 Good evening, everyone. Welcome to tonight's meeting of the Montpelier City Council. The first item of business is to review the agenda, which I thought I had in front of me, but it seems to have been this close. Okay, so I know there are some, well, one of the items I've discussed is city manager review, which is scheduled for the end of this meeting. I'm going to suggest that we try and reschedule that, but I know there's been some division that may have a scheduling challenge. So maybe start, well, first we can suggest that to what people think. We need to do something by March 1st, right? The current contract, yes. Yes, yes. And Bill, you said you were out. Okay, next week. I'm not hearing people. I'm sorry. I don't know if it's the mics or where they're at. We can do the scheduling at the end of the meeting. Okay, so we're all right with putting that one off. As long as we can all find out. I'm sure we can find a time. Okay, any other changes to the agenda? If not, without objection we'll consider the agenda approved. Next item is general business and appearances. It's an opportunity for anyone who's here on something that's not on our agenda to raise that. If we get to something that you are interested in, you can have a call and just raise your hand. Happy to hear from you. Okay, consent agenda. I guess we'll need to pull the minutes because there's apparently a typo on it that I honestly can't find. So we'll figure it out for next time. Move to approve the consent agenda. Less item A. Seconds. Any discussion? None. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay, Conservation Commission. We have actually two groups that we need to appoint new members to. Conservation Commission and the Planning Commission. Rosie, I know you had emailed me and I can't remember which one you sent. I'm going to recuse myself from the Conservation Commission because one of the applicants serves above me and I'm surprised you're involved with the Association. Okay, thank you. So we'll take that one up first. Conservation Commission appointments and we are fortunate to have lots, well, challenging for us, but fortunate, I guess for the city, lots of great applicants. So anyone want, and so we typically would hear from people who have expressed an interest. So if you're one of those people, come up to the mic if you would and introduce yourself and tell us about your interest in serving on the Conservation Commission. Welcome. You have to pull that down. Okay. I don't have to lean over it. Okay. Hi, I'm Brenna Toman. We met last year. I've been an alternate on the commission since October 2016 and I'm really excited that there's four-year positions opening up. So that's what I'm applying for. I guess I'm really excited to continue some of the work that I've started on the commission. One of those is the social media and outreach with the commission. We didn't have a Facebook or anything. So I started that up. Really like to keep that going and broaden the scope of that. Also, I've been working on restarting the Conservation Fund, which is that little pool of money that we've got sitting on and starting to plan for the 2018 BioBlitz with the Nature Center. So that's what I'm looking forward to. And that's it. Thanks. Great. Thank you. Do we have any other applicants? Yes. Hello. Hi. It's a little bit short for me. Maybe you can tilt it up and help a little bit. Yeah, that should do it. You can sit. My name is Nick Gianetti. We also met last year in October. I serve as an alternate role currently on the Conservation Commission, but I was also excited to see a full-time position up for appointment because as Brenna was alluding to, you've done a lot of great things in the past year. And I feel like the Conservation Commission is really rolling now because we have a lot of new faces and a lot of participation. One of the projects that I'm having is kind of like our stormwater project. And I'm working with the Friends of the Winnowsky and Public Works Department to hopefully complete some of those items on the stormwater master plan that were identified by Stone Environmental. So we've been reaching out to a few private property owners. So hopefully we can do some direct implementation like building some rain gardens and also doing some outreach to some of the local folks that hopefully maybe take some of that water out of our combined sewer system. Yeah, that's it. Any questions for Nick? I forgot to ask that about Brenna as well. No? Okay. Thank you, Nick. Okay. Who's next? Yes. Hi. I'm Katie Michaels. I am a new member of the Montpelier community. I moved here in September and I'm interested in serving on the Conservation Commission in large part to get to know this place better and to be a more active member and to be able to give back to Montpelier. And I feel like getting to know the natural areas here has helped me make a home here. So I'd love to be part of them and help make them beautiful. And I work for the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board. So I have a professional interest in land use. And prior to that, I worked for the High Meadows Fund where I had a lot of experience working in land use resilience. So I would bring those experiences to the vote. And I'm not sure if this is appropriate. But I'm also a good friend of Shelby Perry who I know has applied to the Conservation Commission. And I just wanted to put a pitch in for her as well. She is an incredible naturalist and she's the sort of person who you take a hike with her. And it's like a three hour hike to go two miles because she's just very curious about all the things she sees. So I just wanted to speak on her behalf as well. Well, I'm glad you did. Thank you. Okay. Who is next? I'm Jamie Bates. And so I've been participating as a member of the public for the Montpellier Conservation Commission. And I first heard about it from Nick and Brenna. And I was just curious to know about the commission. And after going to those meetings, I realized it was something that I really wanted to be a part of. I have been working on a logo for Montpellier Conservation Commission. Because as was mentioned before, it's easier than I used to public speaking a whole lot. So with the BioBlitz coming up, we thought it would be a good opportunity to have a logo out there for the Montpellier Conservation Commission. But I also have a lot of other interests within nature and projecting and conserving what Montpellier has to offer. So I'm just really excited to possibly participate in the Montpellier. Thank you, Jamie. I'm Glenny Sewell. You all saw me here, I believe, more than a year ago. So we've been applying for the alternate. To be very honest, a lot more time has opened up on my hands. The time I went in as an alternate, time closed in around me with other institutions. Right now I'm just with Norwich at the moment. And I do a little work with CCB, but I'm not with Neckie anymore. I don't mind if it's one of the seats or an alternate, to be very honest. I still want to keep my time in and push to stay on at least stay on that commission until I can give a great deal more time of myself. It's one of those things where I want to do something. Since the time has opened up, I still want to be able to give it to someone. I don't like time sitting open doing absolutely nothing, twiddling my thumbs and watching YouTube. That's not happening. So it can be Norwich and the M Conservation Commission, however it goes. Thank you, Glenny. Anyone else? My name is Michael Pozorchak. I submitted the cover letter, which explains my background of natural resources, attorney work, I've done a number of land trusts, ran a nonprofit in the western states, been a wildland firefighter. So public interest is what I'm excited about and anything I can contribute or answer any questions. I'm happy to do so. Thank you, Michael. Anyone else? Okay. Do we have much to go to executive session to discuss these applications? So moved. Second. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. We will be back shortly. Okay. We all set to reconvene. Move to come out of the executive session. Second. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. If I could get everyone's attention, we're back in session. Ann, did you want to make a motion? Yeah. So I would move that to the four-year seats we appoint. Brenna Toman, Nick Gianetti, Emily Byrne, and Jamie Bates. And to the two alternate seats, we appoint Michael Lozorecek and Katie Michaels. Is there a discussion? Just now time to say this. Anyone who hasn't been nominated, we really want your participation. We just have only so many slots, so don't be discouraged. John, yeah. Sure, please. Hi, I'm John Jose. I'm the vice chair of the conservation commission, and I just want to add to what Donna said. We're a very open, inclusive, informal group, and we really encourage people to come and sit around the table with us and discuss conservation issues in the city. As Jamie indicated, that's how she got started with us as a member of the public. The other thing I want to mention too, which is important, is we're in the process. We have set forth a very ambitious agenda for ourselves based on a visioning process we went through. And to accomplish everything we want to accomplish, we're actually in the process of forming subcommittees. And my understanding is that you do not need necessarily to be an alternate or a sitting member on the commission to participate in those committees. So regardless of whether or not you were selected for an alternative seat or a standing seat on the commission, if you're interested, that's definitely an opportunity for you to be involved with the conservation commission and be more than welcome you. And tomorrow night happens to be our regular monthly meeting. So you're more than welcome to join us right here, council chambers. Great. Thank you, Jeff. I know I say this every time, but it's just always is amazing the number and quality of applicants that we get for these boards and commissions. I think it's a real testament to Montpelier that we have residents who volunteer and are so committed to the community. So thank you all for both serving and all of you who have applied. Really is appreciated. Any further discussion? Yeah, Justin. I would just add that there's a lot of exciting things going on in this commission right now. We heard a little bit about the stormwater projects and specifically the outreach by the high school sounds super exciting to kind of putting a little bit more public face and letting people know what we're doing to in terms of planting or stormwater control there and other sites. And also this bio blitz at the North Branch Nature Center that's coming up. So it'll be incumbent upon everyone who's new to this committee to make sure you go to those meetings and help keep these projects moving forward. Okay, there's no further discussion. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Close. Okay. So next round is a planning commission appointments. Okay. Yes. Sorry. I was going to call up our agenda, but go ahead please. If you could introduce yourself. Hi. My name is Ariane Cassano and I'm interested in serving on the planning commission just, you know, generally as most people have said Montpelier is a great community. And I'm just interested in getting more involved. I have a master's degree in planning. So I wanted to bring back some of those more technical skills and contribute them to the planning commission. And also in my work at the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board, I work with affordable housing developers. So I have a sense of, you know, some of the development challenges. You know, I reviewed the French Walk project that's going in above Obachan's this summer. So I bring that expertise as well. And I'm just interested in, you know, technical aspects of how you can continue to create vibrant, maintain and create vibrant communities. And I have a four year old daughter who will be starting kindergarten soon. So I'm definitely invested in the long term viability and success model here. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Hi everyone. I'm Stephanie Smith. I live over on Charles Street. I'm happy to be in front of you once again when there are actual vacancies on the planning commission. So I'm hopeful that I'll be appointed this round. I've been, I've been attending the planning commission meetings the last several of them. And it's been a really good opportunity to see what the planning commission is doing and get a better sense of what the, what the plan is going forward for the next couple of years. And I'm, and to see how the committee works and how they function. So that's, that's been really good. I'm particularly excited about a new city plan and starting to put that together. I'm, I used to work at the Central Vermont Regional Planning Commission and I worked with other municipalities to develop their plans. And I'd like to have a more active role in the place where I live in, in that process. And I'm, I have a master's degree in planning. I'm a planner. I work for the state of Vermont. I have a lot of experience in planning and I'm excited to bring that to the table in the place that I live. So thank you guys for considering me. I appreciate it. Thank you, Stephanie. I'm Paul Carnahan. I live on Savings Street. Really enjoy living in Montpelier and want to see it continue as a great, great community to raise families or to live as, as individuals. And I'd like to be on the planning commission to, to help move that forward. I don't see any big changes. I think I'm interested in working on the master plan. I think the master plan could use a lot of focus right now. It's a very unwieldy document. And I think that I could bring some, some, some work to that to, to try to focus it a little bit on exactly what the, the priorities of the, of the committee of the commission and the community are. And I'd like to, you know, bring some, some balance to the, to the community in terms of growth and preserving the things that we like about, about Montpelier. I think there's a lot of things that, that are exciting about Montpelier that we can move, move forward. I've been involved in the Montpelier live downtown committee, design committee for, for a while. And I think we've done a lot of exciting things to move Montpelier forward in that regard. And I'd like to continue on the planning commission. Thank you, Paul. Anyone else? Okay. Do we have a motion to go into executive session? So moved. Second. favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. That's all right. So do we have a motion to come back into executive session? So moved. Second. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. Dan. I guess I would just observe that this was a really tough decision. And for those very well qualified people who we don't appoint, there may be some opportunities. Coming up very soon. So depending on how the charter change goes, we'll determine that timing. But right. So we, I would move that we appoint Stephanie Smith and Ariane Kassam to the planning commission. Second. Is there a discussion? None. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Bill, could you just describe that charter change that I think it'd be helpful for people to know that we have made a charter change that's relevant to the people who have both applied and been appointed to the planning commission? One of the problems we have with our current setup with both the design development review board and the planning commission is that the term lengths are specified but not the actual terms. If somebody leaves midterm, you can't fill out an existing term. You have to appoint someone new for the whole three years or two years. So we've proposed a charter change that appoints all of the planning commissioners, I believe, on May 1st and all of the DR people on October 1st. And then they have set terms. And if somebody leaves in the middle, then we just fill out the unexpired term. So if that passes and is in effect by May 1st, we'll probably have to re-appoint all of the planning commission members four to two-year terms and three to one-year terms, presumably. So just FYI, there could be some existing members may choose to step down at that time. There could be another process. Again, we really appreciate everyone applying and we want you to reach out and attend and participate. Every committee is open. Commissions, likewise, are open to having you participate even if you can't vote on certain things. Yes, I would also add as Mrs. Smith's acceptance is evidence of persistence pays off here. And we really certainly consider people's willingness to start attending meetings beforehand to be involved and get brought up to speed prior to appointments. Additionally, at least one member of that is still on the planning commission I know has expressed interest in getting through our zoning and master plan process and then we'll potentially be stepping away. Stay tuned. May, mid-summer, August, probably latest. There'll be several new seats opening up on this commission. And again, thanks for everyone who's both, well, everyone is applied and everyone is serving on the commission. Thank you. Okay. So we will be moving on. Oh, we need to vote. We have... No, I... We voted you. We voted this time. I got it. All right. Item seven on our agenda dog ordinance. Second reading. I'm Sue Allen. I'm the assistant city manager. Do we want to go around and just... Bob Gallans. I'm the health officer and fire chief. I'm Neil Martel. I'm the captain of the department. D. Vaughnberg, director of the Montpelier Community Justice Center. Welcome, everyone. And I'll just briefly remind you that this is second reading of an ordinance that you've already looked at once. It was requested that the first reading be visited by the Vermont League of Cities and Towns to assure that it was a civil process and not a criminal process and to tighten the language to look around at what other communities had done. So that's what the delay has been to bring you a second reading. This doesn't change much other than tighten up what we had a little bit and clarify things. It does the highlights. It requires the dogs to be on a leash, on a city street, a sidewalk, or a recreation path. It clarifies what constitutes running at large. It tightens some of the definitions. The League did that. For example, dangerous dog and who constitutes an owner of a dog to include dog sitters, for example. It makes it clear that this is a civil offense and it encourages violators to participate in the Montpellier Community Justice Center process. If you want to appeal, there is an appeals process through the Judicial Bureau and it spells that out. It also reconstitutes the Animal Control Committee, which just hadn't been meeting and needs to be reappointed and at some point will bring that back to the Council for approval. They will handle the most serious offenses under this and it spells out the fines. So we're here to take any questions you have as you consider second reading. Okay. Vanis, welcome. Are you going to go ahead and make some comment? Okay. Okay. Okay, great. Okay, firstly, I just wanted to tell you that there's a real improvement to this ordinance, especially the calculation of offenses and defining violations as civil offenses. So that's really great. I did email all of you trying to argue the point that this is really a completely different document from the document that was read on August 23rd. So it's really a first read. I would argue that this is a first reading of a document that is 11 pages as opposed to five. It has eight new definitions. It's a lot that's different in it. And then I would, and it's complicated. It's confusing in a lot of places. And I would argue that this needs to be a first reading and allow people who are concerned with this issue and are concerned with the ordinance be able to comment and have a second reading on this. Other comments? I'm sorry. So that's what I would like to ask. Is that possible at all? Why don't we go ahead and we're going to go through this and see what people think. And then we'll make a decision on that once we finish tonight. We're going to go through and page by page. No, but we'll hear comments from you and then the staff and the council members will make all those questions. And then I think the end of our discussion. I also have some changes, but I'm not terribly significant that I'd like to pass out. So when I go through this, you can look at it. Okay, sure. And understand. Having now been through it. Thank you. I have my sympathy. Thank you. Do you have any worries? First things, that I would like to talk about in the running at large category, we would like that to be a number of people. We'd like to include, like to exempt the area where, a public area where dogs are allowed to be offered. The bike and recreation path has really caused a lot of confusion. I have four or five emails asking what does that mean? How do you define bike recreation path? Is that the one on page eight? And about running at large, that where that starts? It's eight, two, oh, seven. And Donna, just as a process question, you're working off the red, purple, green version. Yes, the version that we're on. That's the one. Running at large is 12. It's number 12. Page four. So my, our suggestion is on 12B, clearly under the verbal or nonverbal control and inside of the owner who has a leash in their possession or in a public space where dogs are permitted to be off leash. And if, I mean, we have said that we were going to, this was not going to, I don't know what I want to say here. But this is, that's the way a public park is at this point under their code of conduct. So I'd like to propose that change. I'm sorry, so I'm sure, part of this hard to fog is the double negative. Running at large is dog off the premises and not clearly under the verbal or group. And not on a leash if on a city street? Not on a city street. Or bike recreation path? Not, not on a city street. So I guess that means, on a city street they are, right. They need a leash. Okay. I hear you though on the confusing part about like, if you're on a bike or recreation path, the intent was yes. Intent was yes. As I understand the confusion is that they, some people think paths in Hubbard Park and other places are also recreation paths. There's some confusion as to what, what that means. And so there was some, there was actually some question about simply making clear that Maryland mode it's in some language about, this definition doesn't apply to Hubbard Park. But also I don't know if you saw, but also you had a email from John. He was also supporting the same language. Right. And probably nobody got to see it. I guess it came out early after. Yesterday. I mean however you wanted to find it, that this definition shall not apply to Hubbard Park where dogs are allowed to be off the leash. It's in compliance with the Hubbard Park chain and for the conduct. Well, how many, how many proposals do you have? I'd like to, I want to, this is one that's very prominent. A lot of people have talked about this. And I have also the fines I believe people have also been concerned about how high the fines are. So I'd like to talk about that. And the appeal process, which is not really very clearly spelled out in this. Okay. So why don't we just start working through our way through those. Justin. Mr. Mayor, I would just comment that Mrs. Riegel certainly has taken opportunity to speak to us multiple times, both prior and during first reading. So I welcome to engage in this process. The document in front of us, I think is a reflection of previous attempts to run this through leagues of cities and towns and come up with a document that will ensure that our community is well served by a reasonable level of enforcement for dogs and specifically dogs. So I guess I would just remind council that we have been through this and this is our best attempt at meeting everyone's needs. And while we understand that certain individuals in the community may not want to see any level of leash enforcement or fines associated with that, I think we're trying to find a balance that serves everyone here. Okay. Thanks for that reminder. Okay. So Rosie, did you have a suggestion? Well, I don't mind clarifying that this definition that the park commissions policies apply in Hubbard Park and not this definition. I don't want to go so far as to put in our regulation that what the park commissions regulations are, because those could potentially change in the future and I don't want to have those in regulation. Exactly. That's why I suggested a public space where dogs are permitted off leash. So I don't... I can understand how it would be confusing to somebody and I don't mind making a minor clarification like that. I just don't want to go as far as to say anything further about whether or not they're required. Any objection to that change? Okay. Okay. Dan, it's really... Okay. Under the authority in this new document, I think you need to include 29 DSA 1974 A which deals with appeals from the traditional bureau. I'm sorry. Before we go on, you guys, if there's any objection to that part, I am a little wary about striking the part when not on a city street sidewalk. I don't think there was any suggestion about that. Okay. I think where I interpreted Council Member Kruger's comment was that the language that was suggested would say something like, this definition shall not be applied to Hubbard Park if dogs are in compliance with Hubbard Park canine code of conduct as promulgated. So it doesn't say where they're allowed to be off leash just as if they're consistent with the code of conduct. Because then if they're out of compliance, it's after. It would apply. So we're not necessarily... So we're adopting the code of conduct by reference and if they change that then... Okay. Okay. We're staying there. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. Sorry to interrupts. Okay. So onto the monetary penalties. They are extremely high. And if you look at like the dog license penalties, they're sort of outrageous. And it seems to me that... Are you looking at page... Is this page 8 of the... The licensing? The licensing? The second warning is 100. The third is 2. The fourth is 500. For the licensing? Yes. Yeah. So I would like to just offer this, that failure to license fees being set so high are likely to discourage compliance. And I'm asking why don't we try to incentivize compliance. License fees could be discounted in recognition of practices that demonstrate responsible ownership. In no case will a discounting the cost of the license below a base established. Discounts could be given for... This is important because all of this is about, you know, education and communication. So a discount could be given for completion for an AKC Canine Good Citizen course, proof of an obedience title awarded by an organization, permanent identification of the job by microchip, membership in an obedience club, multiple year licenses tied to a three-year vaccination. It's not now a vaccination for three years after the initial run. So I think that these kinds of things that, you know, that distinguish between responsible and irresponsible pet owners and that's what we want to create. We don't need to beat people up. So for the dog licensing thing, I would suggest something that really encourages people to participate and to be better or responsible owners. Yes. Just when I asked the city clerk, what is the state level of dog licensing or plus five on that? Yeah, it's $10 for plus five on that and included in the budget was to add another three. You want to do that? Yeah, I would like, you know, penalties for not licensing and you also might want to give a break to financial staff who put the license because everybody's benefited to have a dog license microchip. Okay, what else do you have? Okay. So let me go on to the, let me go on to the enforcement, which is eight, two or six. Let's go back to the dangerous, the definition for dangerous, which is two, it is eight, two or two, number two. Danger shall mean any dog regardless of breed, breeding, type or appearance. I don't know why that was taken out. I guess that's because we want to have, we don't want to have breed-specific laws and that's a thing that has been, you know, we've been something that various community states are doing not to have, not to make any kind of breed distinction. So dangerous. Then it inflicts a serious injury on or kills a domestic animal and I would say that we use the definition instead of serious injury on severe injury, which is, which is used and it has a specific definition for it and it was in the original in the first, in the ordinance, it's in effect now because I think this becomes, it's subjective. I'd like to have a very distinct, a very distinct, and I can give you this to fill the dangers. We do the definition for dangerous, which is number ten, six. Dangerous is two to potentially, number two. Yeah, number two. Eight, two oh two, eight, two oh two, number two. Dangerous is... So, Dennis, where are we here? I'm trying to keep this... I think it's on what it is. Eight dash two zero. Eight two oh two and it's number two. Danger shall mean any dog, regardless of breeding type or appearance, who went on to provoke, inflicts a, I would say, severe injury, serious injury on, or kills a domestic animal, or inflicts an injury on a person that requires medical attention, or C, inflicts serious, severe injury on, or kills a human being. Severe injury meaning any physical injury to a human being that results in muscle tears or disfiguring, lacerations, or requires multiple sutures or corrective cosmetic surgery. That's used in Florida, California, Washington, North Carolina, Maryland, Pennsylvania, association of pet dog owners that is something that has been thought to be a better definition of serious injury. Okay. What's next? What do you have? All right. Continuing on, under these definitions, we will not apply if the dog was protecting or defending itself. Was in reaction to the disease, please include disease, pain, or an injury, protecting itself its offspring, another domestic animal, or a person protecting its owner's property from attack or assault, et cetera, et cetera, or the dog was engaged in, the person attacked, threatened by the dog was engaged in teasing, tormenting, battering, assaulting, and then please add, or has in the past been observed or reported to have tormented abuse or assaulted the dog or was committing or attempting to commit a crime. I don't know if this is useful. Is this useful at all? I feel like I can give this to you in writing. It would be more helpful in writing for sure. It's hard to follow when you're reading it. This is what you've given us, right? Those were some concerns I had. We're not going through them one by one. I guess what I'm... I mean, I'm happy to have you present these, and then what I'm going to say, any city council wants to propose them, make these changes, feel free to do that. We're not going to take a vote on every one of your proposals, but if somebody wants to make a motion either now while you're raising one at the end, we'll do that. I'm just mostly cognizant of the time that Justin says, well, not just tonight, but we're going to make a motion. And, frankly, just the level work we have to do tonight. So I just want to get through this in a reasonable... Give you an opportunity to present your concerns, but also to do that in an expeditious way. Okay, well, then the enforcement... Dan, just to reassure you, we've done a lot of wordsmithing with the committee. We went to the league for more. And if we find over time, and really in a month, two months, we can go back and do edits. We can do changes. So if you don't have some language exactly the way you want it to be, it doesn't mean we can't get it there. Okay, so under the enforcement, this is the question I have, is any violation of the ordinance shall be a civil matter which may be enforced from our traditional bureau or in Washington County Superior Court to the election of the Chief of Police or Enforcement Officer? What does that mean? How does that work? So by moving this to a civil venue, we would issue what is known as municipal civil violation for these types of infractions. Or you could, you would be given what is known as a summons. It's not a criminal. It's a civil ticket to a period. It's very similar to what a traffic ticket is. Exactly. It's heard by a hearing officer. The hearing officer would hear the dog owners side of the story and the law enforcement officer or a representative. The hearing officer would be the hearing officer at the judicial bureau? Yes. Okay. Yes. And then who, and then the police officer or the enforcement officer is there like the, like the, Yeah, it's the same as what we did with the municipal. Okay. The traffic tickets we present. If I was the issuing officer, I would go. If it was another officer, Right. They would present the facts of what they do. Right. The constitution violation. The hearing officer would hear from both sides and make a fine. Okay. What does this mean? At the election, at the election of the chief of police or enforcement officer in addition to. They may choose not to bring it to court. Right. Right. So, so the thought process that we put into this is. What's that? Yeah. We're wanting to be a restorative community and utilizing Yvonne's resources. Our first attempt would be to say to the dog owner, are you willing to participate in the restorative process? Uh-huh. If they are, that would be the first mechanism that we would use. They would have that choice. If they said, no, I don't want to, then the fallback would be we would issue this municipal civil violation ticket and they could go before hearing officer and state, you know, their reasons why they, or they could just say the waiver fine. Or they could pay the waiver fine, mail it in and be. All right. So you would, so all right, so the enforcement officer would first ask if you wanted to go through a restorative justice process. Right. But, and both people, both the transgressor and the injured party would have to agree to that, correct? Um, well, in particular, I mean, we're dealing with the dog owner. So I mean, that dog owner would have to be willing to participate. As, and the injured party. Um, if there is an injured party. I mean, that would be a, be a part of the fulfillment of the process of the difficult restorative process is that the victim would have input in that process. Well, if there's no victim, they don't, there's nothing to compel or no reason to compel an effective person to participate, but we always invite them to, if you want to. What if there's no victim? If the dog's money is large. The person, if the person, if the person wants to participate in the restorative process, they would meet with our restorative justice panel, have the conversation and then together create a, an agreement about how to make things better. Okay. So if you would do that with the injured person or if there is no injured person, either way, you would do that. Is restitution part of that? If, if there is restitution, if, if there have been material damages, then in order to complete the restorative process, the dog owner would need to take care of those financial damages as was taught about in the green team. Okay. But they don't, but nobody has to go through that process if they don't want to. Okay. So that's not very clear here. They can contest it. You can contest it. You can have a hearing officer. You can just admit it, pay the fine. You can pay the waiver fine and not contest it at all, but you can go to restorative justice. Is there just, is the restorative justice have, do you work on, do you, does restorative justice work on civil cases? Since when? Last generation. Dennis, I'm going to jump in because I know you need to get these answered, but I, we're just not going to be able to use the entire city council public time. So how should we, how should we go through this? I have also questions that people have sent to me asking, you know, asking the answered. I feel like we're being filibustered. I mean, this process, I know there's been a, I feel like this is a memo. Because I know that this has been a public process. This has been, this has been gone. No, I started, I was involved in this years ago, and I know that there's been years since then of work that's gone into this ordinance. So, ruining my life. Well, we don't want that. But we also want to make sure we don't, we adjourn before midnight tonight. So can we, can we make this first reading and then have a second reading? Well, how many amendments are you proposing? How many more? I thought there was just a handful, but it sounds like there's more. There's some more. I'm saying thank you Donna for that, because we, you know, like language then, we'll just remove. But there's some, you know, So how many proposed changes do you have for us today? Okay, so there's the judicial, there's the judicial bureau, the appeal process within the judicial bureau. There's the difference between the Animal Control Committee and the City Council. So in this document, they seem to be overlapping, not clear whose job is what. I mean, my understanding would be that the Animal Control Committee is a legislative body that the City Council has created. Is that correct? Is that what that would be? Yes, with some definition. Was that judicial through the ordinance? Some members on the committee are prescribed. We know that. Oh, right. We know that. But so they have, that standing that is like the legislative body. Like in statute law, that would be the legislative body, the Animal Control Committee, which is being made from the City Council is creating an Animal Control Committee. So they have like a ministerial role. Is that correct? I don't know how to answer that. Okay. So Dan said, what I'm going to ask you to do is clearly and succinctly is you can make suggestions to the Council as to what changes you would like on the ordinance. We will consider those and then we need to make a decision about the proposal before us. So I'm going to give you, you know, another 5, 10 minutes and if you could do that and then we're going to need to make a vote on the proposal. This is not a new issue. This has been around for years. But we need to make decisions and move on. This is all very new stuff here that we haven't considered and the result of these new conditions, these new ordinances. With all due respect, actually these were presented three weeks ago and was postponed in part because of the hour and in part because of your request. And most of the changes that were made were actually due to your request. I feel like a lot of the questions you're asking, we've gone through before. You wanted clarity about the civil procedure, which is really the only substantive change. I mean, I'm probably way out of bounds here as an administrative officer as opposed to policy person, but we've had, you've been actively involved and I don't understand if you had this many comments why you couldn't have sent them to us even yesterday. It would have been helpful, I think. So, I mean, the council will do what they want. My two cents is one, someone who's been involved in this with you for a long period of time. I feel like we've tried to accommodate all of your concerns. But they're not just my concerns. I understand, but you've voiced them. Right. Okay, so we're going to take the next five to 10 minutes and I'm going to ask you to bring your comments within this. So, I'd like to see the appeal process spelled out in this. Do you have a proposal? Of course. I can write it up. I suppose. It's unclear. It's unclear how we make it, how, you know, how does it go to, how do you make an appeal to the superior court? If you don't like the hearing. Officers. We're then here into the rules and procedures. However, same way you appeal a parking ticket. I don't know how that works, but there's clearly a process that that one's outside of the city's appeal process. Okay, so do we noted that, that you don't take objection to the lack of clarity in the appeal process? Is that your concern? Right. I take objection to the lack of clarity in the appeal process. Okay. For, and the fines, the fines are way, way too high. In, say like in Burlington, what they do, they put all the fines, the fines are the same for any violation. First, second, third offense. And they go from the first, first one is like $100 with the waiver fee. You know, we're talking about $450, $300. And I don't know that really there's any basis for that. Is there? You're concerned? This is not a, we're not going to debate this, but I understand you're raising that concern. What else, what are your, what other issues do you have? Here's some questions from some other citizens. Rules for playing ball on the state house lawn. Dog river field. I mean, it's like playing ball, high school fields is that, what happens there? Barking in an owner's house, if the owners aren't at work. Is that becoming, is it the dog barks all the time? And inside an owner's house, owner's dog, owner's house. Just pouring in an apartment building, a multi unit building. This is a public process. You're going to raise concerns. We just can't, I'm just not going to do it all night. But if you have concerns that you want to raise, I want to provide you with that opportunity. Well, I can't, I don't have that. I can't do it now. I can't do it in five minutes. So, I give up. Do we have anyone else who is here to talk about the dog ordinance? Okay. Are there any other council questions, comments? We want to make a motion. I just wonder if I need to formalize that change. The bill's language was good. I'd like to just use that. I don't remember what it was. So I'm taking the language proposed by Marilyn Mote and John. I can't see his last name. It's, and just taking out one little clause. It goes under section 802, definition 12. I would say this definition, does not apply to Hubbard Park where dogs are in compliance with the Hubbard Park canine code of conduct as promulgated by the parks commission. So, I moved to insert that language. I was just read by the city manager. So, are you making a full motion to accept this? Oh, I was just making a motion to add that. I guess, I guess I could make a full motion to. Why don't you go ahead? You don't mind? Okay. So, I moved that the city council accept the, sorry, I'm not sure how to formulate this motion. What's that? That's second reading. I moved that the council pass the second reading and adopt the amendments to article two, the dog and animal control ordinance as with the addition, with the amendment just. Articulate. I'll second it. All right. Can you also add the, in the authority, 24 BSA 1974A? In the authority. So, we're in discussion. So, hold on just a second, Marilyn. So, we've got the motions made. Did you second? Okay. So, that's discussion. If you want to raise that as a question, I guess somebody can. If you're adding some language, can you add to the authority for this 24 BSA 1974A? As a council, somebody could offer that if they want to. I'm not comfortable doing that because we've had this so thoroughly legally reviewed and I don't really want to make changes to that. Okay. Is there any further discussion? The only change you might want to consider making is under the park about dog licenses where it says it's $5 above the state fee. We did pass a budget. Well, we haven't passed it. Assuming the budget passes, it assumes that it would be $8 above the state fee. I'd make a motion to amend the pending motion to change the number 5 to 8 as it relates to licensing fees. Second. Second. Discussion? Five to eight. Okay. So, first would be a motion on the vote on the amendment. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? And then next would be the vote on the underlying ordinance. A motion to approve the ordinance. All in favor, please say aye. Mr. Mayor, I have just a little more discussion or comment. Oh, sorry. If that's all right before we take our final roll. Yes, sir. I was again reminded last week when I was out walking in neighborhoods registering voters how important people's pets are to them. Almost every single house that you go to either has a dog or a cat or hamster. People love their pets. There's no doubt about this. These are like members of our family. It's part of our community. And this ordinance that we're about to approve is the culmination of many, many hours of city staff work, resident input and the city council considering this running it through the Vermont League of Cities and Towns. And we know as per the ballot initiative last year that our community has split pretty much down the middle on this in terms of people who would prefer not to see dogs on a leash. So we do certainly take this very, very seriously. I think it's a very important document for me is the best possible balanced approach that we can have at this time. And I just want to echo what councilor Bates said that, you know, if we get into this three months and our police force is coming to us and saying, you know, we are just buried in tickets for this or we have to take another look at this or public health officers saying, you know, we've had this many incidents that we may need to take public safety a little more seriously. I think the future council will do that. Any other comments? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you all. Yeah. We'll take a five minute break. Again, we're going to take up item eight, Black Lives Matter Resolution and a racism discussion. Donna? I think this was you. I invite the superintendent and the high school principal to come forward. Yeah, welcome. Is this your first time here? Yeah. Welcome. Happy Valentine's Day. My wife is thrilled. So I did mail the proposed agenda sheet and the proposed resolution so you've seen it. And this is the attempt for city council to support the Montclair school system, the Montclair High School Racial Justice Alliance and to support the Black Lives Matter flag. And that indeed we have to counter racism and any inequality that exists in our community as well as our schools. And so I would just like you to share your personal experiences and what's been going on at the school. Yeah, so it's about a two-year process of us really waking up to the privilege that we live with in our school system and the implicit biases in the systemic racism. I don't think there's any intention, malintention in our school district, but there was enough vigilance to recognizing the implicit biases and the things that are just a part of our everyday, the way we're doing things on an everyday basis. And thanks to some very brave young leaders, courageous leaders, they've helped us recognize that we have growth to do. And so we have started that work and it's a broad systemic work for us. We have several professional development trainings for the adults, a lot of conversation with the students, and a concentration of effort this month of February. The most visible thing being the raising of the Black Lives Matter or a Black Lives Matter flag that the school board voted to do unanimously after petition or request from the Racial Justice Alliance of our students. You want to add Mandy? I'm sorry, could you address yourself? Sorry, I might create them a high school principal. My name is Mandean Saw-Blaze. And I'm a sophomore in high school. Welcome. I'm Brian Rick. I'm the superintendent of schools. And to echo what Mike has been saying, it's really important that everyone understand that this work has been going on for two years and that the raising of a flag is not the culmination of the work. It's not the beginning of the work. It's not the end of the work. Our continuous improvement plan has three big goals. One of them is personalization. One of them is proficiency. The other one is equity. So this work that we are doing, honoring the experience of our Black students and admitting humbly that it's systematically different than the experience of our White students. And so this is an effort to admit that we need to do better at being an inclusive community. One of the things I say consistently, whether I'm talking to sophomores in high schools, in our high school, or excuse me, kindergarteners at our elementary schools, that my job is to work with all the adults in our building to make sure that all of our students can feel safe and included. And this is just a way to honor the experience of our Black students. And so we are grateful that City Council is having this conversation because we feel that we don't want to do this alone. This is not work that is only to be undertaken by the schools. This is to be undertaken by our entire community. So we're very buoyed by this conversation taking place at the City Council. Thank you all for being here. I know for me it was just a wonderful thing to watch the emotion of that event. I know it wasn't a culmination, but for the community it really was a centerpiece to, you know, a real statement to watch it in motion and the way the community supported it and then statewide. And then of course even the national attention it's brought has made me really proud to be part of Montpelier to be a leader. And so I'm not me, but being a community that's leading. And so thank you for taking that leadership role and for the students for doing that. I think, you know, for me it was just really eye-opening and made me proud to be part of our community. To add to that, some of the criticisms of this act were that it was somehow anti-police. And I just wanted to speak on behalf of Montpelier police that they were actively involved in this discussion. The school resource officer, the team, supported it and showed up in large numbers on the day of the flag and I think stand with the students and the school all in taking these actions and in doing the work going forward. And so how people outside of our community may view this as one thing, but we all know that people here and the police officers here are on board. And to add to the city manager's comments, we also were very clear and reached out to the Vermont State Police as well. They sent one officer for the ceremony as well. I've been in touch with Lieutenant Gary Scott, who I believe is the director of community and fair policing in Vermont. And he was very, very lauded. He lauded the effort of the students and absolutely understood the nuanced work that we were doing and also was not drawing any distinction that some members outside of this community and the state specifically were drawing when it comes to flying a Black Lives Matter flag. So we were very thoughtful and intentional, Mike McCracken and I, making sure that our law enforcement partners were aware of the context for what we were doing and why this was happening at this time. That round of applause really should go to the students that were involved in bringing this forward, but Dr. Rico, really I applaud yours and the principal's acknowledgement of that and moving that forward. And you, as the mayor stated, really serve as leaders for us too in this, in terms of helping to inspire us to stand together with our public schools. It's so important that our city do that. Also, I was particularly impressed in the letter that you wrote as a parent. I received that before this resolution came to us and specifically how you acknowledged inherent bias and that it's real and we all have it. And to acknowledge that I think is huge and then to start to take steps to address that and correct that so that we have a system that's equitable for everybody. I didn't know if your help would help us better understand how we may, as a city, do better to do that by sharing a couple of specific examples of the changes that you're either considering or already have made to improve your system. Thanks. I'll speak to that for a minute. One of the things is holding up a cultural competency lens to everything you're doing. And for us, that means instruction in our systems and making sure that we're well represented with the different voices and a variety of voices as much as we can. Making sure that we honor this student voice and recognize that our students of color need to be at this table as much as possible and also just actual training. Kathy Johnson is here, I think, who's from CQ Strategies and we attended the leadership team, the leaders' administration at the school, attended conferences with her, workshops with her and we learned a great deal. That was work for us as personal leaders and in our own work and then also holding that lens up to our systems and our decisions that we make. And I would encourage anyone in a leadership position to consider learning from people who are doing this work on a regular basis as part of their career. There's a lot to be gained in that way. And then there's, for us in the school system, it's not as applicable, but there's just content for us to understand ourselves and to expose ourselves to and then also for our students. It's just choices and content that we can make. It's a pretty fundamental decision. One of the really shiny examples of the inclusivity of the statement by the Racial Justice Alliance was that while it is a Black Lives Matter flag, the intent is to have all students feel included. And talking about implicit bias means talking about a lot of privilege. I check a lot of boxes when it comes to privilege from a white, able-bodied, cisgendered, heterosexual, Judeo-Christian male in a position of power. There are not a lot of biases that are attached to me when I walk into a room, but that's not the experience of all of our students. It's probably not the experience of everybody in this room. And so one day in January, Monday the 22nd, we had a workshop of professional development. It included people from outright Vermont talking about issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. It included people talking about disabilities, abilities and disabilities, ones that we can see and ones that we can't. We did have Kathy Johnson from CQ Strategies and so the goal is to have all students feel that they can come to us with whomever they are, whether it's a well-biased, implicit that we have when they show up in our classrooms or not and that they all feel safe and included. So our messaging has been around having conversations with families around what implicit bias and privileges and how especially when Mike and I have had a lot of focus in these conversations on dressing ourselves for lack of a better word, of the privilege that we come to the table with and ensuring that people like Mandy are sitting at the right tables and having the right conversations and that we honor those experiences. I just follow up on that too that on a parallel track without knowing where the school was, the city leadership team also did a four-hour workshop with Kathy Johnson in CQ Strategies about cultural competency earlier this winter just recognizing the same thing, our community is changing and we interact with police, fire, public works, ourselves in offices, our own staff to try to raise our awareness of the same issues. Fascinating that they were at the same place. So how can we get those workshops not only for us as a council but to the community to really make them available to people? Kathy? There you go Kathy. Do you want to just come up and introduce yourself Kathy, if you don't mind? I want to record you. You can hear your phone. Thank you. My name is Kathy Johnson and I was right in front of how have I gone through our education system to this level and the situation of profiteering that looks like modern days lately, all kinds of things so thank you for this opportunity. Thank you Kathy. I wonder if we can make some sort of a link with some of these events on the city website under title, I mean people see it but they don't see it do you know what I mean, so that would be good. Thank you. Something that happened Monday at Rotary we had our regular annual speech contest and there were Montpier High School students who talked and one chose the BLM flag raising behind it and she gave this example she says sometimes when you talk about Black Lives Matter people will say all lives matter which is true and she made this wonderful comparison if you had a neighborhood with 20 houses and one is on fire where are you going to put your attention and when you put your attention on the house that's burning everything you learn about that you can hopefully apply to the other houses so it is very inclusive isn't that an example I just love it it's a very inclusive approach it's never exclusive it's just very touching do we need the resolution read out loud? No I don't think so I'd love to make a comment as well so in addition to raising the Black Lives Matter I think one of the most impactful things for me as a part of so I'm a teacher at the high school so one of the things that I found really moving actually was hearing from the very brave students of the Racial Justice Alliance reflecting back to the teachers on various occasions actually what their experience has been like really bringing really specific examples as to how their experiences has been different than the white students at the school so that has gotten me thinking quite a bit about the city in general obviously if Blacks and students of color at the school are having a systematically different experience at the school then unless they also obviously they're having a different experience in our community as well and how lucky the school is to have such great students who are willing to take that risk and shine a light on those experiences and one of the things that I would love to see us do as a body you know the council is to I mean I know there are a number of groups in the community that work on racial justice issues and I would love to have seek strategies or other cultural competency groups do that work for the council as well to put that on the radar but also just wanted I'd love to start the conversation as to how do we invite groups that are doing racial justice work in our community highlight for us how their experiences are different and what we can be doing about those things I mean I know as a teacher hearing about those experiences has really made me think about my curriculum in new ways and it's been really helpful so and I would love to see us like again as Kathy said we don't know about how that is experienced by people of color in our community or I guess how our city systems are experienced differently by people of color so I just want to put that out there I'd love to start that dialogue Thank you, anyone else? I'm just the secretary up here but my friends all over the country are talking about this so inside the school I mean you all have the students have done a great job I think reminding if I can be blunt reminding white America that not everything is about us and how black and brown communities and groups choose to express their experiences and their concerns is never subject to our approval so thank you. As Justin said the first and highest thanks to the students but I also just want to acknowledge the school board and their risk taking to approve the Flying with Black Lives Matter fight because I know that is effectively their jurisdiction to do that and that was they've caught some flak for that too. Can I make a motion that we adopt the resolution? I don't think we need to it's up to you but I would prefer we do. Okay. On February 1, 2018 a Black Lives Matter flag was raised at Montpellier High School to fly for the month of February. The Montpellier School Board approved the request for the Montpellier High School students of the Racial Justice Alliance to fly raise the flag. The school board stated they are committed to making our schools inclusive to combating institutional racism and to work towards equality for every student. At the flag raising students spoke out about prejudice and racism in our schools and our community. And whereas students have spoke out about prejudice and racism experienced in our schools and our community and whereas Montpellier prides itself in being an inclusive welcoming community and be it resolved that the Montpellier City Council supports the Montpellier Public Schools in their raising of the Black Lives Matter flag be it further resolved that the Montpellier City Council rejects all forms of racism, bigotry and hate and seeks to work together to combat these issues in our community and be it further resolved that the Montpellier City Council is committed to inclusion and equality as a foundation of our community and encourage residents to support this commitment. Signing by the majority of the councils it will signify going forth with the above. Thank you Donna and so take that emotion get motion. I'll second. Any further discussion? I just wanted to mention that while I want us as a council to be really open if people of color or other minorities want to share their experience with us about what it's different how different it is to live in our community how to put that burden on them to express that to us that's a further hardship to put on that community and so it's incumbent on us to do that work ourselves and of course if folks want to share their experience with us that's always open and always welcome but we're not relying on people saying hey this is a problem in order for us to see that that we're seeking that out and that's a great question. Any further discussion? All right. Thank you all very much. If I could just have one of course. I would just like to say thank you to all of you it means a great deal when you're this has been quite an experience for all of us and I'd like to thank the students again for their leadership our experience in the vulnerability that our students with far less privilege than what I've grown up with and lived with experience on a regular basis when you experience that firsthand and some of the hate that goes along with that being lifted up by a community means a great deal to me personally and I just want to thank the people of Montpelier that when there was vulnerability and hate coming at our high school and at our community they stood up with love and strength in their voices and I want to thank this city council and all the people of Montpelier for their solidarity and their support so thank you very much. Thank you. Okay next item is our discussion about the sprinkler ordnance I guess we're on the second reading and when we adjourned we had a motion that was pending by Councillor Olson and I think she wanted to modify that so Jean yes thank you we laid my motion to repeal the current sprinkler ordinance on the table at our most recent meeting and I now move to take it up further I intend to clarify my motion saying it is not my intention to repeal the entire ordinance but to repeal the requirement to sprinkle new one and two family homes okay so with that attraction I would propose that we substitute Jean's motion that she just described for the one that was pending when we last adjourned so just to clarify this would be the amendments that the ordinance that the committee proposed less the section that says one and two family homes okay so that's the pending motion was that seconded it was okay so we're on discussion regarding that motion now were there other process questions that you wanted to address that are relevant at this point in terms of how to proceed okay comments, questions I just wanted to address Ashley councilor Hill was not able to be here tonight for a medical reason but I did check in with her because she had expressed at the last meeting that she was still formulating an opinion and she said that basically she agreed with the proposal that Jean just put on the table that agreed with the amendments that the ordinance committee had proposed but would like to strike the one and two family section so just wanted to pass on those comments on behalf of council thank you all right so we probably have you folks probably want to comment anybody in the council and then the public so I guess in no particular order do you want to go first Bob? I think the staff members would like to make a brief shot at it we will make it brief we'll try to just a reminder because ten or ten ten the U.S. women's hockey team has a very important game tonight versus Canada and that game is live on NSMBC ten o'clock U.S. versus Canada right there you go so we do need to be home by ten the school may have their black lives matter flag but we've got the Olympic flag we have the Olympic flag so I want to talk Chris and I both want to talk about the one and two family peace tonight I handed out some information tonight to everybody most of that came directly from the NFPA and we'll just quickly go through it I don't need to read it all word for word the gist of it is there the NFPA did a survey on the five year period from 2011 to 2016 you can see there there were almost 400,000 home fires 350,000 those didn't have sprinklers I think what stands out in there though is in those fires there were 2,600 civilian fire deaths 13,000 civilian injuries 7.2 billion in direct property damage and 25,600 firefighter injuries at the fire ground in those years and those were just at single family single family home fires sprinklers reduced I went through this last week reduced the risk of dying in a home fire by 80% working smoke detectors alone reduced the risk of dying in a home fire by 50% and in a few minutes Chris is going to talk about working smoke detectors because we're not seeing working smoke detectors sprinklers responsible for 65% reduction in firefighter injuries keeping in mind this is all in one and two family homes sprinklers reduced the average property loss per home by 70% sprinklers reduced civilian fire injuries medical cost by 53% the numbers are there the information is there 2008 underwriters laboratory study found because of the synthetic construction of today's home furnishings larger homes open spaces increased fuel loads that fast fire propagation meaning that from when it first starts it grows into that incipient stage much quicker shorter time to flash over rapid change in fire dynamics shorter escape time shorter time in building collapse and on costs quickly the average cost for sprinkler in Montpelier is about $8,200 those aren't numbers we made up those are real numbers Chris will go through in a few minutes how he came up with those numbers he came up with those using actual permits and if all that isn't enough in safety there's incentives in Montpelier we offer 10% reduction in the municipal portion of your tax obligation on a fully sprinkled property the ISO is an independent insurance organization that does assessments they do they they assess the city of Montpelier we get a rating every 5 years they come in and they do a rating for us they did an assessment report and they found insurance discounts and this is nationwide ranging in 0 to 12% on an average of 7% so you know and then there's the other fact sheets to go with it what I would like to do though is just stop real quickly and we have a video very short put out by the NFBA it's 3 minutes, 3 and a half minutes but it's pretty compelling and I would like everyone to take a look at this see that's not the image that's on the screen it's not the source the device it's not shown on the screen though well it was a really good video it was a demonstration of two identical rooms 10 by 10 built at the laboratory furnished exactly the same same exact furniture, same exact stuff the animals and they lit one on the right on fire it was not sprinkled and you can see how rapidly the fire builds it goes to flash over and then fire department goes in and puts it out the second one is sprinkled and I wish I had the time within a minute to a minute and a half to fire was completely extinguished there was no destruction in the room it's a very good video I wish we had it but we don't can you send us the link? we'll send it out alright so I'm going to let Chris talk a little bit and then I'll finish up with a couple quick things sure so the average cost of sprinklers, chief alluded to it is around $8,200 and that was a sample of 14 fairly recent projects single family homes and the cost of the sprinkler as reported on the certification form that submitted at the end of the project the most expensive sprinkler system of those 14 was $10,850 the least expensive was $7,500 let me see one, two, three, four five five of those sprinkler systems I believe that cost included the cost of a pump and tank because they didn't have an adequate water system the pump and tank had about $2,000 to the cost of a sprinkler system that's kind of where those numbers came from local historical data chief also mentioned working smoke alarms so in the course of my job people will renovate a bathroom smaller project in their home when I'm in their homes I do my very best to take that opportunity to review their smoke alarms to make sure they've got good working smoke alarms and it's surprising to me the number of homes people who are friends and neighbors intelligent professional people go in these homes and the smoke alarms are down, there's wires hanging out of the box where the smoke alarm should be the smoke alarm that if it works would give her a warning to get these people up and out of their houses and I'll ask them where's your smoke alarm, well it was chirping or maybe it needed the battery or it was malfunctioning so we took it down and we were going to put it right back up and a month has passed since that's happened it's frightening to see that so the smoke alarms do provide early warning when they're in place, when they're functioning properly, and they're maintained but that's not what we always find and I'm sure the chief has similar stories from the duty crews going out for various calls and one other thing I'd like to share with you, I have an email from a local builder who has very recently built a house in Montpelier I'll just read it to you my name is Will Shea-Bomb and I'm a general contractor here in town I built my own home last winter on North Street and moved in in March I've recently gone through the process of having to install a sprinkler in my home here are my thoughts would I have installed one if I hadn't been forced to hard to say but now that I have one I feel pretty good knowing that my home is safe from fire and the city water system maintaining adequate pressure I have a challenging driveway that could be potentially tricky for fire trucks at certain times of the year my house is also fairly far away from the street at an uphill incline so there's another reason the sprinkler makes sense in terms of cost to sprinkle my entire house just over 2,000 square feet cost only $6,000 I don't know where the sprinkler costs quotes of $30,000 are coming from the cost of having a sprinkler certainly didn't prohibit me from building my house all in all my thoughts in regards to the ordinance is that it shouldn't be some carpet policy that is black and white it seems that it should be on a case by case basis certain factors such as proximity to other buildings fire vehicle access water pressure town water or well number of dwelling units et cetera et cetera pretty much what I would have said in person that's what I have to add to the discussion all right just a couple of other things just want to clarify one Montpellier is not Montpellier is the only community in Vermont with a residential sprinkle ordinance we are not the town of Hartford as a residential one in two families sprinkle ordinance and it also includes parts of Quiche it's a little different than ours it's enforced through the planning and zoning department and the way they're sprinkler so it's not an ordinance it's in there planning and zoning the way that works is if you build a house in Hartford or Quiche and you're more than 500 feet from the nearest hydrant you have two choices you can either install your own hydrant attached to a 3500 gallon underground tank so you're built in your own you can get a variance from that and the variance is that you sprinkle your home the variance for not putting in your own hydrant is you sprinkle a home there's it's not an ordinance but it's been in effect for 18 years and there are 100 homes the fleet talked to the fire chief this week there's about 100 homes in Norwich and Quiche that are sprinkled so it's not something new to Montpellier so I thought that was important and then I just want to point out on the federal tax reform I think I sent that there but I even highlighted it and if we look down on the cost recovery section it clearly states under new law any sprinkler system installed after September 27 17 in either a commercial or residential structure until December 31st will be you know fully expensed that's what the tax reform says I've been in a number of discussions including today with a gentleman by the name of Jeff Howard Jeff is from the NFPA he's out in Kansas City and he's a sprinkler administrator he cannot you know I'm here to tell you it's nice he cannot say for sure that that is going to cover single family homes so we want to make sure everyone knows that there's a lot of question about it you know as we all know that this tax reform was probably there were probably many promises made throughout the process of putting that together that will never come to fruition it does say residential the NFPA is saying that may not include single family homes that would be a huge undertaking and when it was when that legislation was worded he said they probably didn't realize what they were saying it's still up in the air it may, it may not but tonight I can't sit here and tell you that single family homes will be falling to this because they may not any questions for Bob or Chris okay comments so for the public can I ask something that I so I guess we're just talking about single family homes right now but something that I found extremely helpful during our process was when you discussed how our ordinance was different from the state with regard to public building it's not so we don't have to right now but I would like to have Chris explain that to the rest of the council before we finish tonight just because that was really eliminated I don't know I'm sorry you asked for something on this topic tonight then now would be the time I want to put a place marker in there to talk about public buildings as well here okay other questions Sandy did you want to comment public comments on it can you hear me my name is Sandy that's who I live on Luma Street I've been a resident for 25 years I own a multi-family historic dwelling that's 175 years old and the last one that went in there was about and I'm also an architect I've been practicing in my play for 25 years so I remember when this ordinance was passed the first thing I want to say is that we have an excellent team of first responders and the last thing I would want to do is put some of the additional part that's a really serious concern as well as the welfare of our families a month earlier we also have an excellent building department and when I was working on my own two to kind of two and a half Chris was extremely accommodating and in fact I worked with him and the state to figure out how to make it work in my house I do not have a spring building in my house I want to point out with my professional background personal experience a couple things and they're not meant to in any way downplay the importance of what we already had in place I just want to offer a couple on some of these facets of this issue I find the other measures that are in different ordinances building codes to be extremely useful for saving lives and the most important one is without a doubt smoke detectors right after that carbon monoxide detectors and if they can be hardwired that's really important I am guilty of leaving without batteries for a month or two until I went to the store and I was immediately bugged a few months ago by my hardwire detector down in the basement letting me know that the dust in the basement could cause it to not function anymore and I wasn't going to be able to sleep that until I fixed it I think hardwiring is probably one of the most important things that we can do the other thing is to enforce that there are two assets basically every area of a home where people sleep the desks that did happen in recent history were because a couple got stuffed down in the basement and the stairs out were the only exit and they couldn't get to the stairs bedrooms, windows so forth so these other measures are definitely enhanced by sprinklers but in the balance of things I'd like to just keep in mind that these other measures I think add up to a lot in itself I briefly want to point out that my oldest son nearly died in a college dorm in college in the college of Smolder, Alex freshman year three boys were sleeping in the room one drunk woman somehow ignited his pillow and it's Smolder he threw it off his bed on the floor Smolder for over an hour and they almost died that room happened to not have smoke detectors working and it didn't set off the sprinklers because there wasn't enough heat so thank heavens one of the boys happened to wake up and they threw the pillow out doors and spontaneously combusted the school was never investigated for not having a smoke detector but I just want to point out in that case that would have been what would have saved their lives if they had functioning of the smoke detector I want to point out that the international residential code is a companion code to the national fire gosh NFPA national fire protection administrators and in fact the NFPA in Vermont is dominant over the IRC but IRC is a standard for many states in the United States and it does not require sprinkler systems for single family homes I also want to point out that so I guess I would say from a national point it's a little bit above and beyond what's considered normal care standard of care and I'm sure that the chief statistics are more updates in time but when I talked to my insurance agent a few years ago there was no discount offered for having a sprinkler system and I talked about it and there's so many malfunctions that can happen particularly in Vermont where we get very cold weather that we thought that maybe it was the potential for malfunctions and offset the potential for safe lives and safe furnishings and so forth and in fact one day I was in the insurance agent office and a woman was making a claim for her child again another dorm situation where $1.6 million damage was caused by the sprinklers going off in the dorm due to popcorn and microwaves and it's one point it's a lot of damage that can happen from them but it doesn't mean that they're back it's another facet of the issue I really personally hope that we could encourage more incentives rather than making it a regulation to have a sprinkler system and everything incentive at the town level city level I think having one at the federal level would be fantastic I'd like to see as I approach it that way rather than absolutely required and the reason is there are a lot of reasons but I guess it gets down to economics the cost $10,000 or $8,000 can make a big difference and when a family is deciding where to build trying to balance taxes property taxes frankly, I've heard from a number of people that's one of the reasons why they choose to live outside of their town even though they know that their car expenses will be much higher they won't be going to such a great school but they would choose to live outside of Montpelier it's not a one-time investment of $8,000 is not already spending $2,000 to $3,500 on a house but that is one factor it's a complicated issue and there are many nuances to it so I just wanted to give a couple more perspectives thank you any other comments? Kate? I happen to work in the building industry I've worked with about 50 different builders as a consultant that are based all around the country so I just wanted to throw out that I'm really excited that the council is reconsidering this particular ordinance I think I've read through the amendments and it's complicated it's nuanced and I know the committee has been a lot of time considering all the different pieces of the ordinance so I'm glad that hopefully something is going to change but I guess my suggestion would be to rescind it it falls together and really focus on the incentive side of Sandy by the city but I just don't really understand why arts and any need to have different rules from the rest of the state it's complicated for builders when they're having to go by a different specific to molecular that's different from every other place that they've worked so thank you Kate any comments? to contribute to a series of challenges to the council there's obviously a lot of stated I'm happy to do it probably about six weeks away from having this particular system of choice for me I would rather and so I would just be curious of the representative of Congress considering all the present Thank you other comments? okay so we have a motion pending and just for clarity it was a motion to adopt the proposed changes with the exception of one or two units family units is that right? so it's all encompassing motion but also was adopting the proposed can I ask that we split those I would prefer to vote on whether to remove the one and two family from the amendment and then do a second vote on whether to adopt the amendment whether or not we change it yeah I think that's it Laura I think you can divide the question okay so any further discussion if not we'll hear the first motion first I've got further discussion I just wanted to say that you know on the ordinance committee we did struggle with a lot of these issues that the public has raised and we went through a lot of them and I still stand behind what we presented to you I suspect that the majority of the council is going to vote to repeal the one and two family exemption and that's certainly a policy decision that we can make I personally am not going to vote to support removing one and two family although I will vote to make the total amendments because I one having gone through that process and thought thoroughly about all this but second having a personal experience several weeks ago where a colleague that I worked with previously and his four year old son were killed in a single family house fire as they were trying to escape and that experience just really brought it home to me how these fires can strike anybody and we when you're designing a house you're thinking about your dreams for that house and how you're going to live there and you don't think about these sorts of situations so that was a personal experience that I had recently and I because of that can't vote to support exempting that but pragmatically I share the frustrations that we heard from a contractor that the ordinance as it's currently written is being applied unequally and I think that an ordinance even without the one and two family homes change that we have presented is better than what's on the books so just want to say that thank you Rosy. Other comments? Okay that then I guess I just would add that I mean having heard from a developer who is grateful to have a sprinkler system in his house I think is it's just really interesting that it's not all black and white as to how people feel about this and for people that are spending on the scale of four to eight thousand dollars that seems reasonable I did talk with a friend of mine who is spending thirty thousand dollars on a sprinkler system and that to me seems unreasonable and so my hope I also want to take a rational approach to this process and that one of the things that I think we I would be very interested in seeing is as if I may also I'm glad that we're separating these things out because I'm also not going to support exempting the one in two family homes but I would also vote to pass the amendment if that's what people want but I guess jumping back to my thought here I feel like I think I've lost my train of thought so maybe I'll leave it there right oh right because this amendment does have cost provisions as grounds for exemption my hope is that that works and if it doesn't work then that means the amendment hasn't worked and then it's worth taking up again so I would really like to monitor how the how that how that goes and you know if someone's needing to spend thirty thousand dollars on a sprinkler system I would hope that they would get a variance to not have one so let's keep watching it I've had more conversations about sprinklers than I thought I would ever have in my life because of this and I also want to acknowledge that we might not be done with this and that's okay I'm interested to see how well this works and if it doesn't work let's take it up again for discussion alright very none we're voting on the motion by Councilor Olsen I'm sorry it's like a single two-unit dwellings just for the sake of clarity there's this one section says new one or two family dwellings and that is what we would be structuring everything else is staged I mean I know you're only voting on the first part including the exempt structures is that in part I was thinking that if you take out the one and two family homes the exempt structures do you think it makes sense okay is there a question did you want to raise a question now we're voting you're voting on right now to remove the requirement for sprinkling for one and two family dwellings you want to say something no I think that's right okay all in favor please say aye aye all opposed no 3-2 and that passes all we had four okay so I vote aye 2-4 votes second you can probably tell I've been recovering from the flu here so we're dealing with the now we have the underlying motion which is proposed as proposed by the committee actually it was part of it so we just divided it so part of it original motion right so now on the second the need is stated asking we're not voting it at the same time but it's parliamentary speaking it's two different motions I'm sure it's got the same first and second okay okay all in favor please say aye is there time for discussion on this yes sir because now we're talking generally about the work this committee has done with the removal of single and two family homes I wanted to follow up on a point that Councillor Watson made which is specifically towards the end of the document 201-5a which covers variance and in reading this number three unreasonable cost burden stuck out to me because what does that mean part of what we've struggled with in the building code committee previously was a certain amount of ambiguity over how we should implement the rules that were being for us and so it seems to me it would make sense to provide as much clarity as possible if it's appropriate to help maybe define that and it sounds like there may be more work to be done on this in the future but since we have it open now I'm going to take stab at it in talking to a developer there were a couple things that came up in terms of the cost of these systems the first is adequate water pressure and that is addressed further down number four also in variances and I guess it would help me to have a little bit more information about what is the PSI or the metric by which we're sprinkled systems function properly it's actually volume and not pressure and that's where we and there are some issues in the city where there's not enough volume so we have plenty of pressure in the city there's areas where we don't have enough volume because of old Harrison Avenue was a perfect example until this past summer when they put in the new water line there was not enough volume there and so what is that volume they threw out 3500 gallons or what is the volume entirely on the square footage not just square footage but contents of the building design of the sprinkler system pipe lengths sprinkler systems are hydraulically calculated and they're based on a certain amount of water hitting the floor at all locations and effectively that means you start building the system at the very end you have to supply the right amount of water to the very end of it and backtrack that all the way to the beginning so there's not one number there so if I'm understanding correctly there's both the volume and pressure that's coming out of the city supply line and then the system itself within the house based on square footage, the pipe, etc etc is that more or less but to be clear my understanding is the council has struck the one and two family sprinkler requirement so now we're talking about commercial sprinklers which is an FDA 13 system which requires significantly more water than a single family home if you ask me the question about a single family home I'd say 35 gallons per minute is how much a single family home sprinkler typically requires more depending on the structure kind of where I'm going with this is who will be making that determination of adequate city water supply based on all those variables well when a sprinkler system is designed public works flows flows water from the two hydrants closest to where that sprinkler system is going to be connected and that's going to determine what city water we have supplied at that location that's not saying that's supplied into the building it's what's in the street in front of that property so DPW will conduct tests and then report back in the permitting process as to whether there is sufficient fire suppression on site okay that's helpful I think for whoever on building code ends up trying to help make these rulings in a fair and predictable way and that brings us back to unreasonable cost burden so we've thrown out the number 4,000 10,000, 30,000 there's some spectrum of what this council might perceive as acceptable and of course the majority of anything above 10,000 is when you get into insufficient supply and then you need pressure tanks and reserves on site to help ensure that there is adequate water to put out the fire and I'm curious if there's any tolerance in the council to try to quantify that perhaps with a cost per square foot of development because obviously as Chris referenced the size of the building and the number of floors of living space would contribute to the amount of sprinkling that it needs and thus the cost of the system so I'd like to respond to that we did discuss in the committee trying to make these variance criteria more specific we did start to go down that road and then we really took a step back and realized that looking at the variances that the variance committee has granted over the past few years regardless of whether they should have been granted or not under that previous ordinance there were so many different factors going into whether or not it was a reasonable cost and the thing that really springs to mind especially now that we're just talking about public buildings we're not talking about single family homes is when the homeless shelter was being proposed for the church this past fall and that was a situation where they weren't actually doing a whole lot of construction it was really a change of view situation and they counted as a hotel and so technically you know we would for a normal hotel of course we would want a sprinkler system but you know I sat on the variance committee with you and even though we didn't have a clear path in the ordinance to exempt them we did not want to have the sprinkler requirement be the one thing to stand in the way of us having a homeless shelter in Montpelier that just did not seem to be the intention and so we granted them a one year variance with the knowledge that we were working on this and would have something going forward so in that situation even a very low cost burden even a very low cost for square footage would have been unreasonable for that situation if somebody was putting in a brand new hotel then we would be considering a much higher cost per square foot as reasonable or unreasonable and so this council appoints the members of the sprinkler variance committee and to some extent we have to give them the tools to figure this out and make that determination and that was where the committee ended up in leaving it a little variable there sure I appreciate that it was discussed and also that certainly there is a place for some level of ambiguity I guess I just kind of wanted to test the waters in terms of you know is that mean that if someone has more or less money when they start their construction project if that would impact that decision or the number of square footage of the house I mean could they just build if they build a smaller house house will be included now or a building a residential multi-family unit may be fall into the state and I don't mind now that we're removing the single one and two family homes most of the projects are going to fall into the state now the hotels and three or more units and a residential falls to the state so if we go back a little bit then in the document to just before one and two family dwellings in terms of new multi-family buildings um in saying that the state would cover those that's really clearly stated here in the first part of the sentence in addition to the provisions of the Vermont fire and building safety code and it goes on to say in what we're preparing to consider approval for an approved automatic sprinkler system must be installed in resident occupancies up to and including four stories in height and in accordance with NFPA 13R is that a more requirement than state requirements um yes it is so even though state law would apply we're now proposing it can be an ordinance that potentially is a greater burden to a developer that's one of the windows of areas that a variance could be considered I would like to suggest just looking at these exempt structures and how we've structured it given that the council has expressed a preference to remove one and two family it probably makes sense to add one and two family dwellings as a line under exempt structures just so that there's no ambiguity that would make this clearer I'm not going to make that motion but if somebody would like to make that motion that would make your ordinance I guess my intent in raising this is just to make sure that we're getting this right if we're have you know variances one through four with things like low risk documents cost burden and inadequate city water there's a lot of ways to get out of this if you wanted if you met these criteria as determined by this rather subjective body that was my only point in raising this okay any further discussion right all in favor please say aye aye thank you all for your work on this issue we've all lost energy we cannot put our mouths to okay the next and final item is the discussion of the Taylor Street art project beauty at last yeah sorry welcome so we have two members of the committee Nathan Souter and Jill Praley and then Paul Gamble who has been responsible for organizing this process and running the city's grant so welcome both of you and Jill it's been a pleasure to spend this evening with you happy Valentine's Day I was going to remind you could watch on TV happy to be at the round table thank you we're excited to be here at this moment I'm just going to give a very short introduction and it has not escaped me that on this special day Montpelier wakes up and celebrates a very precious expression of public art that has become renowned as a part of our identity in Montpelier all over the country people know about phantom and its impact and I have heard it's in the air that there are over 5,000 hearts this year all over Montpelier and I want to point out also that thrill that somehow the phantom and the art synergy project got connected this year and you'll notice there are 200 custom made hearts that are love letters to Montpelier created by students at the high school and union elementary that somehow made it into the hands of the phantom and into the distribution so we're thrilled that the city of all stakeholders are celebrating the power of public art and to just connect the dots to one more level it really I don't think anybody who saw the hearts taped to the flagpole and on the high school the day after the Black Lives Matter flag went up cannot acknowledge that expression of art and messaging through imagery has become part of the actual soul of Montpelier project creating a path to annually supporting a cultural commitment to creating our identity through art should not be discounted or I'm lost for the word here but there's real power in what we're about to do and tonight this announcement is the very beginning of what we hope will become an annual expression of Montpelier's identity through public art so we've had a wonderful process led by Nathan Souter who's been chair of the committee and I'm going to hand it over to him to tell you about that process and then we do have a recommendation which we'd like to discuss probably in an executive session I want to echo Paul's appreciation for spending the evening with you especially today is my birthday I can think of no better way to spend my birthday evening happy birthday putting the kids to bed by herself Paul I think that was a great articulation about the Valentine Bandit I share Paul's appreciation for the power of art in the public space and I love that we are chief by John with the sprinkler discussion and I was going to make some argument that art also makes us safer I do think that this is Montpelier already has a unique identity and it is already a magnet for people both visitors and people who move here and I think that these kinds of arguably very inexpensive choices to take a chance on investing in public art are defining and will be defining further for this community I just find it very exciting and I'll applaud John Holler the city council Paul Gamble and the whole team that has made the NEA grant possible the city contribution possible so that's exciting in terms of running a committee making what seems like a pretty high stake selection happen what we focused on there was a committee that helped draft the charge or the call to artists there was a first stage where we qualified a group of artists as finalists and then we asked those finalists to prepare specific proposals and every step of the way our focus was on a positive process where the members of the committee were voicing affirmative and appreciative comments about what they found inspiring, what they found valuable what they found moving in the artists themselves and then later on in the art proposals and by that approach we really attempted to keep the process positive and affirmative and I think the results both in terms of the finalists quite inspiring and the recommendations we have from the city council I'm tremendously excited about and I think that for the time being we've sadly left some really great ideas you know, on the table and I'm excited that there's a chance we may be able to engage with those artists and those projects in the future thanks for the support I think you're doing the city grant I suppose just as a member of the committee it was an honor to be part of it with the scope of anything I've done before it was a lot of fun and I just want to thank Nathan for the work that he did in organizing it it was a really impressive sort of structure in the way that we went through it that led to a really good outcome I think so thank you Nathan for your work and obviously Paul just for your vision and energy and kind of moving this whole thing along so it's been a lot of fun it's also exciting to hear that you've got a couple other runners up it sounds like we've got plenty of sites I think in the city that are more public art and so hopefully future councils will find a way to directly support that financially well and to as a quick reminder this is one part of an ongoing process we'll be bringing suggested policies to the council for consideration the community is involved in shaping those policies with the consultant that we've hired thanks to the NEA grant and we've been having community charrettes and workshops all through the fall and there's another one coming up next week where we're testing the policies now and seeing how they fit in what kind of structure the city can adopt to have a formalized plan for advancing public art okay so I think what we need now is the most to go in executive session and also invite just to be the the paint on the butt here what's the... that has not been part of my premature disclosure of contract as the auditor has been notified I thought this had been organized with you so the executive session discussion will be for the purpose of can I jump in? I'm asking the artist selection committee is prepared to make recommendations to the city council we've been made to understand that because this is not a feta complete the city council may wish to have the opportunity to discuss the merits of our recommendation versus other proposals in private before making determination is that inaccurate? well it's a ward of a contract so I guess I'm not against it I just want to make sure we're complying that's all in the memo that's all detailed in the memo why don't we pause for just a second sure I mean the contract isn't detailed in the memo but the process that we're proposing doesn't use the word contract in a recommended action but it comes down to a contract with the artist it comes down to an award there are literal contracts there will be a contract $50,000 worth would premature disclosure of your recommendation in any way compromise the city's ability to change who's selected in the future say that again would making your recommendation known publicly tonight in any way disadvantage the city Montpelier in making the final award of that contract I don't believe so it doesn't complicate the process that really is not subject to I'd say more dead than the recommendation we wanted to executive session to consider their finalist what's the difference there once again giving us potential finalist that they want to have input on so that the just to be clear to be clear before there's a public announcement have any personal problems I just want to make sure we're checking the right box so I'm asking what box did we check last time just to be clear of what is where we are right now in the process there have been five finalists the committee has selected a recommendation to make an award the city will own the work it is the city's the committee does not have the power to make that award if the council would like to have any discussion before the award is made I guess that's up to you whether you want to have the discussion in public or whether you want to hear our recommendation and anything that might be proprietary you were coming in to say here's who we've selected and the council was good at I would recommend if you all do decide to go into closed session that you explicitly make the motion under which hook you want to hang your hat on either it's a personnel or it's a contract because I don't see any difference between this and when the community fund comes in but we did it before it's what I was asking before when they give us finalists we went to executive session I think before it was for committee numbers it wasn't for it was for these last these five that all brought their things they passed not the these last finalists the five finalists we met with them in there well I can give you my perspective on this is that if questions come up around the assessment or review of the works and the level of those works and our committee's assessment of those in the same way that you would assess people who are applying to serve on personnel issues we're doing in some regard here about professional personnel issues and I personally am uncomfortable having that discussion in public so my recommendation to in the process was that this going to executive session so that we could be frank without unduly exposing which is what we did for these five finalists we thought I'd make a motion we go to executive session considering that the relationship to the artist with their works is like a personnel issue I might want a second but I have a qualifying question I don't know if it's appropriate without a second to let that die out has the work already been created no then why did we do it before we didn't it was an appointment I'm pretty sure it was these five we discussed who was going to be the last five finalists and now we're trying to decide who's going to be the one do you remember what agenda was at march sorry we were conferring what you were conferring do you want to bring me up to speed on what you were just asking when we meant to hear your input of the five finalists we met in executive session do you remember when that was here are the categories for going into executive session negotiating or security real estate purchase release options no the appointment or employment or evaluation of a public officer or employee but they must make the final decision in an open meeting a disciplinary or dismissal action against a public officer or employee a clear and imminent peril to the public safety discussion or consideration of records or documents that are exempt from public records laws etc those are the ones that and municipal or school security emergency response measures those are all the ones that you can just go in then there are another group where you have to have a finding that premature disclosure puts this public body public at a substantial disadvantage those are contracts labor negotiations labor relations agreements with employees arbitration remediation grievances binding and probable civil pending or probable civil litigation or prosecution confidential attorney client communications made for so my non legal opinion would be contracts would be the only one that this would be and I think the problem with that one is that we don't meet the requirement that premature public knowledge would place the public body at a substantial disadvantage I mean I just don't I guess unless folks feel strongly I think we should well it's a fixed contract there's no negotiation there's no one asking for more commission and we're not offering less and that's really not the purpose of the executive session I would just add the reason I asked if the art had been created or not is because in essence we're going to hire someone for $50,000 to create a piece of art and even though we haven't hired the other four people effectively we're dismissing them from this process we're also asking hopefully that they'll stay in the wings for the next time alright so I think we had a motion was there a second? second I'm going to suggest that we not go into executive session that we just hear from the board I don't think that we need this I think to assuage your concerns I'll just offer a suggestion that you offer your recommendation and the reasons why it is your recommendation you don't need to comment unless other people who attended the sessions want to ask about others you know I think there must be a reason why the choice was made then that way you know I think that involves right yes you write the council and the city owns this but we also appointed a committee to do this work on behalf of the council and I can't speak for them all but I'm assuming they're going to support the committee's decision I'll take that as a nod to the future as we set up the arts commission and the empowerment of that commission so thank you we accept that okay but before we go forward we do have a motion I'm not sure what we do I want to also check in with you I mean given that that was not how you anticipated coming into this I mean I would like to err on the side of having more things than open session if we can would you want a couple minutes to reorganize or okay and would you be okay with doing that I mean would you I think they're ready to go okay I just wanted to check in and I want to apologize because I know you'd run this by and I just didn't give this the attention that it deserved today so I apologize for not thinking about this alright so did you want to go forward with the motion for executive session okay I'm not sure what we do if I think that it's not well we'll vote and then we'll go from there we'll go forward to pass so all in favor please say aye aye how many is that I'm sorry can you raise your hand if you vote aye one alright all opposed okay so the motion fails now let's go to the main main event here so alright after careful consideration of five candidates or artist teams the artist selection committee respectfully submits recommendation of Rodrigo Nava and Greg Gomez an artist team based in Putney for their proposal which is called counter working title counter rotation the proposal with an amendment or with a a model with a proposed modification counter rotation counter rotation is the working title the concept of the the concept of the piece is based on a millstone so they're parts of the piece to reference the history of the site and the history of the junction of the two rivers they reference the form of a grist mill stone in a much larger disk that is cast concrete rotated not quickly like a merry-go-round but slowly and this piece will serve both as a bench and as an interactive piece and it has a counter on it and that counter is attached to is connected to a flip split flap counter or a salari board so if you've been to Penn Station in New York City or many transportation hubs destination board in the timing of arrivals and departures and display a new you got it Councilperson Justin Turcotte is displaying the example there so the the salari board or the split flap board would be mounted indoors in the waiting area likely to be visible even from the outside the initial proposal was to install this piece indoors in the indoor area and it was the strong and unanimous recommendation of the committee that the this offer or this recommendation we made to the City Council and communicated to the artists that provided they are willing to install the grist stone the grinding stone bench piece outdoors in a site that has been identified by the architect on the project then we wholeheartedly support their proposal and the force behind that recommendation is that there was shared belief on the part of the committee that making this piece of art as accessible as possible at all hours of the day to the public was a major priority and we believe from our understanding of the technical details that that's possible and would not affect the durability or the experience of the artwork and so to be clear the recommendations that the City Council award this arts commission to Rodrigo Nava and Greg Gomez from Putney Vermont on the condition that they install this interactive seating disc in an outdoor space that has been identified by Gossens Bachman who is the architect on the project Questions? This is really exciting what an interesting piece of art and will it be a real original or it's going to be created by the artist? Original not an original Gristmill it's going to be cast concrete or that's what they're projecting I'm sure that they'll consider other materials it's much bigger I think than any stone that I am aware of so it's referential but it is not it's not an actual artifact nor is it I understand is the counter going to click off every time it gets pushed in a circle? So the details are quite interesting the split flap counter has 26 character slots and the split flap drums for lack of a better term can be loaded with numbers in multiple languages it can be loaded with letters things like that and so it provides an opportunity for ongoing community engagement where that can be programmed differently it could display haiku but part of the component as the artist intended is that it will keep track of how many rotations that rotating bench has made over the course of its lifetime and counterclockwise Right so they stipulated in their proposal that the rotation would happen in a counterclockwise way as fashion because as they stated sometimes it's important to go the other way Will it count backwards then if you go clockwise? It will not It will not go clockwise And will that counter be located at the same site as the seat? No as I stated Inside? The split flap chart will be mounted likely indoors I think partly to protect it from weather but also that connects the indoor and outdoor space because of the design of the waiting room area our understanding is that it should be visible to people even outside though it is inside There will be some sort of signage where the artist is going would prefer to create some sort of a statement that explains what that counter is to said lay person Correct And a big part of the split flap is the sound it makes as the message is being heard so if it is indoors there will be a speaker outdoors who will be able to watch and hear the sense of the interaction I assume the answer to this is the final question but because it's not a real gristmill people can't actually grind anything in it if they turn it Can't get fingers or feet I just think we are going to have residents on that site if somebody decides to spin this thing in the middle of the night it won't be that loud They have referenced bearing systems that are used in the context the industry from which they are drawing those but the object itself is not noisy I didn't mean to say I was doing with a counter Oh Well, if it is electronically connected to a speaker that is certainly something that can be modulated and shut off time This is a case where the city is the owner of a piece of art and so should you wish to turn it down from 7 to say 6 and volume down Any other questions Donna I'm sorry to disagree with the committee this was my third choice having seen all of them I really love the storm water garden and the whole reshaping out front and using colored tile to take people into the river and I also love the first one that was not only interactive it changes from every position the sculpture but he was offering an opportunity for incredible and he was the first one to speak and the only one I felt really prepared for community interaction of the creation of his sculpture so that's my bias I would have put either one of those first over this one I'm glad you moved it outside Speaking as a member of the committee we were really excited about most of these proposals or aspects of each of them and my understanding is that councilman person body you will remain on the city council and I look forward to your support for public art commissions in the future Oh yeah, I want to go buy one of those they're beautiful Sounds like we've got a strong list of runners up that we can support in the future Any of these would have been exciting Other questions I would make a motion So I would move to accept the committee's recommendation and the process of commissioning this artwork Is there a second? Second Any further discussion? I would not be psyched to have a speaker outside with the flappy noise make them then put that up there I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion about the installation and creation of this Okay Any further discussion? On favor, please say aye Thank you Thank you very much Thanks for all your work Don is an opportunity for us to fund more art in the future Okay, other business let's see, council report Oh yeah, we need to schedule me Let's do that Thank you So I'm just going to throw this out really the only night next week I could meet is Monday So I have time during the day on Monday That's a problem What is the president's day? I can't do anything until Thursday I can do anything except Monday Yeah, let's do that Let's think a better way to do it But it would be good to know We're about postponing it for attendance and if we can't all be there then we're passing up the opportunity tonight to speak, right? So I can do too much any day that week I can make time as a priority for me Yeah, I was just trying to get a sense if there was really going to be impossible I'm going to clear my schedule to whatever works for the body I would simply, for me, Tuesday night we have the Parks Commission Parks Commission but also the DRB is meeting about the Moat and One Taylor and the hotel and the DRC so I'm going to be here representing the city on that side conflict for me but the other nights I couldn't even do it all I'm going to be able to do it anyway so we'll pursue it I can't Monday or Tuesday Monday or Tuesday I'm starting to follow Monday I can do it Thursday or Friday Thursday is still working So Wednesday is out for people the 21st? I can do it before 6.30 so I can do it at 5 I'm out of town on the 21st I'm not back in town until Thursday 22nd Thursday I can't do it Thursday at all I think I could do later on Thursday Friday we'll try to Friday I can do I can do Friday 3.30 to 4.30 Friday but after that Friday I can do more if you can't do Monday you're out there yeah I can't do that you can't do this do daytime work at all for folks I think Donna was out until Thursday or Friday daytime Thursday I guess we will have to do it all okay now we will see what we can do the contract says that we have to do something by March 1st I can't do it tonight I understand that I think what it might just mean is that maybe everybody can't be there and that we have a hard deadline the next week you're gone the 27th or the 8th you're gone okay council reports all of us I just wanted to bring up you all may have gotten this from the league about a workshop in March 24th and there is a deadline for early registration but particularly for new council members this is really this is the one in Fairleigh but it goes into which the name of it is Spring Select Board Institute but it goes into the all the meeting law conflicts of interest water you know it's a good one to kick off and I definitely want to thank the Valentine Bandit Helpers it's always wonderful and as Paul brought up it is art and I just really appreciate it I just want to give gratitude for all the love this Valentine's Day I'll pass just a reminder that parking tax is due tomorrow thank you for that sweet thoughts so I just had a couple of updates as I said Tuesday night the moat site plan and one tailor project should be getting its final permits from DRB this is for the demolition of the buildings and adjusting the lot lines so that's good for those haven't noticed the French block is under construction mitigation it's interesting we did the Black Lives Matter thing tonight I just wanted to note that in the last couple weeks Mayor and I attended an event for every Tuesday night there's Spanish speakers that meet at the Guido's and most of them are non-native English speakers so they're native Spanish speakers from different countries and they held their two year anniversary we were invited and got to go and it was amazing how many different countries were represented there that are speaking in diversity a couple days later I went to the Black Lives Matter flag thing and then last Saturday I went to the Ghana dinner at the high school and it occurred to me that 23 years ago when I moved here none of these things would have been imaginable and so it really is cool the way our community is changing and it's appropriate that we're taking the actions that we are and I want to personal note about the Black Lives Matter and the white privilege I've told this story to several of you I don't know how many but I had an experience that happened to me a few years ago it was in Charlottesville for a conference that you all sent me to and part of it was going to Monticello but while we were there one of my classmates was this guy named Kurt Wilson who's the city manager in California a brilliant man who happens to be African American and a great guy he was there and we were sitting there talking and I was sitting next to another woman who was also African American and we were just kind of sitting there and Kurt was going to go into the gift shop and he pulled out a bag of Skittles from his pocket handed it to Lisa and said can you hold him for me? I'm going into the shop she's like yeah right got it no problem she goes in came back out she gave me Skittles back she bothered me all night the next day I went up to Kurt did I see what I think I just saw I said did you hand those Skittles to Lisa because you were afraid you were going to get accused of stealing them so absolutely he said this is Virginia it's the south I'm black and he said yeah and that's why I gave him to her because she knew I didn't have to explain it and I was like have any of us ever had to think about handing our Skittles to somebody to go into a gift shop and there's a guy who's an accomplished man who thinks about this every day of his life and I told that story to another African-American friend of mine and he laughed when I told him he said of course and he said where do you keep your driver's license he said when you're driving that's one of my wallet he said yeah no black man does because as soon as you reach like that you'll keep them up above and those are two examples of things that just you know when they talk about privilege or you know those are things that we just don't know and we don't live with and so God bless those students for speaking up I'm done, speech over alright without objection we'll be adjourned at 9.30