 So moving on to better anime that we've actually seen all of big O2 which we've talked about twice before we're done with it we've seen the end and There's actually a lot there the show went in directions. I didn't expect at all. Well, I expected the direction it went Oh, yeah, but I didn't expect the magnitude of the direction it went in. I Don't know it seemed about right to me. I mean I guess the warning I have for anyone who's thinking about watching the show is that it Literally and I know I mean literally in a literal sense pulls an Evangelion. Oh, yes, very much so the ending is Very has many many parallels with the ending of the Evangelion TV As in there's action going on and then the show kind of pans back and does the same thing of hey I use big robots to trick you into watching my show now. Here's the moral Moral yep, and then fade out the end See now the thing is is I had seen this show maybe four or five years ago I probably would have had a much better opinion of it. It's just that I've seen so many shows that like They should they you know, they put the moral as the ending instead of after the ending You know and they just all of a sudden turn into this huge like blatantly meta in your face Metaphorical type of thing That he just it doesn't you know do it for me as much as it used to especially when I it's pretty much like I seen it All so if you do the same thing again, it doesn't doesn't work Well, at least the thing is the moral is pretty much present in every single episode of big O2 That is true. It just plays out over and over and over again So if you watch the first six or seven episodes and you can't figure out where the show is going You might want to brush up on your plot predicting skills Yeah And if you can't figure it out even after the first season of big O which I guess I can somewhat understand If you don't know what's gonna happen after like the first two episodes of big O2 or just in the first one episode of big O2 You know everything, you know, that's it just you know everything that is basically every episode of big O2 Does it plays out in a different way? It's always the same moral but it plays out sometimes in a funny way sometimes in a serious way sometimes in a weird way Sometimes in a super metaphorical way, but every episode has the same kind of thread of who am I? Why do I exist metaphysical extant kind of philosophy blah blah blah? Mm-hmm now I Actually really really am satisfied with how the show ended as opposed to big O1 Which I would have killed people if they hadn't continued it I just view the whole thing as one show called big O. Yeah, but the just this is a separation where the second half starts like it Kind of like how I be about where this is the first half and then You know, there's the Jupiter jazz whatever and there's the second half Yeah Only the thing is how I view up a lot of the episodes had nothing to do with the overall plot But in big O all then did but it the same I'll talk about the same kind of separation that Calvary We've I've had into two halves is that what big O has yep now If you if you saw a big O one you weren't impressed and you're just not even considering big O2 I highly recommend just watch the first DVD of big O2 in the very least Because the first episode of big O2, which we've mentioned a couple times before is really really well done and interesting Yeah, I think there's one problem with big O is that it sort of Misrepresents itself in that a lot of people will watch like the first one and be like oh, this is just Batman You know or it kind of is the first one Yeah, they're like oh, this is just steam detectives clone with Batman And it sort of is but that's really just the setting and the you know the the style and the items used in terms of Like the plot and act the characters and what happens. It's totally not any of those things I mean the first 13 episodes are kind of just flim and they're not there's not really that much to them except If you watch big O2 and then you think back to big O one it one There's a lot more meaning there and you see a lot more and to You you pull the whole anime logic thing because Otena had the same deal in Otena Which for any of you haven't seen it weird things happen like weird anime things like there's a magic arena where people fight duels and this castle in the sky like falls down on someone but they don't get killed and Most people watch the show and instead of thinking that was fucked up. Why did that happen? What the hell they think? Oh, that's just the way this anime is. I'm not gonna worry about it Well, and then at the end of Otena they're like they explained like oh There was a reason why didn't I wonder why there's a frickin floating castle in the sky There's actually a perfectly rational explanation for it It's one of those things where they make you suspend disbelief by putting the show on as a fantasy or a sci-fi But in reality, you shouldn't have suspended disbelief, you know because It was actually real or something. I mean the big O is a very unrealistic robot It's big and it punches things in ways that you really can't do so think about that How could that actually be? Because it is in the show it happens and they explain it very directly in a very heavily handed way Yeah, there are a lot of things in the show actually that go completely Unexplained, you know, it's it's weird because they always look for a rational explanation for things and they'll always talk about things in a strange way and You just you know, you think what the hell are they talking about, you know What are the rules of the universe this show is in when the whole time? The show is in the same rules as our universe. They're just making you suspend disbelief, you know And tricking you into doing it when you shouldn't yep big O one does it really well But notice even in big O one I mean half the time there's robots fighting and a quarter of the time There's funny stuff But a lot of the whole first season and much of the second season is just Roger talking to himself Mm-hmm. Now a lot of people just kind of gloss over what he's saying because it's just you know typical Metafilla metafilosophy blah blah blah. Oh, but if you really listen to the words he's saying That's what the whole show is about And there's actually a lot there Cuz I'm gonna go off on one of my philosophical things because I got a lot out of big O2 and I guess a spoiler warning I'm gonna do my best not to ruin the show But if you really are worried about big O2 being ruined for you, you could probably stop listening For at this point because we're not doing any medivits after we talk about big O2 but Basically consider the premise of big O2 the premise is that for and big O 40 years ago Everyone lost their memories and no one knows what happened in the world before that time. There's no clue yet Everyone just got on along with their lives and lived and played whatever roles they decided to play in the new world and The people who live the best were the ones who didn't worry about what happened before or what came before Because there was really no way to know now That seems kind of weird, you know, you don't know what happened 40 years ago And it's a very direct problem to these people and some people can't handle it But look at our world the real world the world we're in right now meet space We we have the same issue except it just it's much further into our history We don't know the history of humanity We have a lot of theories, but we really don't know what civilizations were and what happened to them and where people came from and what they did and why we're here now and But a lot of people don't think about it because it's so long ago that the only people who worry about it are Philosophers because most people they just think back and they don't really consider the fact that we have no clue where we came from Historians think about it, too. Yeah, and they thought they actually figured out a lot, but yes Yes, but like I mean they're I mean we know like I'm not saying oh magic creation Whatever any of that BS, but definitely there are civilizations that we know almost nothing about other than that They may have existed like the Mycenae civilization cyclopeans. Yes We But big oh but big oh did and I really like this is they took that idea that we don't know where we came from and they made It a present issue instead of the point before which we don't know anything is millions and millions of years ago that point is within the lifespan of people who are alive in this world and It forces the whole show is just showing characters dealing with the fact that they can never know where they came from and As Roger concludes realizing that it doesn't matter because you can choose to be whoever you are or whatever you are and The world around you is the world around you and you can take it as you will Mm-hmm at least that's what I got out of it And I really like that because it's an it's an idea. I actually hadn't considered before until I saw a big oh No, I probably would have gotten more out of it. It's just that I've been turned off by seeing the same it's something you know It's like seen it before if it wasn't something I'd seen before Yeah, not specifically big oh, but you know the same kind of thing You know it would have been like ooh, they did something really cool there But I've seen the same kind of thing like 20 times So I've seen similar things and that they they have this kind of philosophical agenda and they use a robot to show it to you or it's a very you know Intellectual show like this But I've never seen a show that addressed the specific philosophical idea that big oh addressed before All right, I guess that's just the idea of Take the the fact that we don't know where we came from and make it urgent make it recent make it something that you can't just ignore Yeah, and then take characters and see how they react to it I guess I'm not really you know the it doesn't really matter which specific idea. It could have been any Philosophical idea. I'm just generally turned off by you know philosophical ideas I definitely see where you're coming from and if big oh hadn't been the specific idea that it was if it had been The same idea Ava head or the same idea Escaflowne had or if it event any sort of rehash of an idea that's been an anime over and over I probably would have hated big oh too It's just that it happened to be about an issue that I hadn't really considered philosophically before that really made me like to show Hmm now if you were mad about the original ending to Evangelion Don't watch big oh too. You're going to hate the end It's the same thing except no one's gonna make a movie to explain what happened Mm-hmm. They don't show you what happens physically because it doesn't matter just like the end of Eva the robots fighting didn't matter All that mattered is what went on in Shinji's head Yeah, see I used to be like all into this stuff like I'd watch Eva and I'd be like oh It was the best thing ever or like a Kira where you know You don't really know what happens at the end It's kind of you know this vague metaphorical thing and I'd be like oh I get it or I don't get it But and I would always be like who it was awesome anyway, or you know something like that And it would be the greatest thing in the world and shows that were just kind of like you know Normal where you see what physically happens and that's that we're kind of like oh these aren't as smart as these other shows They don't do anything for me, but now it's like I've seen I must have seen a hundred shows just like this where Instead of instead of having an ending and then a moral or an ending with a moral They have a moral in place of an ending, you know like they make the ending all for fun you know and If you go and look at the IMDb top movies list I don't know if it's still number one, but for the longest freaking time number one was the godfather and I would be like all right. That was a really good movie But why is it you know number one and why is it still there at number one? It doesn't really you know is it really that much better than every other movie and Then I started that thing I don't I've never finished it I should go back to it where I was watching every single movie in the top 250 of IMDb and I saw a lot of Freakin movies that were either like way out there in artsy and some that were just way normal And I realized the reason the godfather is number one is because it's both at the same time It's not all you can watch it and it would just be a perfectly normal see everything that happens You know mundane Unmeaningful plot movie, but at this other at the exact same time It's the most meaningful movie with all kinds of symbolism and things all over the place But it doesn't make one instead of the other you the end of the godfather It doesn't just turn into like metaphorical stuff. You still see what's happening. You look at it And it's at the end. There's he's in the church, you know saying I do you know get rid of the devil I won't do bad things whatever they do in church I don't remember exactly and they keep they they keep going back and forth between him and the church You know for that and the hitman that he told to kill people killing people and It's an action scene, but at the same time It's as metaphorical and meaningful as you can get yep as opposed to say Evangelion where the original ending was literally they don't show you anything that happens And it's just chingy in his head contemplating the meaning of existence So I guess you know if you still Haven't seen enough crazy metaphorical endings to You know turn you off to that sort of thing then you'll probably still like big O2 Yeah Now see I can I never tire of a show that does that because that's all I'm there for at least for shows like this The only thing that tires me really as opposed to you or shows that try to do this But either do it about a philosophical con a physical philosophical construct. That's boring useless or Already done to death or a show that just does it poorly Doing it poor doing anything poorly whether it's you know metaphorical or not is just poor to begin with I mean I guess big O2 to me did this really well and you might you don't realize what it's doing right away, but it I Was extremely pleased with the ending and I'm extremely pleased with the ideas I've been churning about since I saw it. I mean don't get me wrong I you know I did like the show a whole lot and it did do what it did a lot better than other people have done You know, I say you're coming from it's just a lot of shows do this and but it's like Times, you know, okay, you taught me something new I learned a new philosophy who You know, it's not like you enlighten me to some great Amazingness well see this comes down to the argument Scott and I always have because I'm very philosophical and he's very pragmatic and Whenever we argue we always tend to go in the exact opposite directions to the point that we're a hundred percent diametrically opposed on every issue Because philosophy is just bullshit see to me philosophy is the only thing that matters But it's just talking and words It's not it's not a physical thing. It's not real. What does it matter? See I stay up at night wondering about the mysteries of the universe Yeah, and and I just tell you not to yeah exactly. That's why I really like big O because well It didn't say not to it said to not worry, but to still seek the truth Of course, it got complicated because what's his name? Didn't you notice that anyone who was seeking out memories got fucked? Yeah, well actually telling you not to seek out the truth But angel found the full truth and she was fine with it because that she realized what it was and it didn't destroy her Watch his name. What was that guy's name the guy in the bandages? Schwartz walled Schwartz walled found the truth and couldn't handle it and died Yeah rosewater found the truth and freaked out and that was the end of him Angel found the truth and almost freaked out but then dealt with it Well, didn't Gordon rosewater make the truth and made himself forget or something see there There's a super spoilers from this point on like if you haven't seen the show to stop listening right now seriously, but Rosewater it like I get the feeling that They the one of the points they made is that at least in this show because at the end of big O Like you like all of you saw it it pans back and you discovered that the whole world was just a stage like literally stage lights in the sky and machinery outside manning the stage and it seems to hint at the idea that an Omniscient being like God couldn't exist because he would there's nothing to live for being omnipotent and he would create a world In which people could exist and the deny himself memory of doing so thus allowing people to exist with free will mm-hmm, and that's at least one way to interpret it and It seems to me that rosewater is a God who's forgotten that he's God willingly and that his son Oh his son was just dumb. I don't know what yeah I don't know what was up with that like he started out in big O1 is like the mysterious big evil guy And then towards the end of big O1 you actually saw him a couple times and he talked and he was there And it was just like hey, how you doing? It wasn't like whoa, you're the big bad guy It was like hey, what's up? And then in big O2 He was just dumb dumb as a brick and out there doing all kinds of crazy stuff Yeah, unbefitting of a big evil character like the emperor someone, but I realized I like how they did that in the sense that in big O1 you don't see a lot of Gordon Rosewater and when you see him or Alex Rosewater Alex yeah, Gordon's the father but when he's there he like you see him for a second and he says something and He seems very intelligent superficially and even in big O2 superficially He's very intelligent and very wise like he sits there eating fine meals with that Pretentious music playing in the background Constantly telling himself that he's doing the right thing constantly just spouting philosophy that he doesn't seem to understand himself and Big O2 as you get to know this character more and more you realize that he's full of shit and he doesn't know anything and He's just an idiot who happens to be in a place of power And I kind of like how they did that how there was no villain There was just one idiot one senile God and then a bunch of people trying to figure out what was going on well No, what's his name was the villain? Oh Alan Gabriel Alan Gabriel is was a villain. He was a bad guy See, I think the reason he was a villain because I know Alan you made a good point I didn't think of that Alan Gabriel is really the only villain in all of big O Yeah, no one else is a villain. They may do bad things, but they don't beck started out as a villain But he un-villain, but he wasn't I don't consider him a villain. He was just an antagonist No, I think he was actually a villain in the first like episode or two when he first did bad And then we broke out of jail on his own in that other episode He was still a villain But then after that second time he appeared and he was done for then he un-villain see now here's where I disagree with you because To me Beck wasn't a villain He was just playing his role just like Roger Smith was playing his role because notice that wall Beck did Tried to do horrible things. He always had this sense of style and this sense of morals and he never stepped over the line and Alan Gabriel is the only character in the show that has no morals whatsoever He has absolutely no compunction against doing anything and he forces Beck to step over the line and Beck can't deal with that and Even in the beginning when Beck does is evil. He's not a villain. He's not the villain of the show He's just an antagonist and a plot point No, if you've never when I first saw the show ever and like the first two episodes I was like, all right back that bastard go get him, you know, he was a bad. Oh, yeah Definitely back that bastard go get him, but I wouldn't use the word villain No, I would at least if you only watch the first two episodes of the big O1 Well, if you watch big O1 in that yeah, but if you watch all the big O1, you'd think Alex is the villain Yeah, it's if I watched one and two again He wouldn't be viewed as a villain because I've already seen the whole thing But for when I remember that when I watched it fresh, he seemed like a villain right away So I guess to me because having seen the whole show the only character I can justify calling a villain is Alan Gabriel because he everyone does what they do for a reason and Everyone who do whatever they do they believe that they're in the right or at least they know they're in the wrong And they've dealt with that Alan Gabriel doesn't care right or wrong anything. He has absolutely no direction he's just doing whatever the hell he wants for fun and Whatever the hell he wants tends to involve hurting people. Yeah, he's not even after the truth. He's not after anything I don't know. You know, it's just you never know what he's thinking is the thing He might be thinking that you know, he might have some crazy whack job plan where if he does this and this and this Then he'll somehow get something but he doesn't ever get anything so either his whack job plan isn't working or At some point he like his whack job plan fails and he gives up on it and goes crazy But you don't realize it because you didn't know his whack job plan to begin with You know, but I don't know I think I mean because Roger Smith was kind of obsessed with memory and that's what was keeping him down and preventing him from realizing What he was and once he realized what he was he didn't like get rid of the idea of memory He still cherishes the memories he has he cherishes the past looks forward to the future But he lives in the present as opposed to living in the past Alan Gabriel Lives in the present, but he ignores the past completely Mm-hmm. He acts at one moment is completely separate from any other moment in his life But notice how is Roger like gets better and better and understands what's going on more and more He it's like when he stops trying to worry about memories He gets more memories of how to do awesome things with the robot. Yes, the robot is definitely a metaphorical Device yeah, that's the good kind of thing is where you have you know the completely mundane action But you also have the meaning and it's together in the same thing because at first they did that perfectly Remember when Angel discovered the studio where she'd grown up Yeah, that was very much the metaphor and mundane plot going on at the same time Mm-hmm, and I think if they had more episodes and more money They could have constructed an ending for the whole show that was similar. You know what it is It's like they took the easy way out. Yeah, you know, it's like it's like you know when you read a book and you read in Between the lines, it's not you know, they don't actually write down what their meaning is You're just reading a perfectly normal story But there's a meaning there and you have to extract it by thinking about what you just read But it seems that a lot of these animes that try to or you know, especially animes But also TV shows and movies that try to be meaningful What they do is they might make you read between the lines the whole way But at the end they just take what is written in between the lines and put it in bold text at the end And that's what I kind of don't like I wish I could just read between the lines the whole time and that stupid people would you know maintain the thing where they Didn't see anything between the lines Well, look at the end of Tragun All right, I'm gonna spoil the end of Tragun So if anyone who is afraid of spoilers, but it's still listening. I'm spoiling Tragun now too But I think that did it very well because the the moral, you know, no killing whatever because he doesn't kill knives at the end is There and if you read these lines You can see all the conflict and the fact that he decided he's going to kill knives throughout the entire final fight And it's not until the very end when he decides not to but then he doesn't and they don't do a crazy metaphor Whatever they just show him carrying knives back to town and that's the end Yep, that's and if you pay if you watch the fight and you watch the expressions on his face I mean if you don't notice any of that you just see an awesome fight And then the show ends and if you've watched his face and you pay attention to what's going on You get all that other meaning as well But the show isn't ruined for the people who don't get the metaphor nor is it ruined for the people who don't care about the action mm-hmm and We've gone on really long about that. So I think that's a good stopping point. All right, sure and That was Geek Nights with rim and Scott special thanks to DJ pretzel for our opening theme be sure to visit our website at www.frontrowcrew.com If you like our podcast, you'll love our forums. Make sure you visit them You can send your email feedback to geek nights at gmail.com and if you want you can leave us a voicemail at 206 333 1537 Geek Nights airs every weeknight Monday through Thursday Geek Nights is accorded with absolutely no studio and no audience, but unlike those other talk shows. It's actually recorded at night