 Thank you very much Rosie. And without any further ado, I'm going to do introduce Dave White and Donna Longclough Who are going to give our final keynote? Please join me in thanking him. He's got the clicker now Hi Look at you You actually stay I'm impressed. So who goes first? So this is Dave White Somehow he's conned the UAL into paying him To work with digital and education and Dave and I have actually been working together since about 2011 on digital and education and engagement and That seems to have worked well so far and this is Donna Longclough That's the best I can do and We've been as Donna says we've been working together for a while. She is just because I can never remember the associate professor for Anthropological research at the University of North Carolina Charlotte. Telephone number 704. No, you don't need to know that And we are here. Well, that's the title of our talk But before we really get started we'd like to thank a bunch of people So the point is that we don't work in isolation Yeah, we're part of the network. You are all part of the network You're here at all to have other networks. And so this this is part of our network and we haven't been super rigorous About we haven't been super rigorous. Yeah about citing everybody in the thing So, so please don't be under any impression as you know, Jane was saying this morning. We're not terrifically original We think with other people and this is just an attempt at transparency on our part So Context super important. Everything we're talking about is in a teaching and learning context It really only makes sense from a teaching and learning point of view It's it's strange To say that quite often you find yourself working in a university and actually having to advocate for teaching and learning being a Thing, okay, but we really like teaching teaching and learning and not just any old teaching and learning the real Hippie-ish tree hugging end of teaching and learning. Okay, so that's where we're coming from in the talk That's the context of the kind of whole structure of what we're going to be talking about Yeah, Dave likes to call himself a truth and beauty guy to try and detract from all the other stuff They get set to and so these are some of the things that get in the way of us doing the truth and beauty thing Right, we want to talk about education. We want to talk about teaching We want to talk about learning and then some annoying people want to talk about this stuff They want to talk about employability. They want to talk about fees They want to talk about student as a consumer This is a problem Not just in your country So at that point, that's where we violate violate all copyright just on that last one. Sorry about that. No fair use man Yeah, I called it Is it? Oh, no, wait, it's my life. You see that's the trouble with doing something together All right, I got all into the time warp. Okay. Yeah all that stuff all that talking about teaching and learning That's not someone else's job and it's not actually your job to complain about all those things. So that list It's a shitty list of things. I don't want to think about those things either But we all have a responsibility not just to think about those things and acknowledge that it's part of our context But to think about what we can do about those things. We can't just whinge about it We can't just sort of wave our hands and moan and say oh if only they would let us this is your responsibility and You know don't want to talk about Brexit, but this I think that this is quite a good tweet from the the vice-chancellor of DMU and what I like about this is this idea that there's a there's a fight here. Okay, I like the idea that You know, there are some things that you've just got to keep pushing against and that's and that's our responsibility is done It's saying This is that you know that there are certain tensions and unless we keep pushing against them You know, they were always going to be these problems, but we have to just keep pushing against them Peter writes really long sentences that you can only just fit on a slide. Yeah, so the point of this is That when we talk about teaching and learning We're talking about processes that we need to negotiate We're not talking about problems to solve and coming as I do from There's an awful lot of here's the thing we need to fix. What's the problem? What's the solution? That's not the situation that we're faced with these Significant and intractable tensions that Peter is writing about it's just the way things are so again We don't get to wish for this sort of and then when we fix that thing then we can do some real work This is part of the work that we have to do And there's you know, this is perhaps a way of extending that idea I think that sometimes I know Martin Welles in the past has written about the idea that education isn't broken And I think that that's a really useful starting point because the problem is if you decide there's a crisis in education If you decide that it's a problem, then you naturally start looking for a solution Okay, you can't you you can't despite the fact that I have heard these conversations in various institutions You can't solve teaching and learning. It's a set of practices. It's about people It's something that you just need to keep working at saying that you know Oh, we've got I don't know the state's management is good and the library citation system is good Now we've all we've got left to do is solve teaching and learning and we're going to be a really cracking institution It just doesn't work that way. It'd be a bit like saying We've solved physics or you know, we finished art, right? It just doesn't make any sense Occasionally, that's how our institutions and maybe occasionally that's how we think about it And as I say once you've framed it as something as a problem that you start looking for a solution And then you go to the technology to be a solution and everybody's disappointed So tech is not a solution. Tech is not the future Tech is here We are surrounded by technology so we can talk about whether or not it's evenly distributed and of course it's not But the normal that we exist in in the sector is one that has tech So so there's two things that we would like for people not to do anymore We would like for them not to say we have a problem in tech is a solution We would also like for them not to say we're struggling with something and then in the future Tech is going to come and do this or or tech is going to happen in the future being grounded in what's actually happening and Acknowledging that it involves tech is a big deal part of that present is what is tech doing and what we see technology doing in the sector is transposing bureaucratic processes into technology so there's an awful lot of talk about innovation There's an awful lot of talk about doing new things and expanding the notion of what education looks like But what we see an awful lot is just the transposition of bureaucracy into technology So institutions at an institutional level are taking and replicating themselves around this technology So so occasionally I feel like part of my job is actually technology enhanced administration You know and it doesn't actually feel like learning at all and I think I'm sure that many of us feel like that And we need to make sure that we do that we're doing more than that because You know otherwise You know institutions like to use technology to replicate what they already do you know So how do we push back against that? How do we do more than that? Yeah We need to keep this in mind right so tech is in the future and Digital is made of people I'll remind you when I'm an anthropologist and I would go further and say digital is an artifact This is a made thing Anything digital is shot through with the culture that it emanates from so you're not escaping from any of the society stuff That we've got by talking about digital. It's all integrated. So it's not an escape So sometimes I think I hear people having conversations about tech again Is the kind of salvation or is a way to get away from the problems that are inherent in being a person Well, so it's got that it's got that sorry to interrupt. No, you're not It's got that sometimes I think technology has that kind of futuriness to it So it's the thing that's going to solve all our problems But we haven't actually described what the problem is and as I was saying quite often it's not a problem so but it's a useful way of kind of Offsetting difficult decisions into the future sort of placing them in the technology and making technology responsible for that So I warned you that we were at the tree hugging end of kind of pedagogy and teaching and learning and this is something that I really believe in okay You know at certainly higher education needs to be more than just a stack of skills or you know consuming knowledge and I don't think I've ever mentioned that to anybody and they've disagreed with me Okay, but I I share this philosophy as I think you do too That some education is about becoming it's about the person. Okay, and that can that puts us in a difficult position Okay, that's quite a queasy thing in some ways but I think if you if you thought about your institution you imagine a Student coming in first year under undergrad and then when they leave the institution after three or four years I'm sure all of us would hope that they've become a Different person more better greater however you want to say it is a value judgment But I think that we need to be honest about this So somebody came somebody came to me with an interesting question. They said well, I was talking about assessment and they said It's it's ethical to assess somebody's work But it's not ethical to assess them as a person. Okay, we do not have the right as institutions to assess The the characteristics or the value of the person only of their work now I work in a creative arts institution You can't separate out the work in the person Okay, and I'd argue that across the whole of the higher education sector We do actually assess the person the becoming of the person. We're just a bit disingenuous about it We pretend we're not but a lot of what we do is that and I feel like we need to be honest about that and We need to be honest that higher education is about becoming Okay, and the digital is one of the places where that becoming happens So but part of the queasiness there is that then you're having to disassociate the work of education from any disciplinary home Right, so if you focus on the process as you say this is about what you are who you are as a human being This is about the processes that you engage in this is about the network you build That feels a lot less grounded But what's nice is that we actually see people envisioning that as a part of their educational process So we have people map their practices as we do in a variety of contexts and the reason that we like this map and we show it in a lot of our presentations is Because this person has mapped their practice as they do it But they've also mapped the practice that they would like to be engaging in they have mapped with this lovely pink bubble here Ideal self not real, but would like to be so so this map marked a moment where we could have a Conversation with this student about the kinds of things that she wanted to do to become the sort of engaged scholar That she saw herself being and I wonder how many moments we actually provide Aside from what's your major course of study going to be and what are you going to do when you get that degree? Those don't actually count as reflexive moments Those are sort of predictions of fixed points in time and this is about process Well also is he is worth pointing out that this is an entirely digital I mean this is a digital mapping process so so by just by mapping their engagement with the digital environment They're actually talking about the sort of person they want to become okay, and we've done we've done some Workshops with students at my place and you know the students go away from it The most encouraging thing I've heard is students feedback and they say well I went back to my course and I decided that I do the presentation for the group because I now feel like I'm the Sort of person that can do that Okay, that's an example of what I'm talking about Okay, I put together this slide We had an argument about whether it represented a piece of religious iconography. I claimed it didn't Donna claimed it did I twisted it ever so slightly you know rotate it slightly so perhaps it doesn't you make your own mind up It certainly wasn't the intention. Anyway, the point is moving on swiftly. Yeah, we all love these triangles Okay, we all love these kind of I don't know what you call them They're kind of like progression triangles and you probably spot some of the ones that that you know here my favorite one there Which is at the bottom is Mars Lowe's hierarchy of hats if you can read that upside down Self-actualization eccentric velvety hats Which does work actually if you look closely at the world that that does work I think that I think that these can be very very useful and certainly this one. I've found really useful which is Beesam and sharp and this is around sort of digital You know, what's important here is that? Is it really a progression? That's the question. I Think sometimes we can con ourselves into thinking or what we need to do is we get access and awareness Right and then we'll do the skills and then that will be a stepping stone up to practices And then that will be a stepping stone up to identity But I think this is just a redrawing of those things that people don't draw anymore Because they've been told they can't do it where you have the line going straight up, right? That there's this unilineal progression and you're all you're going to go from barbarism to Civilization and that's your goal and it feels it feels like there's a goal up there and everybody should pass through these things and also Yeah, and once you get from one to the other and there's arrows, you know And there's a certain amount of directionality and no matter how much people talk about it being iterative and all these sorts of things There's still this sort of suggestion that once once you wrangle the one thing then the other thing follows And that's just not the way things happen so So we sort of point out that actually there's a there's a dividing line across this kind of a diagram and That the what the bottom of what goes on at the bottom in terms of access and awareness and skills tends to be fairly Technology focused and it's absolutely crucial and really really important. Okay, you can't really Talk about the top of the triangle without the bottom of the triangle. Although it isn't a linear progression That the difficulty here is that as we say one doesn't lead to the other But also the top of the triangle is what falls away unless you keep fighting for it Okay, so we're talking about fighting for things a few slides ago If you leave the top of the triangle alone because of the way the institutional culture is Especially around the digital and he learning things like that Then the top of the triangle slowly collapses and everything becomes the bottom of the triangle I think that this is exacerbated by things like NSS and the sort of focus on the student experience Okay, so if you are if you ask a student what they want then they won't say I don't know, you know problem-based learning pedagogy with Pogotsky and scaffolding so that I can have Ontological progress, they're not gonna say that right. Yeah, what they're gonna say is can we have faster Wi-Fi? Because because that's the way that you frame the question Okay, so what that does is it keeps you in this this this loop at the bottom of the triangle I think there's another there's another challenge here as well, and I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about There's sort of two cultures represented here the the culture within the institution Which is largely concerned with the bottom of the triangle Wait, what you need to say what you mean by the bottom of the triangle here We're talking about infrastructure right we're talking about what systems do you have and how do you make them work? And what kinds of resources that you're putting into these systems? Yeah, yeah, but we're also talking about the idea of Training so when you approach technology instead of necessarily saying what are we trying to achieve with this technology? You say we're gonna put on a training session that Teaches you how to use X system, but we're not gonna have a discussion as to why you might want to use And what you want to use it for and we saw that a lot here Right, I mean there's an awful lot of sessions that happen at all that are this is a system that we use And this is how we use it or talking about those sessions that you give to your teaching staff about this is how you use the system so so those things happen and That's the stuff that's located down at the bottom and and then the identity practice piece May or may not be and usually isn't being done by that same team the other thing And this is something that came out in the first debate that Dave and I ever did where we talked about I'm moving closer to you. Oh, okay. I was a little alarm. Yeah Stay in your lane, man When we talk about learning systems, right and and we say things like you shouldn't have to do all this stuff, you know VLE is a And People ask the question how do you scale stuff if you're not going to do that in digital? How do you scale? I have 300 students. I have 500 students. I have a thousand students. I want to scale it You know where scale happens scale happens in the bottom of the triangle Top of the triangle can scale to a point but then at some point it tops out and The factor of scaling is an equivalent So maybe you get seven times as many students if you have your infrastructure and your digital But you're not necessarily going to get seven times more identity and practice stuff stuck into there. It's not equivalent It's not the same. It's not the same kind of work But if we come back to the teaching and learning con sort of context Then and you look at this kind of triangle Then you know where the kind of becoming stuff happens, right? It doesn't come from the access in the skills. Okay, you don't become by piling up a set of skills It happens in the top of the triangle But that and that's what we that's what we need to push for but just to be super clear about this Please be clear. We are we are not saying that the stuff that goes on in the bottom of the triangle isn't absolutely crucial We're just saying that the top of the triangle has to be Advocated for because that's the more ephemeral part you get down in the weeds and making sure your systems work And then you may or may not have the bandwidth of the resources to talk about all of the identity becoming stuff It's somebody else's problem. Who else is going to do that? So this gap is also a gap in whose job is it whose work is it to connect the top and the bottom of the triangle And I think the one of the challenges when we get down in the weeds of digital and infrastructure Is is that we encounter? Digital at an institutional level as as we said something that that replicates the sort of Dehumanizing characteristics of institutions generally institutions are not known for facilitating Individuality and humanity so we shouldn't actually be surprised when people perceive and encounter digital as some kind of seamless inhuman thing Because bureaucracy is seamless and inhuman So if what we've done is reproduce our bureaucracy in digital form It shouldn't surprise us at all that it's simply amplified with the digital in the same way that so many complicated things Get boosted when you transpose it into digital bureaucracies not any different people want other people So what we see in institutional situations is people encountering the seamless bureaucracy in the digital and Then going outside of the institution to find people So when any number of people lament where our students? Why aren't they talking to each other in the system that we have built for the institution? There's a reason for that. They don't perceive Institutional systems to be humane and the fact is they're not built to be humane. This is our problem Yeah, but I don't know whether that's a failing necessarily because it's not like the institution necessarily owns the pub Some of them do I mean what we're not we're not saying. Well, it's our job to provide all of those informal spaces So if we have decided as I think we did right go on that Teaching and learning is a human process and that we should take some responsibility for that becoming peace We don't then get to say these institutions, but do all that other stuff over there So if the problem is that institutions are inhumane the solution is not to tell people to go be human somewhere else You make a good point. Yeah It's so fine We don't have to as institutions we don't have to own all of those spaces No, no, but we need to we need to be honest about the fact that they exist And we need to find ways of engaging with them But what we don't want to do is jump into Facebook and go hey kids No, because that's the creepy creepy house. Yeah, weirdly that's been proven to not work Yes, I will agree with you. However, there we go. That's one or there are there are ways of being human within your institutions We can't tell you all of those ways. We can suggest that it's actually our job to think about what that would look like and it is important for us to respond constructively to the very real perception that people have that Digital at an institutional level is something that is seamless and contained and not necessarily something that involves people Yeah, and I struggle with the idea of when when you hear that idea Well, we just want the technology to be intuitive, which means I don't want to think about it It's sort of mean we just want it to be completely transparent I quite like the idea that some of the technology we might employ to operate at the top of the triangle actually makes people's jobs more challenging But better, you know But that's a very very weird thing to do because culturally the whole point of technology is that it takes effort away Is that it makes things more efficient? So if you go to people and say hey, I'm the guy with the technology It's gonna make your life harder, but you'll be you'll be better for it. That's that is a tough sell Yeah, but in actual fact That's what we're asking so if we're honest. We're trying to have it both ways, right? So we're trying to say, you know your systems are are seamless and inhuman and people don't necessarily want to engage with them as people But there is a place for those sorts of systems, right? Those are the kinds of systems that people want to not suck So you have the systems that run basic stuff and you want this to work and this is the bottom of the triangle stuff It's important, but then there's other things that are happening that have to do with technology Now, I know you didn't mean it, right? But you use the word basic There's not basic fundamental. It's really difficult to get that stuff to work. Well, fundamental. Yeah, fundamental Fundamental is better. No, just that's for all the technologists. In the notes, this is the part where it says shut up Dave Yeah, oh yeah, it does that's all it says in the notes at this point So I Have been talking about it in terms of a problem and that is contradicting what we said about please don't think in terms of problems But I think that institutions like universities and colleges and higher education generally have a problem with engagement around the digital in the digital in the digital around the digital through the digital with the digital Yeah, all of that stuff. Yeah, I think this is a solution. I Think that if we Carefully mindfully practice things think things that make it clear that we are human Indigital as well as in face-to-face spaces. This is part of the solution to the problem So what do we mean by human? Messy imperfect accessible not knowing all the things and It's also problematic because being human in society means that all of these difficult structural power prejudice Problems follow us onto digital. So again digital is not an escape We're not getting away from any of this stuff by transposing it into the digital It all follows us in if we've got sexism in society. We've got sexism online. We've got racism in society We've got racism online. So we don't get to start from zero with this So this is this is the queasy part right, but this is the part because the because you know Universities are just full of people and I know that I know That there are certain colleagues who would find it much easier to run the institution The students didn't turn up if you sort of mean sometimes it just seems like Oh, this place would run perfectly if it wasn't for those guys I though I had a guy who ran IT in this was years ago He had the best working most smooth computer lab in the whole institution Because he locked the door and didn't let anybody in for the whole term and I said well, that's not very useful He went yeah, but it runs so well runs really well Well, and that's the whole you know Everything's marvelous in the summer when the students are gone right and then they come back and then you have to fight But it is about people and it is messy and you can't Bureaucratize if that's a word your way out of that. We've just got to be honest about this now unfortunately The who's the correct human is an interesting one. You might seem to this just such that I did You know that our institutions were built for pretty much one identity and this is this is basically it Okay, you'll see that's pretty homogenous It's it's close to me Okay, I'll be honest. I might go gray soon. That'll be good. I'll ask for a pay rise the probably will actually and So it's probably relatively straightforward for me because I do fit the system So when we say be human we want to be honest about this and I think Josie was alluding to this is you know Who gets to decide who's the right kind of human to be you know to be involved? So for me I kind of fit quite well. Mm-hmm. It's a little bit more difficult for you because of your So so what I love I was gonna say hair color But then I realized that was bad as well So there's no good answer to that. So so this is not new right? You guys all know this You know that who you are affects how you are dealt with in institutional situations higher education is no Exception and so the fact is Dave has had people come up to him and call him Dr. White and ask him the easiest way to get a PhD by the way It's just to get yourself into a position where people assume you've got a PhD. Yeah, that is much less work involved So so dude dude in a Tweety jacket becomes dr. White and and you've said this to me people come up and say where's your book? Can I I'd love to I haven't written a book. It's not people assume I've written a book which means that like within my institutional culture That's almost as good as having written a book because even if I write one nobody will read it So on the other hand I have recently been on a stage where I was with three other people I Was the one with PhD I? Did not have a title by my name on any of the literature for that particular event So it was professor this and doctor that and Donna That's not an accident That's academia. So male And I'm just a white girl, right? So I'm not bringing a whole lot of diversity except for my gender and occasionally my nationality And the fact is difficult to pronounce your surname. Yeah, so you know So so these These things reflect the fact that our systems were built for people like Dave, right? So if you're gonna be successful in that system and you're already somebody like Dave It's gonna be relatively easy and seamless to plug yourself into that as soon as you are not that person You have to make a much stronger argument To be seen as an academic. So this is hashtag. I look like a professor who's seen that on Twitter where? Women of color men of color People who don't wear tweed jackets, you know Anybody who looks different than this Google search and we will note that there is one black guy and there's one woman But for the most part all blackboards those no Yeah, and I love the way that we culturally think about higher education I did search for students and it was all really attractive teenage girls all holding books or no paper I know like laptops or anything. That's an aside. I did ask you not Okay, carry on So so so again, you know humanity has problems This is evidence of prejudice and a very particular power structure that is reproduced in our University so if we want our students to find their way into universities We need to acknowledge that our universities were not necessarily built for all of our students So and that plays out in the digital really it was important here Is that we're not although we're at the tree hugging end of teaching and learning We're not pretending that all you've got to do is go out there and be an authentic human being and everything's wonderful in the digital It's complex and it's messy, which is one of the things that makes it difficult So because we now actually have all these different people in academia Even though we've got we've still got this sort of fossilized model of what an academic is right but we do we have all sorts of different kinds of people at University a variety of different ages a variety of different ethnicities a variety of different family situations So, you know it used to be that if you had children You weren't the one taking care of them And so it was fine for you to go off and do university stuff as with anything else, right? So so all of these assumptions all of these sort of you know white male heteronormative assumptions about who's in academia in practice are no longer the case but If you are one of these non-white People non-male people and you do something slightly unusual Institutionally because there's still institutional rules, right? This is the way you do things. This is how you publish This is how you present yourself professionally the word professional and again coming from my Professional context where I'm working in libraries. They use that word a lot and What they mean by professional is don't stick your head up What they mean by professional is don't draw attention to yourself. Don't be distinctive Well, if you are a black woman in a department full of white men you show up distinctive You're not doing anything. You are being a person who is not recognized as that norm So so this is what generally leads to people thinking about risk So which which then turns into well being risky is about breaking the rules But obviously depending on who you are that the risk factor shifts So it's less risky for me to break the rules and is for some other people Which is why I'm wearing these shoes and I do wear them to work And I think but also when you can walk around I Where you walk in a city is Not where I would walk in a city, right? So there are lived experience really sort of material implications to risk that we don't get to dismiss But we and I think but what? What we're saying here is that perhaps risk isn't the most helpful way of looking at these things Okay, certainly not in terms of an institutional context where risk tends to be are you breaking the rules or not? I think what I'm interested in relative to this is is really how we can kind of Push back against that that way of thinking I think one of the approaches is to think in terms of openness and this has come up at the conference before okay Is to try and create so we talk about risk in a slightly different way We talk about it in terms of vulnerability is I think it's our responsibility if we're in certainly if we're in a teaching related role Is to create a culture where students and staff feel like they can be open They feel like they can share things perhaps before they're finished. Okay, they feel like They're going to be supported that they're part of a network Okay, so it's this idea of open practice and obviously this is where the digital comes back in again now to me That's teaching okay the glue that holds this together all of this together is just really good teaching So if you think that teaching is about equipping your students with filling your students heads with knowledge or equipping them with skills or Just packing them with a particular discipline. That's sort of not what I'm talking about I'm talking about the becoming end of teaching again Okay, and I think the way that we that needs to play out if we want to be in the top of it if we want to advocate for the top of the triangle in and around digital is this idea of being more open and Part of that is being more human, but that doesn't necessarily mean breaking institutional rules It just means being more honest about the process about the way that you work Modeling the fact that sometimes it takes you a couple of times to get something right Revealing the process of what you do and encouraging the people around you whether that's other staff or other students to reveal that Process themselves right generating that culture. So the caveat is because sometimes we talk about openness and we talk about Semenis and things like that. We want our students To to be to see a way in and the shortcut to that too often is so you're gonna talk about your personal life Right, you're gonna talk about some personal thing that that that then allows students to see you as a human being where humanity gets reduced to Personal life and as we said there are people who show up vulnerable who show up with their personal life written on them because they're a Woman because they are not a white dude and and nobody owes you Their personal story But you owe your students a way in to your practice as an academic your students owe each other Transparency and the ways that they're trying to find their way through the university So that's what we mean by openness if we've got all of these different people together And we're sharing process and we're putting stuff in Google Docs And it's a shitty rough draft and we're not Saying bad things to people because of that because we don't want the seamless PDF at the end We want the stuff that gets us to the product that then is what we're going to base the rest of our work on So it's not just about us saying hey This is what I do but structuring the work of the university to be much more about the rough draft So so and so whether so some of you might be in teaching related roles. Some of you might be more directly engaged with the technology Whatever your role in this room It's it's part of your responsibility. I think it's part of our responsibility to Fight for the top of the triangle to keep bringing that up and even if you feel like you're never invited to the rooms Where that conversation takes place? I think you should try and find a way into the room Or just start those conversations for yourself. You are privileged. Okay, you've got to alt You must be privileged. All right It's not you know it costs money to get here if you're in this room You're in a privileged position is very easy to imagine to sort of say oh well, you know We're not the people that make those decisions. Yeah, and there's no them, right? So they won't let us is not legitimate Because and you and you are the institution I mean we keep throughout this talk We've been speaking about the institution as if it was some kind of a morphous thing that exists without people You know we make up our institution Okay, when I see people as Twitter buyers and they say not not the opinion You know not the opinions of my employer I'm like but you're part you you make up that institution So the things you think are what your institution thinks because you're part of the institution Yeah, and we have to own that most yeah, so if we're pointing fingers and saying they won't and we can't because they won't We're part of the problem So I get tired in a library context and an ed tech conference and in any of these contexts where people say well I want to have that conversation about pedagogy, but it's happening over there I don't care if you're not invited into that room It is your responsibility to find out where there's a door into that room And if there are only walls around that room make your own room But it can't just be a well That's not my job. You could even use the web to have that conversation. Yeah, obviously we're part of that all the time So that Little fight there we knew that was gonna happen only at the end that is where we'd like to finish. Thank you So we left ten minutes for questions seven minutes Again, you know you guys are tired so We don't have to take questions. Yeah, so has anybody got any questions for Dave and Anna? I'm enjoying this taking the microphone off Dave Because I know he wants it so much has anyone you got any questions? Is that one at the back? Oh, yes, they laid it back there We have the roving mics coming to you. Hi I'd first of all just like to come out as a Welsh female professor of learning and teaching Excellent I know Yes, I'm sure we're all the majority of us actually are probably part of a minority if we think about it carefully enough But just to ask you this I mean There's so many institutional Imperatives to comply with things like the nss to improve retention Progression and all the rest of it Is there a tension there with getting to the top of the triangle thinking about things like innovations in the use of technology? How you know some of my staff are really scared to take a risk with stuff in case it affects NSS and stuff like that How do you square those things you think I get it? The NSS is such a problem and we've got an equivalent in the US of all these student satisfaction surveys and the the notion That I see around the NSS is you know the students aren't happy And the solutions tend to be around the let's make our systems more reliable Let's make sure that they don't complain about the Wi-Fi You know one of the things that tanks people's nss scores is actually construction on campus Which is weird because you're actively trying to improve the physical situation of the university But it's but it's inconvenient and they don't see the point of it So I think that there's potential for top of the triangle stuff around capabilities and engagement and getting students to to be reflective about Why it is they're doing what they're doing and how that can actually travel with them has potential to do it But you mentioned risk. This is something that institutions have to be willing to do and if all they do is reduce University to attending class and having systems that work. Well You're kind of stuck and so I so again I think it's our role to advocate for that other stuff and try to move the conversation So it's not about oh, it's risky. It might not work, but if it doesn't work, then you do something else So so my answer is yes, if you can remember your question there is a tension and We and I think that again coming back on that kind of problem solution problem if you like These I tend to see these things as tensions to be negotiated So you admit that there's a tension, but you just do what you can to push it in a particular direction You're never going to solve that problem. It's fundamental to the way that institutions work You're never going to make that go away, but that doesn't mean that you can't push it in a certain direction I think you know the triangle can be misleading because as we were saying it makes it sound like well We'll sort out our NSS score and then we'll do the more esoteric stuff My opinion is you just you have to do them in parallel You have to do both because you'll never get out of those bottom rungs on that basis So I think having the confidence to be sorting out The bottom of the triangle, but also be working on the top and not imagining that one's a platform to the other I think it's one way of looking at it institutionally Do we say out loud that they should be parallel processes like we I just don't we want to yeah Maybe we did so so so the the idea that you you get it all fixed and then you can do the the think he works Yeah, the fancy stuff. That's not fancy stuff. It's fundamental It's all fundamental the top of the triangles fundamental bottom of the triangles fundamental We need a different shape tired to talk about triangles That's why it's I think it's really helpful that the new version of the JISC Digital capabilities which Helen also worked on is a collection of circles because it's not it's not a hierarchy And I think that's a really with well-being around it I really like that because I think it just point out that there are just these areas of practice and that they don't necessarily stack Great, how much time have we got left? But time for one more question if anybody's got a burning question before we finish Okay, well Dave and Donna will be around for the remainder of the conference if you want to grab them So can you please join me in thanking them both for that Okay, we'll try to do this without the crew We just wanted to take this opportunity to Say a really really big. Thank you to everybody who's been here who's joined in the conference And it has been absolutely amazing from our point of view. We've had such a good time And I hope everybody else has enjoyed it too But we did want to say just a few personal. Thank yous before we hand over to the chairs for next year first of all Tomorrow and to everybody on the old team who have made this just perfect work smoothly and made it really fun and enjoyable So please could you all thank mine and the old team? And we just like to say a special thank you to Rosie and Sam who came and ran the game and all the engagement Activities that you've been experiencing as well. So I thank you for those two And as well to everybody who's been on the program committee who's reviewed who's chaired Who's been involved in supporting the conference as well. We absolutely couldn't do that without you. So thank you very much to everybody And finally, thanks to everyone who presented who came who sat you drank coffee who drank beer who ran out of beer all those people Thank you very much for coming. It's been an absolutely fantastic experience. So well done everyone And now it's my great pleasure to you as well We mustn't forget them too if you can put your hands together for Alec and Nick as well And Now it's our great pleasure to be part of the great big reveal and to hand over to the chairs for Altsea 2017 Where they are? So well the first thing to say is that We haven't got a hope of being as entertaining a double-act as you've just seen so I hope you all bear with us on that So we are the the chairs of next year's conference and next year's conference is going to be at Liverpool So I'm just going to start we're just going to start by introducing ourselves And then I'm going to say a little bit about why we wanted to have the conference at Liverpool and why you should come to Liverpool and then we're going to talk a little bit about what we hope to achieve with the conference. So I should start with me I'm Helen O'Sullivan and I'm Associate Pro Vice-Chancellor for online learning at the University of Liverpool And my role is to be responsible for online learning and to generally promote technology enhanced learning and and sort all of that out So I'm Peter Olson, I'm a lecturer in learning technology in the School of Life Sciences also at the University of Liverpool and Yeah So why did we want to have the conference at Liverpool? Well, it's a really It's a really important time in our development at Liverpool University. We've just launched a Strategy earlier this year, which was a 10-year strategy and we're just starting to implement the education past that strategy although I feel after the last thought that I need to go back and rewrite quite a lot of that but We're starting to implement that and online learning and Technology enhanced learning and innovation is a really key part of that strategy So what we're hoping to do and we're going to aim to make the conference a really key part of our strategic support for learning technology and learning technologies and Innovation and and make it part of our sort of community of practice for the next year So I'm absolutely thrilled that we're to bring it to Liverpool and and do that So why should you come to Liverpool? Well, Liverpool is fantastic city of in terms of heritage and culture architecture hospitality and shopping So it's not just about the Beatles and football Although if you're really passionate about the Beatles and football it is a fantastic place to come So Liverpool's a very compact city So even if you're only able to to come to Liverpool for a short period of time You're able to wander around soak up the atmosphere Feel part of the culture see the architecture and really enjoy the city and most of all what you get at Liverpool Is a really warm and friendly welcome? So I'll look forward to seeing you all next year in Liverpool over to you. Okay. Thanks Helen And I just like to talk about what we We kind of a little bit of a discussion about build on what from Helen saying about where there's a really big change going on There's a Liverpool and this is about really happy or ecstatic that we could bring the conference to Liverpool Just so we can kind of get some of these ideas kind of feeding it back at a more local level and the themes That we've kind of hoping to kind of get something around a kind of reflecting in some of the things that we've been working on Liverpool, but it's also things we see evidence at lots of presentations that I go to particularly also over the past few years and Also thinking about ahead of time as well So we've got empowering and learning technology think about learning spaces moving from the practical to the publishable The forefront of innovation and then we've kind of got this wild card Again as we have the same here. So what we're kind of thinking about is just load up his notes just a double check One of the things we want to do is really explore this kind of the relationship between grassroots innovation and Strategic whole institution initiatives We've often seen a lot of time where people are working in isolation doing their own little projects, which are fantastic People for a lot of time and effort into it and I think about the problem we were saying about scalable How do we move up from that? How do we get to that next step where I've got an innovation that works for 20 students But then I have a class of 400. How does it actually work? Where do I even need to start? So we're trying to think about what are the kind of the aspects that we need to think about in order to kind of get that Small-scale innovation up to the wider impact where it can impact kind of the many rather than just the few We also want to encourage participants to think about the kind of the next step as well So again, you think about your presenting here and it's working You take your kind of ideas from then against linked into the kind of the wider idea of How you can make the mass-scale Innovation is to kind of think about publication and where you might take your ideas from there on and getting your ideas You're kind of own ideas further afield and how you can kind of Impact on that and again, it's this idea of again thinking about Innovation and rather than doing things in isolation Can you join it with other people? Can you join together in the older projects that kind of work on the same thing and build up that kind of community of practice To help each other and again it thinks about one of the things I'm really passionate about in a minute And that's what I'm kind of doing my research in is about policy and about practice and how we can actually impact on that You were talking David. No, we're talking about the kind of them as the institution I would argue there is a then particularly in my position, but I'm kind of low down on the food chain and a skill That our them is Helen at Liverpool and I would argue there is a then And to that we have to influence and we're very lucky at Liverpool We have someone like Helen who's really passionate about technology enhanced learning I don't know that's in such a high position within the university And I know that's not evidence everywhere else So we do have that kind of avenue that we can get in to make this happen But for me it's about this policy How can we influence those people at the top and make them see just what is going on and get people to change and to kind of move on And I say yeah, the themes we look forward to lots and lots of Submissions for next year and again, I just like to echo Helen So we're really looking forward to seeing everyone here as it's here now and everyone else That was here at work coming to Liverpool next year and sharing your ideas with us And at this point I'm going to pass you over to Maron Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you Helen And as you can see much excitement in store for next year We do Organised as conference with very few staff and an enormous army of volunteers And those of you still here will probably be those helping out So we hope very much that you can join the program committee for next year And share part of what we do I'm the first person to say hello to you and I get to be the last to say goodbye But before we all make our journey home and hopefully engage in fun travel treating twitter games And there are three people we haven't said thank you yet, and I would like to address that now I'm working behind the scenes as some of you will have seen on twitter as my colleague Martin Hawksy who's overseeing the live streaming delivery and online Social media side of things But we've had three volunteers who've really helped amplify the voice of our community over the last three days Beyond what we could achieve otherwise One of them has joined us as a volunteer from the college development network in scotland Please put your hands together for kanji lamb who's our cameraman And also um indispensable to us particularly if you're following old sea on twitter at the moment Is laura cambal laura if you want to give a wave and also rich goodman who's been tweeting for us doing all the pictures I've got some presents for you here as well And there's only one last message which might not surprise you But we really hope that this conference if it's your first one if you haven't joined us for a few years has shown you That being engaged in our community isn't just for three days of the year, but it's every time You're looking to network to share And also to address some of the big issues that we've raised I've been quite impressed how far reaching we think now about the conceptual framework of learning technology Anything from equality and diversity to how to be a human being And how to help generations that we can have an impact on in their development So as you might expect from the chief executive of the association my parting message is that if you haven't already joined Please consider it And we wish you a safe journey and thank you very much for making these three days as exciting as they have been Thank you