 Okay, thank you for joining today I just want to know like how many men in a room like can you just like I think is I was guessing like a dozen, but Maybe less right. I thought this impressive because I've been to so many events so many tech event was absolutely the opposite sometimes So I think it's great that they were able to bring like so much Woman in a room today and thanks also for having some some men joining I want also to Enphasize this a little bit on the fact that they bring so many amazing woman today So I've like five in the panel. I know this is very challenging And I've organized some event before and you need to invite woman is very very difficult There's not that many at this level. I have some numbers to later to mention that But it changes like a lot of women are doing so many things. So it's very difficult for them So it's why I want to say thank you for joining us today So like maybe we just start with like one or two minutes each of you to just introduce yourself what you do in your in your companies and Yeah Okay, I'm Susan Jen. I'm the chief marketing officer for Asia Pacific for IBM and Based in the US, but I've been in Asia for a total of about nine like nine years And it's the best place on the planet Particularly Singapore may I add So hi everybody, I'm a Sunita core. I'm the managing director for Asia at Spotify. I'm Michelle Simmons I'm general manager for Microsoft's Southeast Asia new markets. So I'm responsible for Consumer and commercial business in nine countries in Southeast Asia Hi, I'm no pride your coupon and I'm with Google. I work a lot with absent game developers to help them scale up that business Hi, good morning. My name is Rosanna and I'm a lead business analyst in ThoughtWorks. So what I really do is a lot of talking Mainly to ThoughtWorks being a consulting company. I talked to the clients. What are your requirements? What do we need to build and I talked to the developers. This is what we need to build I bridge the gap and Mostly, I hope to share to you guys today is really just just to share a bit of an information I've worked in the tech department for For for all my career, but actually didn't graduate with a with a tech degree. So So that and another thing is like I'm a mother of two with one infant So I guess, you know, that's that's what I wanted to share with you If you can pick up anything on that if I can help on that area amazing Thank you. So the thing is I mentioned before when we look at leadership in a check on all your companies How many women on the boards of your companies, right? So usually it's between two to three Women on board of each of those company like IBM, Microsoft, Spotify Even if ThoughtWorks, so ThoughtWorks, I just look at the C level because there's no board I mean it was difficult to find it's not the listed company and Spotify It was quite interesting because they're maybe planning to go for an IPO and recently They just bring like two women on the board and before it wasn't any woman on the board apparently So this is interesting when you just look at the board level, but when you look at some numbers, so for example, I found for ThoughtWorks because they got in a while recently so they Describe how many women at each level. So if you look at overall in the company is 40.5 percent of women So you're close to the 50-50, right? But when you go to mid-level is is 46.2 percent and then when you look at senior level is only 30 percent And when you go to executive level is 23.8 percent So the higher you go the less woman you have in the organization is the same thing with Alibaba So Jack Ma was also very supportive of women But it's the same thing on his organization and I think you get only one woman on his board So it's less than than any of those companies today So my question would be like what would be your advice for women to be able to take those leadership role and and be able One day to reach this kind of sea level or or board of those companies like how can we see more women going to those positions? Well, we do have a female CEO You you are the only company IBM is the only one here and across the four 500 is like Around like 20 30 companies with a female CEO, but IBM is true We see the pictures and there aren't very many One thing, you know She just did a very unusual Interview that I would refer people to with Steve Kramer where she talked about her personal life and her challenges and it's really very inspiring when you look at someone who's come to the level of CEO and She came into being the leader of IBM in a period of time where the business suddenly became very challenged and a lot of it was personalized to her but Watching her has been really inspiring to me because and she talks about you know What helped her to do that and what she brought out of inside her which is basically not to let people characterize you as what they think You are but to be who you are and be authentic and genuine in yourself And I think that's in them, you know, that's was very inspiring to me even to and I wanted to share that Okay, so so you mentioned ThoughtWorks, right? So ThoughtWorks We do have a CTO CTO that is female. That's Rebecca Parsons So we're quite proud of that fact that our CTO is a female and here in Singapore our MD Who's actually sitting there is Jesse. So she's so she started she became the MD last year, right? So personally here in Singapore for me being employed in Singapore I was like yay a female MD and apart from that the the Asia Pacific MD who's Ange is also a female. So Compared to the other previous companies I've worked for I would say like ThoughtWorks is Doing much better in that aspect. So that's a very very personally very happy about that But speaking generically I do see that the stats that you mentioned they're very very true and So how do we you know, how do we solve that problem? I guess it's a very very complicated problem that that we should tackle both in many different ways. So personally from my experience When I was really really young just starting out in my career, right? I've never really felt the difference of Men and women in the workforce because I was single and I didn't have a family. I'm like What do you mean like equality in the workplace? What's it like? I feel totally fine. I don't feel any difference with my male colleagues, but things have changed my first my actually the the the The main change that I felt was really when I had children When I got married little difference, but when I had children it's like I had a male boss and and After I came back to maternity from maternity leave I was like, you know, I'm really looking for a woman mentor somebody that I can talk to about the the Challenges that I'm facing and him being a male my male boss He was really really really supportive, but he was not able to to Understand a lot of the things that I'm experiencing and that was like an aha moment for me like, you know This is this is that's probably why At the you know the entry level Maybe it's 50 50 men and women, but as as women age, you know, because they are you know They're further down in their night like like they have start having families They start having kids and they have a lot more to juggle. That's when they start, you know opting out of the workforce so For that problem. They're both internal and external Forces at play so internally, you know, they did mention that Being there's the imposter syndrome if you should look at, you know, how many female leaders they are I said, oh, who do I aspire to not much? So that's an internal problem external problem as well like because of these changes because for example now you you have children There's you finally realize that society expects very different things from you as a woman or you as a man So and you suddenly realize oh, there's so much more responsibility So there are also external factors that need to be addressed to make the I guess, you know The expectations more balance for men and women. So so it's a very intricate problem And I believe that in general our society is both our society Changing the external factors and really helping women with the internal factors. It's progressing But it's not something that happens overnight. So it's a long process and we have to continually do it Again and again, we may not all of a sudden see a lot of changes But we have to pursue so that you know at the end we finally reach equality that we're aiming for I would add Speaking specifically about why we don't see more women at the board level in the C-suite I think that what one of the things that Susan talked about earlier is how women actually speak to the the opportunities their their Business life their work life and the challenges at that level And so I think there are more and more women who are speaking out and and sharing those stories We also we have a female CFO Amy Hood And she's also very open about the challenges that she faces about balancing Work and the demands of work with her family life. So I think that that's a good start in the right direction But I also think that Earlier in the career if women aspire to that level we need to be very thoughtful about the types of career choices that we make And I think that's often not part of the discussion. It's typically a Male-female diversity discussion, but there's also if we are aiming for C-suite There's typically a need for diverse diversification of experiences as well that comes into the discussion I think just to pick up on on one word which was which was balance I think you know balancing anybody's life is it doesn't matter what what gender you are and We are at a point Professionally just as a as a world where Conversations are changing and I think taking gender off the table is incredibly important I'm not saying women use a lot of things as an excuse But when you can balance things out As an individual or as as a company That's very very important and one thing that I've definitely learned at Spotify, which Really helped to do that. I mean, you know working for for 22 years I can't remember when we didn't talk about gender inequality But what we did at Spotify about two years ago is we changed that conversation Not from a woman's perspective, but from a man's perspective And the first step we did was we extended six months maternity leave and also applied six months Paternity leave and I very recently had an interesting conversation with our head of strategy and operations who's a guy and just had a little girl and sat with me and You know almost basically was quite uncomfortable with the fact that he had to take six months off work And so with that conversation changing it evens out the playing field and it evens out The conversation and the balance and I think that's where the next generation needs to take that I think this is very interesting because there's several companies who are looking to also offer the same Duration for men and women for paternity or maternity leave But I think there's some numbers already on some companies where they found out that even if they're offering very few men Are really taking it or they would just take a small part of it or none at least So how can we really encourage because I think it's maybe also some social pressure for men like if you're a man with a Baby in a street and people see you like every week that kind of the thing you don't work, right? They would don't think you're an important leave for six months So they may get some social pressure from their friends, etc. So how can we also encourage like this side? How can we see like more men doing those kind of things? Yeah, it's interesting you say that my husband stays at home He's been at home for nearly 14 years So he faces that I think that perception we lived in Korea for three years where a stay at home Father is basically unheard of So I think there are some social pressures But at the same time I would argue if Men choose not to take that time, you know when I took I had three children within 39 months And so that was a lot of maternity leave in a very short period of time But I chose to because of that to go back to work as at 12 weeks For each of those that was my choice other people at Microsoft took more time And so I think that we need to enable Men and women to make those choices, but make those available and also make them acceptable In the workplace and so there's societal aspects as I mentioned that I think stay at home and do face but there's part of The more the more men that you do have taking paternity leave staying at home. You start to change those those dialogues What I would add to the conversation around, you know, like men and women and all of this I think it all coming back to how do we change it's it's starting with, you know, having sponsorship and having Mentor and having strong culture within the company to be supportive and and I think like, you know all of us can be advocating for you know, like men women and just but but not Try to bucket people into hey because your mom or because you're you know, you're a girl or your men And then you start clouding your judgment. I think it's all going back to looking at the quality of people work and being supportive of one another's and Advocating for the cause that having diversity at your table helps the company make better decisions Help the company, you know, like to have stronger cultures being more inclusive in your leadership I think that's very very important when it come to company culture that Allow us to do that and allows all individuals to thrive to thrive And I think also I mean today the discussion is about a lot about women But when we talk about diversity is like far beyond only woman is about age is about politics is about LGTB, etc, right? And I think at Google also they have like some specific benefits some time based on also like LGTB Can have some specific benefits that maybe other people don't have not because they want to discriminate But because they want to offer what people need so I think is also very important about this inclusion on the company I think it's exactly because you know, there's different groups in and We approach and we think about employees and Recently I helped one of my team member who was going through his now her his discovery and it's not easy, you know, there's It's not going through traditional life and having having a family and and having a baby but that's also a different type of diversity and By being inclusive then you encourages your employee to be happy and when they're happy they just contribute more and and creating that kind of environment where you allow people to be themselves and To bring that true self to work. I think it's very very important Yeah, I think also when when you look at the unicorns were being built in the US They mentioned like 51% of them have at least some foreign funders So I think it's also quite interesting really to have like this diversity and I mentioned is you go beyond like just woman and man I know like all your other companies are doing things to promote diversity and inclusion So three out of the five today. It's really the listed one of a section about diversity and inclusion and their HR page For spotify and tout work is more about on the blog. There is some mention on those points So what do you think you can do to support like more diversity or what your organization is doing to support more diversity and inclusion? at your office, I Think the culture points are really important one and and we tend to think of culture as being either driven by the Organization or driven by the leadership and those things are there, but you know to your point We all create the culture and one thing that made a remarkable change For us in IBM was moving from Moving from cubicles to a totally open space and That includes everybody so it was a little uncomfortable for me at first to sit at this long table That included, you know people two three four levels below me's Administrative assistance, etc. But the change was remarkable I mean once you get over the fact that you can't talk too loudly or the Italian guy, you know has an annoying accent But it changed the way we work and everyone's opinion becomes part of you know that becomes the culture We create the culture. It's not given to us and that's when Things really start to happen in the creativity and the personalities and all of that actually make it much more than when everyone's sitting in There, you know little space on a headphone I would add one of the things You know Microsoft has had a commitment to diversity and inclusion But one of the things that we've done over the last couple years is focus on unconscious bias And I know there are a number of companies that are that are doing that because then you start to really Understand not just too often. I think diversity and inclusion becomes a numbers discussion Which doesn't actually change behaviors It doesn't change the way it doesn't change one's thinking and so by focusing on unconscious bias We actually start to break down Your your your thinking that you may not be aware of what are you bringing to work What are you bringing to your team your organization your workspace? Both positive and negative and it was interesting. I was just talking to someone at Microsoft last night a co-worker and he was mentioning he said I thought it was there was a picture in the news and it had President Trump and it had the CEO of Apple the CEO of Microsoft and the CEO of Amazon and his perspective not being an American was how incredible is it to see a gay CEO a foreign CEO and also another CEO who has you know a different background as far as ethnicity and I Didn't think of that at all coming from the US. I'm a US citizen My bias was just oh look there's some technology leaders meeting with President Trump And and so there was interesting his So not necessarily a bias, but the perception based on what I grew up with Versus what he grew up with he was more in tune to that diversity sitting at that table And I think I love the The thought of you know diversity not being a number and just hiring the best person for the job And one thing that's that's definitely on on our minds at Spotify for us diversity is is the generation gap You know you've got You know people like us who I mean I haven't you know had my own office since like 1996 and But then you've got this whole wave of Of a workforce that's coming in that doesn't want to be at their desk at nine o'clock in the morning, which I Struggle with right because I'm just you know eight o'clock at my desk You know I clock my my hours my days very structured And everyone's like well, you know, I'm gonna come in at ten thirty and But it's it's that it's that sharing it's that sharing of different generations and Again, you know when even when it comes to performance reviews, which I know is like a ooh, but My generation is very very used to very structured once a year. I will sit down with you I will judge you and I will tell you what your next year is gonna be like and I remember when when I first started at Spotify four years ago that was massive pushback on that where Everybody I mean the average age at Spotify is about 23 So I got massive pushback saying you cannot sit there and tell me once a year how I'm doing and I thought I think that's really fair. So, you know in in our Asia office. It's immediate feedback We've got two development talks a year. And so by the time we have our review There's so much, you know data to fall back on and it's a very healthy conversation and so That whole diversity with age is where we both or three of our generations can learn from each other You mentioned like you when you are you're focused on finding the right person, right? But when we look at numbers like HP of a studio about that like a man may apply for a job when he don't Have all the skills so and he may be on only 60% of the skill he will apply Woman will wait until they reach 100% of the skills, right? So the thing for your job you may get maybe more men than women applying So even if you select the best person but sometime I feel like recruitment could be a bit passive You just put the job offer and you wait for people to apply But how can you find also maybe other top talent who can allow you to have like maybe a more diverse range of choice So I have a team that is fairly diverse and I've actually sought out people who And there's a number of women who in my organization who perhaps didn't have the hundred percent of the skills But they were bringing something unique to the table to add to the diversity and thinking within the team And so I do think it requires From a hiring manager perspective from an MD perspective to actually be looking at the whole Organization and having discussions around talent and being thoughtful about seeking out People who bring different skills who can can question that's one of the things that I'll often ask New hires to do is to challenge the thinking I've been at Microsoft 16 years I want people to challenge how I'm thinking about the business Of course in a respectful way But I want them to challenge my thinking and others thinking and I think that's a great thing that new hires bring And so I actually seek that out How do you do that in Asia getting people to challenge you because for example I went I'm from Europe, right? So French would challenge a lot When I was student in China professor didn't expect us any questions, right? You go in the US people expecting asking question. So what do you get in Asia people coming and challenging you? It is difficult But I think it's it's seeking out specific feedback from individuals Providing opportunities for them to perhaps work on projects or to give feedback to others. So it requires a lot of different approaches in order to do that and I do think and it's a generalization I hate making generalizations, but in Asia one tends to rely more on their expertise and so Bringing them in to challenge based on their expertise. I've found also successful I've got a few points to add on that. I think it's really important to be intentional about your hiring so I've been at Google for a little over nine years and have my fair share of hiring people to the company and The hiring process that we have is not the hiring manager Interviewing the person and say hey, you go ahead and we'll go with you but we actually putting together a panel of you know diverse interviewer on the on the panels with you know Someone from the the function someone from cross function Cross-functional and we're looking at different dimensions from you know Can they do the job to what they fit the company culture do they have the Leadership skills that we're looking for because we're not hiring someone to be in that box forever But someone that can grow with the organization and I think also looking out for I love you know looking up for all of those unconscious bias and I think when you hire people just think is this person best for the job and Sometime when you thinking too much about gender you can also fall in the trap of being very you know positive discrimination and Hiring people and they're coming in and then think oh am I your diversity trophy? So that's you don't want to get into that So it's all about hiring the best people for the job But giving people equal chance to be successful in the company by stripping out of your biases and giving people equal footing to to allowing them to be successful and on how to build culture and and How to actually encourage just people to speak up so at different points and I'm actually from Thailand But been in Singapore for about 10 years I've had different People from different nationalities on my team And it's it's very colorful and the type of conversations that we've had on our team You know I've had Filipino I have all of the South East Asian nationalities Some you know French Lebanese from the US Malaysia And all over the place of Australian Dutch and when you put everyone on a table Then you can notice hey the Asian were very quiet And if you hire if you manage to hide that you know the introverted in an Asian one Oh the introverted Asian one they even walk quieter or the Japanese one the discuss between themselves before they you know Han over the official point of view So I think it's then Later, so then it I think it come back to if you are the one leading that organization or leading that team Are you providing people with? Are you being conscious and aware of the types of you know how people process information how people think? How people make decisions and if you know that you have a mix of introverted and extroverted on the team They make decision differently then create an equal playing field let them know the agenda way in advance so that they can form their Opinion and come to the meeting prepared And not let the extroverted just take over the meeting and then call people out when they talk too much and then allow the other Person to talk but don't call them on the spot if you know that that you know preferences and I think the other point. It's extremely important is people are not going to speak up if they don't feel safe Psychological safety is probably the most important thing that you want in your culture People will not speak up people will you know if they if they feel that they might be retaliated If they feel that hey if I give feedback to you know like someone on this table and all my career will be in jeopardy They're not gonna speak up So I think it's all about going back to then are you are you walking? Walking the talk if you welcome feedback if you want them to and I think people people know If you're genuine or not and if you're being authentic and you know that And they know that you have the best intention of taking the feedback and making their lives in a company better. They'll speak up So I want to touch on two things from the perspective of ThoughtWorks first is in terms of hiring So in ThoughtWorks, we really try to do to get creative with our hiring process So instead of the traditional interviews. Oh, you know, look at your CV. Oh, tell me about this experience. How about this one? Instead of doing that question and answer we do You know your job mostly you will be doing this. How about we do it together? Let's simulate it Let's do it together. That's pair. That's when we really are able to tell You know how that person will potentially do in a job as opposed to somebody who really do know just practice You know, these are the I looked at glass door. These are the potential questions and then I've nailed them down But really you know that person may not necessarily Be able to perform the job. He just really he or she just really you know prepared for the question So that's vastly different. So we really try as much as possible to to do things together to do case studies And we have quite a lengthy Like interview process lengthy not in terms of like it's harrowing again and again, but we really try to get to know the person So, you know, it's what during hiring. It's not really just The potential employee putting the best foot forward, right? It's also the company, right? We want to show that we are really we're a really good company And you know, here's how our marriage might work, right? Because it's it's a marriage, you know You know, the potential employee with a company both have to be happy But it has to fit together has to be that chemistry. So on both sides, we want to get to know each other So so that's for the hiring and in terms of diversity, right? One of the things I really love about Thorworks is that diversity is not just on our blog. We really celebrate diverse diversity in such a way that you know For example, there's the pick-not event that's coming up in July one although, you know Singapore government has been strict that this year you cannot Yeah, PR in Singaporeans only you foreigners cannot attend You know our office before that that was announced our Thorworks Singapore has really really been excited to be part of this one for this event But the fact that they they made that restriction this year a lot of the employees were really really sad that they couldn't join So let's say you know how about let's do work around. Let's do some sort of mini party before the event So so even when we're not officially allowed to join the event There's a lot of things going on, you know as work around to still celebrate diversity just very specifically We had two sessions of ask me anything where in the first session there was a Openly gay person like you really ask me anything so in the office right pigeon hole You know you can ask me anything about my experience being a gay man blah blah blah and you know Come if you compare that to other companies who say yes, we like diversity, but that's about it You know we put posters, you know we we send newsletters But this one is like technically they asked me anything session is not really anything related to consulting to technology, right? But but we do it in the office because we really you know, we celebrate diversity It's really important to us It may not be directly related to you know your client you're you know how you do your coding But we celebrate the different people in our office and we really want them to feel and understand to feel Safe and understand each other so so that so that's the just just wanted to really share the events that we're planning for I think that I will ask my last question for today Jack my mention recently that the secret sauce of Ali Baba is having a lot of women And he mentioned like because women kind of care they don't only care about themself, but they care about their family They care about other people Which means like a lot of things to do so my question would be how do you balance your work and and personal life? How do you manage? I mean your kids you just mentioned like you're traveling a lot. What how do you do that, right? Mostly imperfectly But but recognizing that and living with it before we were talking about I had a business meeting once where the nanny failed to Show up, so I just took my daughter with me on a plane to Boston. Those were the days when you could do that She'll still remind me that I missed three of her birthdays in a row because I had a meeting that was always the week of her birthday, but on the other hand she's lived in five countries and She's traveled around the world and she she you know You get the balance from the feedback from other people and you do the best that you can and be authentic about it And in the end you'll probably be terrific. I think Yes, there's there's a lot of chat about about this because you know women come across as having a bit more empathy perhaps But as I think back on on Spotify, I do admit I'm about 80 percent manager 20 percent mama bear But it's just it's that's who I am and so across my entire life whether it's my family or work or You know other things that that make up my life. It's it's my life just like any other human being and it's the same with With lots and lots of guys that I know where they've got their families and they've got work and They've got other parts of their lives as well, and I think again it goes back to To leveling that that playing field and and you know to to your point about you know men tend to You know go for jobs where they may be 80 percent qualified and women feel like they they need to be 100% qualified. I stopped doing that 15 years ago and My philosophy has been fake it till you make it So you because there will be so much that would get you in through the door And then as you learn on the job and everybody learns on the job That's gonna get you to that hundred and then that hundred and twenty percent and maybe on this point I will say usually try to skip the HR go to the hiring manager Maybe the one able to understand the what you can do even if you don't have done the same job at the competitive company before For me, I'd say First is prioritization. I prioritize those things first that are most important So whether that's working out first thing in the morning because I'll never get to it if I wait till the evening or whether that's You know, I I tend to work Hard during the week and I try to focus weekends on family time But the second thing I would say is I'm unapologetic so I think you said imperfectly and Certainly all of us are imperfect and I'm not Apologizing for that. So if I can't do something from home or there's there's something that I'm not able to do because of my travel schedule or whatnot, I mean my kids are resilient and They tend to understand I've you know, I grew up with my father traveling Monday through Friday I've traveled the majority of my career and You figure out how to balance it and I don't beat myself up for it While I don't have kids, but I have witnessed an amazing, you know like group of female leaders within my my company and I've had some as my mentor and sponsors and I think it's it's just a Touched on two things. One is discipline and Being very, you know, like structured in how you choose to spend your time and getting your priority, right? So if you can't travel on your, you know, child's birthday or you know, you can't get an any so being Forward about that. I think the team what just around you. They are supportive network and so so being very disciplined and your priority and the other one is on Imposter syndrome, which I thought was touched on multiple times So the research say that about 70% of people regardless of gender have experienced that At least once and it's just how you cope with it And I think what happened is you start it when you start having self-doubt and you're not, you know Recognizing that you get the success that you get because you earn it and you start thinking oh, you know what? It's it's it's just luck. I'm it's just luck. Someone gonna find out I'm fraud and when you start going down that route It's spiral down. I think I spent my first four years thinking I'm gonna get fired Every year like oh, they promote me again. I'm so gonna get fired. They're gonna find out I Think at some point you need to stop doing that because if you keep doing that you just spiral down so find your support system and Believe in yourself and if and when you have doubt Shut down the success that you've done validate yourself And use that as a extra push to then say you prepare more you you know You know more about the subject and put your hands up for opportunity All right for me personally work life balance is something that's very close to my heart. I Feel I feel for that topic almost every day Well like literally every day. So so how it is for me right now is I'm actually technically based in Thailand right now, but my family's in Singapore. So to balance both sides I travel Monday to Friday. I'm in Thailand Saturday Sunday. I'm here in Singapore with my family And it's very important to me For me to be here in Singapore every weekend because I have two kids one being just 11 months old And I'm also breastfeeding. So every every Friday slash Saturday very early in the morning actually Bring a big pack of frozen breast milk for my baby because you know, I want to give the best for my baby It's it's like I'm gonna do this not gonna fail as a mother. So So I often get that question like how do you manage to do that? Aren't you exhausted? the short answer is yes, I'm exhausted very very exhausted and There is no magic pill answer to say oh if you do this if you do this here here are the tips Everything will be fine. So it helps that I really really enjoy my job So when I am in Thailand, you know, I am there hundred percent. I'm enjoy I enjoy whether doing I get my I get fulfillment out of it and when I'm in Singapore I get you know, I try to maximize the time with my family as much as possible but that being said it's again, it's not One perfect answer say just follow this one. Everything will be okay. I Have good days and I have very very bad days as well and Exactly what they're saying, you know, if you have a bad day Just, you know, maybe give it a give a good cry and then pick yourself up do it again tomorrow and you know find Strength from the things and the people you love and just power through and in the end, you know Hopefully everything will work out fine and then you know, yay I've made my family happy and my career as well. Yes. So so there's no one straight answer And it's something that you know continually we have to balance again and again. Thank you very much Hello, thank you so much Wow, that was that was a lot of great conversation to take in as an emcee I'm supposed to usually summarize a panel. I don't know. I was taking notes and I kept getting longer and longer and longer And I to be honest that was amazing. So thank you Michelle Sunita, Rosanna, Susan, Nopra and Arnaud for starting off our morning with amazing conversations About gender equality about how each tech company has been so forward thinking but in their own ways and just kind of sharing with Us your personal stories your challenges and your own words of wisdom at the end. So thank you so much again