 So, your preliminary statement on the Zimbabwe elections drew a sharp reaction, particularly from ZanoPF officials, some government officials maybe, who thought you were not really fair. What do you think caused the misunderstanding? I think that they misguided themselves, whether it's deliberate or not. You must understand Zimbabwe is one of the oldest members of Sadiq. Zimbabwe knows the protocols of Sadiq. Zimbabwe and government knows that they are the vice chair of Sadiq. They know about this little booklet. And they misguided himself to say that the head of mission, in this case, myself, I wrote that report by myself. Maybe you need to explain. I was going to ask you who prepared the report. So, I'm coming to that. But I think that's their problem. They thought that Neva Smumba is the one who prepared the report. So, they are shooting at the wrong animal in the bush. They are pursuing a totally wrong animal. They killed it. They wouldn't eat it because that's not the animal they are after. Like I said in the beginning, Sadiq is a well-structured organization. And it must add that Sadiq is one of the most respected regional groupings on the continent of Africa. And it's respected at AU. It is respected at UN because of the manner in which they attempt to represent their nations. So, what happens is that from the day we arrived, the process began. I arrived to a whole list of meetings. Stakeholders come to the hotel where we were hosting as the command center. And we met ambassadors, the Sadiq ambassadors. We met European ambassadors. We met political party leaders, both from the opposition and also from government. We met government officials at Tony General, the Inspector General of Police. We met civil society. We met the church. I mean it was a long list, close to 16 different organizations and individuals who gave us feedback on the perception of the election, of the difficulties they see, the hurdles and the unfair things that they saw and they fed that to us. After that, we now had a very robust media team occupying a whole room where they were monitoring all media that is in Zimbabwe and coming from outside the country and they will feed me as head of state and they will feed the secretariat with that information. So that was also added to our investigation of the election. Then beyond that, on the 18th of August, we flagged off and sent 50 of our observers in the 10 provinces of Zimbabwe. And then from the 18th, they began now to feed the headquarters with the observations prior to the election and we are receiving these reports every night would sit in front of a big screen using technology, getting reports from other provinces and updating our data and information. On election day, they were busy feeding the centre with all every little development that they saw, they reported to the headquarters and after we get all that information, then we give it to the drafts team. The drafting team was composed of about 12 people from 9 different Sadiq countries. We had South Africa, we had Botswana, we had Malawi, we had Tanzania, we had Eswatini, we had Namibia, we had Zambia and we had 9 Sadiq countries. So this was not a Zambian mission, this was a Sadiq mission and they sat around the table, got all this information together and worked on a draft statement, which we call primary draft statement. And it was that statement that was now brought to the table where it was edited, removing anything that we felt was not supported by other evidence and other facts and I was not even there for that meeting. It was the secretariat of Sadiq, it was the troika, that is troika means that Zambia is the chair, President Hagaende Chilema is the chair, but his representative was Ambassador Chibanda and then Namibia had their representative as well as the immediate past president chair of the troika. Then we also had Tanzania, which are the incoming after President Hagaende Chilema to return to Tanzania. So those are called the troika. So there is the secretariat, the troika, then there is a group called SIAC and this is the advisory council of Sadiq on matters of elections and everything. It's a group of lawyers and we were honored to have a judge, who is an active judge from Eswatini. These are the ones who go through every detail to make sure that we are legally sound in the statement. So these sit around the table and flash that thing on the screen and scrutinize it sentence by sentence by sentence and edit it. After they finish editing, then they call me, I had an office there at Sheraton, they would call me and say, Mr. Head of Mission, now we have finished our job. Can you come? Here is the report. Here is the report. So then I will sit with all of them. We were more than 25 of us in that room with the draft report. I looked at it and I had to compare what they had written to the notes I was taking when we were interviewing the stakeholders. For them, they were privileged because I didn't find anything in the report that was not coming from the stakeholders who had talked to us. So I made no changes in the statement. So just to ask you there, how much influence do you have as Head of Observer Mission to alter and impute things into the report? I think I could suggest if I think that something is not right and is not supported by fact. I don't think you have that unilateral power because these are professionals. This is what they do. So if you are going to challenge what they have written, you really have to have a good reason why you are challenging it. So I think that it is important to make this clear because I have heard people saying that Nevers wrote this statement. Nevers didn't write the statement. Nevers read the statement. So when people rise up to come after Nevers, they are really totally misled and then they are also saying it was President Haka Indi Ichilema who took that report and changed things and gave it to his tujnevers so that he can create an embarrassment for Zimbabwe. Far be from it. President Haka Indi Ichilema looked at the report and just like me he never changed a word of what the technocrats did, of what the professionals did. Not a single word. I must remind you when he sent us to Zimbabwe I was waiting for him to give me a long list of what I must be doing there. He never did. He said to me Mr. Vice President go on behalf of Sadek and all I expect from you is to help to give the Zimbabwans a free, fair and credible election. Those are the only he said it twice. I need nothing from you Mr. Vice President but free, fair and credible election you would have done your job. When I was in Zimbabwe and we were on our way to go and see President Muna Gagwa to pay a courtesy call on him I contacted the president here President Haka Indi Ichilema I said Mr. President we are going to see your colleague do you have a word for him any greeting whatever he said no the only thing you tell my colleague is that let's go ahead and give the Zimbabwans a free, fair and credible election. He repeated the same words. So there was So there was one mandate there was no instruction from President Haka Indi Ichilema he had no input in this speech which is now being debated globally. The preliminary report one of the obligations of observers and observer mission in line with the Sadiq principles and guidelines governing democratic elections which you've referred to is for you to maintain strict impartiality in your conduct not to show bias not to express any bias or preference in relation to the candidates and whatever is happening in that direction but your impartiality was called to question that you sided with Chameza. Just like I said on the issue of saying that Nevers wrote the statement they were looking for anything because I think this report is not common in the Sadiq country some of them they don't expect Sadiq to challenge anything they expect Sadiq to just go with whatever is going on and this is maybe the first time the experience of there was a reaction then they created a story that the Sadiq went to accompanied Chameza to the polling station to vote a total fabrication this was supported by photos not of course not at the polling station but of you sitting with Chameza when I sat with Chameza the next time he came to meet Sadiq with his team and we took pictures just like we took pictures with President Monagawa and these are things that are really shocking me that people think would go to observe an election and not talk to stakeholders Who else did you meet maybe you need to explain We met 11 contenders did you meet all of them We met about 4 of them the others were not coming forth so we met President Chameza and his team we met President Monagawa and also we met the Secretary General of Zano PF at their headquarters with his entire team so these are the interactions we had but let me go back to your question so they said that never and the Sadiq team escorted Chameza I think they were now trying to create a story we never escorted Chameza in any case even if we had gone where he was going it was still in order because anytime you as an observer you find out two things where is the incumbent going to cast his vote where is the leading opposition going to cast their vote then you split yourselves as observers some go where the president is casting the vote the others go where the opposition is casting the vote in this case president Monagawa was casting his vote in Kwekwe which was very far away from Harare so our observers there went and took care of that those of us that were in Harare went where Chameza was but he found us there we didn't go with him I never made any contact with him no eye contact he didn't see me we were observing and the reason we do that is to make sure that when we write our report it's legit he could come up and say they did not allow me to vote or they stunned me but if you are observing you can say no Mr. Chameza that's not what happened we were there we observed it so I think that is cheap for people to say what they are saying and I know maybe the emotions that are attached to an election but we went to Zimbabwe in order to lift up the hands of the Zimbabwean people and work with them to realize their dreams and ensure that we point out those things which in the next election they can work on look here in Zambia we have received some of the most damning electoral reports from different observer missions and what we do is well we take those things take what we think we can use to correct our ways and those things we don't agree with we diss them why is this so different because Zimbabweans they are supposed to appeal against this through the channels that are created you can't play this game on the streets this is very high level stuff you can't play with this on the streets and I think that I am confident myself that Zimbabwe is going to do the right thing I believe that Zimbabwe is going to follow the procedures and they are going to have their questions answered one thing that is surprising is that with the people that are challenging our statement there is no one who has come to say this issue that you have raised here is wrong the issue of the constitution this constitution we gave to ourselves and you as an observer mission you cannot turn yourself into a constitution review commission and pass judgment on the constitution that issue is in this little booklet in other words the SADIC observer team has got the responsibility to come here to Zambia and if you've made a law that says that you cannot campaign only the ruling party can campaign the SADIC will take note of that law and put it in their report as a recommendation to the member state that that law stands in the way of free and fair elections and your parliament must look into that law because we are a community we have agreed on certain norms and those norms must reflect democratic norms so I think that that question of saying that we are trying to interrogate their law no it's a law that impedes in the free and fair elections and I think that we must continue to be strong to ourselves you know maybe it's the African thing you know Africa we use euphemism to talk to each other instead of saying that you know allow people to look at the for instance the ballot papers it's in our report the stakeholders in Zimbabwe did not see the ballot papers until the day of voting they don't know who they only knew who printed it three days before the elections they don't know how it moved to the police station there's no one who goes with it so these are issues that we feel like we must learn from each other peer review mechanism see how other countries do it remember we can get in a caller Mr Mueva from Lusaka Mr Mueva welcome to the program go ahead and ask your question good evening good evening good evening Dr Mumba let's go ahead we can hear you yes I wanted to find out something I've been listening to Dr Mumba you know writing writing a report is one thing the format and the language of the report is another thing now that report which he wrote rewrote this is a collective responsibility was it in line with the guideline the subject guideline and the policies in other words is there a format in which the the report must be presented and the language in the report because what I'm sensing here is that probably the people in Zimbabwe are offended one by the language and probably the format of the report it was not in line with the the expectations because the subject guidelines give the kind of language that should be used in the report and the format we've got a question is there a format let me help him also by telling him that when he says the people of Zimbabwe that's not true just go to social media and find out what Zimbabwe you'll be shocked on how they have embraced this report so when he says Zimbabwe I do not think that's accurate but let me come to there's a template that is used all the time to report so we did not create a new template it's a template which you populate as they observe and I must say that this is a highly scientific process it's a scientific process because it has a system to it and it has headings already and they populate each one of those headings so to answer our colleague who asked the question yes there's a template that is used by Sadiq and it follows the guidelines of Sadiq one thing I want to assure the Zambians is that this report that was done and I'm talking to Zambians now because some people tried to mislead Zambians but this report that was done was done in accordance with the guidelines of Sadiq we never went out there could be a mistake maybe in a comma a full stop or a word which may mean two things because life is not perfect but in terms of the foundations upon which we built the statement it was built on the constitution of Zimbabwe we had to always have the copy of the constitution and if there was a departure from their own laws we pointed it out like I said it's the electoral act and it guides the Zimbabweans how they are going to handle their elections and if they depart from it the observer says but you departed from this the third thing are the guidelines for Sadiq and these three guided us right away through until the statement was made so it can stand strong and tall in any courthouse this statement the whole issue now is standing to Western imperialism and Marxism should this be the topic of debate maybe before you go there I didn't honor your question which you asked before that and I think it's fair that I talk about the impartiality issue that you talked about I think it's unfair to say that never or Sadiq is impartial and some of the people decided that because Chamisa is a pastor then I'm impartial and I think it's an insult to my integrity and to my dignity that I can compromise my sense of judgment because Gravasio had lunch with me yesterday and if he's done the wrong thing that I don't operate like that I am addicted to justice I am addicted to fairness that's really what I am as a pastor or just as a political leader Zambias know that if you want truth talk to Nevers I will not depart it's painful like I'm paying a high price now there are people that are already in this country that have been sent to look for me and they have been talking to my pastors with cameras trying to create stories about me but that doesn't move me because truth shall set you free it doesn't matter how long it takes I was yes he's a pastor but I don't even know Mr. Chamisa's wife I don't know his children I know he's a pastor I've never heard him preach so I do know him he has a passion for his country but I also know President Munagagwa and I was with him and we had a lot of laughter to do he has a strong Zambian background he speaks most of our languages and when I was at statehouse we were using Zambian language to speak to each other so I have that kodo relationship it has nothing to do let's get in a caller before we lose we'll take up from Mumpika you are through to the program please go ahead and ask your question Good evening Good evening Dr. Momba Good evening I represent an organization called Community Action Agnet Polisko Volumes I'm the Secretary General for that organization Mine is more of a comment than a question I think to begin with it is important that we need to be a brother's keeper as far as the country is concerned one of the reasons that you realize that they are unrests in Afrika and in the country is the issue to do with the governance especially when the citizens feel that the electoral process and governance is not fair so from our point of view I think it is important to applaud Sadik through the president Mr. Hagaide Chamber and also the the observer leader that he said Dr. Nevas Momba because that report like you have said Dr. Momba it is not your report I think that's where we are missing it as citizens and also especially we have seen some sentiments from other opposition political parties that are just alarming that is like Dr. Momba went to Zimbabwe and our current president want to change the governance of Zimbabwe so I think as a brother's keeper Sadik member states should go into an honesty conversation with the Zimbabwe leadership in as far as we have to allow you to go we need to allow Dr. Momba thank you so much for calling in and for your contribution let me help here I think that the narrative that is going on that President Hagaide Chamber and Nevas Momba are being used by western powers to effect regime change in Zimbabwe I think to me is one of the most unfortunate cheap statements that anybody can make first of all President Hagaide Chamber didn't send me there as a president he sent me there on behalf of Sadik and they must respect the chairmanship that is being held by President Hagaide Chamber he has been given that he was elected to be that and all Sadik must respect that role that is playing and he chooses whom he believes and I believe that we did deliver on behalf of not just Zambia but on behalf of Sadik and I think that this usage gravazio of the word the western western imperialism communism papet if you give me four minutes let me deal with this subject to my brothers and sisters in the political field of this country we are not cheapen ourselves to try to divide ourselves as a people between two powers that have nothing or very little to do with us we are not westerners we are not communists we are Africans and if you start to divide the continent along those lines you are cheapening who you are we have our own interests as Africa yes I think that for us as Zambia our approach has been to work with any country who can help us to better the lives of the Zambian people the west for instance there are things we like about the west and things we don't like about the west and we call the western thing the western thought it is a thought of freedom a thought of democracy a thought of regular elections so every Zambian every politician who goes to vote on a voting day he is exercising a western thought so he is a western puppet anybody who goes to vote if you want to use that puppet issue he is a western puppet because voting and regular elections are a western thought it is a freedom the freedom of expression the freedom of association that is why that is very close to the bible where God allows people to freely choose their own things that they want and that's where that comes from the eastern bloc which my colleagues here in this country perpetuate and push we have nothing against them I like the infrastructure projects with us Russia helped a lot of African countries to receive their independence but there are things we don't celebrate about them for instance we think that maxism communism socialism these isims are the ones that control they control the people they want to think for people and people's thinking is actually regulated by government and they are not that chechi that's where you found in China in Russia the persecution of Christians is high there and then also the thing some of us don't like there and I don't like things like homosexuality on the western side we like their engagement with structures but you must understand China and Russia they are the ones that really look down upon black people if you look how they treat black people you cannot say that they are our messias we are our own messias we have chosen God as a leader of our country and we should make sure we do that let's get in the corner Zulu on the line ambassador go ahead and ask your question good evening good evening good evening vice president good evening sir first of all I should congratulate you for the fact that what you did in Zimbabwe thank you the Zimbabwe issue is historical you did Zambia beauty you remember that even during the time of when we were fighting and going to Lancaster house Kenneth Kaunda was accused of favoring Joshua Ankomo Robert Mugabe when president Robert Mugabe became president President Manawasa was equally accused of having favored the opposition in that country so that is not new what we need is to follow what you have done done it very very well for Zambia we need to engage Zimbabwe without fear or shame so that we can find a common ground in terms of democracy we as Zambians are not happy with that what that country has gone through has gone through traumatic period but what you did you did Zambia what your forefathers could have done you could have not done anything better than what you did we need Zambians to do your job in that country I'm sure that Zambia will begin to understand what you stand for and what Zambia stands for we don't favor anybody we favor proper democracy in our region thank you so much for coming through thank you for your contribution maybe doctor you would pick this other question also the importance of free and fair elections to Sadiq and Africa I know according to the guidelines Sadiq oppressed with 5 key concepts looking at credible elections transparent elections peaceful elections free elections fair elections you know why if we don't work hard on ensuring that the elections in our region are free and fair will create a problem for ourselves people will start to find other ways this is why Sadiq insists on all member countries to comply with those that you have just read transparency is one of the biggest problems that we are facing right now and if we don't do that like I was saying when the call came in there are a lot of us in the political world today and I won't mention any names that have become so reckless in trying to divide us between the west and the east and someone saying that Haga indeshlema is a puppet of the west and puppet, puppet every day they are also puppets of whosoever they dance their music to so you cannot call your friend a puppet just because it doesn't believe in what you believe the reason they are doing that is to divide this country and I have to warn the politicians you know our friends all of us in politics Zambians you know our friends people we fraternize with look at the friends each one of us has look what they are doing in west Africa they are trying to create the same situation here they are trying to prepare an atmosphere for calls around Africa and they have chosen certain political leaders to speak a certain language of bringing a division to say this one is a western puppet this one is I don't know what they call themselves like you know they belong to the east they belong to Marxism socialism they belong to communism we have to be careful it's no longer funny what is happening in Africa must be stopped and it must be stopped now when you see the signs in any one of us that we don't have the country at heart we want to become presidents at any cost it does not matter who dies in the process you must stop us as Zambians so I want all of us in politics let us be bigger in our own personal ambitions Zambia must come first let's get in some messages we've got people that have been texting us and trying to participate in the program to ask a few questions so most of them are coming from our facebook page we're going to get them we've got New Life Tanda Varai on behalf of Zimbabwe in masses we are fully behind you Dr. Neversa we've got Tim Jones Dr. Neversa Mumba did a fantastic job the only problem is everyone is afraid to say what the truth was recent Sibu Senga for once you have revived the Sadiq you left a lifetime mark of true patriot Tichafara Yamutawera Sampa Elimusanda you have jeopardized our relationship with Zimbabwe as head of the mission you have jurisdictions to offer any judgment I think you do not have jurisdiction to offer any judgment as the country in question has existing legal system to deal with such the last one it was an embarrassment seeing your statement different from steps man as Nyoma and Chisano there were no statements from Nyoma or Chisano you could react to we can react to the messages this is the problem we have in Zambia very few have read the report that colleague of ours is saying that the statements from Nyoma and Chisano there were no statements from Nyoma and Chisano because they were not observers in that President Chisano was there not as an observer he is working on a program with the government of Zimbabwe so I think that for the bigger part the Zimbabwan people know what we attempted to do we cannot choose leaders for them they choose leaders for themselves we go there asadek to stand shoulder to shoulder with them to ensure that there is credibility in the system that raises their leaders because a 40 and a flawed process produces a flawed result and therefore our concern is to make sure that every saddick nation abides by their own regulations that they have said for themselves so we appreciate those who see what we attempting to do but obviously some people don't read they are saying that you have brought division within saddick we haven't brought division this report because it's best on truth shall become a sign of integrity in the region remember that saddick is coming from a place where it is facing credibility issues it's facing credibility issues because of what happened in Malawi in Malawi saddick gave it their signature that the election was free and fair and it was good only a few months later it was overturned by the courts that it was fraudulent and when the things were coming out it embarrassed saddick to such levels that it's only now that saddick is rising up through this report that we can observe write what we observe face the cameras and tell them that this is what we have found out if we are wrong let Zimbabwe go to the process that has been established by saddick and lodge their complaints and they can be heard at that point but we stand by this report it is rooted in truth it is rooted in the people that were professional when they were working on it over 20 people went through that from different countries you are through the program I think we've lost a period now we can stay on on that other question you've saw the relations between Zambia and Zimbabwe could that be the correct position maybe that is writing from some attacks coming from ruling party members look at the end of the day listen to what the Zimbabweans are saying on the streets I think that's where you can get the judgment of this report we are political animals the political leaders in Zimbabwe there are also politicians kadas and stuff like that they don't think in the line of the order that they have created for themselves and I have no feelings of hatred for those who have spoken against me those who have insulted me insulted my family insulted everything that I stand for they have started investigations in this country it's okay with me it's not the first time it's happening but when it comes to truth I don't compromise on that and the language that was used was moderated in order to make sure that our point is heard and I think that we need to solve the problem that is there and the problem is that we are trying to divide ourselves as a continent alongside western and eastern and that's not our battle and I think Zimbabwe must challenge this report by telling us that point 1 2 3 is wrong then we can go back to their constitution or we can go to this little booklet and show them where we are anchoring that report and for the Zambians I would like to advise them there's no need for us to panic there's no need for us when somebody goes out there out of the country to represent the country to hate I know that you may not like the person that has gone that has been asked to play that task but you are Zambians listen first to all facts before you start to throw so you can make any judgment let's get in a call Mr. Kasama from Mansa you are through to the program go ahead and ask your question good evening good evening Dr. Mumba good evening sir we don't have a question as such I just want to comment and my comment is that I'll be very honest with you I'm so proud of you you are an upright man in Africa I think we are going astray because when we look at leaders we think we are like gods I think this high time we started moving away from that kind of thinking and it can only take upright people like you Dr. Mumba to show the world that we as Africans are able to see through that this is wrong, this is right I'm proud of you keep it up Dr. Mumba thank you Mr. Kasama so doki we're trying to explain and as you explained that look there's no need to divide East and West that's a big topic now and then there's the issue of relations I think you still have to get back to that but then you also have to talk to the politics changing politics on the continent Africa in particular and that's what I want to do last but I just want to go back a little bit on saying that we have divided or rather we have injured the relationship between Zambian and Zimbabwe let me repeat I did not go to Zimbabwe as a Zambian taking the Zambian Electro Act as a Zambian Constitution to observe that election we took the Sadiq instruments to be able to assess that if Zimbabwe at any time has a problem with the report they are not going to come to Zambia they cannot blame President Haka what is going on is unacceptable there is no reason why Zimbabwe should involve President Ichilema in this noble task that has been done he's doing his job to respect him and some of the statements that are coming from they are totally unacceptable whether they have the blessings of the leadership of the country we don't know and that's not for me to say but I think that let's not react so dramatically and drastically to a report that you can challenge through the normal avenues that have been provided for us so I think that we need to run away nothing has been injured and Zimbabwe and the Zambian people will always be brothers and sisters we've always been like that and no politician will divide Zambia and Zimbabwe whether it's a Zambian politician or it's a Zimbabwan politician we are one people and we shall remain one people so you were asking about this message of caution to the Zambians of caution to the Zambians changing trends I have already mentioned here today let's not act like we don't know what's happening on the continent of Africa the coups that are taking place in the western part of our continent these are realities on the ground how do they start they start with unruly political leaders desperate political leaders who start to make inflammatory statements against those in government or their friends who are leading them and they try to make them look like these are people who are being used by other nations to impose themselves here I mean I was very disappointed to hear somebody in Zimbabwe saying that Havendo Isklema was installed by by imperialists how do you explain that to the millions that lined up at 4, 5 o'clock in the morning to those imperialists that you're talking about and we don't take that kindly we don't take that kindly because at the end of the day they're trying to prepare the ground for a swear of people start to say yes he's been placed there by imperialists no, that is not acceptable and I say to Zambians watch us as politicians please watch us stop clapping for us when we make these statements that we are making in order to win political mileage it's not a game there are lives in this country that need to be protected future for our children and our grandchildren and it's not about you becoming president it's about Zambia being protected and we need to be fair in the manner we campaign for the high office of president and I think it's important that all of us Zambians be on a lookout stop clapping for things that are going to destroy the nation let's clap for things that will unite the nation lastly doc and a minute from the Zimbabwe election we're running out of time I think that we have a situation now where Zambia can learn the fact that whenever we are challenged by the community to which we belong in this case Sadiq we should not react like we have no other avenues to react I think that Zimbabwe should show the fact that they are members of Sadiq and I'm sure they will do that and I suppose by saying that I do not want us to go home thinking that there is a break between Zambia and Zimbabwe this was not a Zambian program this was a Sadiq program and we are sure that Zimbabwe will come right after it all settles down tomorrow they're having the inauguration and once they get back to work I'm sure that all the engines of peace making between the two of us and amongst the Sadiq nations will happen I'm very positive we don't need anything to divide us we need everything to bring us to the other It's been a pleasure having you on the program Thank you so much You've been watching signed the interview and this evening our guest was Dr. Nevas Mumba former vice president and head of Sadiq Electoral Observation Mission to Zimbabwe I'll be back next week sometime pleasant viewing