land during the years up? So. Power country. But it remains sort of within a piece of paper. I think one, you know, that is the question we're practically alive on here. Because the party is, most of these environment friendly resources of energy is a little question. Which is why even developed countries are now in the environment stage of their implementation. And if they are very cost-efficient of course, producing boosts and services by human resources, linear sources of energy. At the end of the day, we are going to produce more services at higher cost. And that will mean selling at the observant prices and that will mean limiting your market. And the audience are always concerned about minimizing the cost. And the one to take capital, of course, which is likely in developing country. Most of our entrepreneurs struggle to acquire the capital to invest in this industry. Nobody else is just making, but they learn a lot of investment in these refinery levels. And the English may be up to snake index. And it's still the companies not functionally. And it will also take the will of the government. Most of the detects some knowledge to even appreciate what the impact of industrialization is on the environment. And unfortunately, most of our leaders in developing countries even cannot articulate or cannot appreciate this impact. Because the flooding she was talking about affects the ordinary people who would be on the banks of the Niger and the Burma rivers. It doesn't affect the well-to-do or the hiding place for the Christians in Nigeria. All they could see is like the impacts of the flood or the NTAs that are directly limited. And after one or two weeks of sensationalization like the news media, it goes on. So we need leaders who really appreciate the needs if we deserve and conserve our environment. And we also need the capital. And above all, we also need the investment in the science and economic to explain our energies. And most of the investments in education in Nigeria we are still lagging in terms of science technology and those areas that we need to be causing. Otherwise we have vast kind of wind and sunlight energy to take from. But the means and the capabilities, technological capabilities to come up with the right equipment for that is lagging. And in that area, we need support from developed countries in this large countries. Thank you. Sorry. It's a information. I think other sources of energy we have gone and it's not like we don't have to pay a share of our energy. What I'm saying, I'm saying from finding from the research I conducted, what I do. Honestly speaking, what makes all good and good is our option. We have energy commission. It's an agency, it's a British primary for this under minister of science and technology. And the people who headed the agency, I don't know if it's a science or not. It's a professor in that field. He was a former vice chancellor. He has the know-how of how this renewable energy can be generated. But that agency has become a funding by where the sources are being siphoned by people in power. But you find out each and every year, a billion of mirror are being budgeted for the agency. Then they went away to other countries to receive or to request coordination which it has been given to them. But unfortunately, they are not making money. In fact, the major disease that is affecting Nigeria is corruption. Honestly speaking, and corruption has to do with poor leadership. We don't have leaders. If you elected into the office of governor today, tomorrow you become a multibillionaire. That's just how. It's not possible in other countries. But in Nigeria, it's very much possible after people will be heading you. You are now the most important person in your society. Professor Morilas, you know that. Yeah. Yeah. I knew that. You are in the public. Yeah, so corruption is a major problem. Honestly speaking, it's not that we don't have capacity or capability of using other sources. I can remember when Umar Mousairaidua was president, there was an attempt in Cassina, that turbine, we call it a turbine farm, whereby hundreds of thousands were destroyed. But by the time he died, that was the end of the project. Thank you. Yeah, so I read it off to about a month ago at the University and how they had planned to implementation their energy supply to run agricultural ways. So it's just going to basically come to that. It's like a possible precedent of citizenship. Let's see whether that's implemented. It was enough in five years ago. I'm not sure about it. But I agree that I think it's all going to be. Great to never walk. It was on my university platform. There was a visa on that. So it was going to be me, you know. Yeah, I can say that. And that's what we're seeing for a period of time. Yeah, but thank you so much. OK, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Just to say that the event was recorded. Therefore, if some of your friends or family hasn't had a chance to see it, it's going to be posted online in the next few days. So yeah, so we'll keep sharing it. We're going to make it today, but we have the audience here. And then we put it online. Thank you so much. We'll do it online. And then after the visa, it's going to be enough. And just to say, yes, the next week, we have our second event, it's fairly early. I'll see you at the same place next Monday. It's going to be on the music performance day. I don't want to thank you much. But yes, so thank you so much. Thank you, Amir Sokwal. Thank you so much. Thank you, Kappan. And we thank you so much for sending you as well. Thank you for the name. Thank you.