 The Minister of Education, Prof. Thayer Mahman, as one members of the academia and the university community over matters of sexual harassment on campuses, maintaining that the federal government will deal decisively with perpetrators of such acts. He gave the warning when he received the report of the committee on alleged sexual harassment by the suspended dean of law for quality at the University of Calabar, Prof. Syri O. Indifon. He said sexual harassment is a serious criminal offense and must be dealt with decisively when and whenever it occurs, hardened that the federal Minister of Education will do everything humanly possible to tame the ugly tide in the nation's institutions of our learning. Joining me as we continue this conversation is Zenab Adiola Aguro, a woman of many parts apart from being a journalist and celebrity writer. Adiola is also an author. Adiola, it's a pleasure to have you guesting on Plus Politics this evening. Good evening, sir. Good evening everybody. Adiola, how would you describe the life of a young woman in a typical higher institution in today's Nigeria? Even if you want to stretch it, not only the life of a young woman in a typical higher institution but the life of a young woman say in the place of employment or functioning in a society where hogling sexual harassment now seems to be a cultural baggage to carry. Thank you. First of all, we have to know what constitutes sexual harassment. Everybody talks about sexual harassment. Is it when a man touches a woman alone or when you ask the woman to meet you behind closed doors? Is that what constitutes sexual harassment? You'd be amazed to know that sexual harassment is actually an unwanted, explicit, implicit advances. When a man makes advances that is unwanted and by all standards the victim because we like to see those who are going through the trauma of sexual harassment as victims. People don't see them as victims. Now, to answer your question, usually when a young girl, a young woman finds herself in a workplace or in the university or any tertiary institution, that person has dreams. You have ideals. You have so many things you want to achieve. You have everything or plant. You want to concentrate on your education. You want to achieve. You want to really work hard. Then you find yourself in the midst of people who are mostly higher ups, people who have an advantage over you and then directly or indirectly they are giving you the hints that for you to succeed, for you to go above your normal level, they need to take something from you in reward for another thing. What that means is whether the harassment is physical that is touching, actually grabbing you, or they are expressing it through other ways, text messaging or some don't even talk about it. They make innuendos. They say things that make you know that this is what they are implying. And you know and they know, they make it really clear to you that without you compromising, then there's no way for you. You can then imagine the psychological effects on such an individual. You have a number of years, for instance, that you want to spend in an institution or in the job place you think between a particular period and a period you should have progressed, you should have gone to the next level and then you find yourself having to deal with that ugly situation where you know without playing ball you may not achieve your dreams that the old purpose of being sad you are basically, if I understood you well enough you are basically saying that this is a game of power and that the men folk tend to hold the bigger hand of the stick. Well, you know what you are talking about females but you know that men are also harassed handsome men, tall men are also harassed by females those in higher authorities. So yes, most of the time sexual harassment comes from those who have an advantage over you. They know you need something badly and so they take advantage. Most of the time in higher institutions in the workplace maybe outside these two places sexual harassment would come from a woman who just genuinely desires a man without having an advantage over that man or a man having an interest in a woman without having an advantage but when it comes to passing an examination or getting promotion these are very very serious issues in higher institutions and in the job place it's mostly from men but it comes from women too but for today we are basing it on female students because that is really really the percentage is higher with female students and their lecturers. In the game of power we say usually the female students are the victims in most of the cases but it's not exclusive to only female students it's that some female lecturers too who hold power sometimes abuse male students if I've understood you well enough are those what you say? Yes but because we are talking about female students everywhere in the job place, in schools and females too victimize male students How would you respond to the assertion that some cynics tend to make that sometimes the ladies also ask for it I'm not saying they are right but we cannot totally discourage them however cynical the remark may be that some of these ladies sometimes machinate it sometimes try to use what they believe is their bodily asset to get to where they want to get to without necessarily paying the requisite intellectual, academic and literary price How would you respond to that? In that case the female students are the ones harassing the lecturers if the lecturers are not playing ball so in the case where you have a female student harassing the harasser maybe the lecturer also is interested in that case nobody would complain but in most cases yes female students actually make themselves available they offer themselves as sacrifices on the altar of great great be great, better great some students are very lazy they are not in school to do what they have been sent to do so they offer themselves in that case it is no longer an harassment because they are the ones offering themselves the question is now to ask whether they are right to do that or wrong definitely it is wrong a lecturer shouldn't allow himself to be used to give grace in exchange for sex if you are not passing a particular cause then you fail and repeat but you can call it harassment if the woman is the one offering herself in fact the male lecturer a male lecturer can actually say that he is being harassed he is not interested so there are two different things we are talking about here she is the one harassing the other person the other way around let me also ask you this there are some out there who believe that seldom would a young lady pass through a tertiary situation in today's Nigeria without being sexually harassed by some male members of the faculty that she has to pass through is that a generalistic and seemingly simplistic opinion does it have any level of credence to it because we found out it has been found out that because it is the norm in quotes for lecturers to take advantage so 70% of male lecturers actually see it as an advantage to go after girls they think are hot in school are not very brilliant because you wouldn't really want to harass somebody who is so brilliant the work would show the course work would show you can have evidences to show that he actually passed an exam but most of the time when there is a witness on the part of the lady or on the part of some girls the lecturers actually take advantage so it is a normal thing for girls who are lazy or who are not very studious or who maybe have some disadvantages maybe financial disadvantages to be in school because it is quite expensive to train a child now they may not be able to buy all the cost to buy all these handouts they are lagging behind in their assignment it is normal for lecturers maybe she is very pretty or that is the only thing she can offer the thing she can offer it is really really high the percentage is high about 70% it is a reality we cannot shy away from it is happening everywhere in Nigeria how well how well is the political class and I mean members of various legislatures at the state level and the federal level how well are they using the law to fight this unfortunate phenomenon you see there are so many federal laws and state laws I think the states and local government laws are to go after perpetrators of all these things but the thing is yes the laws are in place and actually they are working I will tell you that there are lawyers out there that actually help students who are victims of such abuses because it is an abuse but is it it is for the students to actually know that they are being abused or they are right are being taken away from them and then to seek redress but how many of them actually approach the courts how many of them are being educated enough to know they are right most of the time because they are also on the other side of the law maybe they are not doing certain things right and they do not want to spend an extra year they play ball they bow to pressure but how many people actually work to the law the law is there to protect them especially in Nigeria the law in the olden days people laugh at you when you complain about sexual harassment some would even say has it raped you is it not just saying it or is it because the issue of rape is quite different from sexual harassment let's not confuse the two but you know some people suffer it in silence maybe because they are also deficient in some federal laws are very clear on these state laws and even local government laws all you have to do is to report to the right authorities and they take it off I am sure that some lawyers so many human rights lawyers do pro bono cases on such matters but how many students actually work up to them what is your opinion of the the magnitude of the unfortunate phenomenon even amongst the political class how easy it is how easy is it today in Nigeria for a woman to be involved in partisan politics and not be sexually harassed or goat or indeed one way or the other emotionally abused what would be your take of that that would make me open a can of worms because it's very rare to be candid to be in politics to be a female in politics and not have been exploited harassed and the way male politicians look at it in Nigeria is they are doing you a favor for you to get to the next level in politics you know politics I don't know how they play it in other climes but in Nigeria it's a game of the night because most political meetings happen in the night in fact they get they draw a drag until the very very very late hours of the night so women in politics are usually at the mercy of men and then they want to aspire to become this or that in fact able to become anything in politics in Nigeria you find out that you need a godfather and most of the time the godfather sees himself as somebody who protects you from the other men so he has to play his role in politics by pulling you under his wings that if you are his mistress that you are married or not under his wings then he is protecting you from other men and you know the moment they say all these things are whispered you are guys girlfriend or you are social so girlfriend other men may just leave you alone so and then maybe when that guy is no longer in power you need to get to the next level the other person you meet there so is this harassment it's also a form of harassment because sir you are giving me an impression that it is indeed an emotional ability to be a woman in Nigeria well depends on how you look at it if you are a woman in business and you are holding your own business you don't have except you are begging for patronage then you find out that you may not face harassment and that's the truth you may never face let me cite an example I'm sorry if I have to cite this example I once worked with you journalist to journalist and I was under your wings and you never harassed me we worked together we traveled the length and breadth of Nigeria and you never harassed me the same thing with Waliari Shekola and some other people that I worked with I'm sorry I'm mentioning names and you people gave me platforms to express myself so I'm using myself as an example but I've heard so many ugly stories you are different maybe your friend Waliari Shekola is also different maybe that's why you are friends but most of it it's not really a liability if you are in business I'm in business now I run so many things are you saying that even within the ranks of journalist even in journalism it does happen is that what you are insinuating from the last remark well in the media I doubt if it is right I doubt it the reason is that you get your assignment to go out there you do your assignment there is nobody to cover up for you nobody can just mark you and say in the media they give you targets you have to meet your targets so anyway you don't meet your target is it your editor or your producer that will do your work for you they can cover up for you so in the media it's not as bad as it is out there colleagues date one another people want to date bosses in order to get to certain desk that will give them money all these things are real but it's not as bad as it is in other places I really want to thank you for guesting on the show virtually from Abuja I guess you are in Abuja no I am in Lagos I am visiting Lagos okay good to know you are in Lagos thought you are in your your new town Lagos not showed you Lagos polished you Abuja seemed to have smashed you but never mind thank you this is how we thank you so much unfortunately in this program today the producer is not the conventional producer so the producer has not lined up today's throwback I guess we do today's throwback on Monday and that's how we will hand the show today I am Borla Oba have a good night