 Fylltycheershu Ymgr��yddau yn yw'r Llyfr Gwld Wych Cymru, wo dim ei gadw i'ch�abilio chi gRIS'. Felly mor ôl y byddwn yn gesbyn hefyd i'r com experiêncian Sfahan Daddy Rydych yn y Chymbod Rwyfydd Gwmpnod Rydych I25, sowie mae gennym Ymwneud y admysgol bırakennu, ac y gallid gan y mae ei ardal y brunannaeth Doedd y bydd pawn yw eu cymdeithio yn Ymgr balanceda'r Llyfr Gwymel cynyddoch i ddweud gan phun yn hynny'r dysgu, bwyddan nhw'n strengthen nawr y devll, The camera follows the microphone being switched on. Councillor and officers are advised to wait a couple of seconds before speaking to allow the camera to catch up. Please can those participating in the meeting via the livestream indicate that you wish to speak via the chat column please do not use the chat column for any other purpose. Make sure that your device is fully charged and yet you switch your microphone off unless you are invited to do otherwise. bydwch ddoch i'n diweddig i'ch nodu a gymryddiadau yn rhoi, a llwyddo'r cerddadig, os ydych chi'n meddwl under rhan agodd yn ei wneud i'r wneud. Nawr, ychydig i'ch meddwl yn diweddig i'ch meddwl i'ch meddwl, byddwch chi'n meddwl yn offi ateb sydd i'ch meddwl ynンモ, byddwch eich meddwl yn rhan agor, syll iddyn nhw, iddyn nhw i dweud a ddestudio'r diger ymddill diwethaf. Yn amlwg waith ymlaen o'r cyfnodd cyffredinol? Yn amlwg, mae nhw'n gwneud amlwg wedi'i gwneud o'r cyffredinol. Yn amlwg, yw'r cyffredinol? Roedd ychydig yn ei gael. Mae'r cyfnodd yma. Mae'r Cyfredinol erbyn yn ddyltydd hefyd. Beth gwrsio'r cyfrif iawn, mae'n gydag i chi'n i chi hynny. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfrif iawn i'ch cyfrif iawn i'ch cyfrif iawn i'ch cyfrif iawn. Roedd y cwmornod o'r ddweud i gael ei wneud o'r cyramen sy'n mynd i gweithio ar y mewn yr agenda? Roedd mae'r cyramen sy'n mynd i gweithio fydd yn ni'n ei gweithio, ac yn ôl, yn cael ei gweithio ar y gweithio ar y gweithio. Ac oes, mae'n cwmornod o'r gweithio i'r gweithio ar y gweithio ar y gweithio yng nghymru diwrdd am 4 oed 22 oed y rwyf i gweithioau cael gweld, ond rwy'n gweithio'r gweithio ar y gwedd, Mae'r gweithgaredd iawn, yma yw'r gweithgaredd iawn 4 a 5 oedd efallai yn ffordd. Mae'n ei chyfnodd a'r gweithgaredd iawn i'r gweithgaredd iawn ei ddweud, ac yn ymgylchedd yma, rydw i'n gweithgaredd iawn i'w ymgylchedd iawn i'w ddweud, ac yn ymgylchedd iawn i'r gweithgaredd iawn i'w ddweud. On agenda item 4, y completion of the 2018-19 accounts can I have a committee's acceptance to defer to another meeting, and on agenda item 5, the 2018-19 audit results report from the external audit. Agreed. Okay so agenda items 4 and 5 can be agreed to be deferred to another meeting. Excuse me Chairman, sorry to interrupt you, can we have an approximation of when that meeting will be held? Mae'n gweithio'r awgfyrdd e-y, oherwydd mae'n gweithio'r awgfyrdd e-y, dwi'n meddwl e-y, os ydych chi'n mynd ydi'r awgfyrdd e-y, dwi'n mynd ymlaen i'n mynd i chi. Yn gyflwydu yma, ei gwrsio ar y cwmddraeth e-y, cyfeirio'r cymdeithasol ar y cyfnodau yma'n wneud i ymddangos i gynnwys gwirioneddau ymddangos i gael. Cymru i'n gyfodol am hyn o'r dweud ymlaen. Felly, gyda nieis ar gwaith. Felly, ymlaen ar gwaith ymlaen, Mae'r dweud rydyn ni'nhum — mae'r cymdeithasol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae'r pethau sy'n rywbeth yn ymlaen. A tiynau yma'r problemau sy'n wneud ar gweithio. Fawr yn gweithio. Felly, mae'n ddim yn oed gofio hynny, yn gondol, mae'n gilydd ydym ni'n gweithio. Felly, nid oes i wneud o fewn i'n gweithio. Roeddwn i'n mynd i'n meddwl ar y cyfle yng Nghymru i chi yw ddim yn ffacol ydych chi sydd wedi'u serain gyda gwasanaeth fel ychydig ar gyfer gyda hynny wedi cyfle, rhoi beth sy'n teleginnau'n gwneud? Fel cyfraffiad ar gyfer, maen nhw'n ddim yn paroedd o beth sy'n'n ddim yn ghaelio hefyd yn gyflawni'n gwneud.istaen i'r hyffordd oherwydd lleol y mynd chi, byddwn i'n dda himorol yn 4 o 5 wedi'i gweithio'r gweith UI, Ac oeddwn i ddraeth o'r cyd-draeth sydd ymwneud o'r edrych o'r ddaf amgylchedd, oherwydd o'r ddaf yn cael ei ddydigig. Ond oeddwn i'n ddweud i'r ddaf i ddych chi'n ddoch yn y ddechrau. Mae'n oedd o'n gwybod o'r ddod loddau, mae'n ddod ydw i'n ddod o'r tyfn sut mae'n ddod i ddod y ddod yn ddod. Mae'n ddod i ddod i'n ddod i'n ddod i'n ddod i'n ddod o'r ddod i'n ddod ydod fel roi. Roeddwn ni'n meddwl ar gyferwyr, yn cyfnod defnyddio llaidd iawn o'r ddiogel o hyfin ylliannod yn eu ddweud o'r bach? Mae'n meddwl i chi, rydyn ni'n meddwl fyddwn i amrydd iawn o'r ddefnyddio ifanc yma yma. Felly, mae'n gwybodaeth a'r bobl am y tro cyfanyddol. Forogi'r defnyddio'r ddweud o'r ddweud ar gyferwyr, ble byddwn ni'n meddwl ar gyferwyr. Ieithaf, yn gwneud ac yn gweithio gyda'r ddylch gan'r ddeithas hynny, ond, mae'r ddechrau'r ddweithiau o bobl sy'n gymryd yn cyfnod y byddai'r ysgrifennu yn ei gynnwys ar hyn o'r hynny. Felly, yma gweithio yma i'r ddechrau'r gweithio yma, ymlaen i'r ddechrau'r ddechrau. Felly, rydym yn gweithio pan yw Jonathan Tully, yma yw'r ddechrau ar y ddechrau. Good morning... Thank you, chairman. Good morning to everyone. We're on page five of our agenda packs. The purpose of this document is to just look looking at recent orders, themes and developments. In this update, we highlights a couple of developments regarding the procurement of local audits. We also provided an update YouTube with insurance work. yna dyfodol ein bod yn ffocos yn y cyfraffau yma. Rydym yn ei wneud i gael y Ffordd Plan, y Schemeg Fawr, ac mae'r gweithio gyda'r ysgwrs Gwyddiadau Cymru yn ystod i'r ysgwrs. Yn y bwysig o'r peth o'r awr, mae'n amlant o'r cyfrun iawn gyda'r Ysgwrs Gwyddiadau Cymru ar gyfer y cyfrwyr yma, ac mae'n wneud i'r ysgwrs gyda'r Ysgwrs Gwyddiadau Cyfrwyr yn ystod i'r ysgwrs. Rydyn ni'n ddweud, ím fforddwys SOES-lage ond mae'r cyfnod, a'r cyffredin fod yn gyda'r ddweud a'r cyfnod yn cydweithio'r ddeimlo, felly rydyn ni wedi eu cydwylliant gympas yn fforddwys hwnnol i wneud. Beth y gallwn gweld eittr ysgol yn bobl o'ch cyfrifoldau, yn cyfrifold, mae'n ffwrdd wedi cael ei bod iplaywn i ni'n cwestiynyd? Marshal. I wonder if just your pure interest was taken but expanded to a bit more on page 13, please. Just a pure interest, so we have now an understanding of what's actually been happening. So page 13 of the report is regarding investigations in process, these statistics are provided by the fraud team, so I wonder if we want to bring in Tara at this point, if Tara's on the call. Good morning, yes, I am on the call. So, what would you like to discuss? Just a flavour of the type of things that you've been investigating and what has gone to court, etc. Just not too specific because I'd want to identify individuals, but just an understanding for the committee what you're actually doing. Sure, OK. So a common theme at the moment is around the reliefs and grant fraud. We recently took the decision to take a case where we'd investigated an owner of a business who had falsely claimed £10,000 from the small business rates relief grant fund. So investigation took place and we successfully prosecuted them in court last week. So that was quite an important case for us just because it is quite a topical conversation at the moment, obviously, and we do have a lot of new rebates, etc. on the horizon. So as part of our preventative activity taking action there, we felt was necessary. The other work that we are doing at the moment is around the protecting our housing assets. So we're investigating social housing fraud as well. And that's quite a high priority for the authority just because the losses that can be attached to having to re-home a family who is homeless or deemed homeless. And we've had some really good investigation work around that recently, which has resulted in at least one tenancy being returned. And we do have another case that has been recommended for prosecution for around social housing fraud and are in discussions relating to a third case about whether we actually pursue legal action. We've seen less council tax support fraud really at the moment, just at the moment we've only got one investigator on a full time basis. So our resources are quite limited and we're having to focus on where we think we can make the most impact and around grant fraud and housing fraud is where our focus has been. Thank you Chairman, it's very good to know. I think it's especially good to know that we are catching people who try to defraud, not only us, but other people who could be worthy of that grant as well. So that's excellent and I do hope in whatever the law allows we can actually publicise that so people know we have to give grants but at the same time if Henry Fraudley tries to go for them then obviously then we will come down on them and correctly so. So thank you, thank you very much Tarl. Any further questions or comments from the committee? Okay, thanks to Jonathan and Tara for the reports and their feedback. The committee has asked to note this report. If we go on to agenda item 7, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act Repay. We seek the committee's approval of the current policy and note the council's use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. May I ask Rory McKenna to present this item? Thank you Chair. So Rippa regulates covert investigations by a number of bodies including local authorities and the Investigatory Powers Commissioners Office is responsible for the inspection of public authorities with regards to compliance with Rippa. Now the council was the subject of a remote inspection in February 2021 and the report concluded that the information provided demonstrated a level of compliance that removes for the present the requirement for a physical inspection. The inspector also commented that the policy was a well written document and easy to read and that there have been no changes to the legislation since the last revision of the policy by this committee in March 2021. Now his members will be aware a function of this committee is to receive quarterly updates on the council's use of Rippa powers and to review the Rippa policy on an annual basis. Therefore the purpose of this report is to seek the approval of committee members on the current policy wording noting that there are no updates from when it was approved last year and to confirm that Rippa powers have not been used since the committee last met. Chair the recommendations are outlined at 3A and B of the report at page 17 and that is the end of my report. Thank you. Chairman I think we should agree this report. Any any further comments? No. So the recommendation is that the Order and Corporate Governance Committee approve the council's Rippa policy as that appendix A and note that the council has not used the powers between January 2022 and February 2022. Agreed. It's been agreed by the committee. The committee. Thanks to Roy for his report. So move on to agenda item 8, anti theft fraud, bribery and corruption policy. May I ask Tawr and the Beam King to present this item? Yes. Sure. So it's okay Tawr, I'll just introduce the item and then if you pick up any questions that come up then. So this anti fraud bribery and corruption policy is an update on a policy that was somewhat out of date. So we've had a thorough review of that policy and there's some additional information in there. The policy itself is looking at how we deal with such things across the authority. So it's more of an inward looking document and applies to both officers and members. So we brought the policy up to date just to and there's a number of changes to it. So I think it was well overdue on today and I recommend this policy to the committee. Any further questions from the committee? Council Williams. Can I just add thank you to Tawr for an excellent document and policy. Clearly since setting up the corporate full team in 2020 I think that's from the previous agenda item it's shown to be the right thing to do. And this obviously is part of that important work that they are doing that we have an up to date policy. So I do thank her for the work that she's doing. Thank you. Tawr I mentioned earlier that the vacancies in this team. Yeah so we've got one full time investigator. We have got another investigator on board but there's quite a lot of training involved in bringing someone up to speed. So we have got two investigators one who's going through an apprenticeship and we've also got another officer who's an intelligence officer. And they do more of the preliminary work rather than the investigatory work. I think we need to look carefully at the resources in the team because there is a lot of work there and there's somewhat of a backlog. So it would be my intention to find some resources to get a further resource in to try and clear that backlog because the backlog obviously is partly related to COVID because we weren't able to investigate cases at that point. So I think it's quite important that we do get in a temporary resource at the very least to try and clear some of this backlog. So that will be the intention over the next few months to get that sorted out. Castle Hales. Thank you. This is to Peter for me. Are there any, excuse me, getting somebody else in to help deal with the backlog. Is there any limitation on time for investigating fraud? There is, Tyler may know better than me on some of the limit. Hi. Okay. So obviously we try to avoid any kind of unreasonable delays when we are looking at investigating fraud. It does depend as well on some of the time bars and when we've got sufficient evidence to actually take a case forward. It may be that we could argue in line with the delays that we've experienced because of COVID because of the backlogs and problems that we even the court system had at the time that we can take the investigation to the point of interview and the interview being the last piece of evidence and then depending upon which act we're actually using to take it forward. We can look at the time bar that's on there. So what I would say is I think we still, we are doing some tree arch work at the moment to look at cases. So to prioritise those cases where we've actually experienced a loss rather than an attempt just so that we can reduce it. But also I do think that we, given everything that's happened over the last couple of years, I think that if we take it from the interview stage, we can still look at some of those cases where we think that there is merit and that the loss is quite high. So if you, for example, when we've got sufficient evidence in terms of if we were using fraud act offence, we've got up to 12 months time bar. The others can be a bit more limited around council tax support, but it's from when we've got sufficient evidence really and up until the point where we've concluded the interview or concluded the investigation and invited the person in to make comments. I would argue that we could still investigate those cases where we thought there was merit. Excuse me, that's very clear. Thank you very much. I was just kind of linking in with Councillor Howell's points about where we give confidence to the rate payer that we're doing the right thing. I'm hoping we're not getting caught up by time. So I fully support your intentions, Peter, for extra staff if you'd like to do what you've got to do. Thank you. Councillor Howells. Thank you. Thank you very much. And just coming back to what Councillor Hales just said there, I think it should be what we do should also be a deterrent. And the only way it can be a deterrent is for other people to know by publicising what we actually do and the good work that's being done here. So I do strongly believe how you publicise it. That's a different ballgame and I'll leave other people to get it. But I do think we should be publicising the work that we're doing here and the people that we successfully take to court. And those people who we, for whatever reason, maybe cost or whatever reason, we come to an understanding with. That should be highlighted that we do actually follow this and we do look after our taxpayers and the wider public. Thank you. Just a quick question. This is fraud and theft by having corruption, but how does this cross-refer to any sort of whistleblowing policy? Because I would assume that whistleblowing could be quite an important source of initial investigation. But I can't see that there's a cross-reference to a whistleblowing policy or that people who do whistleblow won't be held accountable if perhaps their information is incorrect. I can answer that. We do have a separate whistleblowing policy. We've got the annexes where we refer to which they should be read in line with and whistleblowing is on there. I've just having a conversation with HR at the moment just because we think that we may need to just look and review that policy. But there should be, it is referred to in the annex at sea for 1.4 just to say that there is a whistleblowing policy. And I think we touch on it later on as well because we did have a discussion with stakeholders around this about how we protect people that actually come forward. And so it is something that was taken into consideration. I think it's under section 7 in the report. Bear with me, let me just go through it. Okay, so it's under raising concerns in the report. So it's 7.1 that we do encourage colleagues to raise any concerns that we have about issues or suspicions of fraud. And they can do that either through their line manager or any of the people that are detailed in the report. They can also do it via the whistleblowing policy and they can contact myself directly if they see that that's appropriate to do so. Do we, again, this is coming from my background, do we identify, identify the wrong word, measure the number of whistleblowing events and should that be brought to this audit committee along with the fraud as well? As we were just saying, we are intending to review the whistleblowing policy and bring it back to the next committee. I'm not entirely sure what it says in the whistleblowing policy on that. I may be wrong, we might know better than me or Jonathan, but certainly as a result of putting together this policy, it's been recognised that the whistleblowing policy is in need of a review. And we're intending to do that over the next few months and bring it back in July. I'm happy to speak on that. It's an interesting question about measuring the volume of whistleblowing cases. I think it's an interesting thing to report, but you do have to bear in mind that it's not always an easy thing to reflect about whether the whistleblowing policy is working well based on the volume of referrals. So it's something that we could definitely bring back. I mean, yeah, I'm fine that it's, I haven't spotted, 7.7 says a copy that whistleblowing policies are. It's cross-referenced, but yeah, I think it should be something that is when discussing fraud is identified, just that we can identify and this committee has visibility of whether there are whistleblowing events occurring or not, because if there aren't, that's fine. But if there are, then that could highlight other issues that we need to be cognizant of and aware for perhaps changes in approach. That's any question I have. Any questions from anybody else? So thanks, Tara, for your report and the committee is asked to approve the corporate fraud policy. Agreed? Okay. So that's been agreed. Moving on to agenda item nine, matters of topical interest, which is an opportunity for officers, auditors and members to raise matters of topical interest. Does anyone have any matters that they wish to raise? Copslehouse. Chairman, with regards to the decision not to use gas from Russia, does that have any impact with us commercially at all? Not only personally with regards to our building, but also any of the investments we've made. Sorry, I'll say it again, sorry. No, that's fine. That's fine, that's fine. With regards to the decision of the British government not to use Russian gas, does that have any effect on us personally with regards to this building or any other building, but also with regards to our investments? I think we need to, as far as I'm aware, none of our investments, a lot of our investments, obviously we've got a lot with Erming Street, but we do have some invested in non-fossil fuel type bonds, green bonds and green investments. So let me double check that and come back. Chairman, I have no problems with that whatsoever, but I do ask if that could be made sure that on the next time we meet, that is on the agenda. And if we do have any of those investments, maybe that should be highlighted so we can have a discussion about it. Thank you. Sorry Chairman, I probably should have raised this earlier. I just had a question occur to me after you closed the item, I suppose it relates to both 7 and 8. I just wondered how, for example, the item 1 RIPA and the following item 1 anti-theft fraud and bribery, how does that sort of intersect with the shared services? Is there a sort of clarity of jurisdiction there or is that something you could comment on? In other words, who is responsible for the integrity of the shared services? Is that a sensible question to ask? Certainly Roy would be able to answer in relation to RIPA because obviously he works for the shared service anyway. As regards the anti-fraud policy, that policy relates just to us and that isn't a shared service. So I couldn't particularly comment on what's happening in the city or hunts in relation to that. Okay, thank you. Chair, if you're happy, I will take that question in relation to RIPA. So if members actually turn to page 48 of the report documentation, at appendix 1, you will see the list of authorising officers. So the authorising officers who are listed there are both employees of South Cams District Council, as is the senior responsible officer who is an Ainsworth who is also the chief operating officer. So they are all direct employees of South Cams. Therefore shared services doesn't come into it. In terms of the RIPA monitoring officer role, that is obviously fulfilled by myself who is employed under a shared service arrangement. But certainly there's no conflicts or issues that have arisen in the time that I have been fulfilling that function since I've been with the council since 2016. But obviously it's something that we would keep an eye out on. But hopefully that answers the question. Yes, it does. Thank you very much. Okay, if there are no further comments, we'll go to the data of the next meeting. The next scheduled meeting is to be held on the 30th to 28th of July. However, as discussed earlier, we do need to schedule an extra meeting next week or at the earliest possible time to receive the 2018-19 account. And I understand that Janet Dawson can make the dates of the 6th and the 7th. But it is remiss of the committee members to ensure that they can make those times. So as discussed earlier, we'll send out a doodle poll and get a view of the committee members. Okay, so the 7th seems like it could be a possible date, but let's send the doodle poll and get an agreement. And then we'll get something in the diary with EY and Janet to present the 2018-19 accounts. Okay, thank you everybody. I'll conclude the meeting today. Thank you for your time.