 Cut. That's great. Let's take a break, everybody. Hi. My name is Amy Breneman. You might remember me as Amy Gray, a juvenile court judge in the television show, Judging Amy. I had the pleasure of sharing stories that showed just how critical advocating for children can be. But I first learned about child advocates from my mother, Friedricha Breneman, a real juvenile court judge. In many ways, the show was based on her work. I was three years old when my mother became a judge. Throughout my childhood, I heard my mother talk about the problems that children in the justice system face. She taught me that the most critical factor in navigating that system is the child's lawyer. Because a child who is involved in the system has one spokesperson, one advisor, and one champion, her lawyer. Your work as a child's attorney has an enormous impact on the decisions that are made for your child client. Developing a relationship with your child client is vital and requires the greatest care a lawyer can give. You have to establish rapport, build trust, explain roles, and most importantly, help the child understand her own rights and responsibilities. Of course, those are steps required in any attorney-client relationship, but doing it successfully with children requires extra care on your part. You are taking an important step, representing your child clients just by watching this video. The American Bar Association section of litigation has put together this video in order to assist you to develop the skills that are crucial when interviewing children. You'll hear from experienced attorneys about the techniques that they use with their own child clients. And you'll see examples of those techniques and principles and practice. While we are focusing on child welfare and juvenile justice representation, remember, the skills presented here are applicable in any setting between a lawyer and child client. Thank you for taking the time to watch this video, and thank you for your work with children. The key to successfully representing a child is how you approach the child interview. Interviewing a child client presents a unique set of challenges. Children who come into the court system haven't been treated well by a lot of adults in their lives. Building a relationship with your child client and communicating with them effectively gives them a voice in their proceedings and enables you to get the information you need to represent them effectively. So that we have to remember that perspective, we need to be empathic, we need to put ourselves in their shoes, and we have to work on making this a process that children understand and can participate in. This video provides examples of successful methods of achieving these goals as you interview a child. We'll be discussing the skills and concepts behind relationship building, roles and responsibilities, communication tools, and successful interview techniques. Relationship building. Building a solid relationship based on trust is essential in the interview process. Good morning, James. I'm Laurie. We spoke briefly on the phone the other day. This starts with the first meeting. A child needs to be comfortable with his advocate, both personally and professionally. When you meet a person, and a client is a person, the first thing you have to do is demonstrate genuinely that you're focused on that person and you care about that person. Trust and rapport between a child and an attorney allows you to represent them in a way that brings their voice to the courtroom. What are you reading about? Kids who come into the system are accustomed to, unfortunately, interacting with adults often in negative ways. They've often had negative experiences with adults, and I've worked with kids who've been involved in the system who've said to me, when I see you walk into the room, to me, you're just another adult that I don't think I can trust. While gathering information, the first meeting should focus on building trust and establishing rapport. While gathering information, it is important to be engaged, but not too invasive. Start with simple questions that allow the child to get comfortable with you. Seat yourself so you can make eye contact with the child, but are not invading their space. And allow the child plenty of time to think about and respond to the questions. Do you feel like talking today? Yes. Where would you like to talk? Wherever. Would you like to stay in the house or do you want to go outside? I would like to stay in the house. Okay. That sounds great. Children that we meet who have been abused and neglected do have a hard time developing trust. And so that first meeting can be assured as 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes. And that's okay. Let the rapport build naturally. This can take time. You might save the tougher topics for the second meeting. So, what do you think of this place? It's alright. It's alright? It's the best place I lived, but I miss being home. Miss being home? I do. Demonstrate to the child that you are willing to take the time Do you have any of your favorite things here with you? Nope. I had a notebook that I used to write things down in. Did you write every day? I tried to. Well, that's pretty important. Do you know where it is? Maybe I can go get it for you? It should be in my room at my old foster home. If someone didn't take it, or throw it away. Why don't I go talk to your case worker and see if she can pick it up for you? Don't let her read it. Well, I'll do what I can, but I can't make any promises right now. Building trust includes keeping promises. So, never make promises you can't keep. They don't know you. You're a new person in their lives. You may not share their background. You may not share their culture. That a child knows that when you say you will do it is crucial. So many of the kids that we represent have been disappointed by adults, and so your way of showing, demonstrating that you're different is by following through. There are many things you can't control as a lawyer, and the best judgment you can make is recognizing what promises you can keep and what promises you can't. For example, you may want to assure this child that his journal will not be read, but a case worker may have already obtained a journal. Be aware of any threat to the careful building of a trusting relationship with your client. You must build a strong relationship with your client. That relationship will be the foundation for all other successful strategies you put to use. Key elements include building rapport first, starting with safe questions to engage the child, positioning yourself to make eye contact and tougher topics for later meetings, and always keeping your promises. Roles and responsibilities The roles of the attorney and other court professionals can be complicated legal concepts, especially for children. An early interview in your relationship should aim to explain your role as the child's advocate. How are you doing? I'll leave you guys to talk. Within 72 hours of a child being involved the child's met anywhere from 5 to 15 different people. Each of them having a different role. Each of them asking probably the same or similar questions. Distinguishing your role as their attorney is a difficult but important task. It is different from a guardian at Lightham. You must make sure the child understands her relationship with you. Do you know why I asked to come see you today? I think so. Can you tell me? My foster mom told me you're a lawyer. Do you know what that means? Not really. Well, you're right. I am a lawyer. I am a lawyer who represents children. I make arguments to the judge for you. I argue for what you want to have happen. Do you understand? No. Well, let me try to explain all the things that I can try to do for you. Remember that lawyers may have different roles in different jurisdictions. In some places, lawyers must follow what the child wants. This may be termed their expressed wishes. In other locales and in certain types of cases, the lawyer must advocate for the child's best interests. Still other jurisdictions may require that a lawyer combine these roles. In this example, the lawyer is appointed in the Child Protection Court under the expressed wishes standard to explain his role in contrast to that of the judge. The judge's job is to decide what's best for you. And to do that, she has to learn what's good for you. Now, one of the things she'll consider is what you want. It is my job to tell her what she want and she considers that too. She decides what's good for me. Yes. How does she know what's good for me? That's a good question, Carrie. Uh, she doesn't know what's good or best for you right now. That's why she'll talk with all of the lawyers, including me, your lawyer, before making her decision. To do the best job I can, I want to get to know you. And you can get to know me, and while we're getting to know each other, we'll talk about the things that are important to you. Does that make sense to you? I guess. Then we will decide what to tell her we think is best for you. We will tell her what you want. Okay. It's a question of modifying how you explain the court and the court system in a way that they can comprehend. You see in their eyes, you see it, how they might move, you see how their attention is gauged or not. In addition to your role, you must explain the roles of the other adults that will affect what happens to the child in court. Now, I want to explain to you the role of the court and the people in the court. It's important that you understand who everyone is and how he or she can affect you in your case, okay? My probation officer will be there? Yes, but it can be confusing about who's where, so I've drawn a picture to show where everyone will be when we get back to court. You want to come over and take a look at it? Okay. So, I'm a pretty bad artist, huh? Mm-hmm. Well, this is supposed to show where everyone is going to be in the courtroom. Do you know who this is? The judge. Exactly. Now, the judge has many responsibilities in the court. The judge is the main person who makes decisions about what happens to you. The first thing... Roles and responsibilities must not just be explained to a child. A lawyer must teach her client these concepts. Depending on the child's age and cognitive abilities, that explanation may take different forms. I work for you. You're the client. You know whether we go to trial, and you and I work together to decide what witnesses we want to call, what information we want to give the judge. We work as a team. Do you understand? Are you like a public defender? I want it a real lawyer. I... I am a real lawyer. I want to get to know you and your case. We have to work together. Are you okay with that? I think so. The rules of your locale will affect whether communications are confidential. As you explain your role, you also need to explain important rules like the attorney-client privilege. Well, because I'm your lawyer, I have to follow special rules. What you and I say to each other is private. I'm not allowed to tell anyone else unless you say it's okay. What do you think about that? You can't tell anyone what I say. Mm-mm. You aren't allowed to tell anyone what their clients tell them. It's called the attorney-client privilege. Does that make sense? I think so. Well, I want to make sure you understand. Can you explain it back to me? Well, whatever we say is between you and me. Mm-hmm. In addition to explaining the lawyer's role and the lawyer-client relationship, a lawyer must show that he will help the client both inside and outside the courtroom. The other thing I do as your lawyer is I will share information with you about the court and what happens there. I will explain information about your case, like what you can expect to happen in your court hearings, how your mother is doing about your brother, and I need you to tell me things that you know. You think you can share your thoughts and feelings? Maybe. I know you miss your family a lot, Carrie, and I'm sure you're wondering about them and we'll talk about how they're doing and we'll also talk about how you're doing here in your new foster home and in school. I miss my mom. Well, I do have some information about your mom. Explaining roles and responsibilities is a way to continue to build your relationship with your child-client. Explain all roles and relationships. Introduce all decision-makers. Explain important rules like the attorney-client privilege and mandatory reporting. And know the laws of your jurisdiction. Communication tools. As you're building a relationship with a child and explaining roles and legal concepts, you need to make sure that you are using the most effective tools to communicate clearly with your client. Well, I think it's good lawyering in general to keep it straightforward. You know, sometimes lawyers think that to be professional, we have to use the bigger words and the more complicated, convoluted sentences. And I don't think that's good lawyering in general. You're going to be changing the way you're communicating based on the age of that client, based on the situation of that client, based on what that client's been through that day. So when you're dealing with a young person, you're constantly modifying how you're communicating. I've told you that you have a lawyer on your side. That's me. Your brother will also have a lawyer because he was arrested for the same thing. Shorty was arrested too? Pay special attention to language in a child interview, both yours and the child's. Use words and phrases that are clear and age-appropriate. And use the child's terms for people and things. You call Ricky Shorty? Uh-huh. Yes. Shorty was arrested too. That's why he'll have a lawyer to help him just like you have me. Make sense? Yeah, but Shorty didn't do anything either. That's why you have a lawyer and Shorty has a lawyer too. I think it's important first to recognize that children are not simply small adults, that children go through developmental stages, and that those developmental stages affect their ability to understand what we say to them. I think when we represent kids, we've got to pay attention and use age-appropriate language and talking with them. And that does not mean talking to every 15, 16, and 17-year-old like they're a baby. It means listening, paying attention, and being flexible to use the language that they're capable of using and capable of understanding. You know how I told you that it's my job to tell the court your story? Yeah, like how the cop said, I hit Oscar in the fight and all. That's right. There'll also be another lawyer on the other side, the prosecutor. It's the prosecutor's job to tell another story. He'll tell the judge why he thinks you did this and how you should be punished. The prosecutor is a lawyer, but he doesn't work for you. He works against us on our case. Do you understand? Uh, he's another lawyer? Yes. Who side is the prosecutor on? He's on my side. Oh, no, never mind. He's not on my side, so he's trying to make me look guilty. That's right. Now, there will be other people in the courtroom, too, so I want you to know who they are. By avoiding legal jargon and confirming the child's understanding of his explanations, this lawyer is ensuring that he is communicating in a way that his client can understand. I always think of communication as being the burden of the lawyers, not the child. So you have to find a way to communicate and use the language that that child will understand. It is difficult for anyone to admit that they don't understand something to a stranger. That is no different for a teen or child. It is critical that you take the lead in creating a safe environment for the child to ask questions. Do you understand what I mean by a right to remain silent? I think so. And tell me in your words what a right to remain silent means. It means I don't have to talk if I don't want to, and that I can have my lawyer tell me whether or not I should talk. What about a police officer? Do you have to talk to him? Well, I can't be rude, so I just tell them my name and address and nothing else if I don't want to. That's right. If you have any questions about that or anything else about your case, will you please ask me? Yes. Great. Ask. Just be honest and say, you know, did you understand? And giving them a safe space in which to say, I didn't understand. I might say to them, you know, people tell me I talk like a lawyer and it's okay for you to tell me that too. If you don't understand what I'm saying, just tell me. Children need to come to sharing information in their own time. Don't be afraid of silence. If a child needs some time before talking, follow the child's lead. And I'm glad that you like muffins. It gives me a chance to treat myself too. The last time I was here, you said you were going to move in with your grandmother. Yep. That sounds like a plan. What happened? I don't want to talk about it. What would you like to talk about? I don't want to talk anymore. I'm done talking. Children need to know that you will be comfortable giving them the opportunity to share information when they are ready. Patients will go a long way in building trust. What a mess I've made. Oh, my. Why don't I clean this up? And then we can start talking again. Okay. It is your responsibility as the lawyer to help the child understand what is happening during their case. Use developmentally appropriate words and sentences. Avoid legal jargon. Use words your client would use for people and things. And don't be afraid to allow for silence during your interview. Let the child take the lead on when they are ready to share information. Successful interview techniques. By the time a lawyer appears in court, the lawyer needs to have gathered enough information to be able to try the case. To gather information effectively and clearly, you must plan the interview in advance and consider the strategies that best fit the child client, the case, and the relationship between the child and the attorney. There's always a conflict between the attorney having a list of things they want to find out and the child's interest in really just finishing this conversation because it's riddled with so much anxiety for them. There are some simple techniques that a lawyer can use when interviewing a child client. The first technique is called child-centered interviewing. You have to be empathetic. You have to be focused on the client, and you have to demonstrate that. We really have to start where the client is. We have to begin the conversation where they are. When practicing child-centered interviewing, start with basic relationship-building questions to encourage your child client to open up and share his concerns. Use active listening techniques. Acknowledge your client's feelings and concerns through supportive words or gestures. You can then encourage more productive communication by addressing your client's concerns before continuing with the interview. Well, listen, I want to talk to you about the meeting we're going to have about your special classes. What do you think about your new school? I don't like it. It's too hard. Well, what makes it hard? I don't know. The other kids seem to be further ahead than me. They do? Yeah, that's how it feels. Well, that must be hard for you. How long have you been at this school? Since I moved in with my new foster parents. And how's that going? Okay, but I really miss my brother. I want to be with him. I don't know how he got to be at Grandma's, and they put me here. I mean, I like my foster parents, but I want to be with my family. Well, I can tell your family's important to you. Maybe we can make arrangements for a visit and phone calls with your brother and grandma. But I don't know her number. Well, I can get that for you and make the arrangements, okay? Okay. Now, let's talk about what you want to have happen at that meeting, okay? Okay. Not all children can articulate their needs clearly. You need to listen carefully, not only to what a child is saying, but to how the child is saying it for clues to what the child's concerns really are. When did it all start? It was like a month ago, me and my brother were staying with our foster mom, dear Jeff, and there was another kid there named Oscar, and he always got to go home, and he had just come from an overnighter with his mother, and he didn't go to school that day because he said he didn't feel good. Sounds like you're upset that Oscar always gets to go home, and you don't. How about if I talk to your social worker about a visit with your mom, okay? This lawyer recognized his client's concern about getting time with her mother. A child-centered interviewer will always be an active listener. He will identify concerns and address them first in order to allow the child to then focus on the subject of the interview. You can use an interviewing method called the funnel technique to encourage the child to give their account of what happened and to develop facts important to the case. Asking open-ended questions, letting the kid run with it, and then following up with narrow questions, and I find it to be extremely effective. In the first stage of the funnel technique, the lawyer allows the child to tell the story uninterrupted. In the second stage, the lawyer asks open-ended questions to further develop facts. In the third stage, the lawyer confirms facts through a series of narrow, close-ended questions. Here's an example of the first stage where the lawyer allows his client to speak uninterrupted. So why don't you tell me what happened when Oscar got hit? There was one particular game we all wanted to play, which was called WrestleMania. And you throw the person in a body slam by throwing them onto the floor. And then, like, I let them tell me the story at least once, if not more times, all the way through without my asking any questions. It shows the child that you're going to let them speak, that you're not going to cut them off, that you don't discredit their story because they're a child. But it also begins to reveal to you their view, where they're sitting in this whole narrative, in this whole story, their perspective on it, what's important to them. Stage two of the funnel technique is your chance to track back through the story using open-ended questions starting with who, what, where, when, why, and how to clarify the story and continue to develop facts. Okay. So let's go over that again slowly so I can understand each part. When did it all start? It was, like, a month ago. Me and my brother were staying with our foster mom, Deirdre. And you know we had seen a show on TV called WrestleMania. Oh, what's WrestleMania? WrestleMania is when you throw the person in a body slam by throwing them onto the floor. Tell me more about that. Does it hurt? No, because we had put pillows down on top of the rug that was in the room. So when you fell down, it didn't really hurt that much. And we were all doing it to each other. I mean, Oscar was doing it too, so... Yeah? Yeah, and then Shorty got mad because he said we had thrown him down too hard and he picked up a bat, and he had hit Oscar with the bat. And that was it. And the police came. What did Shorty do with the bat? He had poked Oscar in the stomach with it. Poked? Yeah, poked. And what happened to Oscar? Well, Oscar sort of fell down holding his stomach crying. Can you show me what Shorty did? Yeah, he picked up a bat and said, we had threw me down too hard and he poked him in the stomach with it. Well, how soon? Open-ended questions just allow the child to tell you what's most important to him. What did the child notice and observe? Stage three of the funnel technique takes place deeper into the client relationship. The lawyer has already heard each of the following facts from the child and is using narrow questions to reconfirm and clarify the facts that are most legally relevant to the case. Did they leave you in that room? Yes. Did they leave you in there for a long time? Yes. How long? It felt like forever, maybe a few hours. Did they feed you? No. Did they let you see your mom? No. They didn't? No. Never? Well, later after they wrote the statement. Did you give the statement? Did you tell them things and they wrote them down? Yes. Why? I don't know. Because I didn't think they would let me out of there. What happened after they wrote it down? They finally let me see my mom. Did you know that they would let you see your mom if you gave the statement? Yes. How did you know that? That's what they told me. That's the only reason I signed the statement. They said I had to sign it to see my mom. An attorney would never be this directive with a child client early in the relationship or with facts she did not already confirm in an open question format. Directive questioning too early in the process could cause a child to assent to a statement that he did not believe to be true in an effort to please his lawyer or simply avoid confrontation. What would happen when the police came in the room to talk to you? They were talking and asking me questions. Asking about what? All kinds of stuff about what happened. What did they ask you? They asked me to say I did it. How did they ask you? They weren't really asking, I guess. They were telling me I had to. The narrow questions then are important for you to get the details that you need as a lawyer. You know what's important. Sometimes you are forced to discuss difficult topics with your child client. These conversations should only take place after you have built rapport and trust with your client. Address the issues directly and be truthful with your client. Allow the child to react emotionally and then help them to focus on the topic at hand. What brought them there is something that either frustrates them, angers them, embarrasses them. It instills a lot of emotions that don't help generate a productive interview. When you know there's going to be an issue discussed that's difficult for a child, I feel that that is a moment of great delicacy and I think it's a moment of great respect for the child. And I think that you call the ball on that. You say, I realize this is difficult to talk about. Jessica, I wanted to talk to you about the court hearing that's coming up next week. Will my mom be there? I hope so, but I don't know whether she'll attend. She'll get something in the mail telling her when the hearing is. I think you know, Jessica, that your mom has not been doing well lately. She left the drug treatment program and she may be doing drugs again. Just because she left the drug program doesn't mean she's using drugs again. She wants to get me back. Jessica, I know you love your mother very much and that she loves you and your brother. Shut up. But your mother has been using drugs for many years and it's very hard for people who use drugs to stop using it. I said shut up. I know this is hard. Please remember I'm on your side. I have a couple more things to tell you, okay? Jessica, I have to tell you that at tomorrow's hearing your social worker will report to the court that your mother's last drug screen from two weeks ago came back positive. Jessica. You're lying. My mom wouldn't do that to me. I would not lie to you. I know this is upsetting and it must be very hard for you to talk about. Jessica, I know you'd prefer to change the subject, but it's very important that we talk about this now because it may change what you and I tell the judge at tomorrow's hearing. I want to go home. I told you this before, but you're not listening to me. I know you have told me. I will tell the judge you want to go home, but the judge may not agree. If the judge says no, do you have a second choice about where you'd like to live? Let's talk about it. This lawyer faced a tough conversation in a straightforward and truthful way. By giving your client a chance to react emotionally, you can then help her to focus on what to do about the situation. Techniques that can lead to a successful interview include practicing child-centered interviewing. Be an active listener. Acknowledge the child's feelings and respond to the child's concerns. The funnel technique can help you get more complete information. Let the child tell their story without interruption. Ask open-ended questions. Then follow up with more detailed questions. And when discussing difficult topics, be sure to build trust first. Be direct and truthful and allow the child to react emotionally before guiding them back to the discussion. Building relationships, explaining roles and responsibilities, using communication tools effectively, and applying sound interview techniques can help you work successfully with your young clients. There's nothing more rewarding than having a child say to you, even when things have not gone the way they wanted. Thank you for being my lawyer. Children involved in the justice system may be facing a time of significant crisis in their lives. It is essential that you, their lawyers, are the best advocates you can be. The strategies in this video will help you guide your client successfully through our system of justice. On behalf of the young clients you serve and the justice systems you help improve, thank you for the work that you do for children.