 Hello, everybody, and welcome to a special conversation on the Twitch, on the Twist channel. We are on Twitch and YouTube and Facebook, streaming all the places. Thank you for joining us this evening. I am so excited to be talking with Rebecca Helm. Rebecca is a researcher at University of North Carolina Asheville, studying ecology and evolution, specifically jellyfish, those wonderful, wonderful little creatures. We've spoken with Rebecca on Twist previously, and Rebecca, you reached out to me last week about something that's going on that we are talking about tonight. So I'm wondering if you could kind of set us frame this conversation for us. Yeah, absolutely. Team C's is a really big multi-influencer initiative led by a couple, very prominent YouTubers, and the goal is to try to raise $30 million to collect 30 million pounds of plastic. And so it's a very ambitious goal, and there are lots of people that are contributing. And so I found out about the official launch about a week ago, along with many people in the YouTube and Ed community, there was this official and official announcement among creators. And then the actual Team C's initiative launched today. And so I reached out because I was sort of like, what do you know about this? I hadn't actually talked to the organizer yet, and so I didn't really know what was going on, but he actually reached out to me about a year ago to talk through ideas. And I had sort of given him some of the takes that I have. And then it was sort of like, well, I don't really know what's going on now. So initially, I just reached out to be like, what's happening? What's going on in the world? I don't know. And then we've kind of watched this whole thing evolve over the week as creators have started putting together videos and podcasts and other media. And it would be really fun to talk about it in the context of maybe more nerdy rigorous science. I like the nerdy rigorous science aspect. I appreciate the Team C's hashtag team C's effort, because it does popularize things that people have been working on in the ecology and conservation space for years. Issues of keeping the oceans clean, the plastics problem. There are so many facets that need to be dealt with. And I think it's great that movements like this publicize and remind people, let's get rid of the plastics in the ocean. We have to clean things up. Why are we so dirty and polluting? And why do we always throw things in the water? But at the same time, it washes over and kind of gets rid of a lot of the details of how things work and the complexity of these systems that we're dealing with. So one of their partners, the Team C's Mark Rober and Mr. Beast, they have partnered with the Ocean Conservancy and also with the Ocean Cleanup Project. And they're going to be doing multiple levels of cleaning things up. They're looking for donations. The donations, each dollar goes to pick up a pound of trash, clean the oceans of a pound of plastics, hopefully. And there are billions of pounds of plastics being released into the oceans every year. The Ocean Conservancy is going to be working supposedly on the ocean part and cleaning up beaches. And they've been working with the Ocean Cleanup Project on cleaning up rivers with one of the Ocean Cleanup Project's new projects. Now, historically, you've had some words to say about the Ocean Cleanup Project and their methods of cleaning up the ocean. Yes, there's been a lot of back and forth, not just between me, but I think a lot of people that are involved in marine science communication have been raising red flags about some of the Ocean Cleanup's activities for a very long time. Drs. Miriam Goldstein and Kim Martini were some of the first. And then I came in somewhat later. But in all cases, issues with the Ocean Cleanup have been twofold. One, they've made some absolutely outrageous promises that everyone knew they couldn't keep. But they didn't seem particularly open to that feedback. They really had to learn the hard way. And they did. And they've acknowledged that they did. And then the second issue, which is really the issue that I kind of keep coming back to is that they want to try to clean up these garbage patches, which are areas of the high seas where there's more plastic than you might expect. But there's still relatively little plastic out there. And a lot of it is from fishing gear. So it's a very particular kind of plastic. And they really want to clean up this great Pacific garbage patch, which isn't really so much a garbage patch as it is about one stadium seat's worth of plastic per soccer field of area. So it's still relatively dispersed. They still want to clean it up. And there's a lot of life out there. And they want to clean it up by dragging these big, you know, greater than a kilometer wide nets between ships. They want to deploy 10 giant nets. And just drive around the open ocean dragging these giant nets as a way to clean up plastic. And they're fishing nets, they buy them from a company that makes fishing nets. And so for me as a marine biologist, I just have to tap the brakes on that and say, hold up, we can't be cleaning plastic with fishing gear. That just doesn't make any sense at all. And we've had a lot of, you know, back and forth about that. And the reality is, they're a very solution oriented organization that's very interested in engineering. Whereas I'm more of an ecologist and biologist and I'm interested in ecosystems and impact. And so I think there's been a lot of challenges trying to convince an organization that wants to fix something, fix something with, with trying to convince them the problem is not so simple. That's kind of fed our back and forth for the last two or three years. Yeah. And I wonder, you know, how much there's a, there is, like you said, they want to do good. They want to clean up, but that you can't just necessarily engineer a solution, because there might not be just one solution. And there are all sorts of aspects that need to be taken into consideration, like the Newston that you've been studying. And we talked about the last time you were on the show. And it's been a couple of years now. I can't believe it's been so long, but have we learned anything new about this, this ecosystem, this particular thing that is affected by the ocean cleanup? We have. Yeah, we've got a couple of papers and review right now. And so we're really hoping that those get out soon. I don't want to share too much. But, you know, more or less, we've tried to do as much as we can from the science and ecology side to really tackle this issue and try to understand more about these organisms and this ecosystem. And really, what's come out of it for me is that every environmental problem is like a cake with many layers of problems, right? And you can't target a solution by just targeting one slice of the problem. So if you were to look at the ocean garbage patch issue, one layer is the plastic. Where is the plastic? How much plastic? What kind of plastic? But then the other layer is what is living at the same place as the plastic, not necessarily on the plastic with the plastic, but just happened to be around the plastic. Then another layer is how much COT to are you going to emit in order to clean up the plastic? We know that the number one threat to the oceans is climate change. So is it worth the trade off? You know, and then there's yet another layer of like, well, how does the plastic actually impact the organisms that are out there? Is it as harmful as we see plastic closer to shore that's involved in a lot of entanglement? Or is it just a case that it's sort of floating out there and animals are floating out there and there's not a ton of interaction? So it's this big thick cake that ocean cleanup is looking at this layer. And I'm trying to look at these layers, right? And so we do have some really exciting stuff coming out, trying to zoom out enough to get a look at the whole cake. It's really hard because there's a lot that we don't know. And one of the real conflicts between science and engineering is that engineering can go so fast. And science moves so slowly. And so hopefully things happen on that front. And I, you know, have not lost hope that we'll get this message out there and it will be heard. And in the meantime, I am encouraged that they are working closer to shore because you can tackle just that slice of the cake closer to shore because it's possible to look at all the other layers. You're close enough to cities. People are out on rivers. They can see what's going on. If you're catching animals and fish, it'll be obvious right away. That's sort of my hope for this whole project. Yeah, the I've been watching the ocean cleanup project. And so they had that first kind of the initial top scooping layer. And now they have the fishing net basically between two boats. And those boats obviously are these ships with diesel engines, they're going to have massive CO2 output. And they're, and if we know that drag fishing where you just pull a net behind a ship, it's going to catch all sorts of sea life and there's going to be bycatch. Exactly. You know, their own environmental impact assessment, right? These are internal documents that Ocean Cleanup has, you know, it said it's going to be really hard to evaluate your impact because most of these animals that you catch are going to be basically crushed and sink before you even bring the hull on deck. So how are you going to know what you're impacting if you haven't really done, you know, the work to go out and see what's happening around the net, under the net, before you're out there with the net. Again, the ecological problem, we don't actually know what the problem is yet. We haven't really studied that. How many entanglements are happening out there? And that's not to say that we shouldn't do everything we can to get plastic out of the garbage patch. I'm all for it. But I'm pretty skeptical that dragging a net behind some boats is the least impactful way to do it. Yeah, I would agree with that. And in this process, the newston and the animals that live in it, do you have evidence that are those animals adapting to the plastics that are floating in the surface? Are they using them as habitats? Is this, you know, and if they are, is this a good thing? Or should we just be like, hey, this is, don't, don't, let's just scrape it and get rid of it. And don't use that. It's so interesting because I've talked with people from like different cultural backgrounds, right? And it's sort of like how you frame this really depends, I think in part on your framework culturally. So it's like, man, I don't like plastic. I think that's very much a consequence of being raised in a society where we see a lot of trash and we really, you know, don't want to see any benefit to that trash. But you're not wrong. They're animals living on it that have made their home on it that seem to be quite happy that it's there. I wouldn't go so far as to say, you know, if we took out all the trash, everything would suffer. I have a problem. Yeah. I'm not really a fan of saying like, leave the trash. Because it created a new ecosystem, whole new niches for organisms. Yeah. What I can say is that in terms of floating stuff on the ocean surface, humans have had two impacts, but we mostly only talk about one. We mostly only talk about the fact that plastic is increasing at the ocean surface. But there's also good evidence that natural debris is decreasing. We've logged, we've damned, we've clogged up rivers and bays. And as a consequence, all of the debris, all of that natural debris that used to float out there that used to cross ocean basins, we're not seeing that as much anymore. So how those two pieces kind of click together for something that's actually living out there is a big question mark. We don't know. We don't know how the community is changing over time. I don't necessarily know if there has been enough time for animals to adapt to plastic, maybe if they have a short generation time, it could, it's possible. I'm not sure we'd ever be able to really answer that question. But it's definitely apparent that the ecosystems are changing. Yeah, we are impacting the ecosystems and undoubtedly. But for the animals that I primarily study, they live independent of plastic. They are not going to interact with plastic. And so it's mostly just a cohabitation phenomenon that they happen to occur in the same place at the same time. Right. And we talked previously though about the jellyfish do kind of look like some of the plastic that floats in the water. And so there are sea turtles that will try to eat plastic bags and get caught in in bottle plastics. And that's really that in itself is terrible. So those are the layers. Those layers. Exactly. It's like you look at sea turtles eating plastic and you say, oh, this is terrible. Let's go hoover up all the plastic. They're probably eating plastic because they're trying to eat the life that exists in the same spot as the plastic. And so if you hoover up the plastic and the life, then you're actually taking all that food away from turtles. Is that really helping turtles? I don't think so. Yeah. And again, like you said, we don't know because yeah, but but if you're getting rid of all of their food sources and the plastic, it's definitely not going down because you can't move the turtles. They're already out there. And so I sort of like to think of it as like, okay, we've already like messed up their living room, you know, yeah, we came in and we threw a bunch of stuff around your house. And now we're coming in with like our industrial strength vacuums, like, oh, this will be way less disruptive. I don't know about you, but that's not how cleanup works in my life. So I, you know, I'm very much concerned that our cleanup efforts or the ocean cleanups efforts in this case are going to be more impactful than the plastic could ever be. You know, which is why it was pretty ambivalent about their inclusion in the team's use project, right? Even though they are focusing on rivers, you just got to wonder, okay, they're freeing up money now that they would have spent on rivers to do more ocean stuff maybe, you know, or if the ocean cleanup finds a way to cut corners and manufacturing, you know, that money earmarked for rivers could go back to their ocean work. It's also like a really nice PR boost to be in the same sentence as, you know, the ocean conservancy to be part of this big project. You know, I was heartened to learn that I think Team C's is pretty aware of how controversial their ocean work is. And so they chose to focus on rivers because of that. And yeah, exactly. And that's kind of where I hope the ocean cleanup goes. Like, hey, you've got a team of really great engineers. You've got an amazing PR team. You have a ton of reach, you have a ton of social cloud, like you could do a ton of good close to shore versus cleaning up the garbage patch is really, you know, far out of reach. And at best, if you succeed, it's symbolic because who's ever going to go to the garbage patch, right? And it's a symptom. So if we don't stop our practices of dumping and, you know, losing things in the ocean, you know, it's always going to be there. And in the last couple years, other solutions have emerged to clean garbage patches that are way less impactful, that have removed literal tons more plastic from the garbage patch with almost zero PR. And so people are now tagging ghost nets with satellite trackers and using sailboats to go out and collect those big aggregations of ghost nets. Other companies are creating deposit spots where fishermen and sailors can actually bring in deposit old nets. So most of the plastic we see in the garbage patch is fishing gear. And there are solutions to that that don't involve massive nets being dragged through the surface. So let's focus on those. They're already having a much better impact in terms of amount of plastic being collected. And they're much less invasive to the environment. Yeah, as as an ecologist, when you think about, you know, these the history of ocean cleanup and conservation efforts and kind of where it's been and where it is now. Like, yeah, how do you feel about where we are now compared to where we have been? You know, I think it's really easy to give them to pessimism sometimes because we're through a pretty cataclysmic time in history and news has been, you know, kind of rough for the past two years. And on the one hand, I don't see that there are going to be instant policy fixes tomorrow. But on the other hand, these conversations are happening behind the scenes that were not happening even a year ago. And so there is movement, you know, on the policy front, which is ultimately, I think, what needs to happen, right? I think there can be a lot of consumer interest in reducing plastic. But if you look at some really successful environmental initiatives of the past, like closing the ozone hole, right, it's a combination of consumer policy pressure, right? You have to have those two sides to kind of squeeze out the issue. And so we've been seeing consumer interest in cleaning plastic. I'm hopeful we're going to see policy movement on the same front. And that'll be, you know, the two wings of a bird and we'll get some some launch that way. That's my that's my hope. I think that's good hope. I think that we should, yeah, if we can help get the word out, people need to put pressure on politicians, on companies, and to see the changes happen that we want to have happen, otherwise it's not going to. And this team sees, I mean, heck, yeah, you know, I think there's, you know, always that challenge of like, do we want to sort of create these micro initiatives, even though this isn't small by any measure, but it's still sort of individuals going out and collecting plastic, you know, instead of policy. And I don't think it's a give and take, right? I don't think that there's some like limited amount of attention you can pay to this issue. And I do think that they're going to get so many people who haven't really thought about this engaged and out there and picking up plastic or donating their money and thinking about it. And I'm so psyched for the group that's going to come out of this, right? I think it's going to take a bunch of people from all over the world and sort of like suck them together into this like really powerful kind of concentrated ball of interest. And I love that. Yeah, that's the kind of community, right? Like if we're all out here, we're all kind of doing our own thing, nothing gets done that way, right? But if everyone can come together, I think that's where you're going to see a lot of change happening. And then I'm frankly, you know, pretty excited for that possibility. I think what they're doing is cool. It is cool. I hope that they can, you know, that this money does lead to cleanup, that the beaches become cleaner, that the rivers become cleaner, because the rivers, they go out to estuaries, the estuaries go out to seas. And so if we can stop the plastic at the source, then it can all be, it can minimize the problem out in the oceans. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything? Yeah. So what were you going to say? Sorry. Oh, no, I was just going to add that I think the more eyes we get on this issue, the better. This is not a high profile issue. You know, I've had a lot of people kind of tell me behind the scenes in the conservation realm that when it comes to environmental issues, like climate is number one, right? And then way down the ladder priority, you have oceans generally. And so then way down the ladder of that, you have plastics. And then within that ladder, there are all of these different kinds of plastics and you get really nerdy and really specific, right? And I think having more eyes on the plastics issue will mean that we can start to look at problems that we just haven't had enough people to look at before. And that's pretty awesome. Yeah. Scientifically, what would you like to see explored? Wow. I, you know, I've, from day one of kind of engaging with this, I really want to see more research on the ocean surface and not just far away from shore, close to shore. This ecosystem that lives at the surface, the new sin, I think it's, it's, it's not well studied at all. You know, really just a handful of people sort of looking at it and no one to my knowledge really looking at it, you know, systematically on the high seas and lots of different places. And so again, it's kind of like, let's not put the cart before the horse, right? Like, let's not try to solve a problem before we understand what the problem actually is. Let's get out there. Let's understand what lives out there. We know for the North Atlantic, where people are sailing all the time, that the North Atlantic garbage patch is also the Sargasso Sea, this amazing, like, shoreless sea of life and biodiversity that all gets concentrated by the same physical forces that happen to concentrate plastic. And the Sargasso Sea has existed there long before plastic was invented. And there's no reason to think that these same physical forces concentrating life into this really vibrant hot spot, this really incredible ecosystem and community with lots of endemic species and fish and all sorts of strange things. Freshwater eels that swim all the way out of the spawn. It's such a bizarre place. There's no reason to think that those same kind of alien ecosystems aren't being created by the same physical forces in another part of the ocean. So anywhere you get these swirling gyres, there might be these same concentrations of floating life and we're seeing evidence of that. You know, in our very preliminary studies of the Pacific, we're seeing evidence of that. And so I want to see more focus on trying to figure out what's out there before we do anything to impact it. And just be very careful, very careful and mindful that, you know, we are in unknown territory right now and we're in someone else's backyard. Yeah. And it's our earth is made so much smaller by travel and communication like this, where we can talk with people all over the world and connect with people through the internet. But the ocean is massive. And there is a lot, a lot that we have still to explore. Yeah, that is something that I think that is a hill I will die on, right? I think there's this tendency now, especially with, you know, all the challenging news and all the scary things that you hear about that you don't realize there is so much we don't know. Like there are just huge chunks of the ocean that literally like no human has ever seen ever, right? When you get down into the deep sea, you're often the first person to ever lay eyes on that ground, right? Which is so hard to even consider because we have like people lining up to go to Mount Everest now. I know. People lining up to go to space. But you know, it's still the case that when you go out to these open ocean regions that haven't been well studied, I mean like more than 50% of the life that you find has never been described by science. And so it's going to require a totally different way of thinking to figure out how to manage human impacts. It's like trying to figure out how to manage our impact on another planet that has life on it that we don't understand at all. And that's how I like to think of the high seas and the garbage patches, right? These are like other planets and the life out there is so alien and so we have to be really careful. Yeah. Maybe we should start watching Star Trek and go back and watch Star Trek to kind of figure out our policies there, right? Exactly. Exactly. It's all about the whales. So yeah, I do think that, you know, again like the ocean cleanup moving closer to shore, doing river stuff, like I have no problem with that, right? I mean, I am not out here to bash everything that they do left, right and center. You know, my issue is that I don't think they've really done what they need to do to be responsible ocean citizens, right, on the high seas. But yeah, if they find a way to safely deploy these river cleanup devices in a way that's not disruptive to animals or people, then I say more power to them. Go for it. That would be great. You're going to catch a ton more plastic and it's going to really impact people and animals that are right there, right away. Yeah. Is there anything that we've missed that you think we need to, that we that we should comment on scientifically or eco like or, I mean, we've talked, we talked also about the fear of greenwashing and I think with so many, I think just before we finish up, we should probably touch on that a bit to get people to be aware of that as a problem as well. Yeah, it's a huge issue. So it's basically, you know, finding a superficial way to address major ecological concerns so that you can say that you have taken this issue seriously without actually doing the real hard work. And, you know, I would say that ocean cleanups, ocean work, you know, flirts dangerously with that line. They haven't had a great success rate so far, even if they succeed at collecting plastic, untold potential harm to the ecosystem. And so, you know, that's something that gives me a lot of pause, especially when you looked at, you know, a year ago, I kind of took inventory of a lot of their sponsors. You know, and there was a noticeable number of petroleum companies, plastics companies. And on the one hand, those are probably the organizations that should be cleaning the ocean. But on the other hand, you know, are they really only doing this symbolically or is it really meaningful? And what I worry about is that we end up with a lot of solutions that don't actually fix the problem, but they allow people, organizations, plastics producers like Coca-Cola to skirt the responsibility of really tackling the issue. Right. Yeah, these organizations like Coca-Cola and others that produce the plastic bottles that are water, that are sodas, are sold in, and, you know, there needs to be return policies, recycling policies. How can we influence cradle-to-grave policies where those are a part of the thinking of the corporations and it's not necessarily a consideration of the consumer. And that's something that's happened a lot in its big tobacco, big oil, and this is part of it as well is putting the onus on the consumer saying, well, you're the ones who want to buy these things. This is your fault. And I think that you hit the keyword there, which is policy, right? Like we need, you know, effective strategies to manage this, you know, from the bottom and the top, both the consumer and policy. And when you look at, you know, Coca's partnering with the Urgent Cleanup, that's a containable organization they can have an impact on, right? They're donating a lot of money. They don't have that same level of sway in policy. And so it's not necessarily surprising that, you know, a company that is responsible for, you know, the majority of the plastic pollution we're seeing on the shores, or I should rephrase that as, you know, in the top. It's a high proportion. Right, yeah, yeah. They're not the only one, but they're a big one. Yeah. You know, isn't necessarily maybe as interested in policy change as they are in like, let's find a way with rugged determination and a couple brilliant people in a rag tag team to solve this incredibly thick issue with lots and lots of layers in a way that looks really good, that we can cite to our investors, right? That doesn't necessarily actually get to the root of the problem. Yeah. There's a question from one of our Twitch viewers asking about the, these technologies that are being used. Could we eventually use these techniques to harvest the plankton to provide protein sources for human and livestock consumption? So, yes, that's actually speaking of your layer cake. Happening exactly. Yeah. So one challenge that's happening right now that is similar to this is people are starting to fish the deeper layers of the ocean. And so these layers are called the mesopelagic layers. It's the twilight zone. It's sort of half dark, half light. And there's a lot of biomass down there. And if you just drag in that through that later, you come up with a big slurry of stuff. It's not necessarily one species of fish. It's like all different kinds of fish and invertebrates and shrimps and crabs. And then you can grind that all up and turn that into a relatively cheap meal. The challenge, of course, is that that ecosystem is a lot like sort of a hidden rainforest, essentially, it's absorbing a ton of atmospheric carbon that we never see. Yeah. And if you start taking all of that out to solve one problem, you might end up contributing to another problem, which is again where that sort of layers comes in. And from what you were, you know, as you were saying before talking to conservationists and people working in these issues, climate change is at the top. So you don't want to be dealing at the layer that's going to be contributing to the layer at the top. Especially if you don't understand that layer at all, right? Which is true for most of the ocean, right? We really don't understand what's going on out there. It's really hard to get out there. It's very expensive. It requires a ton of resources, lots of cutting edge technology, things break. And so for example, if you wanted to fish that top layer of the ocean or maybe a middle layer of the ocean, one very simple conservation question would be, okay, well, how much can you impact it before the impact becomes too much? And the ecosystem begins to collapse. And how long do you need to wait between your various fishing expeditions so that it can recover? And the answer to both those questions is we have no idea. In fact, we don't know if it will ever recover to its original state. Like we see with reforestation, where forests grow back really different. And they're serving the ecosystem in really different ways. And some things are doing well, some things are doing terribly. We just don't know. My big fear with a lot of these organisms is that they might be really slow growing. And we have no way to age them. They could be, you know, a thousand years old. And we would have no clue. And so, okay, you go and fish all of the thousand year old animals out of the ocean, and then you have to wait how long, you know, for them to repopulate their original numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like, you know, a lot of our fishing industry and the things that we've done with the stewardship of the fisheries has been kind of learning by making mistakes. It's like, oh, we're going to do it this way. And then we're going to do it that way. And suddenly we are, you know, doing big nets to catch everything. And oh, we have all this bycatch. And suddenly we see that we have impacted the fish stocks and they're not coming back or they are coming back. Or, you know, it's, it, it doesn't, it feels sometimes like we're getting to this point where it's like, we have so many people on the planet and we're doing so much. And it's like, if we make a mistake like that, which one is going to be the one that tips us over the edge that we've like just, you know, messed up our food possibilities. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the high seas covers half of Earth's surface. And so it's like, we've got this whole other half of the planet that comparatively hasn't been as impacted as the half that we live on and the half that falls within the national jurisdiction. And we sort of draw lines around, right? And so it's like, we have a real opportunity to take the mistakes that we've made and not repeat them. And I think that I hope that, you know, we will really take that opportunity seriously. I think that's wonderful. I hope that we do too. Do you have any, anything else that you want to add for people who are watching? Yes, I will do a couple of plugs. So if you're interested in, you know, thinking more about fishing, I've got, you know, a couple of really interesting, exciting things that are happening. Over 200 scientists just called for the World Trade Organization to end fishery subsidies that are given even at the expense of our best science to suggest that they're going to be overfished. So we call fishery subsidies that are done in, in sort of the, in the face of evidence to suggest they shouldn't be as harmful fishery subsidies, right? Subsidies that are given even when they know the impacts are going to be bad. So lots of scientists recently wrote a letter in science calling for an end to harmful fishery subsidies. Very hopeful that good will come of that. The other thing that we're doing now is we have a NASA project to invite everybody that's interested in the ocean to join us in understanding what's happening at the ocean surface. And all you have to do is go to the beach or go out on a sailboat or go surfing and then report back to us what you see while you're out there. And we're most interested in the things that float on the ocean surface, but we want to know where they are and where they're not. So anything you see at the beach, we want to hear about it. And you can join that project at gocscience.org, let's go SCA, science.org, and we would love to have you in our team. So that is, you know, how we're trying to tackle these issues and really get to the heart of the matter. Yes, so come hang out with us. We have monthly open lab meetings where we just nerd and talk about cool ocean life. And it's awesome. It's so fun. And the best part is that you're going to be part of a community that includes satellite experts working for NASA and people that really can get to some very cool technology. So if you see something neat in your area, you can email us and say, Hey, is there any chance that a satellite is overhead or was overhead when I saw this? You know, I saw this really cool thing. I want to see if you can see it from space and we can take a look. So it's an amazing group of people. It's really fun. It's all open. Anyone can join. It's totally free. All you have to do is go hang out at the beach and use us as an excuse. That's what I was just thinking. I'm like, Oh, this is you go to the beach. And Oh, I have to do science. I have to go to the beach. This it's just necessary. We need to make this trip. Yes. So, so we're trying to really tackle these questions. And, you know, it's it's a global challenge. And so, you know, having everyone participate is really the only way to solve them. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, this has been so great. I've I always enjoy speaking with you and interacting on Twitter always. But yeah, I'm so happy that we made this happen and that we were able to have this conversation. I know what a wonderful like Friday night treat we can hang out more often. Yeah, Friday night science. Get it done. All right. Thank you everybody for joining us. And here I put up the team trees thing again. Thank you for joining us for this special interview and this conversation. And if you are interested in supporting team C's, look for hashtag team C's, you can go to team C's.org. And if you're interested in Dr. Helms citizen science project, go to go C science.org. Super awesome. Thank you all for watching. Twists will be back next Wednesday, 8 p.m. Pacific time. Catch you later. Thank you. Thank you.