 I'm going to call the finance committee for September 5 2019 to order and it's just a couple minutes after six o'clock we've a lot to do in a one-hour period and We were all present except for One person who is just walking in the dark. So yes missed anything So I want to thank you all for being here on time the first part of the agenda for which we have an hour has four items listed on it the Centennial water treatment plant, which will be first then discussion about the school bus requests from the schools and The town manager is forwarded to us. I think that it's actually his request now Because it's a capital request the third is to establish a meeting schedule for the remainder of this calendar year and Then the last thing is that's on the agenda is Hickory Ridge However The Hickory Ridge is We really don't have to spend much time on it other than to see if there are any immediate questions because There's a requirement in the Charter that there has to be a public forum before a budget a new budget request and the public forum has been scheduled for the September 23 town council meeting and If we agree to a September 24 Finance committee meeting, which was what the proposal was that I sent out to you when we get to that agenda item Then I would propose that we not You have a substantial discussion of Hickory Ridge, but allow the public forum to take place first and He would not be voted on by the town council under the present plan until October 7 So I just wanted to Set that out, but Just I want to remind my colleagues on the committee that this is being televised by Amherst media tonight because of the complexity of both meetings and in order to have your very important contribution Be heard by our audience Please make sure that you're pressing the button and the green light is on because Amherst media will not be picking you up otherwise so with that I would like to thank Guilford mooring superintendent of Public Works for being here and Where we were last time is we had Taken an initial vote to support and then a number of questions had come up about the centennial plan because when Mr. Mooring made his last presentation I think that we were all somewhat surprised and uncertain as to what to deal with the statement that he made about this being the preliminary of a much larger project and That we really needed to look at just not the single piece for the engineering work, but the entire piece and I Did some work you have my draft of what could be a report from the committee But then decided that it would be best to have mr. Mooring Make a presentation to us to explain a little bit of what is in the draft report, which he has a copy of and Provide the information and answer your questions. So with that I would turn it over to you let's Mr. Rockman, do you have anything else to say first? Okay We were going over the questions that were asked and what I thought the best thing to do is to go back To the report that was done by Tate and Howard so Tate and Howard did a report and then the The PowerPoint you're about to see now is what they presented to the select board in 2017 almost two years ago I added a couple of slides in here to add some more information in it to help you understand some of the thought processes We used to get to where we were going so The study these are the goals of the study basically this study came about after The 2016 drought and people wanted to know do we have enough money or water? We always have enough money do we have enough water? So that's what that question was how much water do we have? So this is a slide. I added so we operate under a permit from DEP and There's two parts to the permit. There's a registration that allows us to withdraw 3.34 million gallons a day and the registration is a Older piece of Legislation that was given to communities that authorized them to take water from certain places. So this is kind of Was grandfathered in there has been moves by different groups in the state to get rid of these registrations and make everybody have a permit So if you have enough water and you can live with your registration You don't have to get a permit The town of Amherst needed a permit because we need we're using more than the 3.34 gallons or million gallons a day of water So we got an additional permit from DEP and our additional permit is for a 1.21 How do you get the point to one and it's kind of interesting, but that's what it is So we can use on a daily basis 4.55 million gallons a day now that's an average we can have days where we're over But at the end of the year, we need to be at 4.55 or under So that's what DEP allows us to withdraw So these are existing water sources and each water source has its actual limit to it of what it can what can come from that water source So as you look at this well for I mean well one has point six five Mgd and then you go down the list and total of our groundwater withdrawals We're allowed to take four point four million gallons a day Our two surface supplies each one we can take one point five million gallons a day That's so we're at total of like seven million gap seven plus million gallons a day of what we can have for water So that's what we can permit as our permit numbers So if we if we take Centennial out of the picture We lose one point five million gallons of water. That's available to us Although yes, we don't always need it, but it's already permitted. It's already Approved. It's already it's hard to take harder to take away if we give it up. It's harder to get back Right now Today we use three point four million gallons or yesterday was the average was three point four million gallons And that's normally our normal as you saw in the report the normal heavy-use times or September October and April Haven't figured out April yet We haven't figured out why April but September school starting people are moving in people are cleaning things people are in sports they're Being doing things using more water Grass is still growing people are watering their grass people are still doing those type of things so our biggest Our biggest times is September October and April and we use around three point four to three point five is normally the average For that time period so in the study we looked at how we can improve and make sure we had enough water So then I Added this slide today As I talked about we have a water permit We haven't got our revised water permit yet. We expect to get it in probably another year year and a half and It's based on what's called the sustainable water management initiative swimming You'll hear us talk a lot about swimming Sometimes may hear a safe fishy But it's really swimming The goal of swimming is to improve the environment and the habitat for the aquatic animals That also use the water we want to drink so swimming has some interesting things about it But what swimming does is it takes the sub water sheds and in the state and it classifies them as to how stressed They are the groundwater withdrawal category is basically a stress level Stress level or level one is the least stressed There that's not much going on there not much in development not much going being withdrawn from that area Number five is high stressed So right now our Groundwater supplies are all down here in this area here, which is called the Lawrence swamp and It's a category five It's a highly stressed water basin because we have our five wells We have well number six, which we don't use The Dagle well, which is the well, which is for Belcher town is in there And then there's some other permitted wells in there as well for private usage. So this is a highly stressed watershed So we basically take our water from Lawrence swamp And then we take it from the Pelham reservoir and the Atkins reservoir And as you can see the Pelham reservoirs are blue So there are one that's a unstressed very unstressed watershed and Then the Atkins reservoir the area around it is a two which is less stressed or a little more stress, but not totally unstressed I was trying to think of how to relate that but stress seems to be the best way to All right, so So what we were looking at is is everything is down here now And that's the highest stress level and then we have the two up here, which are least stressed So we really don't want to lose the least stressed areas in our watershed and Then as we talk further about this you'll see there was a discussion about looking into Sunderland and see if there's a well-sourced in Sunderland when you get into Sunderland You're in a slightly less stressed area than We're in right now and If you actually come down and get a little maybe in Hadley or into the Northwest corner of Amherst the stress level in the rest in the area is also less and The stress level drives how the permitting requirements are and if you read the report it talks about minimization and maximization Maximization and minimization deal with how you would withdraw your water So during the high high summer days you take less from surface waters And you take less from the stress basins and you take more from the unstressed basins So as you can see we're kind of sitting in a pretty good picture here Well, we have unstressed basins and stress basins and we can when the permit comes and it tells us how we have to do this We have some wiggle room So we have three million gallons that are in an unstressed basin and we have four point four million gallons and a stress basin and if we go outside the basins we're kind of They're less stressed than the Lawrence swamp So then this was the chart that someone in specifically asked a question about so Yes, the wells are we're permitted for four point four. They that's what they can produce Most of the time we're around using one to one and a half mgd from the from the wells and We try to set it up. So it's like a third a third a third So if we have Atkins and Centennial online, there'll be one third of the use for that day And then the wells will be another third if we take Centennial off It'll be 50 50 the well is 50% and Atkins 50% and we adjust those And you do have to take the sources offline for maintenance and different things So this is just how we're set up again Atkins water treatment plant Centennial water treatment plant there for the surface waters Baby carriage which is for the well for which is a high iron and manganese system It takes the iron and manganese out of the water ground water We have there's four tanks three of them are ours and the UMass owns one So we looked at alternatives and look to see how our system was functioning and how we can improve it These are the eight alternatives. They looked at Well alternative one was to automate and make well for more usable Well for as high iron and manganese and the way we were using this well when I first got to Amherst 17 years ago was we it was very clunky to use it and very Manpower and electric electrically intensive. We used a lot of electricity run the facility We use a lot of chemicals to do things and you had to have someone there a great deal of time to run make it run So automating it makes it easier and makes it more usable We've made some a lot of changes before this report came out We got rid of the extra chemicals we were using we do different things and how to treat the and sequester the iron and manganese and get it out of the water So that was one alternative and the what we need to do here is give them backup power Neither of the well are the treatment plant had backup power to run the whole facility And then we need to put a SCADA system which SCADA system in which is a control system To control the water and control the well and make sure the treatment process goes correctly We're in the process of doing installing the SCADA system now We did the two generators there in we also did a variable drive motor for a well for that said So we just have to finish the actual programming and the autumn automation part Alternate alternate number two was upgrade Centennial So Centennial has been on the radar to be upgraded since I've pretty much been here to 17 years We've worked about how to do it The it was finally decided at one point that all we were gonna do is we keep it exactly the way it was and just update it And that's why we had a four million dollar project earlier It was a million a little over a million to do a sewer line So that we could use a different chemical in the process and then we could send that chemical directly to the sewer plant to be treated The way the plant was originally built was that all the treatment chemicals went to a lagoon and Percolated into the ground and that's how we dealt with the chemicals and the treatment process So that the sewer line was to Use different chemicals and to treat it differently. The other issue was a pump station Centennial is above our hydraulic grade line. So we actually had to pump the water up to Centennial it didn't actually naturally flow up there and Then the other process the other million and a half was roughly to a little over a million and a half was to just Redo what was there and make things look nicer and get rid of the rust and do some extra wiring Since that time we looked at the plant and we said we really can't just do this if we did just this little bfix We still won't be able to use the plant as much as we want to So we actually did a second separate study With a dissolved air flotation and found out that using dissolved air flow trait flotation with the Roberts filters Actually makes the treatment plant work better so the project you have before you or what you the overall project now is to Basically take the plant down and install new filters dissolve the air flotation and a new building That's the process the project. That's why it's in the $10 million range right now So what you're looking at is a treatment plant Modification upgrade gives you 1.5 million gallons of water It'll be here for the next 50 60 years before you probably have to do anything else this treatment plant The third option was to replace well five So if you remember well five is when in the Lawrence swamp with all the other wells So if you think of drinking bowls Lawrence swamp is one drinking bowl Where the reservoirs are is another drinking bowl. You're really just still taking water from that Same drinking bowl that we use a lot already. So to upgrade well five into is the most inexpensive of the options They said well after baby baby care just one of the most inexpensive options It's still has to go through DP and be permitted So we're asking to upgrade and make a well better and already highly stressed area So the odds that DP is actually going to let us do that DP is the Department of Environmental Protection. They issue our permits if I haven't said DP already. I apologize So that's kind of an iffy situation and it's sort of a at this point in the game Without having our permit. We're not really sure how that will go We could spend a lot of time on well five and then DP come back and say you did a great job But you still can't take any more water out of it So that's not Very nice And then the fourth alternative the major fourth alternative was to go to the northwest corner of town in the Sunderland or Hadley or Anywhere on that side and Amherst and look for another well site We have two private property owners who were interested in and possibly selling us a site There's the Nilsson property in the Rock Warner site So those are up there the issue with those are still you have to get a permit from DP So even though we go through the process it has to be permitted Permitting is unknown and then you have to connect it to the water system somehow Which is it's the price that there's a rough price for connecting it But depends on how you install the well and so forth is how much it's really going to cost to connect Then the other choices are here Well six wasn't a good choice because well six was supposed to be a backup for well four So you can't run well six and four at the same time if you ran well six and four at the same time You have to make baby carriage a bigger facility Connecting the Pellum reservoir to Atkins water treatment plant It's not really the best thing to do There's what's not included in in there is the price of buying land and actually getting the permits to run the pipe all the way over There's a price price for actually running the pipe But you got to buy the land and permit it and get it there and then once you get it to Atkins if you want to run Atkins and do the same thing as running Atkins and Centennial You have to upgrade Atkins so that can handle the bigger water flow. So you're upgrading something in there Dredging the Atkins reservoir was another option But it really doesn't give you that much more water and it also has a chance of puncturing puncturing the confining layer under the reservoir and making a big drain instead of a bowl to hold water and Then connecting to MWRA that someone said we should just connect MWRA if you read in the report That's very very expensive and then you were subject to MWRA's rules and regulations If you want to keep drawing that water from them And if we were to take raw water from them, we still need to treat it somewhere So there still be a treatment facility somewhere So again, this is the chart people are focusing on and the report kind of lays them all out and give some cost numbers When this chart was made this was before we had decided how we were going to handle Centennial too We were still just thinking about Doing a small repair to the structure just trying to jam everything into the existing structure Which we've decided you can't do it just won't fit and Then there's a couple other things that we're going to be phased in over time like the controllers the mass MCC's If you see that says MCC's they were going to be put in at a different time And a couple other things would be put in at a different time. So they were just farther down the road so The recommendations that came out that this is what was presented to the select board two years ago was Increased baby carriage and well for which we've been working on and then making great progress upgrade Centennial Develop the new source in Sunderland are in the Northwest corner of town and replace well five and And that's how we came to the conclusion to keep going with Centennial and to move the Centennial Project forward and I think I hopefully had answered all the questions that were asked But if not, I'm happy to ask answer more. Sorry So I think there was one question that came up and you and I had had some correspondence about it and that was if there was any more explanation of where the number of 10 to 11 million dollars came from Since it was so much larger than the prior you've answered some of that But I don't know if you wanted to expand on that a little bit and then beyond that I'm going to turn it over to my colleagues on the committee and So the price you the price you have now before you which is 11 Roughly 11 million includes all the design work all the permitting and then the treatment plant itself and the scope of work The titan Howard put together is they went through and they actually did a full blown analysis of what needed to be done And they actually did much more work than in this preliminary study from two years ago Two years ago. We used existing numbers and we did ballpark figures and estimates to come up with the numbers and then we also used other Things we knew which were the numbers from the tie-in bond report, which was older than the 2017 report So what you have now is a much more thoroughly worked out and flushed out project Okay So I'm going to keep look this side and then this side Lynn Have we accommodated for the expense or centennial in our water rates We have not to date done that we've only taken to account the cost for the engineering and We haven't taken an account the cost for the final project because once it's designed then there might be some other ways we can actually For lack of a better term value engineer or reduce the cost It's a simple plant We can take the old plant down ourselves if it fits into the time schedule for construction The DPW forces may just take down do the demolition that would take some of the price off of it There's some sewer work still needs to be done. That's something we do every day We can do that stuff if it looks like it's doable and there's different things that we can look at to actually make the price come Down so we haven't actually we're still using the 11 million dollar number But once that's designed and once it's we have a we're ready to go out the bid we'll be able to do some trimming and adjusting to make it fit to our world more Yeah follow up on that and that is that if if you actually look at the cost of the Plant and the and so forth My understanding is a fair amount of it is actually equipment and not a building Yes, this this falls under the when we talked about public works Or we talked about bidding and building projects the first slide I showed you and I actually should have probably got that slide out the first slide I showed you told you building projects This is how you do building projects and there was a column next to it We said public works projects a water treatment plant is a public works project because the building is incidental to the purpose The purpose is building a treatment plant You can actually leave the treatment plant out there with no building on it and it will still function The building is just something that covers it So that's why it's done differently than the school building we talked about the DPW building and the fire building and The other buildings we've talked about Yeah, I just want to under go back to the cost a bit more because in the 2007 report the Tata report they actually had three and a half million with the DAF this New process so it looks like it was a hire that two and a half was The 2010 I'm just looking at page 17 of the report so reading off numbers, but Going up to 11. They had talked about putting in that new process when I was reading the report Page 19 of their report So they had it in more in the four million dollar range So quite a bit higher than the two and a half And so so it just I don't I may have missed a document when you said we have something that walks us through How it went from that to a hire? I look through the slide pack in this one, but I Indy do we have another piece of paper? No, it's about 11 you don't okay So in on the page 19 the first opinion and cost was from the 2010 report, which is the tie-in bond report And that's two and a half roughly two and a half million dollars that just do Just to replace what was there right and then the next one down is Go further and do that then then tie-in bond to another report in 2015 Where we did some some other changes and we came up to three point seven million dollars and then once we started talking about what was going on they looked at the generators and the master controllers and They came up the fact that we didn't really need to change those immediately at the way we were trying to do this so that's another three hundred thousand and Then we were trying to just fix the rest spots on the building. So if you turn the page to net the 20 There was only there was roughly a million dollars for structural work on the building to try to make the building usable and safe and meet code So that was the the price before Tate and Howard and then Tate and Howard came back and did some adjustments to it and that's what they have in on page 30 35 There they have two and a half million dollars for the Roberts filters 3.7 for the DAF They still kept the three hundred thousand for the generator and we still hadn't decided to do the whole building yet So we're still at a million dollars. We're just repairing the building So that's where this the numbers came from for the this 2017 report Okay, so those are all you add those numbers together that the two and a half for the Robert filters and DAF That's getting added to the other numbers that we have. Yes, okay So if you take on page 35 you take everything under the cost percentennial the Roberts filters DAF The MCC's and generator and the structural work and add them together. That's the price at that time That's seven when I first did this report in 17 Okay, and then just to build on lens we've gotten a preliminary estimate on water rates of the authorization we're being asked for which is the Almost seven hundred thousand for the study in the engineering that it would increase rates by Not quite four percent or three and a half percent. So if Do I extrapolate if I say if seven hundred thousand was three and a half percent eleven million will be and then I know No, okay, you can't do that The the engineering cost is going to be a bond and that's the Sixth that's the money we're asking for right now the six hundred thousand That'll be part of a bond. So to be bonded over so many years. So it's a smaller number The rate went up because of other changes that are going on that includes a Contract cost for labor. We just sign new contracts. There's a two percent cull for all the employees in the water department That's included in there that also actually goes into the Workers comp number, which is actually in the water budget and it also goes into the retirement number Which is in the water budget everything in the water budget stays in the water budget. So if you Change employees benefits. It's all right there So that's figured in there as well And then there's electrical cost and there's a fuel cost change and a couple other changes we did in the budget So depending on what year it is is how You're going to the three and a half had a lot of other things in it Not just the bond cost. Yes, and it had current capital in it too Which will pay off some of the current capital before we actually probably start paying for a centennial plant as well Would we be able to give? I Don't know what year it would hit, you know So first the first rates would absorb the cost of doing the engineering study and then at the point The plant is constructed and we're incurring the large amount Would we be able to talk about a guesstimate on what it'll do to the rates? We could we could put together if we yeah We could put together a actual layout on the rate rate sheet and show you where we are We'd have to make estimates about some other things too, but we could and it would be you know At what year four years out or five or whatever, you know When the best guess is when it would show up in water rates, you know Understand that it's not tomorrow if everything start if we can stay on schedule like we are now It'd be about four years when the when this project would hit the books as a capital project for the actual construction Thank you. So for people who are Watching and aren't familiar with the discussion that's gone on so far The references that were just reading made was to an Amherst water supply study That is available on the town website is from 2017 I believe and We will see that we can get it posted into the Website for the finance committee pages sometime but soon, but I just wanted to make it where the It had been available to the finance committee, but It was not in the public packets yet Other questions Dorothy I have a question about the design costs of 692,000 and I said, okay, that could be 11 people at a salary of $60,000 working for a solid year or Could be five and a half people at a hundred and twenty thousand dollars working for a solid year And that's just not like an awful lot of money For design costs, and I'm sure that you'll explain to me why it's so high Let's not high Usually these projects are around 10% when I first started they were 10% Engineering cost is slowly creeping up to about 20% of our project costs right now So this is not a high engineering cost This is the not to exceed number for this design So we won't be coming back and asking for more money for the design and this and covers everything they They anticipate will have to do So It's not really that high sorry so in other words when you compare it to schematic design For a building like a DPW or a fire station This is a higher per square foot or per cost Then you would expect there because there's so much more engineering in it. It's it's yes This is a process building your building You're but this is that we're building when people say the DPW buildings an industrial building the DPW is not an industrial building This is an industrial building you walk into this building. There's pipes. There's pumps. There's motors There's air compressors. This is all industry. It's basically you're piping and plumbing everything and making it work and Controls or controllers are there and everything. This is basically you're designing this whole process and that's what the One of the reasons why it is a little higher because the cost of the design of the building is gonna be much smaller than the whole project is altogether Show me So I'm pretty sure you just explained this and I didn't get it. So I'm sorry if I didn't understand that but can you speak specifically to what changed in After the report because the report recommends not up not upgrading the centennial and But we're still doing that So actually I probably left this out So two things changed I talked about one of them one of them is we figured out we cannot put everything we want to Inside the existing building the existing building is too small to do the upgrade in Originally, we were gonna keep the existing building and just make everything fit inside and it physically won't fit inside The second thing that happened, which I think we talked about maybe a couple other meetings But I haven't brought up tonight is on the current plant got hit by lightning and When it got hit by lightning several of the motor controllers and several of the control pieces in it were We're shorted out. They got electrified and burnt up When we started to replace those pieces that bring the plant back online We found out that we couldn't replace just the piece that got destroyed we had to replace three or four other pieces in the process because the new New pieces we were buying wouldn't talk to the older pieces and we needed to upgrade the whole thing Sort of like your mouse going out on your computer But then your computer won't talk to the new mouse and then on and on and on it's it was So we realized we just needed to stop Redo everything and started a clean slate. So that was the second thing that happened, which I didn't hear right I didn't talk about that. Sorry the questions So I think that what we have to do now is Quickly make a decision amongst ourselves as a committee and so on a stop and pose it as a committee question But Guilford, please stay where you are case questions come up The chart that I just handed out to you I was going to get to you anyway, and I've made it had been sent to members of the committee beforehand And you'll notice across the top dates finance committee or town council meetings And what we anticipate happening for the three projects that really are substantively before the committee Getting to the centennial water plant the ultimate goal now is to do take a vote before the town council meeting on October 7 in It will be subject of Public forum discussion along with hickory ridge at this September 23rd town council meeting Because there's a requirement that there'd be public input to the council through a forum Which can be and will be at a council meeting on new appropriations So that if we decide The subsequent agenda item that we're going to have a September 24th meeting There will be the opportunity to take up both of those items after the public forum so that we Hear the public input in discussion before making a finance committee recommendation With that said, I think that the question that's before you is whether you want to take action to either reconsider or approve the draft report that I put together or whether your preference Would be to Have that postponed until the September 24th meeting Yes, Lynn I personally prefer that we always hear from the public before we vote For that we hear from the public in the public forum before we vote Means we would not vote or revote or reconsider until September 24th Let me just ask another very quick question regardless of what the regular schedule is Is the committee available for September 24th, and there's been a request made by one member That we would start 230 I believe is the request And so I wanted We need to make sure that we're able to have a meeting on that day in order to make this firm this out So is there anybody who has a problem with a September 24th 230 meeting I'm gonna have to rearrange something that I have later. I think I can Okay But I just I have a question Lynn on on your recommendation With the draft report that Andy has drafted based on the last time we met where we Voted in favor of the engineering study. I think it would be really important to get The table that's on page 35 simplified But just to go to step us forward so people understand where that came from so not this chart pack but that page 35 that says this is The best guess in 2015 realizing or 2017 realizing we're now talking about construction five years later So people understand where these numbers are coming from because right now you have to Read too much to know how We said it was 2 million then we said it was 3 million now. It's 11 million and The engineering studies so you know just to put more justification both on why we need the plant Which we have plenty of evidence of why we need it, but but where the costs are coming from I Think that's fine We can just modify the report and then bring that report back for adoption on the 24th The only other question I would have and then I see Dorothy's hand up as whether the report would provide Context for the forum discussion at the meeting and whether we should amend the report so that it makes it clear that this committee has With help has decided to postpone its final recommendation But to get the substantive information In a report before the council And Dorothy I have a question about the report Could we add what happens if we don't do this Some kind of future thinking we can't add that do you want to know what it is now Yes, so This was kind of a new thing for us and you think for DEP out. I don't know why it was new for DEP But we found out that since we've taken that centennial offline It's now in standby status is called We have five years to Finish a design and begin construction Or else the facility goes Into another category where if we wish to bring it back we have to go through the permitting process again and Describe what is difficult about the permitting process? The difficult part is no one really knows how it will go It used to be pretty straightforward in the permitting process But with the surface the swimming that surface the swimming rules It could be changed a little bit swimming actually only applies to groundwater supplies at this time, but the goal of the the goal of the DEP is to actually come up with some way to make the swimming requirements also apply to surface water systems So what we see applying to the wells and how you have to do minimization or maximization Which is in the room is in the big report too That might have to apply to the groundwater supplies And we may not actually get permission to have a plant that will build or will produce 1.5 Mgd it may be smaller And it may have constraints on when it can operate and those would be built into the permit Where we we run the plant as we need to run the plant now and not based on any constraints we have But again, those constraints can come in the next permit to so we the world of water is changing and It's a little up in the air But it will it will we are in a standby mode now or and it'll go into Uncertified or on If we wait five years, it'll go into a different category, which is worse I Think the other thing to note and I don't know if you want to expand on it And then we need to need to move forward because I want to spend some time in the school bus discussion is that if we Don't do something we take a risk of losing a substantial investment the town has made for a tremendous number of years in acquiring watershed properties that provides surface water opportunity through the Pellum system and You know having watched that And it's been there for a long time. It's just expanded and been made even more secure with additional acquisitions even in the past 10-15 years You know, are we losing a huge investment this town has made over a long period of time or risking loss of it And that's another thing that I think that we need to consider What action do you need to make the report available for the public forum? so Let me test this out of the committee so we can move forward to the school bus discussion That I can work with the vice chair of the committee Kathy and we can revise the report so that it is captures the current circumstance that we have Put this on hold and are waiting until after the forum and we may want to have a motion that We are Suspending our recommendation made at the July 23rd Meeting until we have an opportunity to reconsider it after the public forum And then we can incorporate that into the report Move that we suspend our recommendation until after the July from July 23rd to after the public forum on September 23rd Is there a second I second it any further discussion not from voting Members all in favor indicate by raising hands and saying aye. Aye. Aye So it's five zero And yeah, I would just add in revised in the report We can work with Guilford to make sure we've got a chart or some documentation on the costs and the consequences of inaction So we just have a section that address You know, how do we get to 11 million and I mean it's just adding some paragraphs But we put a chart in or something that If Mr. Mourings willing then that would be helpful to Get his input on the draft before we send it to the council I just had a quick question about the process for our vote voting that Do we have something in place to get a sense of where the non voting members of the finance committee stand? Let me just say respond to that real quickly now and let this guy want to keep moving on to the school bus I'm assuming that if there's an opinion on a motion That would like to do what that any of the three Non-voting members would like to offer When I'm asking for if there's any additional discussion. I really urge You to feel comfortable to come forward and say I can't vote But if I could please consider this comment so that we capture it I think that was a good point to make and I just so when I say that before Voting, please don't hesitate and I was looking in your direction And not in their direction actually as I said that So with that Guilford, thank you very much. This has been very helpful and I Have for anybody who didn't get it additional a few additional copies of the proposed order That would be needed for the centennial plant So they're here for people who need them for the purposes of public information Let me just say that we will be having a presentation of this at our meeting on Monday The 9th for the full council. We will also have a public forum About this on the 23rd public forum is where required that 50% of the time is left to audience comment and Then we move on to the Fincom meeting and the final vote Okay, so with that Our point I Yes Mr. Mangana, do you have anything to introduce in the school bus or shall I just call it mr. Mangana? Okay, thank you. Hello Does everyone have the memo that I Yes There are copies here of the proposed order with the Memo on the opposite side Anybody who needs it If not, I'll leave them up here to another members of the audience and pick them up later if they so wish Sorry now, it's better We so we had a school bus breakdown last year blew an engine at the end of the year and we obtained a quote to repair that school bus And the quote came back at about thirty thousand dollars This is a 2009 school bus. So it's about ten years old And so after some discussion on the school side And reviewing some old articles that haven't been fully expended We decided to request the purchase of a new school bus as opposed to repairing This older ten-year-old bus just the the cost trade-off seems like it would be more Advantages to buy a new bus We usually run two spare buses. So right now we're down to one spare bus in our fleet And it takes two to three months to get a new bus from the time we have Funding to go ahead and buy it. So there's a little bit of a time urgency around getting it approved so we can go out and acquire the new bus And so in the the memo it lists the Articles that we've reviewed the facility directors review these older vehicle articles are all vehicle related And the unexpended balances and we believe we can turn these back to the town And use the basically Equals to what we we would be requesting for a new bus. So when it pull any new funds from the town any questions And I think that the other thing to point out because I realized that there are members of the council who would be Interested in this information You'll notice that this is a proposal and those Mary Lou of course recall these things being done before we were unspent capital items that have been previously appropriated the Legislative body formerly town meeting now town council can reauthorize them to be used for another purpose the listing that you see is equal to is 91,518 32 which is sufficient to cover the purchase of the new school bus If it's a standard school bus, I did because I know that people will be asking questions about the purchase of another electric bus or a Hybrid bus whether those were available options and there's a paragraph on right below the numbers that provides the the response to that information and Basically the answer is is that you couldn't do that with three hundred eight fifty thousand dollars required for An electric bus with the available funds from the source that's been identified So questions from the committee looking to all of you Dorothy just a small one It says gas or diesel but wouldn't we not want to use diesel because it's more polluting Yeah, I Would defer to the facility director who manages transportation, but we have started looking more towards gasoline I think at least one of the last two buses we purchased was a gasoline bus So I think there are some advantages to that Other questions. Yeah, I do you could give us a cost for an all-electric Are there hybrids and I just did I know I'm not supposed to do this while sitting up here I just googled hybrid school buses and I see 35 Kentucky districts take advantage of state and federal grant funding to subsidize hybrid school buses So yeah, so I asked one of our yeah We have about three dealers that sell three different types of buses and so I spoke with one who produces an all-electric bus and And I did some research my own and we I couldn't find he said that there are really no hybrid electric buses Out there right now for school districts like that have the same type of bus that we do I don't know what type of school bus that is but there's different models of school buses and so And he also said that he thinks they'll be coming soon If you look like the PVTA and some of like public transportation You'll see a lot more hybrid school buses out there or hybrid public transportation buses But in the school bus sector, there's really not a good hybrid alternative out there right now So we've looked at full electric we recently bought a fully electric bus So we do have one so we have a good cost comparison for that and since we bought that one I think the price has gone a little higher because of steel tariffs That was his explanation because his quote came in higher than what we actually purchased the bus for so At least from what I've the research I've done and the information I've gotten from a bus professional There really aren't hybrid buses out there that would fit with us If if we go ahead and repurpose the funds for this amount It doesn't leave it open for shopping and looking for what else is out there It's a question, you know You know you already have a price tag and then my more general question is looking how far back some of these Go that it was appropriated but not yet spent Do we as a town like is there a total amount the schools have appropriated by not spent is there Yes, it has that and does that feed into what capital requests come in each year in terms of you could Repurpose already money on the books for Some equipment. I just it's a it's not with this specific thing. Yeah So miss Aldrich our controller reaches out to departments every year just to review our old articles and let her know Which ones can be turned back because they're no longer needed So it would probably be useful to have that at JCP see just at the beginning of the year with big departments If if it's not trivial amounts of money. Yeah, the questions So I think that we are in a place where motion would be appropriate if somebody wishes to make one I just want to point out that What we're doing falls under a different section of the Charter than the other two items we're talking about because this is Repurposing previously appropriated funds not newly appropriating funds, which is why there's no public forum requirement for this one It falls under a different category of the Charter and the Hope that the schools have is that They would like us to vote tonight and they would like the council to vote next week and that's shown on the Plan so I'll open it up to see if there's a motion I'm willing to make the motion as is Dorothy. Do you want the whole thing that we have here or just the The that we recommend that the sum total of $90,000 be appropriated for the purchase of a school bus and to meet such appropriation transferred $90,000 from repurposed prior capital appropriations Yeah, I think except the number should probably be 95 1832 to match the are not So you just what you want 90,000 is fine. Okay, so the motion has been made in Dorothy second. I second it. Yeah Okay, so there's been a motion made in seconded now asking for any thing on the motion I'm looking around Nothing to be offered on the motion itself. Okay, then I Think we can proceed to a vote all in favor of the motion that's on the floor indicate my rising hands It's the unanimous vote of 5-0 Not gonna ask for other votes because everybody voted So that takes care of that item and as indicated previously, thank you Sean Hickory Ridge will not be Taken up tonight Even though it was previously on the agenda Unless but I do and open it up just for a second to see if there were any questions about Hickory Ridge that he wanted somebody wanted to ask right now and Otherwise, I think that the last there are two last things I'd like to do But is there any public comment on any of the items that were on the finance? Committee agenda not the combined program agenda which comes next Do we know if there are other members of the JCPC are out in the hall? Okay, so we know we can just take a couple of minute break. So that takes care of I think our agenda except for one thing and that is a proposal had been made that We set a regular meeting schedule for the rest of the year Just so we can put it on our calendars and with the understanding that if a meeting is not needed We won't meet and the proposal was that we meet Essentially an alternating Tuesdays to be the date following the day following a council meeting and a request as noted earlier because of personal schedule and teaching From miss Pam who teaches at Holyoke Community College and has a commute problem Is that we started to 30 to give her time Between her class and getting back to Amherst to be a part of the committee meetings And you said we would always start at 230 that is Dorothy's request So I'm looking to the committee first I guess I don't have a real strong objection to it. I'm also open to a 10 to 12 morning meeting, you know, I'm not wedded to it But 230 just 10 when we have long meetings that will go late Mary Lou had a comment. Yeah, I'm teaching in the morning, too. I'm teaching from 9 30 to I take that back Let me suggest that we'll send me a schedule of the meetings based on when our town council meetings are I Did have a question you said that I because I have no opinion on this The week before the town council the week of the town or the week after the same week I think that the purpose is that most counselors are going to be in town for the council meetings Because we've scheduled we schedule ourselves to do that and by doing it the day after it Also, we need to write a report. It gives us time to write a report for the next council meeting rather than just be You know, so it gives a full two weeks if something has come up so That's agreeable I don't Think it needs emotion. I'm just gonna go ahead and schedule the meetings according to the agreement It's unusual to have a public comment on this type of subject Okay, I'll do that real quickly and then I want to This is spend this meeting for a few minutes take a break and Then we can be joined by the rest of our members from Actually the way it was posted it is one continuous meeting and there's a second meeting that's been scheduled for seven o'clock But we scheduled this one is the six o'clock to nine o'clock meeting. So we don't want to adjourn They will sit up here. So we are going to add them in a minute, which is why I'm going to take a break and for in a minute The answer to on the centennial plant as we had a report on it, there will be a public forum There'll be a there'll be a presentation again made at the council meeting on the ninth of September on the 23rd of September at the town council meeting There will be a public forum about the centennial water facility proposal and the finance committee has Decided to wait until after the public forum before it takes action on the centennial plant record further action on the centennial plant recommendation, so we will be taking that up at our September 24th meeting. So again September 9th for a presentation to the council at the regular council meeting September 23rd a public forum to hear public comment on the proposal at the regular council meeting September 24th for the finance committee and In October 7th for a vote on the centennial plant I Believe the gentleman asked about DPW DPW was not a topic of discussion during this past meeting During this I assumed that I assumed because you said DPW and what we were talking about DPW is centennial No DPW is there's going to be no decisions on that but it will be topics in the next section of the meeting with that In with the agreement of the committee and of course you're a part of the continuing committee So I'm hoping you're staying Because this we are suspending we are now Going to take a recess I guess is the proper term of the finance committee meeting for five minutes And then I will know to ask Amherst media to if they're ready and we will rejoin To have the next segment of the meeting can start so the meeting is five minute break All right, let me Let me help get some order back into the meeting I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry Get some order back into the room if I may Amherst media you ready to come back on Okay, thank you Amherst media and for those of you who may not be aware of that Amherst media is recording this for future broadcast It was unfortunately They were not able to do live broadcast or telecast tonight because of connection problems There's now a much larger number of people in the Up here in front so I'm going to do introductions for the next because not everybody knows everybody here and I will get to that in a second the Finance committee is now Reconvening after having taken a recess from its meeting at 715, and I'm calling the Join Capital Planning Committee meeting to order at 715 so that both groups are now formally in Session and Lynn and we given that we have a quorum of the council president. We're calling the council meeting Together at also at 715. Thank you So with that I want to start because there's a large number of people here who did I may not know all of each other and Let to so we get to get the introductions and I'll start My name is Andy Steinberg. I'm a counselor at large a member of the town council. I'm also in The peculiar position for this past year, and I hope that I don't have to do this for another year of being both chair of The finance committee and the joint capital planning committee. Hope I can find somebody else to charge at least one of the JCPC next year but in any event That is my introduction and I'm going to go this direction and have each person Introduce themselves by name and say what body that they're affiliated with I'm Kathy Shane I'm a district one counselor. I'm on the finance committee. I'm vice chair Alex Lefebvre Jones Library trustee Tams and Ely Jones Library trustee and both of those are members of JCPC Yes Allison McDonald Amherst school committee and JCPC Eric Nakajima Amherst school committee and JCPC Mandy Joe Hanneke a counselor at large and JCPC Shalini and finance committee member and Lynn town council member of finance committee and member of JCPC Dorothy Pym town and counselor for district three member of finance committee and community resources committee George Ryan member of town council representing district three at the Angeles district two And also on community resources Evan Ross town council district four Bob Hegner resident member of the finance committee Mary Lutailman resident member of the finance committee Sharon Povinelli resident member of the so I want to first of all Thank all of you for being for being here as a part of this very unusual combined meeting of the finance committee and JCPC which is then posted as a council meeting so that if the majority of the council constituting a quorum were present we could Continue with their being able to participate in the discussion is appropriate We've been working for quite a number of years on trying to Replace outdated town facilities We've not constructed a new town building since the police station was built in 1990 We have been talking about four different facilities that are in need of Significant attention and I think most people know that we're talking about an elementary school library fire station because of the integrated pieces of the central fire station and the DPW Department of Public Works facility It will be a challenge to undertake Four major projects and assure that the town meets other capital and operational needs During that period of time while we're trying to do that Including the school's library and general municipal services The major building capital plan is one of the next big challenges for the council The finance committee is the council committee to provide information and guidance to the council in making the Responsible and informed decision That in order to do that we Suggested having this session tonight and these are the goals first of all we wanted to spend a few minutes to Achieve a shared understanding about these major building projects that I just Numerated in particularly we want to talk about what some of the options might be Costs timelines and so I'm going to call on various individuals to make sure we get the presentation done The second goal is to develop a process to provide guidance to the council when it will have to make these decisions In doing that we need to consider how the process will involve finance committee JCPC other counselors library trustees school committee and very importantly the public and fourth We need to view current beta version of a financial management tool because we really want to make that available to the public and So that's the fourth item for tonight's Presentation discussion during each section of the meeting. I will Look to the committees in the council first for their discussion on each topic, but I will to the extent that Time is available for the amount of Time Make sure that we get opportunity for public comment So I will look for public comment at several points during the evening But we are under some severe time constraints so with that said I Think that do you have anything to introduce mr. Bachlemann or Okay So I think that we're going to start with the two community town buildings if I may and Lynn in addition to all of her other Duties that she is just she talked about introduction. She didn't mention. She's president of the council but has been chair of the DPW fire station study committee and In that capacity It's really the appropriate person to do that first presentation for those two buildings Lynn Okay, let me start with a fire station and again, this is a status report. It's not a report of saying this is where we're going Or what it's gonna cost We have two fire stations in town one is in central and one is in north of one in north Actually is still in reasonable condition though It is getting old as well. The one in central station is was built in 1929 there have been three other studies to look at that I chaired the study that was in done in 2006 and The all of those studies recommended that as a town we need better fire protection south of downtown and Thus building a case for the need for a south fire station the We went on and let me just We Did do a feasibility study Regarding fire that was done quite a number of years ago actually And at that time, you know, for example, we looked at the central fire station and realized that if we were going to even replace it It would be cheaper to tear it down build a facade that's similar to what we have and move on However, we really can't afford both the central fire station and a south fire station so we're really at the two station option and What the place that is most advantageous and totally desirable is where the present DPW site is This is for several reasons. It provides direct access on to 116 if there is enough land there and there are And it provides sufficient coverage as well as easy access to be able to get back up into town and do the backup that each of our fire and EMS emergency medical services do with each other but That leaves us with a problem and then what would we how would we go forward? We would term in the final cost for the project. This would include adding to it what we would have to do for net zero the zero energy requirement and that would all be done during the state assist During a study where we would actually look at what the construction costs as best estimates are that we would then come back to the town to do a borrowing or authorization and A decision as with all of the rest of the projects would have to be made as to whether or not we would go out for a debt exclusion override The other project was really the study along with the department of along with the fire station of the DPW fire station Study committee and that committee actually was active up until this last December They have looked at a number of sites along with Looking at most recently one site that is on southeast street That has been brought forward by as an offer from an Amherst College So that there's now actually there were originally nine sites that makes 10 We're still in the process of assessing that site as well as looking at what other options there are We would then move as we would with public with the fire station to a feasibility I'm sorry to a schematic design which would allow us to provide a better cost Estimate and based on that cost of estimate again go through the whole process you do with buildings and that is What can we not do? How can we make it be less expensive and more? Importantly, do we in fact go out for a debt exclusion override? So those are the two buildings in both cases the estimates that you would see in existing reports are very They're tough to use in fact, you really don't get a reasonable estimate until you do a schematic design and Even then you don't have final estimates until you actually move forward to construction Why don't I hold questions? Let's First in Have the presentation. I don't know who is from the schools Okay Sorry, I must forgot to push the button We so there isn't a lot to update really on the schools because since we submitted the MSBA application in last spring The MSBA is planning to visit the town in Early October or mid-October and we expect a decision from MSBA on the project December 11th Parallel to all of that waiting we are expecting to get underway with the Crocker Farms facility study this fall And we also have convened a middle-grade span working group to explore moving sixth grade to the middle school They've met twice last spring and the next meeting is September 23rd We don't have a whole lot to update either We are number two on the waiting list for the grant Which doesn't necessarily tell us when The grant will be approved. I think the earliest possible date. We would be looking at would be July of 20 which would put us in fiscal year 2021 But that's a moving target We are currently we just contracted with Architect firm to update our schematics based on feedback provided by the MBLC So that should be completed And we'll be part of once we have the acceptance and then in tandem with that We've reconstituted the feasibility and design committee Who is also in the process of doing a newly redesigned community outreach program? And that's a committee that's also underway and has started actually had a meeting today reaching out to to people to Give them more information It's not just to reconfirm my understanding is this that we could be hearing from the Board of Library commissioners Sometime early in the next calendar year it depends on The bonding if they put a cap on the bonding As they put a cap on this past year then we would probably go in the next year because of the The two on the two top on the wait list were second would exceed a 20 million dollar cap If that's what the legislature Mandates if the cap is lifted to 25 then we would go sooner So we really have to wait and see what happens with the bonding That's approved by the legislature Next spring Yeah, so just to add on to what Tamsen said so I assume it's similar to the to the school in terms of So one project isn't paid out for in full, right? So if the projects that are ahead of us is say a seven million dollar project They don't just take seven million dollars and allocate that so things are paid as bills come up and so We don't know how the projects that are have already been accepted and are already receiving money We don't know the the amounts that they're receiving. We simply know that we're second in the waiting list And as Tamsen said there is a cap of 20 million. So Yeah, we just we did the MVLC has told us that July of 20 is sort of our reasonable expectation date right now, but We just don't know because we don't know what kind of checks they're writing to the other libraries to know when that puts us up Or if they would even possibly leapfrog us if there's a smaller program under us and the way The balance in the funds would lend to leapfrogging over us and going into say, you know a smaller project So we just we don't know at this point Yeah This point I think we are opening it up to questions on all of the projects since that we've done brief presentations on each one So Kathy, yeah, I just have a quick question on the library and the way the funding agency works When you put in a proposal You had a specified square square footage and a cost And that was I think originally costed out as if it was 2019 construction and if because of the delays and the way the granting authority Works it gets out too much later a year That number never changes. Is that correct and yet you're still would be expected to build what you proposed to build You know, so if you said we can build it for 35 million and now it's five years later And there is built into the amount Escalation to accommodate changes in construction costs that's built into the grant But but when I read the grant it only went out a couple years. It didn't go out to like 2024 2025 Yeah, so there's a 4% escalation cost built out to 36 months. So so yes to your question is The money that we are going to receive Isn't going to change. They're not going to add additional costs. So You know the town could decide if they want to add on to those additional escalation costs or you know We would decide where we would cut to meet the cost that That would be done. Yeah Yeah, this is not a question, but it's point of clarification of the four buildings two of them are Eligible we hope for state grants One is the school building and one is the library the other two the Department of Public Works and the fire station We wish there were a state grant hint, but there isn't So and I think that we all know that the difficult challenge I think and we do in mr. Mangano talks about the Financial planning tool and get into the sum that The affordability of doing four projects ultimately depends upon how much we Allocate for each of the projects and what the timing sequence and is for each one Because just the nature of how things work and So that's one of the challenges that we have is that we have two projects that are grant-driven and We're having To figure out a process that allows us to start working on this with And wanting to know what our certainties and uncertainties are I think it's the best we can do today other questions that anyone front Sorry library trustees, but back to you guys and this This it sounds like the number that we were given Years ago about how much the state would grant us isn't changing no matter cost escalation and My understanding is size of the building might not be able to change so how do you in four percent? We've been on the waiting list three years now We might be on it another two How do you cut? And you probably don't have the answer to this because you're still trying to figure it out But I'm still trying to struggle with how you would cut enough From the project without cutting size to stay within the budget To meet the what the trustees have said to the council our Bond amount might be and the cost of the town might be can you it is first Is it possible to do it without cutting size? And if it's not does the MVLC allow you to cut size? So a couple things and I actually misstated it's five percent. Sorry. I'm looking at the escalation cost I have here so first of all the the cost estimate that was Generated is just that it's a cost estimate so that we can apply for a grant But the actual design process Hasn't been included yet. So the materials that we use, you know, what furniture we I mean There none of those elements have been decided yet And so I think the reality of the situation is once we're actually in the process We have to make those decisions with the architects about what we can and can't do relative to the cost that we have and They're not going to change the additional amount that they're going to give us as I don't think they do with any State agency when they're giving a grant But we certainly you know whether we could raise more funds if we you know tried to stick to the building that we did But I think it's also important to note and I talked about this in town meeting that What what the MVLC is is wanting is a certain Building program which is the certain services that the program services that we're offering in the square footage and There is some flexibility what they originally wanted was a lot more square footage than what where we actually are you know, they wanted closer 100,000 we're at 68,000 so The MVLC wants us to build, you know a better library. They want to work with us. They want to be partners with us So I don't think that means we could cut the building in half But I think that it's meant to be an ongoing process that has back and forth so that we can effectively build The library that our town needs Yeah, I'm looking to see Sharon I have a point of clarification So there's been no discussion about the net zero by-law as in relation to the Jones library is that because it does not apply and If so, which is I just for the audience Has there been is that built are there any? Specific design desires for the library to be net zero So the bylaw specifically did not apply to the Jones library And when we started this process, which actually predates my time on the board, but four years ago really the the What the group at the time that the feasibility committee what they noted was the town's priority was really around historic preservation And since we have limited funds, obviously They decided at that time not to go for lead silver, but it was pretty close to lead silver And in that time given the bylaw that's passed There's definitely a recognition of a change in terms of the town putting more priority on net zero And so that's been very much part of the conversation with the board of trustees as well as with the Feasibility and design committee about priorities So 43% of the overall costs go toward the restoration and renovation of the 1928 portion of the building So if we want to shift more money toward net zero, what does that give and take look like? So that's actually part of the community outreach program that we are working on right now Is in Figuring out sort of as a town and as a community where our priorities and in order to stay within our budget you know, how do we prioritize you know sustainability and The restoration and fixing what needs to happen in the building so that's all part of the discussion and we actually are also in the middle of Creating a sustainability committee and part of the task of that sustainability committee is to inform the design process and to help Bring expertise to that design process so that we are making sure that we're doing as much as we can from Sustainability standpoint for the library Do we know if there are any grants out there for net zero schools and net zero libraries? I Don't know but as as the conversation has shifted toward sustainability That's actually one of the things that we'll be working with this sustainability committee Is that as our priorities have shifted towards sustainability there are probably additional grants that we can look at and You know does that mean that's going to fill in you know Potentially gaps in terms of budgetary or does it mean that we actually are going to have access to do things in the building that We hadn't even originally thought we could do so that's part of the conversations that we're having right now and looking into that Yeah I think all of us Who have looked at these buildings? Know that one of the questions that comes up is what's the full cost? What would it cost to renovate? What is the town expected to come up with and? What else will go into the financing so as we talk about each of these I think it would be Useful to understand that to the extent that we have those numbers and I don't know I since the library has been talking Let's start with them and see if you do So we hired Western builders Couple years ago And we asked them to look at the building in terms of our needs and the estimate that they came up with and we've recently used a 5% inflation To to bring that number up to a 2020 number. So if we were to do Not closing an occupied phase construction meaning we weren't closing the library down to to do the work We're looking at about 10.5 million The 10.5 million does not include a Hiring an architect which would be required for us to fully determine all of the needs around ADA compliance So that's a number That's a partial number And I think we were always hesitant to throw it out because people here 10.5 million when really It's a much larger number because we just can't we don't have the ability to estimate the additional costs because we would have to Pay an architect to tell us what those additional costs would be And it also what else so so I guess That's yeah, so it's that's sort of the best we could do in terms of the basic needs and I would point out to that mean in the in the quote that we've in the cost estimate that we have for the renovation project 1.6 million of was cost estimated for the HVAC system just in the 1928 portion of the building and 962,000 was the cost estimate just for the 1928 portion to upgrade the electrical So the the bulk of a lot of the cost that we have in this project is actually going toward Trying to fix some of the issues are sort of the more expensive issues And the concern that we have is that the town would potentially come close to sound to spending Almost the relatively the same amount But without having any of the restoration work and without having fixed necessarily the design the safety issues the flow issues And not having essentially the library that that our community needs Since we're on TV, I'm gonna move off the library the In the presentation about the fire station in the DPW building Every every presentation about fire has said that the best location is the DPW site So I would love to hear and I know I've already heard some of this But for the benefit of the public is it possible to do the fire building before doing DPW? Is it possible to? Temporarily move DPW somewhere to put the fire station ahead of a DPW construction Have we figured that out when might we figure that out because I think that would help that that that would go into What we're here to talk about is coming up with a plan Mr. Bachman you may have other thoughts on this as well. I know that we've had discussions about it There's been no solid plan that I'm aware of but Paul Thank you. So If the fire is the highest priority is I think that's what you're saying and the location has been identified as where DPW is Is there you would have to relocate DPW? to one or more locations in temporary sites to accommodate that and That would add expense because you would be Creating structures or temporary structures for the DPW to do its work And so the idea that I think we're presenting we're trying to present is to have these two things work As simultaneously so we we get the site moving for the DPW. We're able to demolish The DPW and move forward on the fire station and get these things working Together that's the best-case scenario. It's the cheapest way to do it as well So questions and then I'm going to turn to the public I do just I want to stay where Mandy took us on fire in DPW is I understand Some of the internal discussions that are now going on as can things be faced could you do? part of what DPW needs but not all and I guess I would ask the Simultaneous I know the piece of land and I Lin often says you've heard the answer to that before but I'll ask the question again that the current location of DPW can't accommodate both But if if does that answer change at all if you said but we're not talking about The 80,000 square footage DPW we're talking about a headquarters building or an office building or some part of it So I don't need an answer right now, but is that is that was going to be parts of the discussions on You can do you probably can't do part of a fire station You just need to do it But then how do you potentially phase it to think in terms of a smaller version or Put out of a longer time period So I want to make sure I understand what you're asking is the are you saying could the DPW and the fire Co-locate on the same site could they if not if DPW wasn't going to be as envisioned Everything in one package so the office building part where the engineers are but not all the equipment and the equipment Be stored in another location. So that kind of the thinking on Which could you could also move it all but you don't need as big a footprint if you're doing something smaller All in one place so the fire station will take up most of the DPW site So thinking that we could utilize that to continue to hold DPW is probably not realistic You know we have you know We'll continue to think of everything that's possible because we've you know receive feedback from the public and You know the council Counselors have said we everything's on the table. We want to keep thinking about things And so having it phased and one of the questions that has been raised Is can you build this a bit of piece at a time? So you're not building the whole grand DPW complex at once and the answer to that is yes And if that's a financial situation where we can only build the core of the DPW the rest of it We wait for that. That's an option that we don't have numbers for that, but that's certainly something that can be done However, I want to say that for the fire station. That's really not an option you you have to move all of your personnel to another location the kinds of options that would allow us to Trim back on a fire station are things like do we add a training room and a community room or Don't we and those are big discussions Anything else before? Right now. I'll come back to the committees and boards But I know there was at least one person from the public And Yeah, I need you to come forward need to please sit down in front of a microphone. Otherwise Amherst media will not be able to Pick pick up what you have because they are recording this for future use and I would like you to introduce yourself to the committee My name is Richard Bogarts. I live on Willow Lane in the misty meadows area which will be impacted if The DPW is moved to one of the locations that are under consideration Hmm. I wanted to Respond to Lynn's comments about cost the importance of thinking about cost The easy part of measuring cost is how many dollars is it gonna cost and That you come up with a number and it may be only approximate, but still you feel. Ah, yeah That I know But then there are the other elements of cost which are much harder to assess like what is it going to cost the people living in the particular area to have the bells and whistles and dings and and The machinery Running is there are going to be a smell cost is there going to be a cost to those individuals in terms of the Values of their properties and so on. That's another element of cost which it seems to me Even though it's difficult needs to be taken into consideration I I'm hoping to hear at some point some reassurance that the people who make this decision will be able to grapple with the almost irresistible temptation of 99 years for a dollar Wow Maybe you could get it for 50 cents and that would be cheaper, but you couldn't get it much cheaper Than that that it seems to me in terms of cost is going to be Have a monumental weight. I hope that the other concerns and considerations of the people Who will be involved Are taken into account? Okay, thank you all the commas Hi, my name is Maria Kopiki. I'm one of the vice chairs of the Fort River School Building Committee, and I think that This group of individuals as well as the full-town council in the whole town would do well to Pay attention to the work that we've done over the past two years. We're going we are wrapping up our work and Hope to be presenting that to you We are the only feasibility committee for a building that has studied just some of the issues that you're talking about We have taken into account the net zero bylaw We have looked at multiple options multiple renovation options Multiple enrollment options a new construction option multiple energy efficiency options in EUI 30 and EUI 50 procurement methods from general contractor design bid build to contract contract construction manager at risk And we've come up with detailed cost estimates and detailed ideas to give Information about what the cost of different ways to approach our elementary school building issues can involve This is important work, I hope that you guys read the final report that will be producing I'm sure that we would be happy to talk to any of you about this, but the nuts and bolts and the cost that you're talking about Are Provided in the work that we've done so I really encourage you to look at what the Fort River School Building Committee has done Thank you Thank you This is not a response to your comment. It is a piece of information We in fact are having a joint meeting with the school committee on The 17th of September in this room at six o'clock for the purpose of hearing the Fort River School study Anything else in public comment or comment on this segment of the agenda? so hearing none, I think that We really can move forward and in doing so I've since step back for a second the issue of location of Any facility is always a difficult one and We're going to have to be very Thoughtful in how we look at that as a council of course The purpose of this discussion is we're thinking about What it is that we need to know about the financial Implications of what we're doing the How much it's going to cost How when we're going to build these buildings how we're going to pay for them in what the Dollar and cents impact is going to be think that the location question Was raised is not something that the council is Going to take lightly at all, but it is May not be in the finance committee arena where that discussion principally occurs and that's the only thing I would add So we do want to talk a little bit about the question of how it is so we can move forward with a process and We're into very Difficult place because we know that all of this is coming, but we seem to be having Real problems pinning down the when question because two of the things rely on grants and The town buildings requires some just moving along a process that was previously described But what we said and then I'll go straight to the agenda on this Consideration of a process to provide guidance to the council when it will have to make decisions regarding these possible projects The when question it was part of that agenda item statement And we're still a little bit in an uncertain place about that, but I think that it's still Important that we think about What kind of process we will want? And so that we're ready to move forward when it is time to move forward and that was the What I'd like to see if there any Comments on it is to how we can involve All of the important players including our taxpayers in our community in In this discussion to provide the guidance to the council will make the council Consideration the best that it can be So open it up to any Thoughts that people might have and I Will start with something if I Have to get it just to provoke a Little bit in that is It's One thing that is struck me as being very important is that we use council District meetings in an effective way To provide both information to the public and to hear from the public and that we also use the forum process that is provided and The schools had a very good model for that in having a series of meetings around the statement of interest before the statement of interest was submitted and I think we can use their Very good model and experience to help us but Can we Effectively do anything before we're really ready to move on the first project and Once you start moving on the first project we have to start sequencing all of the projects into it. So How and when to involve the public Yeah, Bandy So I'm gonna jump a little bit to number three and two because they go together There's this indication of a financial analysis tool and some of us got it last night others have had it for a while and it's very sobering and One of the things that shows is unless they're Sequenced really far apart There's no way to do all four close together without an override And when you start looking at the cost of the override, that's a large chunk percentage additional on top of a Any households Property tax bill You know, it's it's many hundreds of dollars Foreign average tax bill for two of the if you override two of the four and even if you override one It can still be a couple hundred dollars So I think one of the first things we need to do before we come up with a plan And I am a counselor that would love to have a here's when we start this one and three years later We're gonna do this and and be able to present that but I think we need to Absolutely have an idea as to whether the residents of this town Can accept Overrides and at how much they might be able to accept overrides We know they voted for an override for a school project a couple years ago That was a lower number than we'd be asking if we asked to override two Projects in the next couple of years and so I think some of the first outreach We need to do to figure out a Sequencing and an ability of how quickly all of these projects can be done is how much are we as a counsel? willing to ask the taxpayers to raise their taxes and How much might they actually vote for because if they're not going to vote for them and Approve them and we still aim to finish four projects that changes the timing of the projects Substantially and so I think some of the first outreach has to be a talk about overrides Yeah, I was going to build on that and I think it is sobering and one of the virtues of The tool or looking at all of them together is that it is sobering this is Challenging and it's much better to be thinking about the group than one at a time because otherwise you can't see the impact And if we're going to be talking to people about priorities, they have to see the scope and we're not even talking about How much money do we have each year that we can spend? Without building buildings and if we start building buildings Can we keep at least doing some part of the road repair that we all want at least keep fixing the buildings? We already have so some core Maintain some of the maintenance because we don't want to let everything fall down while building a new one but having that conversation along with overrides when will be really important of And when I when we've started we did a little bit of this up in district one and did a quick conversation Providing people with this our residents is kind of information people get it really quickly and they start thinking hmm You know what are my priorities and I could do that but And that starts this conversation on you know, where are we going and when can we do what? Paul Thanks for letting me chime in so this is really unusual to have so many elected leaders in one room having a intense discussion about What what has to happen for the town? So you you are the decision makers? It's really important that you're here and I also think that it's We have to recognize that This is the first it's a kickoff So it's it feels ambiguous. It feels unwieldy because Under the public meeting law open meeting law you have to have this conversation is messy It is is in public on tv and that's what it is So feel comfortable that that's what you're doing It's okay to say wow this seems crazy and say things that you may not know the answer to I think an important thing that hopefully will come out tonight is to recognize We're also in a new territory. This is the first time the council is here making a significant decision So recognizing that the council's role ultimately is to make the decision about whether to place an override A debt exclusion override on the ballot or not that rest that's a decision by the council The decision to whether borrow money or not that decision rests with the council So those decisions The while the elect other elected boards have really important roles They ultimately will have to go to the legislative body Which is which is the council and I think the council has by virtue of this meeting Utilize is going to be using utilizing jcpc and primarily the finance committee to advise the council So we sort of know how that conversation has to take place What we've been hearing tonight is that there's A lot of information that we have to to educate ourselves about Sean mingano has developed this tool, which is a pretty remarkable tool of and it's it's he's developed it in such a way it needs more work because it's it's Doesn't have all the sweet little pictures and stuff like that on it, but it really is a powerful tool People will be able to utilize it And I think that gives information To the public and that's an important piece of this because your decision making needs to engage the public There isn't a magic Formula someone's going to come in and do a PowerPoint and say here's the path forward It doesn't work that way because all the decisions all the things that you've identified What is our appetite for taking on debt? What what is our appetite for whether how do we balance the historic preservation versus Net zero energy how are we going to balance those things? Those are really complex decisions But the good thing is those decisions will be made in this room by the people at the table up there So you're in the decision making role whether you like it or not. That's what that's where you're going to be We are in a situation where there's pent up demand we it's been decades since we built a new building We've been remiss as a community and not addressing our capital needs previously And but the sort of blunt reality of the expenses is just dramatic So I think that's the struggle in conversation and you're going to talk to all the people who elected you and you Run into every day and have that conversation Um, but I think where we are today is that we are at a prime time to have the conversation The the council has is elected. It's got systems working The fall is the time to have a pretty forceful conversation. We will know a lot more on december 11th We will know more uh middle of next year for the for the library more pieces will be coming into into Clarity for everybody. And so a a conversation Continuing with that and Andy started off with I think so there's two things one is using the tool and having that out into the public It's really important for people to sort of get the grim reality of what the numbers look like and then Utilizing district meetings or whatever other thing you want to do this to forcefully engage the the public Into what it means for them individually and their tax bills And and their needs and what their what their aspirations are for the community So my only message is feel comfortable that this is a beginning conversation It's not going to be the end conversation and it feels a little bit, you know out there, but it'll it'll be The conversation is the important part. Thank you It's right like about paulie always reminds us why we ran Reminds us that we have this one to decide this is a big decision. It is huge and the model That we've been playing with and shana has been perfecting actually goes back to sandy polar And I know at least a couple people were in the same room I was in when he first unveiled this model and what we've learned since then Is a lot more and there's a lot more complexity in the model Then we had at the time and so back then we would look at this model and we would say oh, we can do it all Sure, you can do it all the question is at what price and that's the question that we as counselors are going to have to have Our conversations with our constituents and understand where this town stands on what at what price And at what price if we don't Because we've been doing that game for a long time So um as much as I find this Exciting it's also uncomfortable And it's not going to get more comfortable as we go along. It's just going to get a little more uncomfortable But we have to do it and if we don't do it That means the next council is going to have to do it and if they don't do it. It's just going to fall I mean dpw is already falling on itself And uh, we have other issues out there certainly into school is a big issue. So I um I'm gonna say thank you paul for that statement of Go after it because we really have to it's uh, we put it off long enough so i'm gonna uh Take the privilege for a second of essentially recognizing myself and just saying a couple things and then um go back to Table for a few minutes and then to the public But uh two things one is I think that Lynn has touched on something that is really important is that is part of our community education process I think it's really important that we Do everything we can to Inform the public about the consequence of not acting um And uh, you know the dpw Building was talked about um, but unless you've actually been there and seen How difficult it is to effectively run A department that does as much as that one does takes care of our streets takes care of our snow plowing does the Manages our water system, which we heard about earlier manages um Our parks, uh takes care of um trees To tends to the town commons does all of the things that That department does in the kind of facility that it has and um the it's really like A department that Could literally fall in on itself in the department. We really rely on if we do nothing and um So and I think that's true. We've had a lot of the good discussion because of the Statement of interest that we had to apply for for the schools About the schools about the cost of doing nothing The library has had some significant discussion This was pointed out to the fact that essentially doing nothing it costs us 10 million dollars anyway Because we have deferred repairs that needed to happen. So that's part of what we as educating the community Through the council need to understand um, and the other thing just uh because I was the I'm the only one here who was on the select board that actually had to vote on an override um, it is not an easy decision because You're first of all asking voters to Significantly do something that affects their own taxes, but for significant benefit The other element of an override is decision is What you decide you can ask for the override for and Um Is has been kind of recognized but I'll say a little bit more clearly Some projects can be paid for simply within The current budget because we have bonds on things that we've Done in the past that are expiring and you can use that as mechanism for funding But we can't do four projects that way and so there is a little bit of a choice element When I was on the select board we did vote to ask the voters to Prove The school override because we thought that that was a good way of obtaining Not only the funding but community Input as far as whether they really wanted to see that school. It was being described built Uh, we all know it happened. I'm not going to talk about that further, but It's not an easy decision to make and those are the factors that Struggled with and it was a struggle. It was not a decision made lightly So having gone There i'm going to go back to eric who had asked for recognition Thank you And I appreciate the town manager giving us the advice that were if we're slightly thinking out loud That's actually okay At the moment it's funny kind of funny because when for jcpc we meet in the morning and even when there's an audience There's sort of a feeling of casual free willingness that Is entirely absent in the evening You feel like you should be on your best moment, you know intellectually and otherwise But and I appreciate the fact that the counselors started off by talking about The cost of these projects how they'd be potentially financed What the burden might be on taxpayers and how to sequence them because I think that the challenge That we have I think is profound as a community And unfortunately it is complex and it's nested so you you can't pull apart looking at The potential financial burden on the community and on taxpayers individually Without also getting into some of the project details about How are you brat if you're in a grant program? What are the constraints of that program? Where are you at liberty to make changes if you're looking to make changes if it's a local project? What are the alternatives you look through and the the problem is the the conversation is always fresh To the person in their house who's just looking up and picked up the bulletin and said oh gosh I guess this conversation is more advanced than I thought it was I better start dialing into this before I have to vote or before I have to think about what's going to impact me Into that person The fact that we had did a I mean I remember this study in 2006 and I recently reread it for the fire station I'm for for sheer fun and And it's it's it's terrific and it's interesting and it's an informative But the reality is the vast majority of the people in this community have never looked at and aren't going to look at it And so if there are details in there about how many minutes you can respond to A fire call or or you know how ENT's respond to a medical emergency They're not going to know that it's going to be their first time looking at this The reason i'm bringing that up is because the challenge I think for the council in relationship To our committee and the different boards is going to be continually Refreshing and organizing a conversation in which we're sensitive to the broader financial impacts and issues and sequencing But also we recognize that we have to understand what degrees of freedom we have within our individual projects And it continually engage the community in a in a dialogue that goes between what we're doing in our specific project proposals Where there are changes that can be made? How do they relate to needs the community has? How does it affect overall price? And then if you're in a state program with the vital bit of the program is One of the challenges is if you're serving on a committee and you have people who are really passionate about what they do It's easy to go from being Somebody who's doing their best work to put their best foot forward and just you know doing Good work To becoming a passionate advocate and particularly the further you go down the road The more you get locked into Whatever your project concepts or details are and the more and the reason i'm saying this is because For the members of the public who are going to we know for a fact Are going to pop into this discussion at different points and at different levels of knowledge We have to meet them. They're not going to meet us period And if we're too locked into a project concept in a price tag Then what we're now doing is we're trying to sell people On something rather than bring them along in a way that's always going to have to feel on some level collegial We're lucky one of the reasons why miss mcdonald and i weren't talking earlier about all the details about the price tag and sequencing Of the school project is that really what we discussed last spring was a project concept and a demonstration of need Which is what goes into the soi What if we get accepted into the msba program one of the first things we have to do Is is go through a rigorous process of evaluating different sites Evaluating potential enrollments and validating what we think we should be doing looking at different alternatives That you have to present alternatives around renovation or new construction So even if even if some people or even many people think they know where we're going We're going to have to have a mediated conversation with the public with the council with others around how we might proceed With the new elementary school. That's all to the good though Because it means ideally what the the school building committee will do in that situation Is work with you actively have the school committee work with you actively to organize a public conversation Which toggles between the design and programmatic needs of a good school building And the conversation that you're having are on good discreet gracious How do we pay for all this and at what time and what's the impact? So i mean i know that wasn't a lot of answers But i was trying to what i was what i'm trying to convey and what i'm really arguing for Is as we're moving forward and working on this we have to organize As clear a conversation as we can And allow for the fact that all the things are going to be on the table for discussion Not because some of the some of the answers are mutable. Some of them may not be mutable or changeable, but because Someone's going to have a question. We're going to have to give them an answer We're going to have to listen to them and think about these alternatives And and i and and will be to us if it's not extremely well organized as a conversation Everyone's going to get lost And the more that happens the more we're going to start mistaking sort of facts good analysis For a rhetoric and persuasion and at that point given the complexity and the price tag of what we're talking about we're dead One or more projects is dead because people are going to get lost in the shuffle And they're not going to handle the price tag. That was really long on my part. I'm sorry, but I was cogitating on this for a while Dorothy We've been talking about this for a long time, but it's true We haven't been talking with each other so we don't know a lot of things about our own priorities I think that what the council needs to do To make this possible and to keep us from being just starting it up and spinning around and around Which we've kind of been doing to some extent is that when we get the information that we were getting pretty soon about state matches To the school and the library And using the tool to keep us within some sense of reality Making a timetable of when different things will begin and end Knowing that as you say the details of all of these things will be really very active and going forward But at least if a member of the public will know, okay, the town has made a commitment We're going to do these things and we're going to do them. We think In this order And it's going to take so many years five years seven years ten years Whatever it is and that we will then bit by bit fill in the details and take care of them otherwise, we're just going to be Wish we'd never thought of doing four things and said we're going to do one thing and when we finish that we'll think of the next thing But the thing that's wrong with that Is that when five years from now ten years from now and something of one of these institutions fails collapses becomes totally useless We're going to be starting playing a big game of catch-up. So I think that we we know that we have to do a lot of things We can't do them all right now, but we'd like to But we make a plan and we get going on it and we make the decisions as we get as the facts come in So i'm one of those people who got the tool last night and I have not had a chance to look at it because i've been in meetings Most of the time but I've said this before I think one of the difficult things is you know I know my project well You know, I did know the school because that's a particular interest, but I don't necessarily know all the ramifications around dpw and fire and You know, I think what's really hard to quantify are You know, it's it's easy to say these are our costs to build these new projects But what's really hard to quantify is the cost if we don't And whereas the tool if the tool is plugging in you know ten million dollars for the library if we don't move forward Which is again why we hate to put that number out because that doesn't include architect fees It doesn't include abatement It doesn't include full compliance with ada which is triggered once we hit a certain threshold and so Even the number we're using in the tool isn't The right number the right number might be 15 million We don't know and but I think that's probably for the school too, right? Like we didn't know we were going to put those boilers in until right. I mean so I struggle with how do we best? quantify What the costs are to the taxpayers and to the town When we don't move forward And is there some way that we can have consistency from project to project and I mean, I don't even know if that's an option but It feels like school does one thing library does one thing dpw does another thing which makes it For me hard to sort of put everything together on a big picture and really be able to understand all the numbers Yeah, Sean I'm just gonna respond to that really quickly When we get to the conversation about the development of a five-year capital plan, we'll come back to that So that when we really dive deep into that, how can we get that information in a consistent way? So I think that what we might be helpful And I was gonna suggest to everybody here and see if there's agreement Till it Sean speak for a few minutes about the model and do whatever demonstration that he's prepared to do tonight I don't know if you've had a chance Those of you looked at it to look at it. That would give you a chance to ask him about it and then Turn to public comment because I'd like to make sure that we have opportunity for public comment about Everything that we've been talking about As far as what is a process to Really engage the community and make sure that we are making informed decisions And the model is a part of that but that's really the question that I think that's on the table for discussion And I would welcome any comments the public has On that subject as we get to it. So Sean All right, so um my plan is to Run two models or two scenarios and then we'll talk about sort of the the feedback the input things we need to change So I'm going to try to make this more interactive. So I'm going to look for a volunteer Sitting in front of me somewhere. Um, who wants to I'll pop in your assumptions, but we'll go through each step and You get to decide what we're going to model. So Raise your hand if you are excited to do that Not seeing much I was going to look to Eric first because he's my boss, but he's not raising his hand. So I'll go Kathy Okay, Sean had already made sure I was willing to volunteer, but you you really volunteered so I'm always willing to do this the reason I put this forward is because Kathy's on the finance committee and the finance committee has seen multiple versions of this Mandy just saw the first saw the version for the first time When we sent it out to the committees It's still in beta version by the way for everybody knows we're trying to Move it from beta to final version so we can get it available to the public as quickly as possible And that's why that's part of this discussion tonight So I wanted wanted to pick on Mandy to do it because she's a newer user Perfect sounds good. So this is actually version 1.3 So we're going to start with step one. So there's there's some version info instructions glossary Those things will need to be fine-tuned once we really settle on what this looks like But that should hopefully be an easy part But we're going to go through step question one And we'll just go one project at a time. So for the library Do you want to model a the ad reno the the mblc project or do you want to model A repair estimate of 10 million I want to model the ad reno. Okay. So that's what we're going to select and when do you want to do it? three and So 23 Yeah, I think I think from the most recent charts the earliest construction would start would be around 2023 Alison can you define starting year? Is that start of construction or start of project? Or is it the borrowing of the money? Yeah, it's sort of more tied to the borrowing when you have to start paying bills Why do you include the The mblc funds because they're just going to be given to oh, they're not That's one of the critiques. I've heard and we're going to look at this. So there's behind the scenes the grant funds are being deducted This is just so the original way Concerns me that it looks like the total That's a concern I've heard. So I think one piece of feedback I have is Either change those options to be the net cost of the town Or put some more context so that people know that the grant funds are being subtracted So we'll talk let's go through the model and then we'll save all that good feedback for the end Can we do 2022 so right now 2023 was the earliest because let's do that one Well, because the chart I have the chart I have has 2023 is the the earliest But we'll stick with 2023 But that's an easy fix Do you want to fund it from a debt exclusion or existing capital funds? I want to try existing capital funds And then what term do you want to borrow it over is 30 the longest we can borrow on a soul then 30 for that All right. Now we're on the fire station. So we've got three options 20 25 30 million 20 And let's see can we do 2026? Yep And existing capital funds or debt exclusion Sure existing capital funds You're making the call here. So and 30 is all on you. I want that one 30 years to public works You have 25 30 or 35 30 And what year? Can we do 2022? Yep. That's an earlier year. Yeah, that's only two years away And existing capital funds 30 years and 30 years So those are the sort of the simpler ones the school gets a little More nuanced. So the first step of the schools is to choose. Do you want to do So what are a new 600 student school? We have three options and again, it's just to give a range of different costs based on What the final output? It's important to note. There's no study of a 600 student school yet All the cost data sort of extrapolated from the Fort River feasibility study, which was mentioned earlier And again does have really good data So this is all extrapolate. So do you want to do the new 600 student school? I want to do the two school option both Renault both Renault. Okay. And again, these figures are In here our estimates pulled from that Fort River feasibility study So if you do that, this gives you Two options to go through. So the model right now Assumes one MSBA one non MSBA. So for the MSBA project Can I ask if we get into the MSBA program this fall? When is the earliest the MSBA grant would construction start? I'm trying to make the years somewhat reasonable When this fall that would be Or Yeah, why don't we say 2022? It could be a year later. Okay Um, do you want that important to be debt excluded or existing capital? And 30 years, um, no, let's do 20 Years 20. Okay. This is good I'm a little afraid of what we're gonna see No, I know And wildwood if we're not doing an MSBA grant 2022 So same time some same time same time And existing capital funds a debt exclusion And can I change the all of them to 30? Yeah, no one liked me trying to always It's good to grow it up to 30 for both of them All right, so those are the sort of the build the project specific stuff and then there's a number of Prompts or questions about sort of global stuff. Um, so estimated borrowing rates That seems reasonable for today's three percent time. So three Let's go over to number three says so some of these other than the library all of the The library net zero doesn't apply to the school figures net zero was already factored in but for the fire station and DPW net zero hasn't been factored in yet. So So the question here is what if any do you want to have as a markup for fact Can I ask what the school net zero markup? Factor was it was a really big range depending on whether we lease solar panels or don't lease solar panels depending on what? heating source we use I think I've heard in general it could be five to seven and a half percent But we want to give a range, but I think it really it's really depends on some buildings that count Was there alexa? Do you have a question? Well, I just because we've been talking about this the library My understanding was that you were looking at a percentage for net zero just of new construction costs So when you were taking that percentage not to put it on the whole amount But just to look at this doesn't so this doesn't apply to the library at all Just assumed if it was a rule given to us that it would apply generally and since those are renovation He said it was already in the schools. Yeah, this is fire station and DPW So really the only projects that this affects are fire station and DPW I was just asking if the percentage used for the schools was a percentage of the new construction as opposed to a percentage I believe it was. That's that's was the question. Yeah And then a cost escalation factor Right now four percent Percent for art. No, all right It's gonna make one chart really boring, but it's okay And then last question is How much do you want to allocate towards other capital needs in town? So this would be for everything that jcpc covers so the roads New equipment three and a half million number. All right, so that's most of what you have to do So we're going to scroll down So this chart shows The sort of outlay of resources from our existing capital fund. So this is going to only show the projects here Um That were selected from existing capital So the green bars are existing debt as it runs off These yellow bars are tied to what was selected for ongoing capital needs. So roughly three and a half million going forward Yep Cross our fingers that it changes. Yeah And then these individual bars correspond to the different projects So the gray bar is the projected debt payment for the dpw based on the assumptions The purple is the projected debt payment for the library based on the assumptions and the red Is the projected debt payment for the fire station and I'll just again to illustrate if If we said for one of these schools that it was going to be from existing capital You'll then see that pop in The so the those are the expenses or the the outflows of resources those bars that stack on top of each other We're comparing those to this black line. That's our existing what we're going to call existing resources for capital funds It's the 10 percent of the tax levy That right now this past year we're at nine and a half percent But our goal is to get to 10 percent for this next year And those funds are dedicated towards capital And so that's mostly what this chart or this little box says This little alert here is meant to draw your attention to whether This is affordable or not and so this shows how much over the black line The expenses are or how much the bars exceed the black line in total so not on average anything with that But in total so for all the years that they exceed It's about 29 million dollars. So a red x means probably not affordable. So sorry Um If it was a if it was yellow so and these can be changed again based on what you think the public would What would be best is um yellow is between zero and 10 million So if the overage was only between zero and 10 million that would be yellow because we do have some reserves And some other ways to potentially cover, you know, small overages in any given year And then if it's under zero it would be a green check mark Um, this just sort of sort of shows the outstanding debt in total As we go so as new project come on it would keep increasing and then get paid off And these are really basic sort of debt Repayment models at some point the financial advisor will come and present to us more complicated nuanced You know probably less expensive ways to to address the debt So there's one more fill on the blank. Um, so this is the debt exclusion impact chart. So we um Thank you, anthony delaney for helping me with this. We um Put in a box here where you can put in your property value or any property values So what's our average property value in town? 350 so 350 so if you put in 350 I swear this works on my computer Yeah, I think that's I think this is actually a learning moment. Um Mine worked this morning. So it might be your keyboard. Is the keyboard connected? Yeah, mine Let me see if that type. Let's me type anything Oh, you know it may be because the way it's locked. I don't know. I think it's good now So for now, well, I guess now we'll do it for the next one. We're going to say half a million But the way it's supposed to work if it was would allow me to adjust it Is that you put in whatever value you want and this will scale and show you what the Sort of the life of that would be so right now you've got two projects that are debt excluded in the same year So there's a spike in the year that that debt exclusion hits And then it would be paid off and then go away If you change the year just to show you how this works If you made this 20 25 or something like that You know, you'd see the first one kick in and then the next one kick in And then down below we didn't select percent for art But if we did this would show, you know of this total cost What percent of that debt exclusion was related to the the half percent for art Sorry to say half percent for art And so that's it so can we do one more do we have time for one more? Okay, is it kind of call on an audience member that's up to you I was thinking we could pilot it with the public what what I would suggest is take mandis and stretch the years out You know to you know, just on if you spaced them out over 10 years. Does the world look any better? Okay, and I know the answer, but I'm just you know, what's nice about the model is that that's not as exciting as what I was hoping to do Well, let me stretch it out first and then we'll call on somebody to come really quickly give us new assumptions Yes, that's a good idea. So let's stretch out, um, you know, let's just say that elementary school was 2030 and Um, so the Department of Public Works was leave that alone with the fire station 2028 so as you do that, you know spreads out when these payments kick in and So that really didn't make much of an impact. So I didn't do a good job stretch it out But you can see how it works. Um, you kind of got to think about it a little bit more when you say, you know Space not the projects every so many years. Um, but with the percent for arts If I check that as a yes That line will look very similar to the line above but much smaller dollars Um, so this is would be the portion of the dead exclusion related to the percent for art All right, can I call on an audience member real quick? I've always wanted to call somebody up on stage Yeah, the only chance I'm going to get to do that audience member who would be interested I think you know a lot of people would be willing to pay four or five dollars a year for Some great art projects in town Is that what i'm seeing right sir, you're gonna You're gonna go through these and pop in your assumptions. You're going to let me oh, you want me to populate the entire Oh, jeez. Okay, sorry a whole new model. Oh boy. All right. I'm working through the kinks. I'm not really ready to do this Um, so you want me to change the entire thing. Whatever you want to do All right library that right. It's hard for me to get a sense of the years Oh, make note of everything that is difficult All right. Well, so I'm having trouble seeing this here. I'm gonna make it big. Thanks All right, so the first thing I know that I would change would be let's say we do something like this And so, you know, what if we got a let's as soon as we could get to that Let's just say the money comes in we'll do that here Dead exclusion 30 years. Okay Library Let's do repair push that back further fire station Make that a little bit sooner let's see And then DPW will keep that we'll do that after fire. All right, so we've got 22 23. Well, actually here when I switch that you're sorry If I want to space these out more, but okay keep present for art. Okay. Let's see what that looks like Yes Funding source. Where am I missing the funding source? Do you want any more changes? Are you you good? Let's see if we have to do a second dead exclusion for the library For the repairs. We wouldn't have to do that's 10 minutes over. Let's are you happy with the school option? Is that what you'd like to model? Yeah, okay Yeah, that's what he's got. That's what I have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay All right, present for art Okay, so let's see that. So actually look that's actually But in general this works from an existing capital funds standpoint. Yeah, let me make it smaller so you can see the full So so this shows that now it's still a little bit over but not Significantly over so this has turned to a yellow Be aware, but it's still doable Outstanding debt sort of the same So the problem is the the impact on the Property tax is now with 500,000. This is substantially higher than it was under the first one But if we were to get that down to 350, right that would probably bring it down to something like 800 Really disappointed in so that's not bad Not bad. Let me see if I can undo this real quick I think it's the keyboard That would be tough for me if it was a keyboard not being on don't don't tell my it director that's gonna be That's gonna be really bad All right, so There we go, so it's you can see how it scales You saw that now But yeah, so you can see the two different debt exclusions based on what year they kick in and then the percent for art Same thing 350 a year max $3 I want to thank you. All right All right, so I'm gonna get my notebook and we'll start taking notes of what you'd like to see changed Okay, so lind one of the things that Going go back to The one with all the wonderful colors Is there any way with this model that we can front load A little more of the other capital like sidewalks, etc and Then scale it back Later Yeah, just I mean so basically the um the uh How much allocated towards other capital needs in town if we wanted to add Levels to that we could it's just how many levels and sort of what the time frame is But it would be that'd be fine if that's what we wanted and and what do we spend now paul? About five thousand five million a year. Yeah, some are five million a year It does seem like five thousand doesn't buy much has to be five and what are we at right now on this? Three and a half But but linda we actually each year we're allocating more like three and a half because the rest is going to pay Debt prior debt prior, you know, so in terms of new capital, it's more coming in at three and a half Thank you With respect to the outstanding debt, do we have a limit there was one point where we talked about 100 What was it 100 million being the limit? Yeah, so there is a limit But one thing we learned from our financial advisors that the um the school projects are not subject to that limit So it made the limit not as much of a the limit itself not as much of a concern You still have to be concerned generally with how much debt is outstanding But that fixed limit is not as big of a It's not as close as we thought it would be shown just to quality I think it's only the msba school funded projects It so that we built a second school without any msba that would have to go with within. Yeah, we'll confirm that but I think that's correct so comments about the There's one comment that was made Regarding library and I actually had sort of put forward the same comment And that is that The drop-down boxes sort of camouflage one piece of reality by comparing the Amount for renovation at 10 million dollars to the total cost including the grant Makes it look like a big differential If you take the number that is after the grant and after expect, you know hope for donations and historic tax credits Then the differential between renovation and What the cost to taxpayers is for the new library Is very different And so what I'll do for that one because I think it's an easy fix is I'll try to for any of the options that I have grant funds I'll put like a total cost Slash net cost to the town or something like that is In that drop-down menu. So it'll be for the library and the school msba options. I can put that in there to illustrate Yeah, I would add also. I mean again You know, this was the hesitancy by the trustees to go out to western builders because here we are on this 10 million dollars, right? And the cost of architects alone is like 10 percent right to do the design work And then the ADA work that will be required we will have to go full I mean we want to but we'll have to go full compliance. So I don't know if we're really talking 15 million You're adding an escalation cost every year. And so, you know, it creates this illusion and then if we look at doing it in I don't know what year did you do bill like in like in five more years, right? Like so now my escalation call like even if I haven't even added the architect fees, right? And I haven't added my escalation costs have already taken it up and beyond so I mean to me It really creates a false Sense of what the numbers really are around the library and part of our problem is we don't really know what they are So I don't but but putting a number out there Makes it look like it's a real number and it's not so I would Rather not have a number that's creating an illusion But you know, I mean however in in theory You could take apart that estimate and say you're going to come to jcpc and say this year we want the roof Next year we want highback, you know, we want we want the pieces because you've been delaying Those with thinking you're rebuilding a whole building So you wouldn't have to come with one 10 million redesign you could come It's it it would be very different than rebuilding and expanding a library But it doesn't have to be A full design it could be in pieces And there's just no easy way to put something. I mean we could do that with the school So there's no easy way to put that in here that We could live with the school if we were willing to spend a lot of money to fix it So so let me clarify when I say design What I mean by design is the design specific to ada compliance So like we have to get that so and and this is a piecemeal quote that is but again It's it's like getting a quote, but leaving like we left the roof off, you know I don't know how much a call, you know, I mean like it's it's a significant enough portion That just putting the 10 million up Doesn't represent the total cost That we're looking at If we do nothing. Yeah I No, I hear so this was a recent change And I think this is the tough part of getting feedback from multiple boards and committees. So it's So this is something that was not in the original. It was added to kind of give a trade-off So somehow eventually we'll need to get to one model that we all agree with But it's one of the one it is based on input that was came from Oh, we could change and we could also change we could add tiers to the repair number If you want it to be 10 million 15 million or I planned that I planned that but I just sort of feel like the library's taking some big hits here And I'm a little frustrated. I will switch the library to the bottom You're up on everyone else's shoulders Okay, I want to continue on So dorthy you haven't asked anything yet in regard to the bottle Okay, the yellow which is the ongoing capital Goes down a little bit and then it keeps going up and I'm curious as to why So we we did build in like a little bit of an inflation piece to the the three and a half million because the The levy also goes up every year. So we built in sort of the same inflation rate to the ongoing capital as we did the as we did the the Monetary sources itself. So that's why it kind of goes up with that line So it doesn't mean you're doing more you just now. Well, we're just we're taking into account that the three and a half million today will not buy us the same There's going to be things are going to cost more in the future. So it sort of goes up with that same Parallel to that black line But it's a smaller amount Is there any way This is really a question of the library and I don't mean to be picking on you Okay, but if you were going to do a renovation would any of it be considered historic preservation? If we do a no If you do a renovation, no Okay, and I mean not that I know I mean we're looking if you yeah, if you repaired what we have not new Would any of it be considered historic preservation? Not that I'm aware of no, I mean what we're looking at is systems Leaking problems electrical. Yeah, that's there. You wouldn't get the historic preservation The other thing I wanted to just say that this is the model we see today I can think of A way I would want to potentially see this model changed A year from now, okay, and that is we go further along with a dpw and we decide we're going to stage it Okay, and so we may have dpw phase one and then five years later dpw phase two Or something like that That allows us to think about Those projects that could be staged. That's really the only one that can be staged that I'm aware of Yeah, paul So I think it's important to recognize that this is a pretty blunt tool It had a lot more sophistication and in it before and people said it's too complicated Make it simpler so the general public can use it and bill was able to use it successfully so Brave bill But I think it it can add levels of complexity You know staging and finding but I think this is just to show relationships about decision making And for this first round as we start educating people So people say, oh, I see how these things work together It's and I think it's legitimate that you worry about once the numbers out there Can we build a 20 million dpw? Good question. We you know But but but once those numbers get out there they get sunk into people's brain And that's what you're worried about and I think we recognize that But I think it's just to recognize what the purpose of the tool is is not to solve the problem But just help people sort of grasp what the what the scale of the problem is I have a non library related question So I was just curious and maybe I didn't read it properly, but I saw that there was um The the percent for art breakout and I'm curious Why we're breaking the art piece out and not the net zero out since they were both generated by Bylaws, I mean, what's the logic behind that percent for arts up for con discussion The zero net zero bylaw has already been passed and is in effect these The half percent for art was rejected by the state And is now back on the table to be discussed and looked at by the council Yeah, I just had a question for you Sean. So on the Cost escalation factor I'm I'm I want to make sure I understand right that what you're doing is if you say for example Fire station 20 million dollars in 2025. Yeah, it's adjusting the 20 million dollar project cost Yeah by the escalation factor Yeah, so each of these has sort of a base year of when their most recent estimate And so whatever that base year is versus what year is selected There's the cost and I get you're making and it's an estimate, right? I mean you're just assuming what inflation would look like in construction and materials. Yeah, but um Do you end up showing that anywhere? So someone can see that if we stage these projects, you're not literally Um staging a you know a 30 million 20 million 10 million and 85 million dollar project because if you have them Out 10 years then you're what the end cost is no, I don't but that could be something we pop in over here I mean I only bring that up because in the same thing the time is money That that if we're going to show people the impact on their property tax budgets It also makes sense to show You know if you say well, why don't we just put it off 10 years? Okay. Well, then how much does that add to the cost? Yeah, that's a good point We could put on that right side based on your options Something that links to that so you can see what the cost and how it would change based on yours Right exactly on the assumptions I sort of want to build on something that mr. Backelman Said in what we've been talking about And and exactly what you you were alluding to is that I love this model. So before I even start adding some criticisms I I could I didn't get to play with it last night. I saw it but I I could totally geek out on it. I'm sure The danger though is that it is so sophisticated it looks and gives the impression that it's accurate And and not to say that your math and formulas are wrong. It's that it's all based on assumptions and estimates And I think you know Sending this off into the wilds of the community It could get it could create this impression that oh a dpw is going to cost 20 million and when the Or that's one of the proposals on the table when we really don't know and it changes and then we're Left having to defend and explain why it's different than what was in the model And you're not going to want to change the model every time we get a new estimate. So The one idea and I don't this isn't perfect I'm sure lots of folks have other ideas on this but Is is to put sort of a big red disclaimer at the top that this is for modeling purposes only And to you know getting at what you said mr. Backelman, but it's it's really to illustrate Not to define and tell you that your tax bill is going to be 750 dollars more it's Approximate and I think that's going to be really really important particularly when we get to the Discussions about how we're going to involve the community and bring bring the community along and inform and explain Is that this is not meant to be here's your invoice Yeah, I think the other thing that I would want to just Put forward is is that we also talked about? I'm having this available to the public through a page on the town website where the website Page itself would contain information that would give the context and explanations And You know that's something that we're still sort of the next step of working on and I understand That you were working to work with it to try and achieve that and do it as Soon as we possibly can actually sort of get this thing worked out and so I just wanted to add that Did you have something me into him just some quick stuff as I played with it this morning A little more explanation on the amount over the 10 levy the The excellent the yellow the green the red I figured it was the amount of money we had in free cash and stabilization that identified all of that but maybe Stating that somewhere that yellow is money that could be Used from stabilization or free cash and red is you exceeded that number and and maybe giving that number would be helpful A small one was when I was looking at the override numbers I kept going back to what percentage of a tax bill is that So not just a basic couple hundred dollars, but so I didn't have to keep putting in different like House amounts and if there's a way to somewhere put my guess is it's similar for every tax bill It's about the same percentage because you've got a formula to figure this out So if it could just say this will represent a certain percentage of your tax bill Um and that changes depending on what what you exclude because I think that would be helpful to get an idea of with a 500 That you know if your tax bill is 10,000 This is how much it would be if your tax bill is only 5,000. This is how much it would be things like that I think it's already been stated, but I just want to do again articulate That would be nice to have a tab separate tab for all the assumptions we're making Because I really I mean and while I'm at that is the net zero Is this at the school estimates already including the net zero net zero is there? Yeah, I mean as noted that zero is part of it and it just Stick with the here and then I'm going to get public comment If there's nothing else to come from the group that's up front I want to just correct one assumption I don't think The wildwood estimate includes net zero So they both came from the fort river feasibility study. Okay. Yeah, all right. It wasn't from the prior project Yeah, that's because four river and wildwood are identical for the most part. So, okay anything else one last look She was on the committee. So if I'm wrong, it'd be good to have her clarify okay, then Let me go to the back of the room and start with as You were on the committee So A lot of those numbers up there do not look Like the numbers that we have now. So I believe that And the extrapolations I think all have to be adjusted because Those are not what we've got right so When you're using a tool the most important thing is to have accurate information going in or also what you have coming out Isn't going to be accurate. So I would take issue with a lot of the figures up there And you have to realize that when you do A renovation it there is a range of costs that that could That could amount to the final cost same thing with new construction. You can make different decisions Along the way. So having one One number is not going to be Accurate in addition the reimbursement, especially when you're working with msba It can range from anywhere for new construction When we did we did this as part of the study from 41 percent to 51 percent and for renovation from 46 percent to 61 percent That's a huge range And so when when you have numbers up there that are different in the total project cost And then you add on this difference in In reimbursement it really changes things quite a bit. So I think that before this goes anywhere live It should be reconciled with the final work of the committee The other thing I want to point out is that that the school configuration options don't include all the possible options that are there And I would want to be very careful that you're not comparing construction costs for an 1120 student population of k through six students To a population of nine hundred and sixty K through five students. So you can't compare a 600 student school, which would represent a k five configuration k five six eight considerate configuration to two schools that would house All of the k through six students. So I would want I have obviously we're not going to go through all these numbers today But this has to be gone through really carefully so that we make sure that the numbers that are in the model Are accurate the other thing I think we need to talk about is why This only gives the option for one msba project and one non msba project when that might not be the case And so I think there's a lot of school issues there Can I ask you to to clarify isn't that zero factored in? Well, it depends it depends and you can do net zero a number of different ways, right? So you can build Um a building that has a very good. Yeah Yes, but if these well, yes, but but there are two different But there's two different estimates even for a new school because there's an eui 30 school and an eui 50 school So they're both net zero And in fact even the renovations you have to do net zero for the addition And so again, you can make an a 30 or a 50 and that makes a difference But when the total project costs come out, yes, the they are Everything is compatible with the net zero bylaw So I'll just speak to that. I don't necessarily disagree with what she said. I just wanted to list clarified that so the feasibility study had about For every type of configuration there were dozens and dozens of options Whether it was 420 kids or 315 students whether it was this level of Net zero as you mentioned the different types of net zero you can hit So What we've tried to do is simplify it down to five or six options and we use sort of the median of the the ranges that were there Um, but I agree if we want to get to the specificity of you know, there would be literally hundreds of options I don't you probably know exactly how many scenarios were looked at But there but there were dozens and dozens of different scenarios. That's true I think that what you have to do is have an accurate range in there. Um, and so Um, for example for a new construction and this is this is something you'll be hearing about soon Um What the committee is going to be saying is that we would recommend the general contractor method Which is going to take 10 off the total project cost compared to a construction manager at risk That brings those numbers down quite a bit on the other hand. There's a lot more reimbursement There's a 5 percent reimbursement for doing renovation. So that Brings those numbers down. So there's a lot of differences. So I think that these numbers are probably old and probably aren't Up to date for all the factors that we've included that we're going to be presenting in the final report So what we can do because it was it was um recommended that we include an assumptions tab So on the assumptions tab, we can put I mean, we'll have to agree on how many options we show here But on the assumptions tab, we can put where the specific cost estimates came from Um, there was a model where we noted exactly what page of the different studies And I know that the four river feasibility has um Come along since I think these were from february or march these numbers Um Was the presentation but I know that there's been a second cost estimate that has tried to vet the first cost Estimate so I don't disagree that these numbers can be updated I don't know if it's going to have a huge impact in terms of when we're talking In the millions that we're talking about but we obviously want to use the most recent information Okay So I should add one other thing When we looked at a prior beta version In this committee What we found was is that it had too many choices and too many choices created confusion for users of the process that We really needed to Have a finite number of choices so that There could be a common discussion in the community And uh It's a balancing act between two different things then and I appreciate the point that you've made That um, even if we're Reducing choices. We need to make sure the choices have a realistic range Aylu I I agree with those who say that these Numbers that are there In terms of cost are there and there are no changes in them The old form at least had Some options for cost And if you had those I think you're better able to go to the public and talk about that Because they will have seen well that building could be 15,000 it could be 20 I mean 15,000 be great wouldn't it 15 million 20 million or whatever Um, so no one came away with the impression That the building was going to cost this amount of money and and I hear what you're saying because if You go out and you support it at the amount That's in there and it turns out to be higher for whatever reason that doesn't look good to the public I think the public really needs to know that what we're building is within our means to build And it's also a reasonable amount of money for what we're building So I don't know if that's going to be a lot of trouble or if it's even worth having some choices For what each of these buildings would cost We have choices on some other things. Uh, for example dpw In fire have choices Yeah, so there are choices in there Yeah In schools And I think I'll just echo what I think Lynn said earlier, which is so this is you know The version when we don't actually have cost developed that much by architects and engineers We've got sort of studies, but we haven't got into really detailed schematic designs for most of not all the projects So I think this is a It was intended to be sort of again a blunt tool that can be refined with better cost estimates when we actually get schematic designs I know we've got jcpc approved that funding for Or allocated that funding for dpw and fire station But again, I think this first version is just very high level, but I can certainly add options however many options people think They'd like to choose from but That's sort of the trade-off that we keep having is how complex Versus the ability to use it Okay, I'm going to go for a few more minutes and then try and move on but I And I just see somebody from the audience the door think go ahead For some of those reasons, I don't think it's a good idea to refine the tax thing I think somebody might think they've really found their tax amount and then when they find it's different It might you might have to be in a difficult problem. I think I would leave that kind of vague Tony Hi, Tony Cunningham. I just wanted to flag that the ongoing capital is actually a very large amount The amount of items that were on the jcpc 10 year plan this year that were pushed off beyond 2020 Add up to over 100 million dollars so Putting the three and a half million per year is never going to make a dent in that backlog because each year You know vehicles get pushed back ladder truck gets pushed back North common is pushed back north Amherst intersection. There's athletic fields is coming up not to mention roads and sidewalks so I just think That it's you just need to kind of keep in the back of your mind that the four projects there's like many more many more than four and Leaving the three and a half million to cover everything else is completely insufficient So Tony, thank you very much for the comment and that's why I want to move on to try and finish things out because item nine on the agenda is consequences of these proposals for funding funds for other capital needs including roads and sidewalks and then Development of five-year capital plan because I think that what we've come to realize is even though we've Been doing 10 years the charter says five years regardless of what a length it is Um, has it been realistic and I think your question is really in that point has been realistic. So thank you Eric apologize, I Before you moved on I had one one final comment that I think one of the one of the challenges that I'm not sure how to resolve this but The tool Is very helpful It's not helpful I don't think if it sort of intermediates between Whatever body is actually trying to work through the details of a project and work through You know the sort of project level trade-offs and decisions you're trying to make and somebody looking at this and populating A really long menu of alternatives Thinking they've come up with an alternative mix that works And then you know then understandably because it's actually a completely understandable thing That person's then going to come to the town council and go in public comment and say I've figured this out This is what you should be doing But that and it's not that the comments wrong so to speak But what it is is it's entirely disengaged From any of the kind of conversations that are happening, you know with the library with the future school building committee That's trying to figure out sort of In reality, what have we learned about this plot of land? Can we build on it? If so how you know, whatever I mean, I hate to use examples But whatever the example is and and the the point I'm making is that that public input and that public Those alternatives or ideas and questions are completely welcome But the point is the tool can either be something that helps people visualize alternatives and informs debate Or it can actually become something in which it seems like such I think actually miss mcdonnell talked about this earlier It's sort of a a false decision that's built into it that's disconnected From the actual project level decisions that are being made So and so finding that balance right is a real challenge I haven't I haven't worked through it But when I made the comment earlier in the meeting that I was really concerned That we sort of bracket out what we're talking about when and how to engage different stakeholders and different sets of experts and information To help inform the community and bring everyone along in a way that makes really informed decisions That's what I was talking about and something like this could end up Actually frustrating that clarity rather than informing it unless it's built into the process really effectively One of the things that if I were going to Be one of the guinea pigs tonight, I would have gone full boat full load build them all tomorrow Okay, and what you rapidly would see is we can't do it. Okay, but I'd like to see that Okay, and then I'd start looking at issues like well Okay, I own a house that's x, but I'm only willing to pay Y amount more what what can I do for that? So I think there's other ways to back into this Whatever this model doesn't do what it does do is create a conversation and that is what we're looking for Is a conversation that says what are the priorities of this town and what do we as counselors need to hear from you? and so You know i'm a mathematician by birth I guess but I love a model and it it creates a conversation so As an aside Conversation has come up in several comments over the evening and I think that the word that's missing is listening Um, and I'm not hearing that we want people to talk Therefore we need to listen Yeah, I was just going to recognize you because I saw your hand up and then I'll uh, ask for Allison Go ahead Yeah, I'll stay up here with Then I'll address the point that refers to your graph first Richard Bogart um The graph that we're looking at here is called the bar plot If there was only one variable being represented That is if it was only say the yellow curve Then it would just be a plain bar plot, but it's a multivariable bar plot There's a problem with this form of presenting a bar plot and that is it's very difficult to see How the purple say is changing over time is what you want to see but The tops of the of the total bars tend to attract your attention So that It's hard to see it There's an alternative way to present a multivariable bar plot and that is you present more narrow Bars of each of the colors for each time period So you'd see a yellow a purple a red and a green And then you'd see another of those four and you could see how each of those colors is changing over time I suggest That you take a look at it that way and see and it's probably just a toggle to get it to switch from the one to the other He's a mathematician by birth I teach statistics I have a second Suggestion it starts with an anecdote Because I've been very active in faculty governance I've had multiple opportunities to speak to the previous provost And I suggested to her over and over again That talking about teaching load Is a mistake it gives the impression that there's something That we have to bear when we teach students And it's we shouldn't do that nobody ever talks about a research load You know, it's just a teaching load and I convinced her And she actually bought it and she started speaking about it differently She would talk about teaching assignments rather than teaching loads You're talking about speaking to the public and you want to Tell them about their tax burden Don't tell them that taxes are a burden Taxes are the dues that we pay to be a part of the society that we live in So consider the possibility of not talking about tax burdens talk about Paying your dues and you're going to pay them one way or another If you don't pay to have the streets fixed You're going to pay to have your axels fixed That's my two cents. Thank you. Thank you Sir Then I wouldn't move on but I would It's hard to follow that comment um Just because of the concern that some of you have been expressing about how This might be interpreted. Perhaps it will be useful to Call it a conceptual model for illustration But it is not your decision-making tool You're not going to put in you're not going to do your own selection like Mandy joe did And come up with a picture that people that the public could also do This is a simplified version. You've got something much more sophisticated Good. Thank you So I think we do need to bring this piece to a close. It's been very instructive conversation I hope it's been helpful for you But because you've received a lot of feedback The remainder of the agenda I just wanted to Say why things were listed because we don't necessarily need to go into the into the entire agenda But there were pieces that are on there And I think that we do need to recognize So number eight was In the combined and I'm looking at the finance committee But the next one from the list whichever list you're looking at Is financial considerations and proposed percent for our by-law And I and I think that I'm only going to point out one piece of information What you were looking at in this chart was a click on or off that would say how much we're going to be adding to those projects that are Involved That we were discussing tonight How the by-law is going to be structured Is Really yet to be determined because there's a work group that has just been formed that will be Working with the finance committee and the community resources committee on that issue. So It's really a piece of it and it is a very blunt thing But it is a realistic piece of the buildings because if we have a percent for our by-law A major purpose of it That I think everybody has articulated very clearly is to make sure that you build Then the purpose would be to build art into Each project so that it becomes an integral part of each building that is being built and So that's where that linkage occurs The other thing on percent for art is that you can add you you can know how much Additional you will have an override, but for those Projects that are being funded Not by override, but just being funded from town funds that will come out of the capital budget to an amount and that will Reduce a little bit the month that's available for other capital needs We will As a finance committee Delve into that and try and make sure that that information is available to The council to the community at large, but it's sort of difficult for us to do that Till there's actually a proposed by-law in which to Make those Make that calculation against But that is part of it. So I don't know if there's anything else on percent for art I just wanted to explain in that context We will be dealing a lot with percent for art over a period of time and I really wouldn't encourage A lot of participation in that process because it is going to Be worked at for the working group which will be posted public meetings that will develop Begin to develop the proposal And then it goes to the two committees I named and those are also public processes and ultimately Presumably go to the council So there's a lot of opportunity for Public discussion and a lot to learn about it including a lot to learn ourselves To move this thing along The next thing that was listed was consequences of those Proposals for funding other capital needs including roads and sidewalks I mean we talked about that a little and how that fits into the chart But One of the things that then it leads to as was pointed out by ms. Cunningham is that the and I have to say my colleague his Kathy shane has raised the same thing We need to make sure that we are Developing a realistic multi-year plan And that continuing to push things off forever Means that they never get done and then you shouldn't be saying you're going to do them But we need to be realistic about the plan And I don't think that we're going to solve that problem tonight, but I do think that it's a major assignment for jcpc the next year Yes, mandy And I would just put in a plug for yes it is I agree that it's something jcpc along with the next one on the list the development of a five-year capital Plan needs to deal with so I don't know where my other jcpc members stand But I think that means we should probably be meeting regularly starting soon So that we're not as rushed as we were last year and so that we can really put the time in and the discussion and that we need to Have those conversations about those two issues And see if we can come up with something that sound that we could send to maybe the finance committee about here's what That minimum is as as what jcpc thinks the minimum on those are Comments on any of the top those three topics that I just raised. Yeah, Eric I agree with you Okay We will we will work on that and You know the whole budget process calendar is sort of the next thing on our list and We've Sonya's already been working to help us to develop that So that we can get that process piece moving So where I think that we've ended up and I'm just going to try and say Do this is that we need to make sure that there's a mech I think we've come to some common agreements that there needs to be a mechanism For continuous updates of information about the projects that we've discussed Including but not exclusively grants costs Other factors timelines All of the things that We're discussed at the beginning of the meeting and that Creating that mechanism so that there be can be continue information flow to all of the important elected bodies in appointed bodies to that that have a role in this to get that information the second is that I think there's a community Consensus that building community understanding About the needs about the options about the costs about the timetable It is important and that we Need to work together through mechanisms that we have in mechanisms that we Are creating to make sure that we Can adequately involve our community to both understand and to provide knowledgeable input about the topics that we're discussing There was a feeling that we need to Find a way to organize the conversation so that we can have a common set of Stated terminology and information that goes forward so that Not picking on my counselors are meaning to by saying this but that we provide assistance so that when we have community meetings in each district That we have a way of providing the information of helping you And making sure that we have the staffing and tools to provide to to enable you to organize the conversation in a consistent Way that's both useful for you in conducting your district meetings and allows us to get valued Valuable feedback that then we can compare across the various districts as we hear from it and also with townwide forums um There's certainly has been a consensus about needing to develop a five-year capital plan and that That we need to Work now to Get the Financial planning tool Perfected the website that will explain it and provide the information and To make sure that there's Adequate base of information which would mean things like making sure that we hear from the joint meet What's provided at the joint meeting of the school committee and the council regarding the fort river plan Our fort river study so Those were certain things that I would propose that we view as takeaways from tonight I don't know if there are any others that you have to suggest Yes, dorthy. You've mentioned this before Can we change five-year plan to ten-year plan? The the charter requires five That doesn't mean we can't do a ten-year plan. Yeah I think we did want to go ten-year, but then we decided we really want to focus in on five years And really spend a lot of time on getting the next five years as accurate as possible So it's not that we might not do ten years But I think we're going to place most of the emphasis on the next five years and updating that part of the the capital plan Anything else Charlie I'm not sure how to articulate this but what's coming up for me is also in terms of having a policy or like when we acquire new Buildings or acquire new assets the cost of maintaining those and having a consistent or clear policy around around that I will add that to this It's a sixth one if there's an agreement to do so anything else so I don't have any other business that I didn't anticipate 48 hours in advance Um, so I want to I think we're ready to adjourn both committees I really want to thank all of you for participating in what was really a very Intense and difficult meeting. I want to thank our staff um, both the staff who are here with us and uh, Anthony Delaney who assisted us but was is not here tonight um, but uh, please let him know that I recognize his contribution Because he's been very essential to this process and to the jcbc process Uh, I want to thank members of the public who took the time this evening to be with us in the comments that you contributed It was very important to hear from you and to have you as a part of this and with that, um at 9 30 I am going to adjourn both committees