 Welcome back. It is time for our very first hot topic and we'll be taking a look at fuel subsidy removal, which has taken center stage in the country as we speak. A honestness was said when President Tanubu Voila made his inaugural pronouncement about subsidy on May 29. That shut off the cost of pump price of fuel at fuel stations. Most filling stations shut down and those who were opened increased the prices from 185 Nira a litre to 500 Nira a litre, 510 Nira a litre, depending on the fuel station. And then NNPC, NNPCL, also increased the cost of fuel at the filling station and Nigerians are wondering why. Well NNLC attended a meeting with government representatives and key stakeholders in that sector and we have been joined this morning by Ameci Asuguni, former deputy president, NLC, an industrial relations expert. You're welcome Mr. Asuguni. Hello Mr. Asuguni, can you hear us? Can you hear us? I'm with you. All right. Well the NNPC have given what they describe what you describe as vexations fuel pricing template and you have asked them to withdraw that template immediately. So bring us up to speed with what happened at the meeting and the latest developments with this template. I think what we are having in Nigeria now is a misapplication of strategy. NNPC, from what we have, they are not against removal of waste subsidy but they are against removing subsidy and still maintain importation of PMS. It means Nigeria will suffer for the policy. It means that even the money they want to save we don't know where they will invest it. It means government is not ready, neither willing to activate the refineries in Nigeria. So the request of NNPC, even organized labor, has been consistent and it means that let refinery works then you remove subsidy. But the essence of subsidy was because this product were not locally refined, making the price higher and government took this responsibility of subsidizing price to defy effect on Nigerians. So when you say you want to remove subsidy, what comes to Nigerians, what comes to mind is you have actually solved the problem of refining here in Nigeria. Unfortunately no refinery is in action. So upon what basis would subsidy be removed? On the basis that Nigerians will suffer? On the basis that we have done what is required of us as government? Or depending on dangote private refineries? How come you deregulate and they say you still go back to regulate price? You say you have deregulated, you no longer have subsidy, in my case you determine their price, then how come you now have a template upon which by state and zone should say their product? When you deregulate, you don't have control in the market. So what we are saying is if you are involved then you must take responsibility. Let refineries, because there's no action plan so far roll out by federal government to tell us that yes we are removing subsidy because Kaduna, Wari, Potakor refineries have been faced and they are to give Nigerians a certain quantity of production and then side by side with the dangote refineries and then license other competitors who will make the price crash. You don't just remove subsidy and then make Nigerians assume that very soon it will crash. Refineries is not something you build in these moves. It's not like the communication facilitator where you put facilities and devices to generate network. This is a complete construction that may take years and this fund-based operation. So we are saying federal government seems not ready for the action they have taken. Very interesting there. Subsidy has been removed, whether we like it or not it has been removed. But I was wondering if you have the information as to who actually was talking for the federal government. We know who represented NLC. We know who represented TUC but we also know the person who was talking for the federal government said he is not appointed by the federal government. Perhaps he was just asked to do that job for the federal government. So if you have this information who were the people actually talking for the federal government in that meeting that NLC and TUC held with the federal government. For obvious reasons as well we don't want to talk about delegation of government. We know you can choose to work with consultants. You can choose to hire anybody to do your job. All we want is representation is more or less of less business to us. The substance before the meeting is what should command our attention. So you can see it's a new government less than one week and therefore everybody know they've not appointed their cabinet so they can hire personas within the country to do their job. How else is we address them as federal government. Okay after the meeting whatever came up in the meeting another person spoke who didn't speak at the meeting that is the group managing director of the NNPCL. The chief of NNPCL as it is, Melikeari, he said that the federal government has said or he said president Tinobu will build will finish building one refinery before December. Is that one of the things that NLC is asking for and do you think there are things on ground to make Nigerians believe that this will happen? Honestly the activity so far is not reflecting reality. I agree it's a comment made by federal government with regards to timeline for completing a refinery by December. That also shows what NNPC is advocating that the readiness is not sufficient because what a winner saying if you are said that by December you are moving subsidy because by there refineries will kick start. Nigerians will be getting ready to possibly work with the time but whereby you say because budget provision was not made for July onward and therefore subsidy is gone. It came as shock not just shock people are trying to analyze it the intention for me is good because nobody will advocate to retain subsidy with the on the on the ground that few of Nigerians will be will be more or less making money that they don't need. It's a scam. It's criminal not just a it's criminal but the question is for you to remove that which is criminal you must also put a legitimate template that will not suffer Nigerian. So we are not against the refinery working by December but we are asking what happened between now and then and can one refinery address the challenge of first subsidy remover. I think we should do more of engagement. NSE, TUC they are ready for engagement and I think they were already talking and I stated this meeting has been ongoing for more than almost two years now. Engagement with organized labor on solution to first subsidy remover has been ongoing even from our previous administration and this matter has been that if you can pushing the effect by making refineries work we don't want any other palliative measure because palliative measures that you are referring to will also enrich the few palliative measures that the criteria to to to even disband those funds you eventually go to the hand of few what we want is what should be physical to serve the entire country and that is refinery and I think the request of NSE is very very reasonable and if government will show cause on how they will achieve this refinery to function I believe NSE and TUC will eventually agree with government plan. Well clearly just like most Nigerians the NLC the TUC do not have a clear picture of the implementation of the subsidy removal and palliatives by this government and the status of the 800 million dollars borrowed by the Buharis administration for palliatives you have said that the only palliative you want is to see the refineries working well that will not happen today tomorrow between now and when that refineries should work what should Nigerians be hoping what will the NLC be pushing for to happen between now and then because this palliative has been removed and Nigerians I mean the subsidy has been removed and Nigerians are bearing the brunt right now as we speak. This is not the first time federal government take action and reverse this action. The subsidy removal has been attempted by several administration it's not the first time so when people say it's gone it's gone I don't think so if nothing tangible is done the action may go beyond organized labor don't forget Nigerians are well educated to the extent that they know their right and when this is eating off the entire income of Nigerian they may not even wait for NLC anymore so the federal government should see this matter beyond labor. Labor is not the only one in the market. NLC TUC members are not the one suffering in fact these people I'm referring to organized labor members are working so to a reasonable extent they can even afford to buy some of this product but we talk about the downtrodden the Nigerians themselves that would not even they are not even enjoying anything as you may call basic needs that government is making provision for amenities like water every household in Nigeria pay for their water pay for their life pay for everything including contributing money to control their road so anything you have you are any policy that will bring us ship to eat off their income becomes a threat that angers many to be on the street so it's not about NLC now NLC is trying to protect its own members from more or less spending on the audio salaries on transport either you drive your car and buy it where or you go by public transport and there is taking three to five hundred percent of what you used to spend so what we have now is federal government to realize first that that is a challenge even though president has made made a declaration or rather a statement how do we resolve that very challenge on Nigerians it's not something that will be done with one statement they need to go back if if he requires him to extend the subsidy why he put up plans to achieve because don't forget as to speak now police stations are selling over 500 people when you command them to say as at yesterday the queue has reduced because people are not people are scared to even enter because they don't have the money so it's no longer scarcity is scarcity of fund to afford that product and which is very dangerous very very dangerous so for me it's a very sensitive issue that acquire a second thought by federal government what if the federal government says they have removed fuel subsidy but they are giving palliatives which a lot of people are also calling some kind of subsidy you're spending money because you have removed money from the system and all that so what if that alternative of giving palliative is brought but if the fuel subsidy is now returned will NLC be comfortable with that no what we need to manage here like you see some of us will speak from the consultancy view more or less giving advice to both parties but what you should know is that when you are creating a palliative if palliative is not proposed for you are still wasting money in addition to the subsidy eventually the carry out so when you say you want to carry out subsidy how do you are nice are you going to say you are making subsidy for 200 million Nigerians how do you achieve it we have tried it in the past I was a member of the technical committee that were put in place in 2017 to work out palliative measure but the question is that committee could not even have a solution for one year so when you say you want to if you even though you bring that one trillion now as palliative who will manage it you are going to end up you end up empowering few people palliative that is workable in Nigeria is palliative that is put in a product that people will eventually buy with their money not everybody need it and the quantity the other person may need it and therefore palliative is put on PMS leaving it for people to consume as demand turns on them so I believe government in systems of of removing subsidy without adequate plan to actually respond to Nigeria that yes this democracy and you are the reason we are here if they don't do that it will be a bad beginning and I don't think that people who advise Mr. President to go in that order I believe he's going to listen to a spot view that yes you have made statement but it seems something was not done face which is the plan the plan on subsidy should be removed with a gradual plan as a matter of fact I like his courage it came to prove to Nigeria that we can start by removing yes but the out of town Nigeria that yes we can no longer fund few people we can no longer continue corruption we can no longer allow subsidy in the hand of people let us divert this money into refinery working but when people know that you are having plan to making refineries work when people see a template that suggests that in the next six months the finalists will be in 50% capacity that we're just a challenge I tell you Nigerians will cooperate because even the subsidy is not benefiting us the way it should we're wasting more money alongside the trillions of dollars you hear every day the billions of dollars you hear on this subsidy management is actually going to the hand of Nigerians and they are scared to prove them because they don't want to interrupt the subsidy importation and all the rest I think the move of subsidy is key but that should not also bring endless suffering if it's going to be temporary we will join federal government to advocate to Nigerians to bear it is temporary look at what happened in the monetary policy policy of CBN the thought and the focus did not work was you know reverse now that they said it will take effect in December I am not sure it will not because of the now no sensitization has gone to the rural area to address that so if you come to December you will receive more resistance than not because Nigeria believe it has come to stay so that we have been suffering from this subsidy once you make a plan to replace existing plan people will see it coming and they will wait for it let it be a temporary measure but leaving it and see a lot than go to determine price from July is that it's like removing it from the hand of honor and something important and putting it in the end of that dangling it is not a year no day leaving the mountain to pitch on the floor for us as the community we are not comfortable with the shop remover without adequate plan to actually some do the something all right that meeting that you had with the government that NLC had with the government representatives and key stake holders ended in a deadlock it's been postponed do we know when the next meeting hold they ended a meeting without a choosing a time frame for the next meeting and I think that but I think the meeting is ongoing from the report we got last night it's ongoing they can recover even today nobody knows you know meetings with the government they already know and because NLC TUC have no deadline in terms of strike plan and the people should also know and I like the fact that NLC created yesterday that they are no planting back on strike because anybody who tells you that slack action is the immediate solution is also telling the lie that means you are not a strategic leader strategic leaders will never engage in in a protest when the action is said has not even affected Nigeria what the for people to even know that this challenge is not about NLC and I see should even give up to two moves for Nigeria to feel the pain and know whether it's NLC challenge or general problem so for me federal government would do everything possible to see a soft landing solution with Congress NLC TUC seems to have a legitimate platform to carry out their resistive measure anytime they want to refuse anti people policy but the question is if you don't engage them right if you don't treat them with respect they will also feel intimidated they will feel as if government is is imposing policy and they're more or less that nothing can happen under democracy the people have the right to accept your policy the people have the right to express their feeling over any policy that has to do with the people and I think the earlier they engage them for that better and the more advice will go to federal government I'm very sure the next meeting they shouldn't be coming to talk to NLC to see reason to remove our subsidy rather they should be telling NLC what they have in place that will eventually pushing the effect of the remover I am very sure engagement is the solution but engagement with substance eventually will play the best deal yeah in addition to what you're asking for the NLC the field station what I mean the refiner is working is the NLC also asking about the subsidy that was paid for June because when the outgoing government consulates postponed the removal of subsidy we were told that the subsidy will end in June and so here we are still in the month of June the prices have gone up as if the products for June we are not subsidized and so one begins to wonder what happens to that money is that part of what the NLC is also seeking clarification for what happens to the money is Nigeria not being should change and Nigeria is not being should changed not maybe because the way we see it it will not be the way the market has we see it NLC may have that ask that question but some of us that I study economics will also tell you that a businessman mind does not think in that order you subsidize for me we believe that I will go to the next market with the same plan of my purchase power now that you have removed subsidy you have told me that the product I used to get s amount I will be getting it s y amount if I don't increase price now how do I get that money to buy product again that is the marketer's view marketer's are not seeing it that the product in their hand has been subsidized they're saying when I finish selling the subsidized product how do I get the new market and therefore they want to increase price to be able to buy the next product otherwise they will also be out of market so everybody is selfish in trying to keep their business all we are asking is we should be focused on our energy should be focused on its demand by the time you digress to begin to worry about this this subsidy we're in June and it will end in June so it's material very insignificant to bother about what is happening in the market for for this month because the reaction we see it's not my view where is the speculation that determine that in fact that influence market forces that is what is happening they say there is there is already informed knowledge to the marketer that the price of their product will increase the purchasing power has gone up and therefore if I don't sell it now I will not buy again so that's what they're doing to be able to raise money that will push them to get more product so I don't think and level should spend more energy in asking questions that they know the answer may not even be implemented yeah but just to follow up when the airlines put a price to what anybody can pay for internal flights or any other thing the NLC spoke up even though they didn't go on strike or anything but they spoke up and said that in a free economy and that kind of a thing should not be done fixed price for everybody so that you cannot have alternatives everybody has to take that price if you want to travel within the country now that same thing was done by NNPCL the fixed price in a free economy like this and NLC yes spoke about it a little bit but what is the level of engagement with this NNPCL over this issue of price fixing and all that or are you lumping or is the NLC to you see lumping the federal government and an NNPCL together or are you engaging them separately the federal government is one as far as the labor is concerned but I know very well that the idea of fixing price is also an illegal act because how do you fix price for somebody that you are not in control of his market how do you just come and tear or break his address should not be sued beyond 700 how can you control that you must fix price where you have control in the business and where you are not a participant in a business you cannot also say you want to control price and that is why we say if you say you have you want to move some city you put a workable platform that will survive Nigeria then leave the market to drive if there is no price competition the price will not crash we are in different sector of the economy and what the airline did was because it's a handful operators where you just have about a 10 line or how many of them so they can easily call the CEOs can easily meet and say well let's do this so your customer and me your customer and my customer and my customer that was a private strategy against Nigerians and because they know they will not be a collective decision by by passengers to also say if you don't reduce price will not enter if passengers have had that collective resolve they would have also met the fact they would have they would have betrayed each other but they did that in the immigration sector because they were very few you can do that in any other sector that you have around the Tennessee state but this one you have few a port you have many a port with few airlines so these airlines owners can easily call them safe on phone and do a zoom meeting to fix price against Nigerian and that is why Leipo and other Nigerians even National Assembly was against it you cannot not fix a price for what reason it is not how a piece would get their product that I would do get their own so prices in that sector can never be equal we can compare that with subsidy because they are going to be importing at their own expense now so if I import from certain country my charges may be different from the one that is coming from another country we can be the same some may buy from dangote and if the queue in buy from dangote will take longer somebody importing from outside may get quicker product so that is to say the price will vary but if we have it more in Nigeria then people in northern zone should be buying product from the northern zone to avoid coming to south to buy and then the cost of taking it to the north will freeze the price high again and that will begin another matter that the high cost is because of the the transport needs to be to the needed place I think a lot is needed in the face of the challenge you have to address this matter Nigerians will be satisfied all right I don't know do you to what extent do you have information regarding the state of the refineries that we're talking about the protocol Kaduna worry does labor have any kind of has labor made any kind of inspection to know the actual state of these refineries and if work is ongoing there to fix them yes if we may not have done physical assessment but the sector in the paint and paint gas from information through some of these our unions in those sectors you will know that about one year ago they were making an effort to see how because the idea was to put them in place to enable their most that was the administration plan unfortunately they saw it not workable maybe the refineries were not ready you know when you abandon a facility for a long time and then coming to do overhauling in a hurry eventually you meet other challenges that you did not bargain for so in doing so I think it's costing them more in terms of time in terms of resources in terms of technology to get it back without also shutting it down again so you don't just say that a refineries have started and then after two weeks they're going on break to fix some other things again I think they were trying to escape from that accusation but what they told us if we were to go by federal government plan the refineries we have started would have started by now so when they even say December Nigerians may not trust but this is not the first time they projected time for the finalists to kick off so when you give time and you don't keep to it when you give time again doubt will come in so now Nigerians I don't think labor have a template to show that those refineries will start operation in any time soon as the dilapidated state of the refineries as you have alluded to and the lack of trust and transparency in in the servicing of it corruption and all that we know plays out in that sector has also led to some people suggesting the outright sale of these refineries and private individuals coming in to sort this out as probably the only way we ever see light at the end of this tunnel do you do you share that view you know why we don't share view of somebody running away from his duty if you run away from your duty you will lack capacity to even monitor that same function and therefore when somebody is serious is responsible to play a role in a business the question is what was the reason for government participation in sector it was so regular price that is why we tell government you must come into mass transport so that when people want to take advantage of where I to not double double transportation I'm giving an example government alternative become the solution to Nigeria and when those private own vehicle owners that want to exploit Nigeria see that government is constant with his pride they will reduce so if government is absent in all our businesses just because they don't know how to manage it then it shows incompetent and is grossly unaccepted so when we say we want to sell it you go to the reason the reason is lack of ski to manage not the government participation should pay Nigeria better than any but because we always give the right job to the wrong person therefore we cannot get good result and that is why we you see us paying salaries all of this time that we finally have no work what happened to the staff then we water the workers in this refinery dream for the past 20 years that tells you the corrupt country we have a country whereby you have certain number of workers that should be working in a refinery that will fit Nigeria refinery is 40 the workers are still there doing nothing and then we have a national productivity center that has no interest in setting the productivity template for a nation so we're a country believe in we're spending too much well we don't base our expectation through productivity and that is why our revenue don't grow why do we have different in illegal everything works and they are trying to get it better why can't Nigeria also faces on center to be electronic in some of this management and they cut off corruption they are very selective in deploying ICT to manage some of this is that we generate revenue so what you see there in this sector is a deliberate plan to allow certain people make gain because people have asked this question repeatedly that in you say you don't want to participate in this give me to look at what happened in the private power today government the last time we met that was last year I don't want to quote the figure because I may not be totally accurate but the nation several billions if not up to a trillion maybe 1.3 trillion I subject to verification that before I spent four years or so in addition to having said you have let go a particular center yet we're making budget for them again which corrupt you so now but the time you say you have removed some city they will see look for something that they will set up another board that will be managing the center whether they are in line or not and then they will make budget of billions of dollars again for that very board you see Nigeria trying to create a official template to enhance corruption it's unacceptable an official template to enhance corruption that brings me to my next question which is because this issue is dominating discourse nationally it's affecting Nigerians in ways that words even fail us to express if I'm not going to keep going run vicious circle is is NLC also going to demand for a probe into how some of these failures have come about into some of the corrupt practices has led to the country being kept in this position is it part of what you're going to be demanding probe and persecution of those found wanting I think it should even be one of the agenda of Mr. President because when people try to don't forget some persons majority of Nigerian may not have believed in the capacity of the president in power now but from the step taking so far and the people is trying to associate himself with the people is deploying to walk closely to achieving his dream for the economy people have beginning to say yet they're waiting for court judgment but for now it seems he knows what is here to do so the question is he should also take a step because now that he met with the chief secretary chiefs to say go after those that want to hurt product or people that want to abuse I take on the advantage of my statement the same team can be done so that I did I will see him so if for you to have suspended certain action going why is it finally not even working to now why who made it so so to prosecute them should be the act of government and we are that way and let's see organized labor should also be should also make it part of it but why I don't want organized labor to actually dilute his struggle because when you begin to carry so many requests in trying to achieve one result the federal government may be in a hurry to possibly stretch to promise you that eventually they're going to prosecute the people found wanting and you cannot prosecute until somebody is fine guilty or rather you can't prosecute until you get the people pointed out so it's a process so that process federal government eventually it's okay you have three demand let's go for the other one the major one that whoever that has a committed crime eventually will pay for it but what I think Nigerians want to hear is what happens to us because issue of where it's not abacca owner it's about the life living standard of on a genius whoever that says it does not concern you don't have a vehicle you are even once affected because he that doesn't have a vehicle we have no choice than to pay the price imposed on transportation by those people who want to exploit it so I think part of the request would be that those people that are virtually perfected corruption in Nigeria that it has become a norm but even going out of this country we're denting those people should be seen face trial so that Nigeria will also have that lift of integrity that yes we're after those that are blackmailing this country to a hono but by the time we accommodate try to protect them honestly it doesn't give a safe landing for the economy integrity thank you so much mr. Amici Asuguni for your time and inside thank you mr. Amici Asuguni is a former deputy president NLC and industrial relations expert he's joined us to take a look at the field subsidy removal and how it's affecting Nigerians and how NLC is coming in to speak for Nigerians and seek for solution well we're going to take a short break now when we return we know that tomorrow and on Sunday there'll be matches the under 20 World Cup is going on Israel Brazil Colombia Italy South Korea Nigeria USA and Uruguay will be competing in what is known as the quarterfinals let's see who will enter the semifinals and the finals but for that we'll have a sports point it come and give us that after this break stay with us