 Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill Live. We've got a new name, so you might notice now we're called Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill. Super excited about my guest today. We're going to dive into one of my favorite topics, mold, and especially our brain and mold, and how that has affected. So I'm excited to introduce our guest in just a moment. Also want to just mention, if you're out there and you have enjoyed my new book, Unexpected, it's been now out for about six months. We've reached the bestseller status. And I know a lot of you have commented and left me messages. Just really appreciate that. We'd love for you to go leave a review on Amazon or Good Reads or wherever you found this book. And please feel free to share with your friends and family, anyone you think might be impacted. Now, one other thing I want to mention, if you bought the book and didn't know that you'd get a ton of free stuff, go to renexpected. Just put in your email and you'll get immediate access to a mass cell lecture I did. My coloring journal, which goes right along with the book. I'll actually show you what that looks like here. Really, really cool. All that for free and an audio recording of a hidden chapter. Okay, so without further ado, I want to get on to our special guest today and introduce him. Dr. Martin Hart earned a doctorate degree in chiropractic from Cleveland University, Kansas City, and is trained and studied in a vast array of disciplines, including acupuncture, kinesiology, natural medicine, positive psychology, methylation, detoxification, and many other fields. Dr. Hart understands the healing journey is a partnership between doctor and patient. He takes a personal approach with each patient and uses the most advanced technologies to help release dysfunctional patterns and restore optimal function of the human body. So welcome, Dr. Hart. Thanks for joining me today. So glad to be here. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. And again, our favorite topic before we dive into mold and brains and kids and all the good stuff that we got to talk about. I would love to hear a little bit about your journey as far as how you got into chiropractic medicine and what that looked like for you. Yeah, so very similar, especially working with moldy kids and moldy brains is as a kid, I lived in a basement a lot of times at a house at the basement flooded every time it rained. And we didn't really know how big of an issue that was. But what we did know is I had a lot of issues growing up. So I was diagnosed with various learning disabilities, obsessive compulsive tendencies, sensory processing disorder. I was sick all the time. My mom would say like I was on antibiotics six, seven, eight times a year for strep throat. And so and that progressed into more and more obsessive compulsive tendencies, major anxiety, fatigue, that sort of stuff. So I was at the doctor a lot, but also was at the chiropractor a lot. I was getting some acupressure. I was getting adjusted. My mom would give me homeopathy right next to the antibiotics. And so I had a weird mix growing up. But what really helped me hone in on kind of making a difference was athletics, right? I loved playing athletics for me. And so it gave me something to focus on with my obsessive compulsiveness, my anxiety, it gave me a focus. It gave me a drive. My dad was big into like sports nutrition and working out. So that helped me. He helped me with that. And so I started taking supplements, which I noticed as a teenager and young, maybe like middle schooler, they're like, Hey, when I take these other things feel better. And so that got me on that track. And I decided to do chiropractic. And at first, being in chiropractic school, I didn't like it. Because I thought I wanted to do sports medicine. And I was like, these guys are talking about all sorts of crazy stuff. You know, you can help the human body by doing this stuff and whatever. And I was like, no, no, I'm out. And so I was trying to transfer to PT school. And my wife threw her back out. And this is while still in school. And usually, I could do a little bit of hands on adjustment work and she would feel better. And it didn't work that time. And so at that time, she was running an in home daycare. So I stayed home with the kids. While I was treating her on the table, we couldn't afford to take her to the ER. And so I was having a carrier around the house has having to help me with everything. Finally, I called one of the mentors who is teaching me kinesiology and some Chinese medicine, and a little bit of herbalism. I went to a class of his and I said, I'm going to give this 30 days and try it. And so I called them, I said, Hey, look, I know you just met me last weekend. Here's what's happened with my wife. What do I need to do? He said, you just need to work these two reflex points to clear the spine of some toxicity and balance it back out with some torque that's on it. I did that she could walk. She's like, this is what you're doing. She's like, this is you get we gotta get rid of the PT stuff. And so I dove in with two feet started learning more herbalism started learning more homeopathy functional medicine, those sort of things and haven't looked back since. Wow, I love how our journey, our childhood, our relationship shape, our practice in so many of my journey is similar because growing up on a farm, I grew up in Midwestern Illinois, and all those experiences shaped I had so bad allergies, so many antibiotics, like you said. And it's interesting, one thing I love about chiropractors and talking to you and others like you is I grew up with my primary doctor to basically a chiropractor. That was the main source. So I mean, we still visit doctor or whatever, but I had a great respect. And I always wanted to be a chiropractor. And funny, because he kind of steered me to medicine. He's like, no, you actually could be someone who could change the system. And there's, you know, thank goodness now it's things are more level playing field. Because back in the day, I think he had experienced a lot of the discrimination, right? You know how that goes. Yeah, so I just want to call out like I have the deepest respect because that's where I was headed. And I like, I feel like there's such a power. And I saw as a child growing up, that's, you know, who helped me get wealth when I was sick. So I love that. Yeah, I love that too. So how did you get into more the our topic today is moldy kids, moldy brains. And we see how mold really, really does affect the brain. Let's maybe frame this as far as what kind of people are you seeing, especially children coming in for their symptoms? And what leads you to think about mold as a cause? Yeah, so we do see a lot of pediatrics. We do we see families and adults as well. But we see a lot of pediatrics coming in. A lot of times they have maybe it's really basic like asthma or chronic I've got one patient right now she gets strep throat once a month in school. We tested the school the school was moldy it was it was mold, you know, suppressing your immune system. So it's it could be like chronic infections are biggie. But then it gets really worse where it's the chronic sinus infections chronic respiratory infection strep throat, maybe it's progressing into major histamine intolerance. So allergies all the times the redness rashes nosebleeds are a big one. And it could be even as it gets to the brain we might see those pans pandas cases right so we think about strep. And those are maybe Lyme or mycoplasma getting to the brain, creating obsessive compulsive tendencies, rage, hysteria, trouble sleeping, right food and challenges, sensory processing issues at that point, motor ticks. And so we think of strep and infections. That's true. But what's allowing those to get in there? What's allowing those to cross that blood brain barrier? What times mold was suppressing their immune system? And so I'm ramping up their inflammation, which allowed that to happen. So I see that a lot in our pediatric cases, they're throwing more tantrums and maybe their siblings or their peers, regardless of parenting style, you know, they're more irritable, they've got more food diversions, food intolerances, digestive issues. Those are pretty chronic ones I see. And for me, especially in pediatrics, chronic nosebleeds, hands down, I'm looking at mold probably 99% of the time. Yeah, so let me repeat that. It's so important chronic nosebleeds. We know medically there's this von Wille brand factor that can be affected by the mold, and it can literally cause you to not clot as well. So nosebleeds. I remember years ago, Dr. Shoemaker, who did some of the mold research in the beginning, would talk about, you know, the people would come in and they'd had just smelled the paper that was moldy. And they get a nose or like he'd get papers from a moldy patient or house like intake papers. And then so that's very, very real. So these parents are concerned about this. And the big thing I love that you mentioned is schools, sadly, so many public building schools, courthouses and things are really deeply affected by mold. And I think that it's way bigger than we think. What percentage of I mean, sometimes when you're in an area, you only know maybe certain school systems. But I know for me here, I see a lot of systems of where the kids are chronically ill in the same schools. How often do you think that's an actual root cause? Is these kids are in a school that's moldy? Yeah, I would say it's probably 80 to 90%, at least in the population I see. And sometimes I'll have them sometimes the school administration is good about testing it. And sometimes I have them sneak in a test and test it. And it's it's 85 to 90% of the time I have them test the school, it's coming back with toxic mold. That's usually using the Ermey test, or maybe sometimes an EMA test. And so it's we know it's it's a straightforward test on us. Yeah, the school's moldy. And at this point, you know, from my experience with patients at least my theory with like, oh, kids go to school and they start getting more viruses and back to no, those that's not because the kids are passing it around. In my experience, it's because those schools are moldy. And so they're immune systems suppressed. Yeah. So let's talk briefly about what would you tell a parent because maybe parents are listening like, Oh, my gosh, I think maybe my kids and they've been in this grade in this classroom, this school, there's been bigger behavioral or illness issues. What would you you mentioned Ermey and Emma real familiar with those for those who are listening, tell us a little bit about what you would tell a patient or the parent to actually do for testing. Yeah, so we can test, you know, you can test the environment. And so that's the Ermey which stands for environmental relative moldy index. It's an EPA design test. That's a dust test. You can go and dust in the area to see what's the environment like. And there's other testing you can do mycotoxins and things. But then on the patient, for sure, we would do a urine mycotoxin test. I want to see if that patient's holding urine toxins. And we might adjust that test depending on the detox pathways, maybe a glutathione challenge first or a sauna exercise first. But we want to see is that little guy or little gal holding toxins in their system. And a urine is a great way to do with kids. You can do a urine catch. You can even do some of these companies now do diaper catches. So I've had some of my toddlers do my urine mycotoxin test via diaper catch and see what's coming out. It's really sad to see some of these young students in your garden for a second grade be loaded with mycotoxins when you measure those. Yeah, I love that you mentioned that because that's really what you want to do. And I often do like the Emma or Ermey and then actually look at the patient and say, does this match? Now, it's okay. It doesn't match because there's very frequently an order of operations. I'd love to know if you've seen this, but like, for example, say you're in a moldy home, you get out and you start excreting and detoxifying. I find that patients tend to excrete the aflatoxins and ochre toxins and the things from penicillin, aspergillus first and then here it might be six months later till they excrete the trichocytanes, the really nasty toxins. Do you see that as well? Yeah, it's pretty similar. I say the aspergillus type mycotoxins are coming out early later once might be like those black mold trichocytocines or even some of the trichonines, those are going to come out later. And so it's not uncommon to see them shift a bit and it's not alarming when that happens because it's usually like you're saying it's that body going, okay, I can do this first in this second. And even family members in the same environment, you know, one kids in school and the other kids are at home and they can definitely have a variety of excretion and it doesn't sway me from the fact that they all have some exposure. So I love that we're talking about this because I think it can be confusing. I've had a lot of patients say, well, this doesn't match exactly. And sometimes it does match exactly. And then you're like, okay, they're bingo, right? But it doesn't always because there's so many bit varieties. And then when you're doing urinary mycotoxins, you're really measuring excretion, which is what we want. So it's not always bad. Do you find that if you do retest them in four to six months, or do you just watch them? Because sometimes you can see them, those levels go up. And that can also be confusing for patients. Yeah, usually at this point, I've weighed a little longer like that six months or just because for some of those that takes 90 days to have a full excretion effect anyways, but I don't want to freak them out when they for a little while, you know, if you're not detoxing and you're in the environment, you might be excreting some. And then we start detoxifying, you pull you out of the environment like we're saying, you start dumping more and they're going to be really alarmed, no matter what I'm telling them that their levels are going up. And so but if we wait that full six months, you'll get the better effect without alarming everyone. And so you don't have to go through that scary cycle. But exactly. Yeah, we'll retest in six months and we'll do some other tests in between like I'll do pretty frequently the VCS test, the visual contrast screen, which is an online visual test that helps us monitor neurotoxins. And we can see that one go down really nicely is as mycotoxin and neurotoxin loads go down. Thank you for explaining that because I think that's so key for patients to understand. And I do the exact same thing. So I really, really appreciate that you explained. So say we have a kiddo, you know, 730th grade or, you know, third or fourth grade, you name it an age. And you found out they likely have mycotoxins. You might find they have frequent streps. Let's just talk through a case like how would you approach that because you've got all these tools, you've got the chiropractic, you've got the herbs, you got the what's your approach to a kiddo like that that's having symptoms, maybe aggression, rage, and we have known mold and maybe even known infections. Yeah, so initially what I'm doing is kind of what we call triage, right? So we're going to do two steps at the same time, which step one is try to modulate the environment. Can I get them out of the environment? Can I improve the environment at all? And then kind of step to but almost having the same time is can I lower inflammation while starting to bind up some of the toxins? So what can I do? Because those, those behavioral changes really most of the time are a sign of neuro inflammation, right? So those outbreaks, those rages, their brains being overloaded, it's getting excitotoxic and neurotoxic at that moment. So it's creating inflammation. So if we can lower that inflammation a bit, calm that fire down while taking away the gasoline, the mold exposure, we can make a big change early. And so we're saying, okay, what things can we do to modulate inflammation? Does it look like a low histamine diet? Does it look like natural or pharmaceutical antihistamines? Does it look like, you know, high dose fish oil or maybe something like a quercetin or resveratrol to stabilize that? And then at the same time, can we bind up some of those microtoxins with a gentle binder that keeps them, keeps them balanced out. And that way that we start there and then we start to cycle down maybe detox deeper detox cycles hormone imbalance if they have them. Yeah, let's start binders and kiddos, because I felt like that's a little I'd love to know what your preference is. You don't have to name specific brands you can if you want, but what are some of the kind of substances that you prefer when you're treating kids, let's say under the age of eight? Yeah, so younger pediatric patients like that, human can fall the gas in a powder form. Seems to go really well. It's very mild tasting. You can take it with food, right? It's a good broad spectrum. Microtoxin binder, good source of minerals. A lot of times you can mix in a little bit of juice and they don't seem to notice, especially a good trick with some of these things that are tasteless, but have a really black deep color is put it in a bottle that you can't see through. And then they hardly look at it or make it a joke, right? Like my mom really saved me, I think as a kid because I had so much food aversion that she had me convinced that this greens powder I took was Ninja Turtle Slime. She had me convinced it was Ninja Turtle Slime. I would have my friends taking it, you know, they come over, you got to get some of this slime. And so make it a game with the kiddos. But humic and folvic acids in a powder form is so gentle, you can go lower high because it's empowered and then you can't hardly taste it. Hey, everybody, I just stop by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected Finding Resilience Through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming life-threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein Barr and mold and biotoxin related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by readunexpected.com. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. I can hardly taste it. I love that. I couldn't agree more because that folic acid just dries the minerals into the cells. So you're kind of getting this nourishing effect. And they rarely cause constipation. I don't know if you've seen that, but it usually doesn't affect the bowels, which can be an issue. So you have this kid. Oh, you're treating inflammation. Is there any particular herbs or things that you go for with brain inflammation? Like where would you start with with again, a kiddo that has brain inflammation in the inflammatory pathways? Yeah, so depending on their challenges, I really love course it in. And I use a lot of skull cap. So skull cap is going to be an herbalism. We call it a nerve vine. So it's going to be neuro calming, right? Supporting the nervous system, calming nervous acts on the GABA receptors so it can calm pain, it can calm inflammation. And it can calm the nerves down. But also it's highly anti inflammatory really shuts down that cytokine cascade that's happening that's overactive in that moment for them. And then as a fun fun side effect, it's very mildly antimicrobial. So it hits a little bacteria, it's a little viruses. But that that combination of anti inflammatory neuro calming. I love skull cap hands down as probably my favorite. Gosh, I agree with you. It's two of my favorites. And then of course, and of course, it's anti mast cell antihistamine like you mentioned, so important. So what about a school environment? You know, that to me is always tricky, because most of time we can't take them out of school. Is there any tricks or things that you've done where you really know the classrooms and issue or their gym or their, you know, some exposure that may be really difficult for the patients and family to avoid? What do you do in that situation? Yeah, so two sides of it one side is like what can we do proactive? And so I'll say, you know, I'm like, let's let's talk to the school as a what can we do about this together setup? Not not accusatory because I don't get them on the wrong side, but especially go to the teacher first day and say, Hey, we've got this issue. We know it's here. What would you feel about me buying air filter to put in the classroom? You know, would you without pay for it? You know, would that be okay with you? And a lot of times they're going to say sure, right? Or maybe even would you mind if I left this antifungal solution that you can missed around the room? Occasionally, you know, would you would that be okay with you? I've even some parents who come in and they the teachers will let them fog the classroom once a month. And so they'll do that they'll go in and fog. So that's kind of like a proactive steps you can take. And then on the flip side is what I'll have them do is binders as soon as they before they get to school, have them do binders in the lunch at the school nurse, give them binders at lunch time and then binders as soon as they get back home. So we're kind of surrounding Chinese medicine, we call it surrounding the dragon, but we're kind of surrounding the issue of those binders. So they're catching whatever is coming in. And then the same thing nasal spray, we're going to do a custom blended nasal spray with probably some silver, or maybe a little bit of some homeopathic extracts, and then maybe some essential oils in there, so that they're getting it before and after. So you're clearing as much of that fungal and mold spores that got out of there as we can really trying to batten down the intake of those both spores and the mycotoxins. Okay, I love where you're growing with all these lines of thinking, because this is our cavity that we inhale goes right into the lungs into the bloodstream and also closest to the brain, right? Let's talk specifics again about kiddos because let's talk like under eight and then let's talk like over eight because kiddos can be a little hard to get a nasal spray or rinse or whatever. What are you doing with them with like a nasal treatment? And then maybe before we go there, tell about like, why is this such an important cavity for the brain and for your kids in treating that? Because I agree. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So the sinuses, you know, we think of smell, right? We think of nose and sinuses. So that olfactory nerve, that's one of your cranial nerve. So it's, it's a nerve that does smell for us. It goes right into the brain. And then it goes right next to our hippocampus, our limbic system. So it's going to gauge emotional regulation, threat response, fight or flight. What a lot of people don't know is that when you're smelling something, that means a part of that molecule, whatever you're smelling is actually touching part of that nerve. That's how that transmission works. So it sounds really terrible if you're heading into a bathroom and you smell what you're smelling. But that means a little bit of that is actually touching nerves and part of your brain. And so when that mold is getting into our sinuses, it's going right through, it can, it can get through a little bit of the plate that's up there until the olfactory nerve actually started directly affect the brain. And then when those areas get inflamed, that inflammation is hitting right next to that limbic system. And so it's going right to that fight or flight response, right? To that rage and emotional center that happens there. So that's a biggie. And then this area gets colonized. A lot of times you can colonize with both molds and fungus, or even one called marcons. It's a antibiotic resistant staph bacteria that happens in there with a lot of mold cases and chronic inflammatory cases. And so that constantly not only drips down in the system, creates inflammation, but it's directly impacting that brain factor right away from neuroinflammation. And not to mention we talked a little about the nosebleeds. We talked about it can be, but some of these nosebleeds are scary. They're outright hemorrhages, where I've had some cases of my pediatric patients when they weren't quite grasping how important it was to stay away from the exposure. And then they had, we had to send them to ER because they're asking such bad blood loss. And so it can be major. And so that can be another factor there. But some of my pediatric cases who can't do the nasal sprays, sometimes, you know, once if I can get them kind of relaxed and used to in the office, then mom and dad can do it back home. But if they can't, we'll nebulize. Perfect. We'll nebulize at that point. They can just wear the mask. They can do maybe a little bit of silver, sometimes hydrogen peroxide or iodine, because it's an antifungal capacitor, maybe a little bit of essential oils. But silver for sure is pretty gentle and easy. They tolerate that really well. Oh, that's a wonderful idea. I love it. So practical. And so obviously the older ones, are you compounding? Are you creating these in your practice? Are you purchasing them from a third party? Because I love the combination you mentioned herbal silver and some of those things. What's the best way can patients get this on their own? Yeah, so we do custom compound them like we'll do if we're in the office, we'll do some various frequency and muscle testing and custom compound. But really, you know, you can do some basics. So we always use a nanoparticle silver like 90% of the time as our base is a nanoparticle silver. Pretty often it's like an antifungal component. You can get a high, high purity organic like Rosemary essential oil is very antifungal eucalyptus globulus goes great as a mucolytic. So it breaks down that mucous opens up the sinuses. It's mildly anti everything. So anti viral antifungal antibacterial. Those those two right there, I find are very gentle with that silver and the nanoparticle silver, you know, everybody's afraid they'll turn you blue. It won't turn you blue when it's nanoparticle. We can process it out really well. And so I find those three, you can blend those up pretty easily yourself. And it's very gentle and easy to do just a few drops of silver. I mean a few drops of oils per like two ounces of silvers goes a long way. And I'll you know, I'll get a little farther where I'll do some anti inflammatory oils. I'll do some very strong antimicrobials. But I tend to what I would say if you're trying to stick to really gentle and I want to try this on my own Rosemary and eucalyptus to go really well. Oh, this is wonderful, wonderful information and interesting on the silver. I agree. It's really if people are taking large, large oral oral doses that have that issue. So I'm never seen the nasal and I use that all the time too. In fact, we at ICI, the group that does a lot of the mold, you know, doctors and stuff, have really moved from any of the bacterial sprays like bag to almost exclusively hi to silver with EDTA or combinations. Now, interesting, you mentioned Rosemary because I've always known the breast cancer survivor Rosemary so powerful anti cancer effects. And I just put an article about a week or so ago that's gotten a ton of traction on the connection between Candida and cancer because they found in the cancer cells these yeast issues. I don't think that everyone who has cancer has Candida, but I think there are some cases and Rosemary being anti-fungal, anti-mold that just thought as you were talking made me wonder, you know, because of its anti-mold and its anti-cancer could there be a connection with it being anti-fungal in nature and the anti-cancer effects? Who knows? I'm just postulating in the moment. Oh, yeah, very interesting. It's interesting to think about even on that front of like, you know, metabolically the way the cancer cell works in a way a Candida cell works is very similar. That sugar hungry, starch hungry, set up. Yeah, it would make a lot of sense. I like that thinking. Just off the cuff here. But I love it. So let's talk about the. So we got you got the kiddos and we talked about that. Obviously the parents are involved in treatment wise for say, again, maybe seven or eight year old. Would you be going for four to six months? What's your typical time frame? Yeah, that's pretty standard at that front. And they, you know, kids respond so well. A lot of times within, you know, a couple of days to the first couple of weeks, they're seeing huge benefit, especially if we can make outside like lifestyle changes to like mold avoidance or like reducing some of the mold, or at least the parents are willing to implement the pre, during and post school protocols. You make really good. So four to six months is pretty good. If there's not any crazy exerting similar circumstances, they do really well in that time frame. And then when you think about, you know, if someone is doing really well and often they regressed, you usually assume it's a new exposure. Is that the typical place that you go because? Yeah, especially any of my kids, like my pants, pandas kids, or like maybe my more like neuro divergent kiddos, the two big things I'm going, okay, where was the mold exposure or what's the new stressor that's been introduced in their life? Oh, good for you. I love saying that because it is, you know, you have a stability and then so often they regress at some point. And let's go on to the infection and more the pan pandas. First of all, frame this. Now, if you guys have been listening here, you heard my review recently with Dr. Jill Christo. We talked about this, but I think it's so important. And again, from the feedback that we got, there's a lot of parents out there that are dealing with these. And it was funny, what's really sad to me is there's so many children now on psychiatric meds. Now certainly it may be appropriate. I don't have any problem with the right usage in a dire situation. But the problem is so often it's not root cause as you and I know. Let's talk about how do these infections and what really what is pan and pandas and how the infections play into this? And you already framed it as the mold can weaken immune system. But let's talk more about that infection link to the brain. Oh, yeah. So pan's pan is it's that pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric syndrome, right? So it's one is associated with strap and the other is associated with other infections. But it's essentially when that the infections get to the brain, create a neuro inflammation. A lot of these kids end up with obsessive compulsive tendencies, major anxiety, like neurodevelopmental regression. And so there's major oftentimes a histamine component. So a lot of food allergies, a lot of seasonality skin issues involved for them, motor ticks, etc. And so what happens in my experience is they maybe have these infections. A lot of these kids get their tonsils taken out because of strap hides there. They've got chronic viruses that show up. They've got a lot of times mycoplasma less often I see Lyme causing it, but it is a prevalent. I would say the two microbes I see the most often are strep and mycoplasma when I run these kids lab panels. But I have not personally seen a pan's pan this case, who didn't have mold at the root. And so when I run their mycotoxin test, when I take a really detailed history, it started with prolonged mold exposure, which in and of itself is going to create neuroinflammation, where really it's going to suppress that immune system. And now these bugs, which we have strep, we all have strep in our colon, right? We have small amounts of strep in our system. We all have probably lots of us have some exposure to mycoplasma, which is a very tiny bacteria that's associated with Lyme often, but it can be by itself. But suddenly we can't fight them back anymore because of that mold exposure. And we just explode with these infections, they hit the brain at that point. And boom, that's that neuroinflammatory cascade. That's when we find that the obsessive compulsive tendencies take over. And a lot of these parents want to tell you is he or she was OK. And then got sick. And then suddenly wasn't the same after. Right. And so that's when we really suspect pan's pandas. But it's in my experience, the infections are present and in dealing with the infections is vital. It's important. But really we have to look at what allowed the infections to get out of control in the first place. And I would say, you know, I'm not an absolutist. So I'll say 99 percent. But 99 percent of the cases I see their pan's pandas as mold at the root. I love that you've said that because I would agree and I see a lot more adults than kids. But I see kids as well. And so often I see the Lyme or I see the mycoplasma or I see these other things that are playing into it or even heavy metals. And what happens is not only does it massively weaken immune system, it trashes your detox system. So because of that, what I really, really like your train of thinking, because I think that a lot of docs are doing really heavy antimicrobials initially. And maybe that patient wouldn't have to have that if we could restore their immunity. And it sounds like that's exactly the direction you're going. And I have found in my practice to over and over and over again, I keep thinking, gosh, not everybody has mold, right. So often, shockingly, it's like you find it again. And I remember the very beginning after my experience, I was like, gosh, I want to be objective. So I'm not going to assume that just because I had this experience that every patient I see has this. But and over and over, I still would say, like you said, it's not 100%. But there's so frequently, and I know now that patterns was probably like you do assigned and they move, do they change locations or there was a lot of damage and things changed. And as I see that I'm once again, like, okay, here we go again, it's mold. Yeah, well, it's, you know, what's important to recognize too, is that it's not just that so many of the cases that we would see that maybe are complicated to have mold. It's the fact that mold illness is becoming more prevalent because of the way we design buildings. We set buildings up now that they're they're mold havens. We've got indoor plumbing. We've got air conditioning, right? We've got human environments. We've got dry wall, which is essentially mold food. And so we've created all these and we're the more energy efficient your house is, the more it's a better environment that creates a better environment for that mold to grow. And so we've actually created over time, moldier and moldier setups that allow for more of it. And then we've got poor education in the contractor world. And even the mold remediation world just to be frank, most mold remediators, the poor guys and gals don't know what they're doing when it comes to a patient who's got created chronic inflammatory response syndrome or mold illness or biotoxin illness because they weren't trained. The education isn't there for them. And so, you know, they might tell you the house is clean. We retested it's dirty. You know, you've got they might tell you they vacuumed up and shop backed up the water. That's not good enough. And so we're creating this bigger environment where more and more people are getting mold toxic because it is more prevalent because the way we build houses and manage buildings now. I all these ways that all these important facts that you're sharing are so important because people don't realize and I think COVID actually brought this to a head in some ways because all of a sudden there's moldy home but they're going to work every day for eight hours and people were more home and more present in these environments that maybe weren't so good for them. I just me in this area where I'm living there's a ton of construction and there's all these real fast like multifamily homes and condos and things going up. And I drive by every day and for a while in this summer for Colorado is the rainiest and most wet month of like May, June and July. And I would see down rain and no roughs and no constrain or just this beams and they say all the wood is treated. But my thought is like, oh my gosh, those things are all every one of them that I saw as I walk and drove by every day. I'm like, there is no way that that wood isn't getting saturated in those materials that should be indoors aren't getting seeded. And then again, it might not actually be growing mold now. But the first time they get water leakage or humidity or issues that would that's in the houses that just got totally soaked is going to be a nightist. And again, you and I see this all the time. But is I think the quickness of construction, the materials and then even like you said, even these like lead certified really, really efficient buildings, they're not letting air exchange. And I always said much rather being a 100 year old log cabin with some holes in the walls or this airflow, right then to be in a, you know, New York City lead certified building. And I've seen stories like you have, I'm sure of these buildings that are really, really beautiful multimillion dollar homes and they are full of mold. Oh, yes, it's so sad. We I just had a case it was like that her home was beautiful. And I think she's $250,000 into remediation right now. And I'm going, we maybe should have a conversation earlier in this process, how much to invest in it. But it's, it's sad because it's, it's exactly right. It's their mold traps. Yeah. Do you see again, we're doctors, we're not environmental mediators or politicians or anything. But as we're on this topic, I think it's so important. I don't have all the answers. But I'd love to know, do you see any way that we can whether it's patients listening up you who are care about this or have, you know, illness in their family or you or I that we can actually make any changes because I feel like it's overwhelming at times. And I don't really know the answer. Yeah, I think sometimes it's okay to say we don't know yet, but let's create more awareness publicly as best we can. I think is as we raise awareness, publicly in public forums and political forums and say like, hey, this is a big issue. And I think as practitioners for us is being willing, which is scary, right, because you're putting your livelihood on the line sometimes, but as being willing to say, no, let me write this letter to this institutional director, let me write this letter to this local congressman about web buildings. Let me let me talk to the school superintendent about what building syndrome about mold illness and chronic inflammatory response and how dangerous it is to the kids. Get the permission from the parents to show them this child's labs to show them how this is affected. And so they can start to decide at least for themselves because I think sometimes when you put a moral onus on them that says, yeah, you can ignore this because of the budget, but at the same time, too, I just need you to understand that what you're by ignoring this, you're creating this illness for this child. Here is it on paper. I just need you to understand that if you if you don't at least create some awareness for yourself and take some action in the right direction, that that's that's kind of on you. And so when I think you create that moral onus and you create that awareness, you're going to start to see at least grassroots changes in the right direction. Thanks for sharing, because I think that is so important. I'm like a very apolitical person. I don't get involved in politics, but with these kinds of issues, I felt more and more like I must because we have the medical knowledge to say this is actually really, really dangerous to our future generations. And, you know, even in political buildings and courthouses, it's an issue. So maybe you know, all of that. So I love that you share that because I think what we can do is write letters. I've had a lot of patients ask me to appear in court. There's been a few cases where I have to, you know, testify. That's not something I do on a routine basis. But when I have it's been very important just because I think those are the little wins that we can get that hopefully because right now the legal system is very much weighted against homeowners or renters or schoolchildren or any of these groups, right? Oh, yes. Yes, it is. It's a big it's a it's momentum, but we're heading the right direction, I think slowly. Good. What last bits of wisdom would you want to give to parents out there who are dealing with this? Because I think the one thing that you alluded to and is so important, but that we maybe didn't talk about outright is these kiddos can be so sick and so with its anger, aggression or it can be really, really hard on families and you know what's going on in the kid's brain. So there's nothing but compassion for those behavioral outbursts and the kinds of things that are really almost difficult to handle in a family. But I mean, it can get violent. I've seen parents who've had fractures and things from their children. Of course, how in the world? I just want to speak to those parents out there because I think this is one of those things that there's so much shame around it, right? You love your child. You want so much for the good for them. But when they have pain or pandas or brain information, they can really act out. The behavioral disturbance can be really difficult to deal with. And of course, we're helping the kiddos. But any thoughts to the parents that are dealing with this? Because it's hard. Yeah, I would say as best you can make sure you look out for yourself. Take whatever little moments of self care you can because you know if you've been through it that you have to muster all the energy, the mental, physical and spiritual energy you can to work with some of these kiddos when they're at their worst because it's difficult. Like you're saying they can get violent, they can get ragey. Don't take it personal because they will pull out all sorts of stuff that you don't know why they've or even heard these things they say sometimes from that you can't take it personal when they're lashing out at you on that front. And don't give up hope. Don't give up looking. And I think even for myself of like looking back and I maybe wasn't as extreme as some of my cases I have to get like that. But recognizing that the moment they're in now, even though it's hard and it's difficult and sometimes scary, it can become a strength for them later. Right. It's going to be an experience they can pull from. So don't give up hope. Keep looking for answers and ask for help. Most importantly, so sometimes I've had families who are in here and the parents, they know I'm a practitioner. So they're in here getting help kind of for like the functional medicine of their kiddo. But they're not asking for help of do you have resources for us for counseling? Do you have resources for us of how do I help them behaviorally? How do I approach this? Because sometimes if you don't ask for help, we as practitioners might get caught up in the doing, doing, doing of the setup. But I try to make sure we're offering like, hey, here's some support groups online or in person you can look at that are helpful. Reach out to these folks. So they're helpful to be around people who maybe aren't used to neurodivergent kids or kids dealing with these infections or these toxicities. So find other families you can connect with because the typical mom and dad at school, they may have no idea what you're going through. They don't know why your kids acting out. They may have no understanding of giving you grace. They may offer advice to you that's terrible for your situation. So find like-minded individuals. Reach out, ask for help, and don't give up. Oh, my goodness. That is worth its weight and gold is so important. Last bit here is say if mom or dad is listening and their kid, you know, they think they may have molds or they're dealing with that. What are what's like a one, two, three really practical tips where they might be able to start either if they don't have a practitioner to get some treatment or do some things that they could do at home that's safe or be the starting point with either themselves or a child in the treatment. Yeah, I would say what's typically pretty helpful is doing some natural antihistamines. Whether that's a little bit of course of tin or a little bit of vitamin C even goes as tends to be OK, you know, vitamin C could be a few oxalates. But tins, most kids tend to do well with that. A very gentle binder like the human convulvic acid goes really, really well on that. And then something to calm the nervous system. And if you want to go really gentle, we would just start with maybe some magnesium. So I'd say looking at something for inflammation, maybe like a little bit of course of tin, looking for something to help find up some of the mold. So maybe a human convulvic acid, something to calm the nervous system, maybe a little magnesium. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Dr. Hart, it has been such a pleasure getting to know you and hearing your take. And it's so aligned with what I'm doing. And it's nice to know sometimes even as a practitioner, you feel kind of alone. And what great work you're doing and what an important thing for these kiddos. Are you obviously still taking patients and tell us a little bit about where we can find you? Yeah, so we're just south of Nashville, Tennessee. We do take new patients. There's myself and another practitioner in the office with another clinician who does the exact same work I do. So we we do take new patients, pediatrics, families, adults on that front. Practice name is Keystone Total Health. Yeah, we're happy to take new patients virtually in person. Wonderful. And where's your website? Yeah, KeystoneTotalHealth.com. And then you can find us on Instagram and Facebook under the same. Awesome, we will link up wherever you are found on this episode. Thank you again for your time today. It was great chat with you, Dr. Joe. Thank you. You too.