 So in the words of Belle Hopes, she says our society is an imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. I would include that we live in an imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist, ableist, cisnormative, hetero-patriarchy. And society is structured by these systems, so it is all of these things at once, thereby creating unique experiences of oppression on groups who exist across different marginal identities. This creates what we then normalize, and how we experience the world, including— Sorry, can I just ask something in your mic? Thank you. This creates what we normalize and how we experience the world, including any benefits that you might accrue based on identities that fit into this structure or any penalties based on identities that exist outside of this structure. And so intersectionality is a term that has been coined to unpack the complexity of a multi-dimensional experience of oppression. And it is critical to apply this lens and this understanding of intersectionality throughout this presentation and beyond, particularly when committed to practicing anti-oppression and anti-racism. So I'm going to share that now. Intersectionality is a way of understanding— Can you add the captions? Oh, good. Never mind. Intersectionality is a way of understanding social relations by examining intersecting forms of discrimination. This means acknowledging that social systems are complicated and that many forms of oppression, like racism, sexism and ageism, might be present and active at the same time in a person's life. Everyday approaches to building equality tend to focus on one type of discrimination, for instance, sexism, and then work to address only that specific concern. But while the career of a young, white and able-bodied woman might improve with gender equality protections, an older, black, disabled lesbian may continue to be hampered by racism, ageism, ableism and homophobia in the workplace. Intersectionality is about understanding and addressing all potential roadblocks to an individual or group's well-being, but it's not as simple as just adding up oppressions and addressing each one individually. Racism, sexism and ableism exist on their own, but when combined, they compound and transform the experience of oppression. Intersectionality acknowledges that unique oppressions exist, but it's also dedicated to understanding how they change in combination. The roots of intersectionality lie within the black feminist movement, with legal scholar Kimberly Crenshaw originating the term. She also felt that anti-racist and feminist movements were both overlooking the unique challenges faced by black women. She stated that legislation about race is framed to protect black men, and legislation about sexism is understood to protect white women. So simply combining racism and sexism together does not therefore protect black women. Intersectional theory is now applied across a range of social divisions and also to understandings of domination, such as those associated with whiteness, masculinity and heterosexuality. Intersectionality is not only about multiple identities, and it's not a simple answer to solving problems around equality and diversity. It is, however, an essential framework as we truly engage with issues around privilege and power and work to bring them into the open. Intersectionality means listening to others, examining our own privileges and asking questions about who may be excluded or adversely affected by our work. As importantly, it means taking measurable action to invite, include and center the voices and work of marginalized individuals. Okay, so that video on intersectionality, that definition, I think the reason why I added it in this presentation is because I think it is done really, really well, and it connects quite well with being able to apply this framework to what we'll be talking about today. And going back to this idea about what the structure of our society is, that really long definition of it being imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist, ableist, disnormative, heteropatriarchy, using intersectionality as a framework to understand what we're talking about is essential. So what is art? Art is also really important in terms of understanding to frame the conversation that we're talking about this afternoon, this morning. And I thought that it would be really essential to break that down so that we can apply anti-oppression theories to a sector and to work that exists within that structure of our society. So art essentially is cultural production and involves an interaction of values, ideas and organizational practices shaped by established social and historical conditions. And so this is really important, the fact that this cultural production that we engage in through the arts, but also in terms of the university sector, noting that this knowledge, this work is established by the social and historical conditions. So as I said, I'm going to use my personal story to guide the flow and the frame of this presentation today. As in my introduction, as Tracy mentioned, I'm a proud Black woman. But to come to this understanding of who I am wasn't something, wasn't an afterthought or something that I just ended up figuring out that I was. It was something that was quite present in my life from the earliest than I can remember and feeling a difference and a lack of belonging. And so I was born in the UK and I lived there until I was five years old. And given the pervasiveness of how central whiteness or white culture is in the UK and was in the UK at the time, that led to a series of experiences that I had and also at the age of five and probably earlier than that, feeling having an identity crisis essentially. My parents fortunately noticed what was going on and decided to make the move back to their home country of St. Nusha, where I lived for five years of my life, so from age five to 10. And that island is a predominantly Black island, which still has, is still shaped by whiteness because of the colonial legacies and racism and so on and so forth. However, because it was a predominantly Black environment, the weight that I was carrying around on in terms of identity crisis kind of evaporated. As soon as I was in St. Nusha, as soon as I landed essentially. From there at the age of 10, my parents made the decision to immigrate to Canada. And I lived in Scarborough, which is in the GTA. And I think at that point I had confidence in who I was and what my abilities were in terms of school and what my interests were in terms of things that I would do outside of school. However, it was a move to university in Kingston. So I went to Queen's University for my undergrad degree where my understanding of racism was turned on its head. It was something that I never expected that I would experience in that way. I knew racism was a thing and that it existed. But the way that it seems to manifest, particularly in Kingston, is quite visceral and intense. And so that was an eye-opening experience for me and kind of led me down a journey in terms of really interrogating how racism functions and why it can look different in different cities and in places like Canada where the dominant narrative is Canada is a multicultural place and therefore racism is not a thing or it's not as bad as the USA, for example. I want to also say that for me growing up or being a person in community, I think being involved in the community is really essential and so I positioned myself towards more collective, collectivized living frameworks as opposed to being an individual and hoarding wealth and only doing things that would benefit me and being a person who experiences racism, experiences sexism and other types of oppression, it puts in really deep perspective for me the fact of how individualism is part of the problem. And so coming back to Kingston, often I get asked the question that I left Kingston, I finished my undergrad and I went to back to the UK, surprise, surprise, the place where I had my identity crises, but I went back to the UK because I was looking for a language to be able to discuss and understand exactly how racism had functioned and that was something that I was unable to find in Canada at the time. And through my postgraduate education, just thinking about myself and trying to get involved and try new things, I came across aerial arts or circus arts that the university had partnered with the local the local studio to give lessons and classes and so on. And I thought, you know, that was something that I've never done before. And it's not something that you necessarily really see black people doing at all. And so fully expecting that it was going to be a very white space, I decided to try my hand at it. And today I still continue, I'm really glad to be part of the Kingston Arts, the Kingston Circus Arts Center's performance team. I really enjoy doing aerial and learning and engaging my brain in a different way than I do in my typical day to day life, which would be working at the university in a role around anti-racism. And so I am constantly talking about anti-racism. I'm constantly thinking about it. I am constantly talking about it. And so practicing the form, the art form of aerial and learning it really is a little bit of a break from using my brain to constantly think about anti-racism. So it is important and I bring all of that with me when I enter those those spaces. And so I think this is very much connected to and when I am thinking about myself in the arts, I think about the historical legacies and what has happened in the past and how Blackness is viewed. Because inevitably in performance spaces, for me anyhow, you're putting yourself on show. And my Blackness is not an aspect of myself that I can choose not to share. I wear this identity 24 seven, even on days when I'm tired of answering questions about what resources people should read, for example. And so I start with, and I think about Sarah Bartman, who was known derogatorily as hot and taught Venus. And Bartman was taken from South Africa, her home at the age of 21 years old and shipped to London, where she would be, where she was caged and exhibited as a freak show. She was presented semi-nude, her physique, especially her large buttocks was the source of much curiosity. But as her fame spread, so did her exploitation. And so Sarah Bartman is one of, represents the way that Black women, it's an early representation of how Black women were exoticized or are exoticized and fetishized, but also treated in a very spectacle way. And so sometimes when I think about myself being in a performance space, those are those are the things that I'm thinking. And or at least airing my subconscious and have to negotiate when I make decisions to put myself in certain situations. So Sarah for her story sometimes uses a symbol to illustrate a various social and political strains. And through these applications, her true story, unfortunately, has become lost. Dr. Yvette Abram, who is a professor of women and gender studies at the University of the Western Cape, says that we lack academic studies that view Sarah Bartman as anything other than a symbol. Her story becomes marginalized as it is always used to illustrate some other topic. And so for some reason, Sarah Bartman is always employed to represent African discrimination and suffering in the West. And so even here, I'm using her story or what we know of her story to represent that. But there were many other people from her village called the Koi Koi people who were taken from there from South Africa and brought to Europe. For example, a historian called Neil Parsons says that writes about two Koi Koi children of ages 13 and six who were taken from South Africa and displayed at a holiday fair in Germany in 1845. There has been a traveling show called the Boygemen's Trap that traveled around Britain, Ireland and France consisting of two men, women, one woman and a baby. And the circus was in business from 1846 to 1855. There was a show called Little People advertised as with a 16 year old girl by the name of Flora as the missing link and acquired six more Koi Koi children after her. These were just some of the cases of Koi Koi Africans who were enslaved and put on display. The reason why Bartman's Tale is so famous, maybe that she was the first Koi Koi to be taken from her homeland. However, it is most likely that her fame is due to the extensive exploitation of her body by the general public and scientists, as well as the horrible mistreatment she received during her life and after her death. She was brought to the West solely on the premise of her exaggerated female form and the European public gained a sickening obsession with her reproductive organs. And we know this is to be true of other black women, black slaves who were tested on or experimented on before gynecology became a medical discipline and they were experimented on without any anesthetic. Her body parts, Sarah Bartman's were on display at the Musee de la Homme for 150 years and her story as a symbol maybe due to the awareness and the sympathy it has evoked in the public eye. And so even though Bartman was the first Koi Koi to land in Europe, much of her story has been lost and she instead is defined by her tragic utilization and exploitation in the West. And I think, like thinking, saying this out loud, there is a really infamous individual called Alfie Pierce in Kingston that gets talked a lot about at Queens. And I think that there have been many narratives. He's a black individual who lived most of his life on Queens campus. And a lot of stories and inferences have been placed on his life that obscures what his actual reality was. And so just even looking at the way that individual existence are used to build narratives or to, or to make a point, even their story in itself, the fact that it is lost is a really, a really, well, for me, I feel like it's a complex feeling because their true humanity is sort of taken out of that and they then become the product of making a point. But that moves us on to thinking about minstrels. And I've attached gollywag there as well. Because the picture that you see is a gollywag that also would look like what a minstrel would be dressed like. But in by 1848, blackface minstrel shows were a national art form in North America and translating formal arts such as opera into popular terms for general audiences. And so each show consisted of comic skits, variety acts, dancing and music performances that depicted people specifically of African descent. The shows were performed by mostly white people in makeup or blackface for the purpose of playing the role of black people. There were also some African American performers and black only minstrel groups that formed and toured. And so in Brighton, UK, there are quite a few stories about American black minstrel performers who found work, who found employment by touring their minstrel shows. And so the minstrel shows showed black people or focused on black people being dimwitted, lazy, buffoonish, superstitious and happy go lucky. And so we really start to see how the stereotypes that are placed on black life and black populations today are very much attached to these early demonstrations or replication of blackness as entertainment. And that's all blackness is good for either to be part of the economy as doing slave work or being the economy, I guess, and then as entertainment, which is also part of the economy. At least right now it's a huge part of the economy. And so the minstrels kind of acts died down towards the end of the 19th century, which is 1890s. But we see the rise of gollywogs, which is a doll like character created by Florence Kate Upton, that appeared in children's books in the late 19th century, usually depicted as a type of ragdoll and popular well into the 1880s. Wog, the term itself is a slang word in the idiom of British English. And it's usually employed as an ethnic or racial slur and considered derogatory and offensive. And so connected to that many nursery rhymes are vestiges of racist songs, for example, nursery rhymes that we still have today, that have had their lyrics changed, but were espousing and again, reproducing these narratives around whiteness being superior. The last person I like to think about or want to share around entertainment, Josephine Baker, her narrative does it does not necessarily it's not used as a demonstration of how of how blackness was was consumed and is consumed and the expectation that of the expectations or the stereotypes that are put on on blackness as they were for the minstrels and for Sarah Bartman. And Baker Josephine Baker performed as the last dancer on the end of course lines, where her act was to perform in a comic manner. So reminiscent of minstrels. And she was essentially the pony. So the member of the chorus, who couldn't remember the dance until the encore, which, at which some point, she would be able to perform it correctly, but also with more complexity. And so connecting that to the minstrels, it's like this idea of being dimwitted or lazy, and then showing up and then entertaining everyone because you shocked them out of that. Her career began with blackface comedy at local clubs in the US. And this was entertainment of which her mother had disapproved. So her mother didn't really like that she was doing this. However, these performances landed Baker opportunities to travel the world to get paid. Her family lived in severe poverty. And it was by playing into what white culture wanted from blackness from her is the way that she was able to access success. So in Paris, she became an instant success for her erotic dancing. And for appearing practically nude on stage, Baker performed the dance savage wearing a costume consisting of a skirt made of a string of artificial bananas. So very much like what the picture of illustration that you see on the slide on the screen, her success coincided around in 1925 with the exposition des arts, the exposition des arts, which gave birth to the term art deco, and also with a renewal of interest in non Western forms of art, including African forms of art. So Baker represented one aspect of this fashion. And in later shows in Paris, she was often accompanied on stage by her pet cheetah, Chiquita, who was adorned with a diamond collar. The cheetah frequently escaped into the orchestra pit where it tears up terrorize the musicians, adding another element of excitement to the show. So again, it's a lot about what can we consume of blackness? Oh, she's she's so exotic. She also has a pet cheetah. So all black people must have a pet cheetah. So she though her story isn't necessarily connected to or used to make the connection between anti black racism and and society. She was heavily involved in the civil rights movements in the 1950s. And so for example, she went to visit New York at one point with her husband, and she was refused reservations at 36 hotels because of racial discrimination. And she was so upset by this treatment that she wrote articles about the segregation in the United States, she refused to perform for segregated audiences in the US. And her, her insistence on mixed audiences helped integrate live entertainment shows in Las Vegas, Nevada. So she was greatly loved by the aristocracy of Europe. But that was in a kind of, I guess, we're seeing the start of, we're seeing the start of tokenization really. One one black person is good enough. And so for reference, the trans transatlantic slave trade was abolished in 1807 in Europe. And in 1834, through the Commonwealth of Britain, so Canada, and in 1865 in the US. And so throughout that timeline, Josephine actually falls outside of the abolishment of slavery. But we see the legacies of how Sarah Bartman was paraded around and used as, as an instrument to Gokat and to be amazed by minstrels, you know, creating these stereotypes to attach to blackness, and then also right having having a tokenized experience of what blackness is and and and consuming that and and using that as entertainment. Today, if we're connecting it to today, blackness is only accepted when it can be consumed and use as entertainment. And so when when you think about really popular black people, they are often in like the music industry or in athletics. And these and really are sits side by side with the pen, the penetration of a commodity culture. And so capitalism really driving, driving the desire for more of this, but and and and keeping, keeping black, keeping black individuals in spaces where they can experience real success or huge success on the scale of capitalism in in areas where that blackness is utilized as a way to consume for for white culture. And so we can start to think about cultural appropriation, which only further reinforces the continuation of normalization of white supremacy. And we're going to explore cultural appropriation a little bit further on. But one example, when I'm talking about when when we show up when black people show up in places where we're not expected to be. So for example, we think about Simone Biles and her extreme success in gymnastics, you there there is an almost an immediate backlash and exclusion that happens to black people in in those spaces. And so that's something for myself that I'm often quite conscious about in being in the art space, but in particular in terms of circus, given, you know, the historical legacy of of Sarah Bartman's or the part of her story that we know about. So connecting that to the circus. I did a little bit of reading before the session around the history of circus performances. And I read that, you know, it really started off with horses, and horses going around the track. So circus translates to circle. And over time, it evolved to include animals like elephants and exotic cats, so like tigers and lions, and people and acrobats started getting involved and clowns and so on and so forth. And so there is a close association of like a freak show and zoos being incorporated into the success or into the equation of a the formula of a circus. And so many of you may be familiar with the term run away with the circus. Let's run away with a circus where many there are many misfits in who are not accepted or excluded from mainstream society. And they can find a community to be together and to live essentially together. And so for me, again, thinking about my own entry point into arts or circus arts in particular, I think that this concept of running away with the circus to be quite a radical one in that this idea of rejecting the mainstream and dominant assertions of what a community looks like and who belongs and who doesn't. And I think it's also closely like the idea of the concept of the circus is closely linked to travelers or who are better known as the Romani peoples of Europe. And so if you think about the fortune telling or the caravans that are associated sometimes with circuses, Romani peoples who have experienced a historical legacy of exclusion from from dominant society, and are continued to be distinctly discriminated against and persecuted by the dominant society in Europe and the United States, find space and own the space as a circle as as their own. And so they have the freedom to put out to the world what it is that they want to or and they're they're existing. And I think for black people to exist sometimes and more or most more often than not, it takes a lot of time and energy to simply exist. And so I think the circus or the idea of the circus and more broadly, the arts has the potential to create a distinct space for black, black performers and artists, a distinct community that sits outside of the mainstream white society. So again, we come back to this idea around or this question around what do we mean by art? What is cultural production? And so art really is, you know, music, theater, literature, film, print, broadcast, and now include social media and with the rise of influencers. And what the arts do is it provides society with a sense of what it means to be for example, a man or a woman, poor or rich, indigenous or black. And cultural production is the lens through which people view themselves and the world. The arts or cultural production communicates powerful messages about core values about the norms, the cultural hierarchies and essential narratives of mainstream society. So cultural products and practices, the arts in short tend to mirror social realities. And cultural production provides a vehicle through which dominant cultural ideologies are promoted, sustained and reinforced. And so it's really important to note that these dominant cultural ideologies, these beliefs appear invisible and natural to those who are immersed in it. And which is why sometimes it's really hard to have that conversation around anti racism, or for example, being in Canada and having that narrative of multiculturalism, that you hear it's essentially indoctrinated in the minds of people. And so it is really hard to see what Robin D'Angelo calls the racial waters that we're that we're constantly in that we're swimming in. So cultural practices like art cannot be removed from the environment which they find expression, the environment, the context is really important. All forms of cultural production must be understood in the context of how they were produced by whom, at what historical moment, and with what social, economic and political impact. So art can we know, art can be, as I mentioned, really radical art spaces. And it can challenge the status quo, it can form new social relations, and it can be a form of political and social resistance. And that is really exciting about art. Artistic production is an important source and site of struggle against the dominant culture, significantly influenced by its legacy of European, Eurocentric heritage. Art can push boundaries of what is accepted and normative in society at any one time, such that art challenges the status quo by creating new forms of expression or reinventing old ones. Art is as a form of resistance has been coined by theory theorists, calling it avant-gardism, which values nonconformist ideology of new ideas and eagerness to shape new traditions and throw away the outdated past. Artistic and cultural productions stand at the forefront of radical social change in society. And therefore, we find most advances in inclusion of racialized or and other marginalized artists and their communities in the sector in art. And so we can go a long way. The space tends to be or the structure, the space, the image, the fact that we have to be imaginative opens up quite a few avenues to push anti-racism, anti-oppressive work further and often is on the forefront of these changes in society, since it reflects what the what the dominant narratives and understandings of society are. So for example, Afrofuturism is one such form of art that pushes boundaries and reimagine reimagines and goes against the status quo. Afrofuturism takes representations of lived realities of black people in the past and the present and reexamines the narratives to attempt to build new truths outside the dominant cultural narrative. So again, if we're thinking back to Sarah Bartman, to the minstrels, gollywogs, and even to Joseph Bing Baker, where Afrofuturism is building these new truths outside of the dominant cultural narrative, which would have been articulated through those through that history of those individuals and those forms of art, but also continue to be articulated in popular press and in the media. So Afrofuturism analyzes the ways in which alienation has occurred for black populations. Afrofuturism works to connect with the African diaspora with its histories and knowledge of racialized bodies. It is not restricted to any single medium. So on the screen, you can see the artwork for Erica Badoo's album. And so it can be music. There's a lot of literature around Afrofuturism. There are movies or film that demonstrate there are prints and photography. And I imagine that, you know, doing this presentation and putting it together, I really thought long and hard that this is potentially something that I could do if I want, if I so chose to in and incorporate in my in my aerial practice. So Afrofuturism involves reclaiming some type of agency over one story, a story that has been told throughout much of history by the dominant culture in the name of white supremacy. And so I find that really, really empowering and powerful in itself, this idea that I'm reclaiming or we have the ability to reclaim our story and tell it the way that we would imagine that we would like it to be. In 2018, I had the I had the privilege of being able to attend the decolonized conference in Toronto that was held that is held annually by OISI, which is the Education Department at U of T. And one of the keynote speakers was Gloria Ladson-Billings, who was a professor or a professor of hip hop at an American university. And she was in discussion or she was talking about Afrofuturism and made the the observation that for white society, the general everyday reality is not a dystopia. And so we see this reflected in terms of pushing boundaries in their art in art in popular mainstream. And so if we think about things like dystopian like Handmaid's Tale and and and other books that are based on on crime and so on and so forth. It becomes a source of entertainment because for the mainstream white society, this is this is unimaginable that this would this could happen or would be allowed to happen for them. Conversely, she made the the observation that for black folks, because we live such a dystopian reality, all of the time, we are drawn to creating art of utopias to counter what it is that we live. And so our Afrofuturism is really part of that work. So I've been talking for a really long time. And typically in my workshops, I like to get people involved talking given that we're on online. Having small discussions isn't the easiest or the most appropriate. And so I wanted to propose that we take five minutes to think about or to to get out an idea of art for cultural transformation. So take about five minutes to complete a rough outline or a sketch of any form of art that you are involved in or you would like to explore that would push to the boundaries of the status quo in your local community. And I have some prompts here that will help hopefully help in terms of getting that idea out and massaging that idea of art as being a form of resistance or form of your resistance to to the status quo. And the first thing that you would want to maybe think about is, you know, what is your identity? How do you fit into the structure of society? How do you fit into the status quo? And how do you not? You might also want to think about what is the context of your community, historically, and contemporary. What has gone on what continues to go on? Think about how think about the how? What is your medium? And how does that medium counter the mundane or that the everyday the things that we don't we do without thinking because it's so normalized? Why are you doing it? So what's the desired social economic and political impact of that art? And you know, what the what is the message that's really that's really important. What does it offer the community? And if it has a why it should definitely have a message it has a what and then when how does the public access this knowledge and resistance and that's a really key part as well. So in summary, this exercise is really designed or hopefully designed to help you push boundaries and thinking of ways to subvert the systems of power in society. Here, we're moving into territory of anti racism and anti oppression because we are seeking to actively counter those social constructs that govern the state of school. So let's take about five minutes to do that. And just so you have a heads up, there will be a five minutes break as well. So 10 minutes, start working on it, you know, get up, stretch your leg. If sometimes I do my best thinking by stretching, or by moving around, try to please do try to get it down on paper, or down somewhere, so that you can refer to it at another point in this presentation. So yeah, let's be let's come back for I'll start talking again at 1210. Thank you. You're muted, Tracy. Thank you. I said thanks so much, Lavi. And everyone enjoy your break. Hello. So it is 1211 11 minutes past 12. So I'm just gonna get right back in. So let me make sure that we're staying on time and on cue and that way I don't have to skip anything. And so hopefully that break was relaxing. And it was good to stretch and do get some water if that's what you needed. But also, I guess, maybe some of you were also working on the activity of constructing some art as a form of resistance as resistance. And so I think to continue on from where to pick up where I left off. It's important to know that it's exciting that work coming from the margins that marginalized populations inhabit challenges the existing norms of society by producing work that is critical of the status quo in an attempt to stimulate social transformation. There is, however, unfortunately, the insidious, I guess, side of that, or if we think about our society, remember, we live in a we live in an imperialist, white supremacist, catalyst, ableist, cis, cis normative heteropatriarchy. And so this the structure structures are quite strong and resilient. And so when there is the the opportunities and to create and stimulate social transformation, we've seen with cultural reproduction, which we know is is necessary to maintaining the structure of society as it is, and has it and as it has been designed, it can then be co opted for capitalism. And stripped of its its transforming powers. Once we start commodifying art and placing that commodity value on on on our art, rather than its transforming ability of stimulating social change. And so that is very much connected to cultural appropriation. So the the cloud with the lightning bolt, and maybe it could even be a brain, but I visualized it as a cloud. And the lightning bolt think of the story of Frankenstein, where you know, you have you're creating this amazing thing that has a great or work that has huge potential. And then you have the the lightning bolt that brings it to life. And it gets co opted or it's you've created a monster. And so the phenomenon of appropriation is is that monster is that the the structure of our society really bouncing back and saying and reinforcing its position as as this is what society looks like and this is how we operate. So the phenomenon of appropriation for commercial gain was usually results in profits for the appropriators rather than for the original creator. So it's very much connect to capital and capital production. And so we know that avant-garde ism or art as resistance can be co opted by the establishment by the establishment in complicity with modern capitalism. And therefore, this then neutralizes its transforming powers leading to which is now the familiar dynamic of cultural appropriation, because it's grounded in the purpose of commodification. So how does racism manifest in in in the arts in cultural production? That's a question that we need, we should be considering and really do need to consider. And so a lot of when I was doing my background research and trying to get my thoughts together for this presentation, the book that I have listed at the bottom of the slide that says Source Henry and Tate, The Color of Democracy, Racism in Canadian Society really is a great resource in summarizing how racism operates in Canada. It's a huge textbook. There was a particular chapter on the arts, which is what I referred to most mostly. And it does a brilliant job again, as of summarizing how racism shows up. And so the few ways that it listed in that textbook, it lists eight is the dominance of white Anglo European culture. When we talk about the dominant culture in Canada, what we're talking about is white Canada, white European culture. And so there is the the like things like European hairstyles, European religions, European ways of engaging and knowing become the norm. And this is what is expected of people. Otherwise, you are cast aside, you are marginalized. And so that leads into point two, where we have the dominance of this white Anglo European culture. And then therefore, we see in the arts and infuriation, essentialization and marginalization of other cultures. And essentialization is a big one that does happen. Because often people say, Well, that's representation, but it really is constraining other cultures outside of white culture, or European culture to be this one thing, and not and never really expanding beyond that. We see the invisibility of images, narratives and voices of racialized people. And so, you know, I was saying, I'm relatively new to the world of aerial and circus arts. And to my knowledge, there aren't many black women, or men who who exist, who exist in in in that field professionally. There's also the cultural appropriation of stories, images and ideas of racialized and indigenous people. So sometimes it's, you know, connected again to that capital, how do we make this so that it has mass appeal that we can consume, we can get as much out of it as possible, as much money out of it as possible to to fund again, white, that the dominance of white Anglo European culture. You can think about the lack of racialized representation on boards, arts, councils, unions and professional organizations. This is really key. Often, people think about the lack of representation on the stage or in front of the camera. But it is not just who is in front of the camera, but also who is behind it. According to Steve McQueen, who is a black direct, a black, a British black director. It is, it is important to include black voices, racialized voices, indigenous voices in the areas of cultural production that make the decisions that have the agency and the power to dictate what what what that cultural production will look like, what messaging is going to put forward, what is going to be supported. We can think about the lack of access to funding, Eurocentric aesthetic values. That's a big one for me that I often, again, think about in terms of performances and thinking about, for me, it's particularly connected to like my hair. And as an example, there's a show on Netflix called She's Gotta Have It. And the actress DeWanda Wise, the lead, she was on a podcast recently and was talking about, you know, showing up to set with her hair pre done, because by her own hairstylist, because it's their hairstylist on set, don't know what to do, and how to do it. And when they do do it, it's just like a really horrible job where now this, this person who is putting essentially being quite vulnerable, and putting themselves out there, the making of art is quite vulnerable. To me, a vulnerable work, she is no longer there, you're not, you're no longer feeling comfortable in your own skin, feeling confident about the way that you look and so on, and dealing with that pressure, trying to that additional pressure, and also trying to perform and perform twice as well. Otherwise, you'll never get booked again. And the final thing as well is again, negative images and stereotyping, which, you know, sometimes typecasts individuals into like, they will only get work. If they're playing in the role and in reference to black actors or artists playing drug dealers and so on and so forth. So constantly having to push back and battle with that. When you may not necessarily be in a position of power to, to reject those images and stereotyping, because you need a job, or, you know, acting is your passion, for example, I'm just using that as an example. So there are many manifestations of racism in the art. And anti racism, which we'll talk about a little bit later, really, is reflecting on these ways that racism occurs, and doing specific things to counter these expressions and these manifestations of racism. We accept we understand that racism exists. So anti racism means actively countering countering it. And so connected to cultural appropriation. Again, this textbook, the color of democracy talks about two processes of cultural appropriation and what goes into that. And so the first process that they, they suggest or they offer in the textbook is to say, you know, we have a white artist who interprets some sort of minority experience. So they create the product, they package it, they give it sentimentalization to where it will be able to have mass appeal. And then once it takes on that mass appeal, mass appeal likes it, then there is like success, whatever success means, most likely related to, you know, a lot of people attending or maybe like fame or fortune. The other process. And so that if we're talking about cultural appropriation is really important to think about an aspect of racism, called cultural racism. Now there, there are many aspects to racism. And cultural racism is just one of them. And it is important to consider this framework of interpretation and meaning for racial thought in society, because cultural racism is is something that's so ingrained in the symbolic systems of society that it is almost always denied. And it is seamlessly woven into the collective beliefs and value system of the dominant group. So white culture is sort of if we think if we think about it in this way, white culture is sort of an invisible veil that envelops Canadians. We, we, we are Canadian, we don't see our whiteness, we don't talk about it because this is this is the norm. This is the way things are supposed to operate. And that is what cultural racism is. These are the unwritten rules that people follow in society. So in the arts, cultural racism marginalizes the cultures of others. And so the dominant groups, cultural images, symbols and norms remain intact. Right? Again, like that's what art does. It propagates images and symbols and norms in an effort to keep that narrative intact. In fact, I would argue that it is placed in opposition whiteness is placed in opposition to blackness to validate its superiority. And therefore, keeping those cultural images, symbols and norms intact. Simultaneously, creative expressions developed by racialized artists are appropriated. So their stories or histories and images derived from other cultures are interpreted and incorporated by white visual artists, curators, your theatrical producers, musicians and writers into their own creations. And so we see the second process of what how cultural appropriation is going to happen. We see the racialized artist or the marginalized artists, depending on what their identity is, is creates work. There is a rejection by the mainstream because it doesn't fit that narrative. It doesn't it seems to be too too radical. People say there's a lot about many things. It's just too radical. And then therefore, the artist experiences a marginalization, the work experiences and my marginalization maybe sometime passes. And there is a discovery by a white artist or white producer, etc. And they say, Hey, you know what, this is really cool. Let's see if like, let me help you or let me I don't I don't know what the conversation is. But there's there's a process of discovery. And so then it goes back into this packaging. Okay, let's let's make this palatable, maybe let's change a few of these things here. As as as a white person who doesn't maybe necessarily have the insight that you have, I think that it would read better. It would be consumed better in this way. And then in the chiefs mass appeal. And then again, we're at we're at success. And so the issue of appropriation really is that it's rooted in the problem of access. And so in the exercise that I asked you to do about 15 minutes ago is is I asked you to think about who how are people accessing your work? And so and that is really, really important because historically, black people, indigenous people, people who live or who are on the fringes of society have have have not had access to many of the institutions in Canada. And for example, like like wealth. So if you can think, I'm just quickly pop in the chat, if you can think of any examples of cultural appropriation, and think and really explore those examples for yourself and think about what exactly makes it appropriation and just share the types and I'll read them out as they come in. But also thinking about like one, one, one, one, one example that comes to mind for me is Elvis Presley, around the idea of cultural appropriation. Now, his story or his craft, his art is often and will always be more complex than that where they have been historically a lot of black artists, musicians who said that if it weren't for Elvis, they wouldn't have had the platform that they that eventually got. And so we go back to this idea about this discovery about the white artist, right? And what level of white washing needs to happen to be able to achieve that mass appeal. And so even when we we put the system of capitalism on top of other systems of oppression, we really start to struggle with the tensions and the again, that pull back into centering whiteness and that system that that society that we live in being quite resilient in keeping things in the way that they that they should be to prioritize those parts. And so I have someone mentioned Tracy mentioned Indigenous attire at festivals. Yeah, so that's a form of cultural appropriation, taking it and just you know, wearing it for the fun of it and not and not considering the cultural elements to it. Leah says a non-signing person using sign language on stage performing a song. They use it for likes while not socializing with the deaf community or having a full understanding of the language exactly. And like using it as a prop. That's a big part of cultural appropriation trying to you know, present yourself in a way that that takes from that takes and diminishes even communities that are that are typically marginalized because of the type of society that we live in, because of the structures. Got some more points here just quickly. Yep, Kardashian spending a fortune trying to look like a light skinned black woman home said this yes 100% the Kardashians are constantly under fire. And even we could take it to another level where the Kardashians now have and the Kardashian genders I guess now have like black children where they may or may not feel that there is a certain legitimization of them taking from black culture culture but and profiting from it. That feels very, very icky. And a part a big part of the conversation around appropriation is the fact that you know, it's one thing to try on try on blackness. But it is another thing to actually live through and have to face face anti black sentiments on a day to day basis and watch your children face anti black sentiments on a day to day basis. And and as I said, when I started this, like for me as a black person, even the days that I just want to blend into the background, particularly in Kingston, because there are so few black people in comparison to the full the larger population that I can't take off my blackness. I can't put it away for even five minutes. We have sorry, just trying to get we've Jane who's mentioned for circus circus is traced to forces in Britain, but almost all disciplines originated elsewhere. For example, oops, I lost it. Sorry. For example, Jane does Cordelis. But Malakam, I think is how it's pronounced Malakam rope gymnastics in India is way older. And I only know about it because of white artists who study the discipline. The indigenous Tiffany Warden says the indigenous hoop dance act in Cirque du Soleil show totem. Yep. And so this idea is of just like putting in these cultural aspects, and and performances to liven up or to exodify or, you know, to provide some sort of entry point into into the the the cultures or the practices that that that don't really belong with us, but we can again, like consume it and take from it from what we need. We have lots of others I'll come back to them. I do see one I've just seen from Kimmy King about different forms of digital blackface, not just as influencers, but also rappers like 69 who use black styles and the N word in their music. Yeah, that's a big one. And this emerging because of the technological advances and seeing again, going back to the minstrels, like if we look at the legacies of this minstrel as a form of art, as a form of art came about because came about because white people white men were painting their face, their faces block. And so what does that mean to be too quickly or easily be able to put on a filter, propagate stereotypes or say really racially harmful things. And then, and then, you know, go about your business and not have to deal with the consequences of that. So cultural appropriation is a huge, a huge part of the discussion around anti anti oppression. And there are parts of cultural appropriation, where there's conversations around. So what do we what do we talk about cultural exchange? And to get into that conversation that that's a whole other part. What we're thinking what what what we need to start at is the definition of culture, culture. For most people is thought of as quite being quite static being traditional being, you know, cultural costumes and and foods and so on and so forth. But culture also is really about like, again, what we normalize what how do you brush your teeth? That's a part of your culture. The things that we don't think about. And so cultures aren't static either. And so that that conversation really grows in in in size, when you when you enter that that realm. But for right now, we're talking about in terms of cultural appropriation, we're thinking about access, we're thinking about the commodification, and we're thinking about the way that capitalism is used to constrain and and to exploit exploit certain groups of people. And so moving on to talking about decision making in the arts. And again, thinking back to that exercise of of creating art as a resistance. What's really important in decision making is, you know, giving the appropriate time and consideration to research what it is that you want to do, and then doing it. And part of of that consideration is asking the hard questions, which hopefully in your while you were going through that exercise, you were doing that, you were asking who is represented, who is misrepresented in this space, that's a huge thing as well. Sometimes people are represented in and are represented but are being misrepresented at the same time. What is the impact that your art will be having all all actions have a reaction. So there was definitely a type of impact. And that's the impact counts more than what the intent is. How does this subvert the norm? Again, how are we being transformative in the messaging in in what we're in the work that we're putting out there is the casting tokenizing? Do we prioritize anti oppressive approaches to creating and have a strategy to follow? That's really, really important. The struggles over the issue of representation are essential to all forms of cultural production. Representation does not only concern the inclusion or the omission of images of racialized people in art, but also who controls the production, the transmission of ideas, images, discourse in art and society. So again, this idea about like not just who's in front of the camera, but also who's behind it. So we have to seriously in decision making, seriously consider what an anti oppressive environment looks like. And maybe you're having conversations with people who are part of your team, and you're having those conversations often, not just when there is an issue that has a has a reason. So your task really, once you leave this, the session is to go back to your five minute idea, and ask those hard questions of your five minute idea. And if you want to grow that idea, it's really important to make explicit goals to counter racism, to counter sexism, to counter ableism to counter homophobia, for example, it is it is really important to make those explicit goals. You could also cluster higher cluster casting, that could be something that reduces the potential to tokenize. And so I've said tokenize twice now. And just to give a brief insight into what that is, tokenize tokenization essentially is covert racism. And so it's where those in power maintain their privilege by exercising social and economic and or political power and muscle against the black indigenous and people of color communities. Tokenism achieves exactly the same thing while giving those in power, the appearance of being non racist, and even champions of diversity, because they recruit and use BIPOC, people as racialized props. And so this idea of performing this, this performance of anti oppression, this performance of non racism. And so non racism and anti racism, there's also a distinction there. Anti racism, or anti oppression, as I said, and previously is that it is the the active countering of the systems that exist. Non racism is kind of like letting it just happen, but just not participating in it being complicit, and not not take not doing your part to dismantle it. It is important in decision making to create a strategy or a plan to keep the guessing work out of it. We should not be guessing whether or not, you know, this could be racist or sexist or whatnot. We, if we create a strategy or plan, we can refer back to that. And then also, hopefully, we're not constantly using the labor, the emotional labor, emotionally taxing people who are part of these communities to keep reassuring you that you're doing a good thing. So remember, we're replacing behaviors and attitudes that are normalized within ourselves too. And so we can create a strategy or plan, we can, we can go back to it, we can update it, we can grow from it. This strategy and plan also helps helps keep us accountable to ourselves, but also to the public. We know that strategies build and evolve just as you would as well. And so it helps in the decision making. And so a big thing comes up here is like, Okay, but I'm really nervous about making a mistake. Well, what I want to say is that we won't always be perfect. Again, we live in a very particular society. And we are indoctrinated by these messages from birth until the point that we are now. And so it is important for you to think about that a mistake might is probably inevitable. And what you want to be thinking and including in your plan is how do you respond to that? And how do you move forward and plan for that? And so that will help reduce feelings of defensiveness or responding defensively. Because ideally, your back won't be against the wall where you're feeling you need to react. You've planned for this. And you are open to growing and learning some more. Okay. And so how do we then build these anti racist practices into our environments? How do we build that strategy? How do we build that plan? You know, it's about understanding the work. So learning about how your art sector organization participates in the marginalization of BIPOC artists of other marginalized groups. It's really important to do that learning and build that awareness. And again, part of that learning is learning about what society, what type of society do we live in? And hopefully, by the end of this, the session, you will be able to recall that long list of all of the type of the structure of our of our society, it's really important to be conscious to that. Otherwise, we will you will inevitably miss the subtleties that go on constantly around and that we also engage in that prop up the structure of our society. It also means doing the work internally, and being mindful of how your eccentric values aesthetic or otherwise, impose burdens and barriers and work to reduce those burdens and barriers for people around you. It's one thing you do it, you do it within yourself, but also recognizing how you're complicit in it. It's not enough to not do anything at all, or just say, you know, I don't say racist things, or I don't do, I don't assume racial stereotypes of individuals. Alright, it is really important to take that work that you're doing internally, asking those hard questions of yourself, and doing that work externally in the society around you. And so that could look like providing access or helping provide access to BIPOC artists, working to support empower BIPOC artists to increase representation, and responding to misrepresentation as well, and correcting that. It's also doing what's asked of you. And one of the things that you can do that is being asked of people everywhere is that, you know, be vocal against racist practices and attitudes, whether they are individual, whether it's an interpersonal interaction that you're seeing, whether they're systemic, I should say, systemic, not systemical, or whether they're cultural, which are sometimes harder to see. And so if you are doing that work, understanding, trying to understand the work, if you are trying to do that work internally, presumably, you're picking up on how culturally racism is a thing, how culturally ableism is a thing, how our world is set up around us to confer particular benefits to people who are able to fit into that structure perfectly. It's also important to intervene where necessary, and have the conversations with your community. I can't tell you how important, particularly in anti-racism, it is for white people to talk to white people about racism. There is a level of not just emotional labor, but also violence that that racialized people, black people, indigenous people face in being forced or being expected to teach white people about racism, or about how their actions, whether that be subconsciously or unconsciously enacted as really damaging and upsetting to an individual. That's not saying that you can't have conversations with racialized people about racism, but also recognizing that if you're doing that learning, if you're taking it upon yourself to do that work internally, part of the work externally is calling your people in and rounding them up and telling them what's what, and how to move forward and how to do better. So there's a lot of more learning. There's so much to learn to unlearn to relearn. And so what I want to say to you is don't stop here. Keep going. I've included a few points here of things that you could do if you wanted to Google them quickly. Remember, it is not it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. We can't be complacent. So we have to put in the work to get there. And so some of these modules can help help you in in that, in terms of understanding the work, in terms of understanding the society that we live in the structures that we live in, that's a really important thing to do. That was really important for thing for me to do, to understand the way how how exactly it is that racism functions. And because I have a bit better understanding of that, I see, I'm able to see things a little bit more clearly. There's a workbook called Me in White Supremacy by Leila Said, and that is a really a good one that you can purchase at any bookstore. And it's it gives you a daily journaling, and walks you through white supremacy. I think it would be really important to diversify your news. And so I really like the web page Galdam. As it's written on the screen, that's really important. I've you I've greatly depended on the color of democracy, racism in Canadian society, textbook to help me construct this, this presentation. So I would definitely encourage you to check that one out. See if you can get it from the library. And there is a free e module on racism on the Ontario Human Rights Commission's website is called call it out. So if you Google call it out OHRC, you should be able to to find it. And so that brings me to the end of the presentation, we have about 10 minutes remaining or a little bit longer than that. I want to thank you for listening attentively or presuming you are listening attentively. And, you know, just keep in mind that this is an entry point into the conversation, the conversation that has been going on for very, very long time. And so I want to encourage everyone who is watching this to keep going, keep on going. Don't stop, particularly don't stop when it gets hard either. Thank you. Hi. Okay, thank you so much, Lavi. I am so grateful for the lens you're able to bring. And especially, well, we had a few questions, actually. And I was really curious about cluster casting, if you wanted to speak a bit more about that Murdoch asked a question. Yeah, sure. So cluster casting is something that I've kind of just I'm kind of borrowing the concept from cluster hiring. And so in organizational in organizations like in like universities, the idea often we get calls for we need more indigenous professors, we need more indigenous staff or more racialized staff. And what we what we see happening is basically one individual will be hired, for example. And then they are the sole person who inhabits all of that identity and are kind of on the fringes of their cultural environment. And so their management doesn't understand them, their colleagues don't understand them or don't, or at least aren't able to be empathetic about how they're experiencing the structures as they are within the organization. And so what happens is eventually that individual, and sometimes it could be a couple of individuals, they'll get burnt out because they don't have the informal support networks necessary to to persevere. And feel like there is space for them to be themselves and to be successful in that in that organization. And so extending that to the arts world, I'm thinking about, you know, that tokenized actor or whomever being the only one. And, you know, again, experiencing those daily experiences of racism, cultural racism, and not having anyone who can relate can be a really difficult, a difficult thing. So what some institutions and organizations have done is decided to hire three or four or five people who have similar identities and work on similar projects or work areas of expertise, they hire them all at once, so that naturally, they'll already be a network of informal support that is created once these individuals join the organization. Awesome. Thank you. And I invite people if they'd like to turn back their videos back on for the questions. And especially if you have a question, please do turn your video on. We have one from from Greg earlier, he wrote, I believe old time fiddle music popular locally may sometimes include music from the minstrel era. Is there an appropriate way for white people, for example, to engage with this music? Should they be open and transparent about its racist history? Or should it be left alone by certain musicians? Well, I would say explore it in terms of go and read about it, go and figure out what exactly are those connections. And so if that does come up. And inevitably, if that is if they're if they're those connections are there, people will want to know and also recognize that for certain people who are aware of the history who hold heritage black heritage African heritage may choose to disengage from that art form or performance. And, you know, just trying to recognize, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing it? What value does it have? Yeah, and being quite transparent about that. Did you want me to read out some of the other questions, Lavi? Yeah, I'm not sure. We are. Yeah. So we've got a lot of thank you, especially for your research and putting together this presentation from Josh. And I saw. Oh, yeah, do you have social media that people can connect to? I do. I'm not very active on social media. And I think but I'm trying to say that that's a very intentional thing. But I have Instagram, which is it's at Horrid Hen Hen. I'll write it in the I'll write it in the box. Greg said thanks for answering my question, Lavi. So I think Carmel has a question from Leah or no. She was just asking what is the handle and you put it there. Great. Yeah. At the same time. I just want to reaffirm when you talked about intervention, I was at a workshop that turned into an anti-black racism intervention. And what I learned is the main takeaway was to step up when I see something happening. I come from an idea of, Oh, it's not my place. And, you know, I should let people speak for themselves. And that's like I that was the total. It was such a good takeaway to be freed from that conception that I should let other people because it's exact opposite. Yeah, that's what I can make a mistake. Right. Like I should if maybe they don't want me to but it's it's time for me to take a risk of making a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, I mean, and so there's a lot of there is a website. Oh, no, I'm not gonna remember it now. Maybe I'll share it with you, Tracy, but the talks about like bystanderism, I think I don't like that term because it kind of lulls people into this state of like inaction. They're like, well, it's part of psychology. So it's okay that I do this. And like it's about intervening. Yes, I think that there is a level where you need to be cognizant about the other person. Are you creating an issue that it's going to blow back on that person and become unsafe for them, but also for yourself as well. But I think that it's all it is it is if it's something that is a red flag for you, it doesn't seem to be appropriate. You can put that out there. You can say, you know, for me, whatever is happening right here is it shouldn't it shouldn't be happening. And then that kind of hopefully deflects from that individual who might be experiencing the harassment of discrimination or the group of people. And, you know, effectively draws that person into realizing whatever it is that they're doing is is is not appropriate. It looks like Murdoch has a question. Murdoch, did you want to ask? Did you want to turn on your mic or I can? Sure, I was trying to type it out. And then I'm not so great with the chat. Anyways, I'm so sorry. I'm trying to form it. But I'm also just trying to be brave and ask it. And which is I have a question about boards and in Canada, you can't be paid to sit on a board. And I have a really hard time, like, I run a very small organization, we can pay people and when like, as we're going through our staff or like, trying to be like, Okay, who is it we're going to pay? But I have such a hard time asking people of color and people who are marginalized to be on our board, because I'm asking for their labor. And I don't know how to rectify like that. And also wanting to ensure that the leadership of a board actually is like, diverse and doing that all the things I want it to do. So I haven't really, I struggle. And I think that that's, I mean, I don't know, I'm not familiar with the legislation, or I didn't know that legally people can't be paid to be on boards. I mean, I guess that kind of makes sense. I think and I see Holmes has a has her hand up. So maybe she wants to jump in now. But yeah, so this kind of ties into my question that I actually posted before Murdoch, which was a payment. Because sorry, where did I type here? That loss. Um, because like whilst I'm seeing like, a lot of thank yous and a lot of like, you know, this is great. But like, are you being compensated like right now for like, what you're doing? And words like, again, like Murdoch said, like, a lot of this work is free. It's undervalued. It is not paid for the boards, especially young teams usually have these boards, which are volunteer positions, which are held by marginalized people who do not affect change who are on the low end of the spectrum. We have people who are not calling out their higher ups, we have staff and such who are not saying anything. I want to ask like, as a person of color, how do I like a little bit of a flip from what Murdoch is asking? Which is how do I advocate for myself? How do I make sure that I get paid for this work? This work is valued. If it is truly valued, if we are all truly equal, then we should be paid for equal work and moving forward. How do we change that also? In terms of addressing biases, I do have to say Tracy, I'm just, I'm not French, I'm just black. Sorry. I am French, sorry. Yeah, Holm, thank you and Murdoch, thank you for your questions. I think the compensation is a big thing. Particularly at Queens, in my experience, I don't know if it's because there's this impression that most people who go to Queens, for example, are very well off and therefore they can do a lot of free work for the institution or for in the community. And I think exactly what you just said is, you know, articulating that and saying, you know, I think that this is really important and it sounds like you are placing a particular importance on this. And so, unfortunately for me, I am unable to help you in that capacity if my, if I'm not compensated appropriately because like this is labor, this is time, this is, you know, beyond like the like capitalistic production of labor, you know, this is emotional labor, this takes a lot to come here and do this. And so, I think for me, the question around am I compensated just in general? Well, for the work that I do, I mean, it's fabulous that I, I mean, I guess that's a weird way of putting it, but like it's great that like my full-time job is dedicated to focusing on that. Could I be paid more? Yes, but at the same time, I am very cognizant of the fact that there are a lot of people in other disciplines who do other things for their full-time jobs who are also then just expected to apply their lens for an institution or organization or what have you. And so, connecting that to the board positions, I think that it's going to be very individual. There's a lot of things that I do that I take my time to do for free. And I do that out of personal choice and agency to do that. And so, I think that, you know, expressing yourself and saying like, I would like you to be a part of my board. I can't compensate you formally in this way. Maybe there's a way like, you know, try and work out what works best for that person, I think, because I think if we kind of just get stuck at well, I can't compensate them. So, I'm not going to try and get that representation there. You, yeah, it would just kind of, it will fall flat. Then you'll never have that representation. And so, yeah, it is a complicated one. And then as an aside, I think as Black people, as people who are part of marginalized groups, you know, I would encourage creating our own as much as possible and, you know, starting from a place of complete agency. And I understand that that's not always possible. But can we envision that? So, we're not completely beholden by the structures that exist to oppress us. Thank you so much, Lavie. I will take the notes from the chat so that we can share some of the resources that were shared here. Elizabeth had a question, but Carmel has to go. We can follow up about the question, make sure it gets answered. Thank you so much, Lavie and Carmel. That was a lot of translating. And I'm really grateful that Lavie's words were translated so well. So, thank you. And thank you, everyone, for being here. I'm looking forward to following up with a lot of the resources and continuing this work. Yeah, take care, everyone.