 Well, welcome, everyone, to tonight's smart guest lecture. And tonight, we have Linda Mueller, who is a Certified Records Manager and newly in Information and Governance Professional speaking to us tonight about approaching process improvement through a RIM assessment. And rather than take more time describing Linda, I know she's had a slide in her slide deck here that will tell us a little more about her. So, I'm going to turn the mic right over to Linda now. Linda? I really didn't want this to be really very formal. I would really like to have some discussion. I think it's kind of neat the way Pat has this set up so that everyone can contribute ideas and your own experiences. So, tonight, I'm going to talk a little bit about my experience and what I've been doing over the last 20 some odd years. So, let's see if I can't figure out how to advance this. Woo! There we go. Here's a little bit about my background just to kind of set the stage. As Pat said, I am a Certified Records Manager and I am an Information Governance Professional. And I'm also certified by AIM. In Electronic Records Management. I actually got my start a number of years ago at Vincent and Elkins. It's a law firm. My legal records management experience is really where I started years ago. From there, and you can see the three law firms that I worked for, I also spent two years with PricewaterhouseCoopers and got involved in a very interesting project working with the tax practitioners and actually moving them from a very paper-based work environment to electronic records. So, that was kind of an interesting project. I've also done some consulting. So, after I've worked with attorneys for long enough, I decided that I wanted to kind of take everything that I've done, everything I've learned and kind of share it as a consultant. And I started with Pitney Bowes and this goes back, oh, maybe 12 years or so. But the last year and a half with Pitney, I actually spent in Europe. I was based in London doing some consulting in the Republic of Ireland and also over in Brussels. So, a little bit of experience all over the place. So, I wanted to share that with you. One of the things I wanted to talk about tonight is, you know, we hear so much now about information governance and I'm sure all of you know exactly what I'm talking about. But here's a slide that I wanted to share with you. I do this information governance as a new strategic plan that we need to really talk up within our organizations and help executive sponsors to understand what information governance is. So, that they will be more apt to sponsor the policies and procedures that manage the organization from a holistic view. So, not necessarily siloed by department or by function, but the entire organization because so much of what we do and what we talk about in information governance is across all borders and oftentimes, you know, I've talked with people and they say, but you know what, it sounds so massive. It sounds so intimidating. Where do you begin? How do we get over this paralysis to actually start kind of studying information governance and making those changes? And that's what I'm going to talk about tonight. This is the tool that I have used for the last 12, 15 years as a consultant and I'm calling it a RIM analysis. Pretty simple, but I'm going to actually show you some of the hints, some of the tips and tricks that I've learned over the years and perhaps you'll pick up something that you'll be able to share with your organizations either today or as you finish up your classes with Pat and move on into with your career. So, let's take a look at this. As we work through a records management analysis, there's some interesting things that we may uncover. Procedural inconsistencies, where the organization may think that they're in compliance or that they have all of the policies and procedures because everything seems to be working just fine. We've been doing this way for a number of years and we seem to be fine. Lack of policy. In fact, I met with a records manager not too long ago and he was insistent that he had the most perfect records program and he probably did except he was missing one thing. He didn't have a policy. So, there were really no teeth, there were no guidelines. He had a schedule, he had, you know, some procedures, but no policy. No mandate from the organization that said, this is something that the corporation requires everyone to be involved with. Underutilized technology. Here is another big area where we often see corporations will invest in and make capital investments in technology thinking that once they've spent all this money, now all of a sudden they're not going to have any missing files. They're not going to, they're not going to have anything that they can't retrieve quickly. Unfortunately, the problem is what I have seen, oftentimes vendors will go in and sell the technology with no process orientation. So, another area that we may uncover during that RIM analysis. Personal preferences over the enterprise wide mandates. And this is another area that I find especially in law firms, attorneys and those tax practitioners at PwC as well. You know, I've been doing it this way for my entire career. This is the way I like to do it. The problem with that, it works well for an individual, but it doesn't necessarily work well for the entire organization, whether it's a law firm, whether it's a corporation. We need to try to talk to our executive sponsors about information governance and how enterprise wide mandates are really important. And then lastly, the ineffective use of company resources. How often we talk to professionals and we drill down and we find out that the dollars that are being spent and kind of wasted ineffectively on records management. So, all of these things are uncovered through a records management analysis. In order to get started, and this is the chart, I think that Pat was referring to that you have as an attachment to these slides. I wanted to just kind of run through this quickly because this is kind of like what I use as my structure and this is what I use as my format, kind of what I would call a project plan. So, the first thing when you start a records analysis is to assign roles and responsibilities. Who's going to do what? Who's responsible for what? And that's you as a consultant or the records manager, but also those people that are assisting you. What are they responsible for? What are they going to be doing as part of this project? And what is in scope and what's out of scope? So, are you going to be looking as part of this analysis? Are you looking at all the departments or just a few departments? It's really important that you understand the scope of the project. The first step has been gathering documentation that will help you build information. Things like floor plans that has identified storage areas or vaults or shredders. Anything having to do with records management. Where are the, where is information stored and how is it accessed? The next thing is the walkabout. And I know this sounds rather simple, but it's really amazing if you'll just walk through an organization and take a look at, as you're walking through, look at the desk. Is there a lot of paper around? Are there boxes sitting around? Are people scurrying about looking for things? Are desks absolutely clean? So, what do you see in the conference rooms? Are they stacked with paper and storage areas or are they clean? Can you actually go in there and have a meeting? The next item is photographs. And I liked, as a consultant, I like to use a lot of photographs because I believe that a picture tells a thousand words. And I use photographs in my reports, I use them in all of my deliverables. And so, as I'm walking around the organization, I'm taking photos of things that might be very mundane, but, yeah, they're going to tell a story and they'll help validate my report. One-on-one interviews. Although I love to do focus groups, there are times when people are not available to sit down in a group setting. So, then I'll go and meet with them one-on-one. It could be a 10-minute, 15-minute interview. I always prepare questions ahead of time. So, I'm not walking in to someone's office with, you know, just a blank piece of paper. I always like to have some questions. I always like to think, okay, what do I want to walk away from this interview from? What am I going to learn? What do I need to learn from this interview that will help me then build my deliverable, which is basically a findings report? The focus groups, I think, are really important for a lot of different reasons. Getting a dynamic conversation going, I think, is really important. And I divide my focus groups into four different levels. First of all, the organization leadership, whether it's the executive committee, the C-suite folks at the executive level. Next one, major stakeholders. So, in a law firm, that would be the practice heads, so the head of litigation, the head of intellectual property, the head of tax. I get all of these folks into a room. The next focus groups are the secretaries, putting all the secretaries into a conference room and sitting there and discussing questions about records, about information, about information compliance. And then lastly, the record staff, getting their input. They're the people, they're the worker bees. Those are the folks that are seeing the program from the ground up. So, it's really a great idea to include them in a focus group as well. So, what I typically do is get these folks together in four different separate groups. And it's really interesting when you start asking questions, the dialogue, and they kind of feed off of each other. I've had a lot of people say to me, oh, I had no idea, you know, I had no idea that this other department was doing so and so, or, you know, they didn't have access to this. Or, gee, we need to share this, you know, more openly or whatever. So, the conversations are great in these focus groups, and you really do learn a lot. Then, as part of my records analysis, there are two deliverables. Number one is the findings. And this is basically a summary of what I learned. All of the facts, all of the data, all of the conversations summed up into a finding to report. The second deliverable is the recommendations and best practices. Based on the findings, here are the recommendations and best practices that we're bringing forward. And I think those two deliverables really can go a long way in terms of understanding information governance and what process improvements can be made. So, that's a little bit about how I go about doing a RIM analysis. A couple of other just tips and tricks. Developing the findings report, and as I said, this is deliverable number one. I think it's really important to stick to the facts and the project objectives. You know, when we're talking about records management, we oftentimes, and technology, too, we oftentimes want to just jump right into the solutions. Oh, you should be doing this. You should be doing that. We could implement this. We can bring this in. We can, you know, connect and integrate with this other system. But as part of the findings report, you really want to stay clear of the solutions at that point. All we're doing is we're listening to the voice of the customer. We're understanding the current state, and we're summarizing what we've learned through all of the focus groups. I think it's really interesting to collect some quotes. So, as you're talking to the executive director or the vice president of an organization, and he says something in particular that kind of catches your eye, try to note that down so that you can use that in your report and put his name to it with a date. I mean, one of the things that we're looking for, too, when we're going through and doing this preparing for this findings report is we're looking for policy gaps. We know that as an information professional, you know, that they've got to have policies. There have to be procedures. And where are the gaps, and how can we identify what might be missing? Taking a look at the data collected and the calculations. The cost information. And then, most importantly, a summary. You know, trying to sum all of this information up so that you can come back to the organization and say, here's what I found. Here are the priorities. This is what I will base my recommendations on. And what we're trying to do at that point is get them to validate and say, yes. You heard it right. One of the things that I like to do is I say to the people that I'm meeting with, when I go over the findings report, I say, did I miss anything? Did I misinterpret anything? Is there anything that you think that I should add to the findings report that will add to the best practices and my recommendations? So, kind of trying to get them to buy into this as well, to be part of this project. Let's keep going here. So, deliverable number two, recommendations for process improvements. Developing the recommendations report is based on the findings report and the project scope. And then, I always try to blend in some industry trends. What's trending out there? In the industry, that that particular organization is a part of. So, if it's a healthcare organization, I try to go out and do some research and find out what's trending, what are the best practices, what makes some organizations more efficient, more effective with information management than others? So, kind of sharing all of that. Recommendations are designed to meet information governance objectives and, in summary, compliance, cost, and control. And, for those of you that are studying along these lines, you know that those three areas are really important to information governance. Things that we want to consider to our staffing, you know, who's doing the work, how are they trained, what is the business process, what does the workflow look like, what are the technology solutions that you're recommending as part of this business process improvement. And, certainly, we want to point out the benefits. What are the benefits to not only to the organization, but to those stakeholders that you talk to, what are the benefits to the secretaries? What are the benefits to the record staff? The value, are we going to save time, are we going to save cost, are we going to mitigate the risk, and what are the consequences of doing nothing? What are the consequences of making these changes? So, I think those are other considerations as we move forward with developing that recommendation to report to consider some of those issues. One of the things that I've done, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the GARP maturity model, but I'd certainly like to incorporate this as a measurement tool. I think one of the pieces that's really important for me is to use this as a way of talking to departments and to organizations about how they feel they measure up. And, you can see the five levels there, substandard, all the way to transformational. And, it's kind of interesting to get their input and then kind of give your feedback based on your experience and your training and education. I wanted to share this with you as well. You can go out to the AEM website and RICO is actually, which is my company, has actually co-branded a tool. It's an online self-assessment tool and you'll find it out on the AEM website. We use this tool with our customers and it could be with a department, it could be with a whole organization, it could be with an individual. But, you can go out and take a look at that. It's basically 15 questions. The questions are designed around measuring information governance. And, then once the person has answered these 15 questions, they can click a button and a two-page business case is produced. And, that business case helps them understand where they are within information governance. And, what are the steps that they need to take to be in better compliance. So, that's an interesting tool. If you can't find it, I can certainly give Path of the Link, but it is only on the AEM website. Some of the recommendations that I and some, you know, again, some of the points that I've used, use visuals. As I said, that's really important for me. I think they tell a compelling story. I mean, you can look at this picture here and, you know, I've got a story that goes with that. But, it helps to validate the situation. As I said before, I like to use visuals in my reports. And, we all carry around our cell phones, right? And, so on the phone, you've got a camera. So, it's real easy to just pop out your camera. And, of course, you want to ask for permission first before you start taking pictures. But, I have always found this to be very helpful. Recommendations on visuals, you can also show before and after something like this. Here's a typical workflow, you know, how do we create a record? And, the visual, when I use this type of a visual, I mean, I don't expect people to go step by step by step through this whole workflow. But, I just want them to get in their mind that there are a lot of touch points. There are a lot of steps to create a file and to retrieve a file. And then, hopefully, our next slide that we show them then is a little bit simpler, more streamlined, and they say, oh, wow, you cut out some people, you cut out some steps. So, again, the whole purpose here is to use those visuals. I think it goes a long way. Here's another tool that I've used over the years because, again, people will say to me, okay, you know what, this is all well and good. You did the findings report and you did a great summary of where we currently are. But, now what? How do I get from point A to point B? And, it's, again, it's a massive undertaking. It's where do we begin? And, how do I get there? So, one of the things that I found that's really important is to break it down into manageable chunks. And, I always start off with step one, step two, step three, step four. So, they can see within step one, there are some tasks. There are some people that we're going to touch. We're going to hire people. We are going to put systems in place. We're going to do an in-depth analysis in this particular area. We'll look at this area in step one. That's done. Step two, now we're going to do this. So, it kind of helps people understand within this whole information governance through the analysis, it shows them a roadmap of how we're going to implement those process improvements. So, just another tool can be very simply, simply done. Another tool that I've used that I think is very, very helpful are metrics with a couple of caveats. Metrics can be used very effectively because I love the way we establish a baseline, okay? So, we started on day one and this is where you were. Based on the findings, this is where your organization or this is where the department started. Now, within six months, this is where we are. In a year, we've gotten to this point. So, through metrics and by collecting metrics on productivity, who knows what it could be, you're able to show the numbers. So, the numbers help justify the new initiatives or the new process improvement that you're trying to make within information governance. A lot of people say, well, what is the return on investment? Can you really put that together? I mean, a lot of people try to say, well, within five years, if I invest X number of dollars and I have this legacy burden of records, you know, it's going to take me X number of years to really work through it, scan it all and then destroy it and it's going to cost me X number and putting the numbers together, but making it realistic. I think the other thing that is very important that I've found over the years is to actually interpret the numbers. So, if you see on the bottom, the second to the bottom line where I have warehouse boxes requested, we start out in April with two boxes and then we're jumped to 11 in May and then June is zero and then up to August we've got 59. So, there's something going on here within this organization. Something happened in June where there was zero. So, what I like to do where there's some type of trend going on, I like to put a little footnote and explain what that number means. What's going on within the organization in June? Well, everybody was on vacation or it was their fiscal year-end. So, nobody was doing anything with boxes in the warehouse. So, there are a lot of different ways to interpret the numbers and I think that numbers can be very helpful too. So, that's my summary. Hopefully, you found some of this helpful. I hope that you're able to take the RIM analysis outline and the structure and hopefully you'll be able to use all of it, maybe part of it, maybe a piece of it, maybe you heard something that I mentioned tonight that will resonate with you in your situation within your organization. Are there any questions? Before we get started, I was wondering if you could go back to the AIM slide. I couldn't find that. I was going to give them the link but I also, on that, wondered if you were involved in developing that at all on behalf of RECO? Yes. I was very much involved in developing that and we actually created the questions so they were customized for law firms because that's the department that I have been asked to really focus on first at RECO. So, Pat, I can get the link for you and email it to you and then you can send that out. Would that work? Yes. That would be fine. Thank you. And I'm going to have the recording for tonight be linked to that as well so I could send those both out. Okay. Okay, good. Suca says she thinks she found it. Look in the chat area. Oh-ho. Okay. Now I'm not sure if that's it but so have you also, I'm reading your email. Darn. And have you also discussed this with Armin? Yes. You know, and I'll tell you, this is very unfortunate. I feel like this was a missed opportunity and this is like my personal opinion here. I wish that AIM would have collaborated with ARMA because AIM assessment tool is not really based on the ARMA's GARP principles or practices. Right. It's just built on best practices. So, we're in the world. Let me just go back to something. I'm looking for the. Right. Yeah. And don't worry. We can always do this later too. Yeah. It's probably easier if I, let me just, no, I don't think this is it. See, the problem is so many of these are, this is outdated and it's hard for me to. Yeah. I'll send it to you. Does anybody else have any other questions? You're, you have the ear of a consultant who travels quite a bit, speaks a lot about legal issues, right, for law firms I should say. Yes. Heather. Okay. Take advantage of it. Right. Heather, go ahead. Hi. Yes. No. Thank you so much for your presentation and all of your insights based on all of your experiences. I had a quick question. You were talking about doing the walkthrough and speaking with people and companies to sort of find out what records management issues they're having. And I was just wondering, because you didn't touch on it, how do you go about inventorizing electronic records and emails and all of that digital-born stuff that's out there that you're going to have to deal with as well? Yeah. I mean, whenever we do an assessment or a RIM analysis, we have not really gone to the level that we're inventorying documents or emails. What we will do though is inventory drives, we'll inventory storage areas, storage locations, but we don't really go down to the document or the email level. So then follow up on Heather's question. We're looking at when doing your inventory, you do more of the inactive records, which would include the electronic inactive that might be stored elsewhere as opposed to the active records that are being used in business systems. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we'll do, and, you know, it's amazing how many, when you start asking people in these focus groups, where do you keep your information? It's amazing all the places where information is stashed. So we just try to create almost like a directory of, you know, where are all these stashes? Where is information kept? A real good resource is working with the IT group and collaborating with them during an assessment, because certainly on the electronic side, they're going to be a little bit more knowledgeable about, you know, where the servers are located, are they in multiple offices, are they off-site, are they on-site, are they backed up, what happens to the backup tapes, are they rotated, what happens to incremental backups? I mean, all of these questions kind of are asked during a RIM analysis. But, again, it's fairly high level. Do you ever ask them about the records in the cloud as well? We do. A lot of times, though, you'd be amazed, people don't know. They don't know, you know, and we'll say, are you storing any of your, you know, long-term preservation documents in the cloud? I don't know, you know, I don't know where they are. We just call IT. That would be something that we would talk about with the IT group. In law firms, we don't, they're just now starting to think about the cloud, unlike corporations, which I think have the leading edge on storage. But I think law firms are a little bit more reluctant to store electronic records outside of the firm. I could see that, and that makes a difference then. As you mentioned, you're working with law firms. Is that exclusively where you do these assessments? No, we've done assessments in many different organizations. My particular responsibility, though, is to manage the assessments that are done within law firms. But as an organization, we reach out across to other organizations, financial organizations, healthcare, higher education, corporate. We have another project that's ongoing for the federal government, and we're helping them evaluate. We have some technology projects and contracts with the federal government, and one of the things that they've done is they've come back to us, and they've said, you know, you're doing all this imaging, and you're digitizing all of our records, but now we really want to add on a records management component. And for me, it's like the light bulb goes off. They finally got it. There's a retention component. There's a compliance component. It's not just about taking the paper and digitizing it and adding in a technology solution. There's got to be the information, the records management as well. I see Lisa has a question, so I'll turn the mic over to her. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Linda. It's really awesome to hear from you, and it's really interesting to hear a consultant's perspective. Oh, thank you very much. I'm just going to throw one thing. We often have consultants come into our organizations, and we, you know, we honor some things that we didn't know, or we didn't know, and sometimes a consultant just gives us a different perspective on that. But I just want to talk about one solution. Give me one solution in terms of, I don't know, social media, email, something. What is your biggest aha moment? Because as record managers and archivists, we are struggling with social media, cloud, and email, instead of, as a consultant, coming in and looking at our problems, give me one solution for one of those big, big, big, big problems. And I, if that's too big to answer now, that's okay, but I just, you know. I could tell you, one of the things that I see over and over again, and this is not new, it's not that sexy, it's the old legacy records that every organization has and every organization is struggling with. And I think the most important thing that we can do as information professionals is help organizations develop a strategic plan to transition from paper to electronics. That, I think, is, that would be my number one solution, I think, to be able to get out from under the paper burden. It's costly, it's ineffective, people can't find things, they feel inundated, it's a space management issue, it's access, it's privacy, confidentiality. There's so many concerns that we have with managing paper, and I really feel that it's so much easier on the electronic side. So, building that strategic plan, it's, and I think it's really important, too, that we don't build a plan that basically says, okay, I'm going to take 40,000 cartons and just scan them. I think that's the wrong approach. I think what we need to do is look at what we have in that legacy collection. Identified big chunks of records that perhaps could be destroyed. Based on the retention schedule. Records that do not need to be kept because they've lost, they have no further operational value. So, building some of these components into a strategic plan, I think, is really important. Then, once you have that plan, bringing in the technology is awesome. I think, and everyone, you know, loves to know that you're optimizing a corporate investment in technology. So, I'm going to turn the tables and ask a question of Lisa, because I think you work in banking, right, and so a lot of electronic transactions going on. Have you observed traditional records being kept there as well, or do you think most of the records where you work are electronic? Oh, yeah, thank you for the invite to talk, Pat. Yes, and I do work in finance, doing some work for Royal Bank of Canada currently. And they're in a hybrid situation where absolutely there's a lot of records in paper and a lot of records in electronic format, and it's a struggle. And, you know, it's good to have these, I guess, what order I struggle on the electronic side. We've implemented social media tools, but you can't, how do you save a tweet and assign it to your record series code? It's just something that we struggle with. It's going to get back to the big bucket theory in terms of all tweets are X amount, you know, three years, five years, seven years. And I know that inherently as a records manager, I struggle with that, because there could be a policy document in there, or, you know, there could be something that's a permanent retention in that bucket I'm throwing this into, but it's a struggle. And so I'm just, you know, I don't want, this is a little bit of group therapy here, but I struggle with that in terms of, absolutely, the paper side of things is a little bit easier, but organizations are hybrid, and you, I guess you need to treat electronic records differently. You know, we have, when the records are in an electronic records management system, they're more traditional. They're in, they are scanned images that are going into electronic records management system. We can figure that out. We can say this record is closed of contract plus seven. That's easy, but it's when those things are not in an electronic records management system. It's when they're in tweets. It's when they're in social media. It's when they're in shared drives. It's when they're in an unmanaged SharePoint site is where, you know, we're all concerned and, you know, all over the map in terms of how do we manage all of that. And I guess I just, as a consultant, coming into an organization like that, it is like a typical. Yes, yes, and again, it's sometimes very hard to get your arms around, you know, the current situation. My approach would be basically, you know, I want to understand what are you dealing with, what's there, you know, understanding what are, what are all the different systems that people within your organization are working with. And so I think that's important to know, too. Then number two, so first of all is the inventory. What's there? What are the systems that they use and they access? And how are they managing their information within these systems? And then number two, what are the best practices? What are the best methodologies that have been tried and tested for tweets, for emails? And then number three, I think very important is training and education within an organization, so helping people understand what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, what can you put on your work computer and what can't you, you know, that kind of thing. And then number four is to basically audit, come back and say, all right, well, we seem to be doing a good job in this area, but not so much over here. So I think if you can, you know, it's the inventory, best practices, training and education and auditing, I would think those four areas would be very helpful to at least be a starting point if nothing else. I'm going to wait on the aha moment, Lisa, and I'm going to go ahead there because she has a question that was raised right after you were speaking, Heather. Yeah, I just had a quick follow-up question possibly for Lisa or Linda, I'm not sure, but I worked with software ImageNow, which is, Lisa, you were talking about it, it's like, you know, you scan in the document or you put the digitally born document into it, and that then, you know, subsequently gives you the retention schedule, you know, like a metadata sort of situation. But I'm just wondering if either of you or anybody else in this meeting knows about emerging technology that can sort of pick out those tweets and the social media type stuff and do retention schedules on that sort of document, I guess. Well, to me, that sounds like it would be very driven by the product. Linda, you're right. Heather, I'm doing some research on that now for a grant I'm working on, and we're looking at records in the cloud, including social media. And for the Twitter or the Facebook or those types of contents, I just met with someone from SMARSH, SMARSH is a service, so I'm talking more about services than products within the enterprise yet, because the biggest problem is gathering all of those, all of the contents in order to put it in some type of a repository in order to be able to manage it. So first, you have to have a service or a system to be able to gather that. And then once you do, you do have to use metadata or whatever in order to be able to search for what you need, thinking of e-discovery, for example, or FOIA, if you're in government, you have to get the right records and not just any record, and so you have to be able to search on names and dates and all those kind of things. So when I met with SMARSH, what they talked about, Linda, same thing, tied to the vendor. They are a service, they want to keep your content. They will pull it in, and then they will retain it, and then you pay them for that service. And their metadata that they use is not metadata that's going to allow you to grab that and seamlessly bring it into your enterprise content management system to keep it with everything else. However, there are certain products that have agreements with other vendors that do allow that type of a movement from the cloud into your enterprise, but they are very, very product specific. But people are working on them. It's not unusual. It's not impossible. It's just that it really is tied to either a service or a vendor, probably group, probably not even one because you still have to grab them. You still have to be able to have a pipe built to bring them down into the enterprise. It has to work with your enterprise records management content management system or else you need that records management system to tie in. So I guess what I'm saying is it's possible it's not easy, and nobody's going to give you the answer right now to be able to do that, but people are working on it. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. I see down there, Susan, you used Marsh for your text message archive. Social media, Facebook and Twitter has worked fine. Done disclosures well. Yep, still retention questions from your side. Yes, I spoke to them about the retention schedules and you could set up rules and you could do legal holds and they can be lifted only because you removed that rule that was applied and then the other one, the retention one falls into place. They do not allow everything that can be done just because they haven't wanted to do that, only because of their business model, not that they're being asked and don't want to do it. They're getting more questions like what you're asking and they're attempting to make modifications or additions I should say to their service to be able to manipulate the records differently, but I think the, another one like that is Archive Social and they're very good, do the same kind of a thing and we'll even tie in if you pay them, of course, with your own website to be able to give that back out again to the public if you're in government. They're doing that for North Carolina I think. So anyway, we're getting off of the original, well not really, the information governance Linda was talking about incorporates everything and so we're all struggling with all pieces of it, but I just gave a talk on structured data and my message for that was do not overlook the legacy systems still because we get too excited about social media and cloud. I'm always talking about those, but do not ever forget that there are still a lot of records that are out there in storerooms. There are a lot of records in tapes, in closets, and there are also a lot of records that are in the legacy systems that we have to figure out how to manage along with all the new stuff. So boy, we've got exciting times for records and information managers here. Right. And I think that's, you know, that all kind of fits into the strategic plan for our legacy data. It's definitely not all paper, it's all the media. I mean, I spent a little bit of time at a biotech and we had electronic notebooks, we had microfilm and microfiche and so all of those records had to be figured into the strategic plan as well so that we could apply retention and, you know, deal with those in a very secure manner because a lot of those records had to do with scientific experiments and results coming from the scientists. You know, in the fall of the records or the data, I should say from instruments, from those type of measures that keep coming through, I'm thinking of power plants, for example, people in the nuclear information records management industry have to deal with 100-year retention of that type of data that they get off of their systems and maybe nobody will ever look at it but that, getting back to the strategic plan, that is what's necessary, you have to have that overarching plan to be able to look at everything that's being used so that you can govern it properly. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, I'm, we're almost near the end of our hour here and I just want to know if anybody has a different type of question now before we finish our session. Okay, what I want to do is thank you very much for attending and to tell you that if you want the link to collaborate, just send me an email and I will send that to you. I'll get that right after we sign off so I'll have that shortly. And then Linda will also send me the link to the AEM assessment. I'd love to see that myself so I'll have that available for you too. I will do that right now. Yeah. And then I want to thank you, Linda. This was wonderful. I really appreciate your willingness to share the tips and all of the work that you have put into making your career as a consultant. Many people keep that to themselves and so it's refreshing when a consultant is willing to come out and share those tricks with other people. Yeah. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Okay. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome.