 Hi everyone welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020 where we look at your questions your concerns even your worries around All things to do with sex and sexuality and today We're absolutely delighted to have with us Zubair Kalsia Zubair is not just a really good friend But he is an incredible voice in the area of queer rights in India He's the one who manages the PR and culture for Diageo India for their Luxury areas and today Zubair is with us because along with many other things He is also HIV positive Zubair was diagnosed about three years ago and Has spent the last three years Collating collecting finding researching information on HIV to see how he can help Everybody else out there in the most normal and basic vocabulary That actually We can put out to everybody and that makes sense to people when they listen to it So, you know, we did a real a while ago and lots of questions came in. So Thank you for having me and thanks I'm so glad that we're doing this and yeah, we we did have our real which you know A lot of people looked at it a lot of people commented And you know, I feel like this was much needed for us to do this because there were some comments here and there that They were worries. They were also other random things. So I think it's good that we're all sitting down having this chat and they're addressing a lot of it Yeah, I'm super excited because I just think, you know, when There was so much conversation in the 90s and the early 2000s around HIV AIDS And now we don't hear but I feel like the myths from that time continue and I remember working for Nas London and being really Surprised that now HIV is seen as a chronic condition And very rarely in, you know, does it convert to AIDS? So maybe let's just start with Giving our audiences the first basic information around what is HIV and how is it different from AIDS? So actually that's a great place to start because a lot of people Don't actually know the difference between the two and they kind of use them interchangeably HIV is the virus and it is Human immunodeficiency virus and that's the wires that enters your system But that's the wires that can be treated If not treated it leads to a condition or syndrome called AIDS Which is when the immune system of your body has been attacked by this virus and the level of the virus is so much that The immune system is heavily compromised and you reach a state where you start to get affected with a lot of other Illnesses and you catch a lot of other viruses and things like that So you basically attacks your immunity But the difference is that when someone has HIV they're not necessarily You will have AIDS HIV is at a stage where the virus is in your system But if you're taking medication it will not lead to AIDS and actually thankfully today We're at a stage where it doesn't lead to AIDS as long as your own Medication and you're taking your ART And tell us about the ART is it the scary medicine like you know people think it might be like this really Scary treatment like you know cancer chemotherapy like visuals come up Or do you think it is just a pill that you have to take and it's quite honestly it is just a pill a day And it's not to sort of trivialize the importance of that pill but it is a pill a day and What that bill does is that it basically Controls the level of the wires in your body So the wires does not keep spreading in your in your blood system in your bloodstream in your body So that it does not lead to AIDS and what that also does actually very interestingly is that it if you keep taking your pills after Roughly about six months depending on your body and how you're responding to medication You actually reach this state your stage of being you equals to you which is undetectable is Untransmitable and that's a very interesting Interesting topic, but the medication is is a pillar day sometimes too depending on how your body reacts Everybody's body is different, but it is a pill It will take some time getting used to taking a pill a day But it just adds to your life and you can leave a really enriched life After taking that bill. So let me ask this question then then because it's a chronic illness that you're managing How does it impact the lifestyle like you are in a very Public profile job. You're talking about HIV So has the lifestyle changed obviously we remember the horror stories where you know people would lose their jobs their Relationships and everything because of this so how how is it different now and what does it look like now? Well, all of those things that you want to do in your life If you put it down on a piece of paper and use you still look at it after I look at it after the diagnosis I still can do all of those things and therefore I Think it does not impact your lifestyle directly What I will say is that because you know There's so many different opinions and misconceptions and stigman all of that around it when you have to survive in different equal systems You deal with a lot of different people. So therefore I think Not for nothing it actually makes you stronger and gives you tougher skin And it allows you to actually reach harder for the things you want to do I'm still doing all the things I want to do I travel I You know, I go out and have a drink with friends when I'm a singer performance club pubs and I have very very Enriching career in the alphabet of industry So there's all of these things that you can still do when nothing changes And it's just about how you can equip yourself to deal with those different people and ecosystems And that's why conversations like this are so important because it lets you sort of take back and say, okay I know that everyone is not a hundred percent aware of HIV But I am secure enough in who I am and therefore I still want all those things that I wanted pre Diagnosis one of the things we were trying to put across last time was that two things simultaneously, which is really hard actually One to say that do not take HIV lightly You need to take all the precautions that are imaginable to make sure that you do not contract this virus But if it happens through almost any number of reasons that you do get it Then life doesn't come to an end every opportunity is still available to you I think the biggest problem that we found on with the Zubair and I did a reel on this some time ago And it isn't the fact that we can't put the information out the problem was people don't want to listen We are back again here Trying to see if we can get more leads to the same conversation and what I really want to start with So bear and I mentioned something and we're going to today for everybody listening out there I asked Dr. Anvita Madan to respond to this particular question One of the things that we said was I said can HIV spread through? Kissing and Zubair said under very specific circumstances, but basically speaking It is not through saliva that HIV spreads and of course there was any amount of Argument on that will you one with a win on this one for us, please Yeah, and I feel like it feels like an old-school record to go around and saying this is the way HIV spreads because I think science and medicine has gone so beyond You know when we come to HIV so it does not spread from kissing You cannot get HIV and it's really important to say HIV and not AIDS You know, that's what Zubair was saying you cannot it's the virus that gets transmitted So you cannot get HIV from kissing anybody. It is a sexually transmitted You know infection which you will get if you have unprotected sex But what I would actually like to add to it is as Zubair was saying and it's now this complicated medical world where even if you have unprotected sex it depends on the levels of the virus in the carrier and They by mistake it happens and you are at risk of contracting The virus they now even have precautionary You know medication like you know the like you have The I feel the next day pregnancy pill you have the next day prevention of HIV obviously We don't want you it's not a let's go into all risk behavior and then go and have that pill But you know things happen And science has advanced to that by medicine has that if you feel that it was Difficult night things happened and you want to go and prevent it. There's even medication around it So kissing definitely not and even so only way you get it sexually is Unprotected penetrative sex You know and those are the only it could be anal or vaginal, but those are the ways you get it So I'm just gonna quickly jump in with one question You know because this came up a lot that even if it's you're kissing and saliva won't spread it But if you have lesions in the mouth if you have wounds or cuts in the mouth Will and then you kiss the person will that spread it? It actually will not because the the science behind it is that and Maybe you know doctor you want to weigh in as well because I think it would be good to you know Here both of our if it's on it one is someone who spent time reading about this and researching but also Yourself who you know is probably a little more qualified than I am to talk about it as well But they the the science behind it or the medical science behind it is that the virus actually doesn't live in saliva because the saliva creates and Automatically contains an enzyme that actually kills the virus as such or makes a dormant So the chances of that happening are extremely extremely extremely rare when I say extremely rare, they're like 0.0001 Percent chance that that would happen and they are studies that I've been done by the center for disease control They've been studies by by done by so many medical hospitals by Mayo Clinic, etc And that show that there are no Actual documented cases of this happening But however because of the perception or the perceived risk, which is not a natural risk But the perceived risk you have a lot of people Still believing in the fact that yes, it could happen and also Fact is that you would need about almost like 15 liters of saliva for this to actually Actually spread and even then it's really really rare I Don't have much to add you covered it all, you know And I and I just think that I really feel where it comes from is that we had all those It was You know just the way if you think about COVID it was an unknown illness Which had so many myths around it and people were so scared about it and we had so many deaths from it That it was frightful, but it's now You know, it's been 30 years since the peak of the whole illness and when it was very serious and problematic and medical science has really progressed and so it's actually now time to Put these myths to rest and stop being so scared Stop being so punitive about it any longer, you know It's a very different age and era of it and people I feel are still living with those perceptions from 30 years ago Yeah, you know, it's interesting on with I I did not know that you have a morning after pill for HIV Yeah, it's actually called post exposure prophylaxis which basically Is it actually has the similar compounds as ART which you take Regularly if you are diagnosed with HIV But what that pill does is that if you feel that you even through any circumstance Have been exposed to the virus It could have been exposed to the virus through unprotected intercourse penetration or any other way that usually it spreads you can take pep which is post exposure prophylaxis and That reduces the chances if you contracting the virus after after known exposure and you have to take it within Between 24 to 48 hours max not beyond that But it basically reduces the chances if you getting or contracting the virus to almost zero percent not really but it really reduces the chances of that and it's a similar the case with a lot of post exposure Dedication out there, but it reduces the chances to a very very abysmal level Yeah, and what I would add to that is that each time you have unprotected sex. It doesn't mean you jump You know, we know people Who might be at Parties or might be aware of situations or you know We know of a lot of chem sex parties that happen And then you don't know the partners that you've slept with and you don't know if there's Unprotected sex that might have taken place So there are, you know reasons behind people taking it and there is a whole medical procedure It's you know, you need to be aware of it has to be taken within a certain time frame You can't take it later and what's really interesting is that you won't go for an HIV test because the HIV will not show up But it is more Behavioral reaction like you might be aware that you might be at risk and that's when you take it It's not something that you can go for a blood test and it comes out and then you take it It's based on things that might have happened You know the day before or otherwise and within the community I think education around what those things are really important and they take place So that you're more aware that if these Actions or behaviors happen that were at risk, then you should go as in here you go to a gum clinic to get it But you know in India you go I'm guessing to a doctor or I don't know if it's off the shelf in pharmacy Yeah, but here you go to a gum When you go to the doctor as well here And then you would basically get a prescription for it. It's not really over the counter here. However, you know, there are certain Manufacturers that you can contact and whatever, but I think the the access to prep and pepper still not as As great as what it should be in in India right now, which is why you know it's even harder to procure and therefore certain doctors will prescribe it certain doctors won't prescribe it and then you have To go to certain pharmacies only that will actually have it so the access in that channel is not the best right now We do the other thing actually, you know when you were you were talking actually wanted to talk about prep as well Because pep we know is post exposure But prep is pre exposure and for whatever reason if you and your partner or the other consenting person that you're having Intercourse with do decide Consentually decide to have unprotected sex And are sexually active. There is also a pre exposure pill, which is pre exposure prophylaxis that they can take which again reduces the chances of Contracting HIV to a very very very abysmal level. But again, like you said even with that pill It's not like just popping a candy and you know You know going ahead with with indulging in intercourse But it actually requires you to take it a certain time before for it to actually take effect and to be in its most effective You know place in your body to actually protect you So it's not like you take it in the morning and you know a few hours later. You indulge in unprotected Intercourse and then you expect that pill to work So there is a proper medical procedure actually or a guideline to follow with both prep and PEP and I think you know because I got you know one of the messages that I had gotten after the video was it was he talk about sex always being saved and Intercourse being safe and consensual and this can be you know safety can happen via condoms It can happen wire prep it can happen wire PEP and there's so many ways to protect yourself Doing intercourse and I remember getting a message saying You know you're you're talking about safety so much But there is there are so many folks who do enjoy having unprotected sex and my and you know The thing that I actually mentioned to that person as well was that that's fine But it just should not come at the cost of safety at the end of the day You've got to protect your own sexual health and your own section wellness and you have the power to do it And therefore you do have things like prep but read about it and actually consult a doctor before you start taking it Know what kind of dosage is required? Know when to take it when not to take it because that means that's just benefiting you because you are basically ensuring and you're Equipping yourself with or with the right tools to protect yourself And I actually feel that I think people who come around to take prep and PEP I feel Have you know, they are part of a community Where conversations are happening the education there might be like precautionary education and everything and I would really encourage you that if You know, you didn't know about this and you are in an environment that could be at risk or not safe or whatever Go read up join. You know join an organization. There's so many resources online Educate yourself about it figure out a community that you can join that can help you with it It is not something for you to say. Oh, I can just go ask the doctor about it it is something that you really need to get educated about and then you know It's it's a way of enjoying a sexual life or a relational life In a safe way, you know, but I think it takes a journey when till you reach there, you know So take that journey before you do it Like I said, you know, we did the real but instead of people following it was more about derailing the conversation And I think that comes from So I mean it was just such a deliberate attempt to make sure that nobody got the help It just you know, you wonder what kind of fear that comes from but Very quickly. I want to actually come to some of the questions that came up on the real I think the first one has been answered But I'm going to say it out anyway because I find people connect to words that they have asked And it sometimes makes it better to so the first one says once you've been diagnosed with HIV does that mean that the person can never have sex again and And does the partner sex life at that point in there or does taking medicines help and we've had both of you telling us at great length that Sex life doesn't end over there and yes medicines can help Unfortunately, there's so much fear and Ignorance around this and also sometimes a deliberate desire to not find out That people kind of back off from relationships if they find that somebody has HIV and a lot of times it is two people who have HIV who end up Perhaps being together simply because that community is more open to understanding and acknowledging things Yeah, no, I'm you know, I remember we had this chat and I think even with this person's question You know, it just signifies that that fear of actually finding a companion or finding a partner or being able to have an active and healthy Sex life after after being diagnosed that question the way question of it is Is just it's it's basically telling of the kind of fear that exists, right? But you know like we already discussed there is there is of course the you equals to you stage which is Undetectable is untransmittable which happens when you're taking your ART medications regularly and then there is also prep and prep So you're actually if you imagine Both partners in the situation Hypothetically one partner does have HIV and is on ART is at a U equals to U status And if they still want peace of mind The other partner can also with the help of a doctor and proper consultation Get on prep, you know And that is if of course they really want peace of mind, but you know, you're there's so much There's so much out there for you to sort of safeguard yourself and your partner sexual health So definitely the ability to have an active sex life Exists and it exists, you know through all of these these methods the the bit that we were talking about was it's good that people know this because If you don't know this you're gonna always sit in that box or in that space of I will never be able to be sexually intimate with someone who has HIV because that fear of contraction is so strong and it is Like like Anvita said Stemming from the fact that you know, we're still living in the mindset of the 80s But the medicine has progressed so much But we're still living with that the fear and the you know the Misconception stigma that existed back then so yeah, a lot of people with HIV do end up You know being with people who also are HIV positive just because there is a level of empathy and understanding that exists And you don't have to explain yourself You don't have to explain Medication and treatment and all of that stuff So, you know, it just it becomes easier and that shouldn't be the case Not to say that they might not be great partners for each other But sometimes, you know, you shouldn't have to be with someone just because They're they understand this part of your who you are in this part of your diagnosis But they might have a lot further at legs. So, you know, it's an interesting piece And I think it's more important that people become aware that yes Intercourse is very much possible And you know, and so I something that's coming up in my head and we don't need to I think it's a different Pot like and there's another podcast I think there is now a whole conversation around ethics and morality of disclosing if you're HIV positive because You might not be a Trump, you know, you can't transfer if you are the What the way it's talking about that you cannot actually Give HIV to someone if you're at that stage then the question of Should you or shouldn't you disclose is actually a personal choice, which you know, like I'm saying we can really Have a whole podcast on it because there's so many layers on like whose choice is it and what is it and But that is a big discussion now around Ethically morally do you or do you not need to disclose? and No, that's a very interesting one something that I also deal with on a daily basis, but I think that's a whole different conversation And so just to leave it there that people might think and I am a pro promote proponent of honesty and open communication But in this case It is the choice of the person with HIV it is like coming out and it's their choice So and you know, we can obviously discuss it in other podcasts But I think all it's my my second coming out It was like a second coming out for me And the thing that I just sort of One asked it and the thing that I like said it is your choice and it is also that You know, you don't need to tell everybody you tell the people Who you you value and possibly might even explore an intimate relationship with After, you know, whenever you feel ready, it does not mean that oh, I you go on a first date and you tell somebody So it just depends and it is your personal choice. It is your Uh, your piece of information to tell or not to tell as long as you're doing it with good conscience and not putting someone at risk Unless you're doing a podcast with Seema and then In which case you have to tell the whole world Next question that came up and again A brief answer to this. What are the initial symptoms of HIV? What distinguishes them from normal STIs? So actually this is an interesting one and I'll actually try and keep it as specific to the question is that With HIV once you contract the rice the first exposure post exposure to HIV it actually can take Um up to about six to eight weeks actually show up in a report In a blood report usually between like a month month and a half to about two months depending on how you're body and your immunity Um, but what happens at that point is called the zero conversion period of when the virus will start to show up and Initially, you might not see any symptoms But if at all you Have a very viral like symptoms when you get the regular viral which is a come in with a fever body pain or cold Um That process could be the process of zero conversion if there is definite exposure To the virus or possible definite exposure to the virus And that is the the only sort of symptoms that you can sort of Attribute to HIV and at that point is very important to get tested And therefore it is important in general if you're sexually active and having unprotected sex Keep tests for HIV and all the other STIs that you should be testing for but if I was symptoms standpoint During zero conversion, you will find symptoms that are Similar to a regular viral your body pain or sore throat A cough a cold usually when you go from checkups you will see whether your lymph nodes are swollen So that's another tell etc to see, you know, whether you're at that stage of it showing up in a test or it's still Not it feeds zero conversion in your body Um point out for everybody exactly where the lymph node would be I was trying to do that Yeah, so the lymph node is basically here And if it's a little swollen the doctor will actually check all across here And but mostly your lymph nodes are here So he will check this out. And if it is swollen, then you will You know, that's another tell to see The stage up with the virus is sort of in your body. And then of course itchy throats body pain soreness cold Yeah, the regular Pretty much like a virus. Okay. Um Next one once diagnosed and I know that you responded to this So again, maybe just a quick response once again once diagnosed with hiv. How does it affect mortality? Do people die with hiv even after taking medication regularly? People do not die after being diagnosed with hiv HIV is not AIDS hiv Where you rarely needs to eat today because you have the power of medication that keeps hiv at a very very low limit in your body You reach an undetectable and untransmittable stage, which means you can live a very long Very healthy very in which life even despite being hiv positive Uh, next one. What are some other diseases that an hiv positive patient can catch? Are the hiv drugs effective enough to mitigate the chances of other ancillary fatal diseases? So hiv drugs will basically only control the amount of virus in your body and keep it at a very low minimal level They're not drugs meant to treat any other Um, any other viruses or diseases or illnesses that you may catch but The the interesting thing about what hiv medication is that if the virus isn't controlled Your immunity grows. You're keeping your immune system high So it's just a A question of how strong immunity is and if you're controlling the hiv and you're taking good physical care of yourself in general HIV has no bearing on what you may or may not catch if you're on medication You have to stay on medication And initially when you just get on medication the chances of getting tb are there because the virus has not actually been Medicated it's in your body So that is the only time where they might give you medication to To prevent the chances of getting tb But which rarely happens also because you're taking The ART medication that keeps your viral load low So they're they're actually not really related in that sense to you know, put it short and to answer the question shortly They're not related You just need to make sure that you're on medication and you're taking good care of yourselves like anyone would do So I just want to add two things to what you were saying one I have a feeling this is coming from the confusion between hiv and aids When you're on when the hiv virus has converted to aids your immunity and is your immunocompromised At that point you are most susceptible to catch as many like Infections and illnesses and that's why most people die of the when they have aids Used to die of the infections and other like pneumonia and other things that they might catch But we have to remember this is hiv. This is not aids So your immunity is actually not compromised in the same way ART is helping keeping the viral loads low But that doesn't mean that you're superhuman you will get whatever any other normal person gets So you get a cold you'll get the flu you'll get all of it You will get the covid you'll get the malaria, you know, you know, you are like any other person So just because you're on ART doesn't mean you're not going to get other illnesses I just thought you know, it's important to say those two things Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Thank you both and finally Well, actually, no, there are two questions. One is what is the time period that you should like should you test? At every point that you've had unprotected sex How often do you need to test and This particular question kind of confused me. They said How long is should one wait before having unprotected sex the second time? um Well, okay So we It was kind of split them because I think there are two different things this person is trying to know When it comes to testing if you're sexually active you ought to test every six months minimally If you're having a very sexually active life When it comes to hib specifically In case you feel like there has been exposure You do a test wait about four weeks and do a test because it won't show up before four to six weeks Watch out for what I talked about. So your conversion you can play this back But when it comes to the second part of the question, which is basically how long before you can have unprotected sex again if Consentually you're having unprotected sex with a partner etc after post disclosing your Your status and you can do it when you're on medication and when you reached a u equals to u status But you'll also be very important to protect Both your sexual health and your partner's sexual health. So therefore Ensure that your partner is aware that you do have HIV that you are HIV positive If you're going to have unprotected sex and ensure that either he's on prep you are on u equals to u That's the status that you're at So it depends on how long it takes you to get to u equals to q Or alternatively if your partner in prep, but you have to have this conversation. There's not a one size fits all answer to this And I would say that it's a really see, you know, there are whatever however Aware or educated somebody might be The emotional reaction or the emotional fears Are always within us. Um, so You know have those conversations those conversations might be difficult conversations It might take some time for you to get comfortable. Don't judge yourself if there are emotional fears Because you know, we've all heard the 30 year old stories. So it is really normal To be fearful and you know, and if you talk about it and get the help Then you can overcome some of those fears and challenges, but it is normal. So don't judge yourself for having those fears Yeah, I think this is something that it's quite important to put out. It's something that we have talked about that if You feel that your partner has HIV it is very normal to be afraid because Educating yourself on it is not going to be an overnight thing You are going to take time till you understand it properly It is going to take time for you to get it and so like Anvita said, don't judge yourself for that Be afraid to figure out this thing and then be kind to yourself and Understand that it is okay to feel that way and to move forward from that fear Rather than being my being stuck in that fear. Sorry. I think you might find that the setting has changed a little bit But that's because we had a tech hitch But we're we're back One very strange question that came in for both of you, which I really didn't understand So I hope that you can explain it to me. So the lady who says that her husband has been cheating on her She didn't realize that he was he's been cheating on her with a lot of other women And what's happened is that she has caught HIV from having sex with him But he hasn't got HIV and she said that the doctor said maybe it's because she was Not feeling as strong. Maybe she was a little bit more susceptible and that's why she's caught it So is it something that you can do? Like can you be a carrier for HIV and then gets get this? Oh, no, you can't it's actually a very It's audio and I find it quite confusing because If someone has contracted HIV Then they cannot necessarily be a carrier, but not have it themselves They have contracted the virus that means you do have that virus and you can't just carry it and you can't stay You know dormant And if it does you would have not given it to your partner So it's it's it's actually a little confusing and I don't think we have all the information or maybe This person needs to get a little more information or consult another doctor But the but the the base matter is that if The husband got it through his infidelity and she got it through him Which is highly unlikely given that that he definitely does have the virus because there's no way That she could have contracted HIV from her husband and him not have the virus So that does not make sense to me But maybe we don't have all the information and maybe she contracted it from somewhere else. I'm not sure I don't know how do you and without over to you As an uh, you know, so one of the things that I will put out there is that Very because a lot of times it was seen as the gay man's infection There was a community of women that were not paid attention to and we know The majority of heterosexual women and actually in London The the number of people who are increasingly getting it because I think there's a lot of Education in the gay community Few people are contracting it fewer people are contracting it. It actually tends to be on the rise in the People of color like the Asian and the African heterosexual women community and it's mostly from this idea that there are a lot of heterosexual men Who might be engaging in leisure sex with the same sex, you know, like with men or without the women And but the women think they're in a monogamous relationship So they don't really think about getting tested or you know checking or otherwise And it lands out that they have HIV So what I want to say is that this is a very common scenario But what seems peculiar about this one is that he doesn't have it So maybe it didn't show up on his test and it will later Or she might have contracted it through other ways like blood or otherwise And it just so happens that the infidelity has come out now because of what happened, you know, and That's come out because of the hiv Results and it might not have come out otherwise But I but I agree with the way we need more information So I think it'll be hard to say anything conclusive because it just seems like a tricky question but basically the baseline is that Some you cannot be a carrier without being infected Is that what we're saying? Yeah, I mean the the whole idea of carrier is bored, right because it's if you know logically if you have the virus And and you're You're you're not taking medication and you have HIV and you have I'm protected sex with someone else And if she's gotten from him that means he's definitely has the virus if he's not seeking treatment for and if he is seeking treatment for it Things probably at a stage where the viral levels Are lower And therefore the chances of transmission are lower. So It's it's it's it's a little odd and like I said, I think it needs more information because It's quite peculiar Okay, sounds good. Um, I I know that This is a conversation like Kanwita said, uh, Zubair that we need to maybe have More of this is not going to be the last one that we do We need to have another one on this with A lot more questions and concerns But for today, I would like to say thank you so much for joining us thank you more than that for being brave enough to face the entire world with this with this openness because It's not easy And you open yourself up to a lot of judgment and you're very brave and we love you for it And you know, you have our support always Um for everybody out there if you need to get in touch with Zubair about any more questions or concerns He can be reached on his instagram handle, which is Zubair Kalsia And of course, we'll have all the information in the caption below So even if you don't know how his spells his name You'll find it written down over there and you will be able to reach out to him Zubair is very very supportive to everybody who does reach out um, if you have any questions, um on Consult on consultations Of course, you can always reach out to dr. Anvita Madan behel and Anvita is on And the tamadan behel at gmail.com. Well once again, the information is at the bottom And I am on info dot sima dot anand at gmail.com in case you want to send in any further questions If you've found the podcast helpful, if you've enjoyed it, please do comment like subscribe and as always Till we meet again. Stay safe and look after yourselves