 To say I'm buying a meat means I'm abusing animals is too direct, it's an indirect, it's indirect abuse of animals that when... So it's abuse of animals? Yes. No I love steak, I like steak because I like... Do you know about consciousness? You know when you brown a steak and a nice crust on it? You like the taste? You like pepper and some red wine, it's good. You like the taste of animal abuse? Love it. Come on, come have a chat. What's your name mate? Peter. Hello Peter. Hi. Are you happy to be filmed is that okay? Yeah. What did you think about this sign? The sign there. Did you agree or disagree with the sign that if you're not vegan you abuse animals? I don't understand it. Okay so I'm saying that if you're not a vegan, meaning you don't consciously pay for animals to be exploited and killed, that you abuse animals? Well I'm wondering whether you mean mammals. Mammals? Yeah. No I mean animals, all animals, so fish and avian birds. Yeah, what about oysters? Well let's start off... Before we go all the way down the chain to oysters, do you agree or disagree with the sign? I'm talking about all animals. Well no I don't agree with a sign that is so all-encompassing when I kill flies in my house. That's a good thing to do, I kill cockroaches in my house. That's a good thing to do, I keep a cat, it's an obligate carnivore. That's a good thing to do, I love my cat a hell of a lot. So there's a whole lot of those things. So when I see a sign like that, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make complete sense. Do you eat steak? Yeah, I love steak. So why don't we start there? Because you're going to flies and you're going to cockroaches and you're going to oysters and you're going to your cat. Oh no also bacon, I love bacon too. Okay so let's start there because it's a better place to start. Well no it's not a better place to start, it's mammal centric. No I want to start with those animals first. We can go down to insects that you might accidentally step on. I'm happy to do that. So when you pay for animals to be killed on your behalf do you think that that's abusing them? No. Okay why not? Because we've always done it. We've always done it, we've always killed each other. Humans have always killed each other. Not each other, I said animals. How long has murder been happening between humans? Oh I would not know. We've always done it. Do you believe that? War, how long has war been happening? Well I just don't know but did humans kill each other a million years ago? Well I could guarantee your tribes were warring with each other and murdering each other yeah? So when we were primates we were doing that. Well all I'm saying is your justification for killing animals was we've always done it. No humans have always done it. Humans have always done it. Humans have always done a lot of horrible things haven't we? I don't know that you can say humans have always killed other humans. Do you think that because we've done something traditionally that it's morally justified? Not always. For instance we in this society have had institutional racism for a very long time. We've always done it. But we have found a way to not do it. So well how does that justify how does we always have done it justify animal cruelty and abuse and killing but not justify racism? One of them is about diet isn't it? Well no this is about ethics. It extends to your diet but I'm talking about ethics. You say it's about ethics I'm saying it's about diet. Well we abuse and kill animals for clothing and we exploit them for other reasons as well. Yeah that's true we do do that for other things. So it's not just about diet? No but it is significantly about diet. Definitely. If we didn't eat animals we wouldn't be doing all the other things. Well not necessarily but maybe. I don't think we'd be doing those other things. If we didn't eat animals for a moral reason then we wouldn't exploit animals in other cases for moral reason. Well I think that the economic case wouldn't stack up. Well maybe. So like we as a vegan we don't it's not a diet veganism is a moral principle. I do know that veganism is a way of life it's not a diet. I absolutely get that. See I think vegetarianism is completely reasonable. Is a diet I don't think it's reasonable. Yeah I know you don't. Because these are egg laying hands. I completely understand that vegans do not accept vegetarians. Okay because these are bobby calves that have been murdered from the dairy industry. They're waste. I know I actually worked in an abattoir. Oh did you? Many years ago. Okay. Not a nice place to work. Don't like it. Still eat steak? Yep. You don't think there's anything wrong with it? No. You don't think there's anything wrong with robbing someone's life or so you can eat when you've got other options? Well when you say someone's life who's someone? This little baby here this mother here. Someone that's a cow. Exactly. So this is the mentality that leads us to exploit and kill each other and to kill animals? I don't agree with that. So why did white people enslave black people? Because they could. Because they had a mentality towards them? White people enslave black people. Why do humans enslave each other? Humans did it because it was an economic condition of humanity at a particular time in history. Okay. So why do we enslave animals? Well you see you're putting a premise for an argument that I don't accept. So you don't agree with humans exploiting and killing each other right? For some moral reason? I don't believe that slavery is a good thing to do. Okay. I don't believe in cannibalism. So why don't you think slavery is- I don't think in a country where cannibalism was right for two. Okay. Right either. Yeah. But they've always done it? Well no they didn't always do it. They haven't always eaten each other? No. You don't think there's ever been instances where people have cannibalistic tribes have gone out and killed and eaten each other? Well there's quite a degree of evidence that cannibalism is both ritualistic in some cases and in other cases is something that people say they do over there but we don't do. So it's a slur on other people. I'm trying to use your logic in another context to point out why it's contradictory. Yes but your problem is that you're saying they're someone and I'm saying they're not someone. I guarantee you that they are sentient beings who want to live. They have a consciousness. They have a consciousness. They have a consciousness. They experience pain. They want to avoid suffering. They get sad and hungry. There's pain. You know I'm quite certain they do. I live with animals. Okay. I know animals. I grew up with animals. You should be treating them cruelly. Why not? None of that that you're showing is acceptable. This is standard practice. Have you never slaughtered an animal? Yeah I've gone fishing. I've killed animals. I regret it. You regret fishing? Yeah I regret it a lot. Really? Oh blimey. Nothing like a bit of nice pan-fried fish. I dragged them out the ocean, suffocated them, stabbed them and I'm just for no reason really. They're not really sentient. Sorry? They're not sentient? No. Fish don't feel pain? No. Science will disagree with you? Well fish feel stimuli. Anyway we've gone to fish. We've gone down to fish. You're dealing with things with backbones. You think that these animals shouldn't be treated cruelly for some reason. What is that reason? Well because it's wrong to treat anything cruel. It's not cruel to bolt gun them in the skull and slash their throat open? Well I think there is a way to do it that isn't as cruel as the way they do it. There's cooler ways to kill of course. There's better and worse ways to kill. But do you think that even the best way it's cruel to rob someone of their life? No. You keep using someone I don't accept your premise. But do you think they shouldn't be treated cruelly for some reason? If they ain't someone who gives a fuck? Well again I don't accept someone. I think this is where the premise... They are arguing it falls down because the premise is different. Well I'm just saying you give these animals enough moral value that they shouldn't be treated cruelly. For some reason if they're not someone who cares? I'm frustrated because I came to talk about oysters. Yeah but you can go... No no no no. This is what people will try to do. They go to oysters where there's like... Maybe there's a debate whether they're sentient. Okay there's some nerve gangler. They couldn't feel pain they might not you know. But I want to start at cows that you eat steak with. Because this is... This is... Why do you do that? Why do you do that when you agree they shouldn't be treated cruelly? I actually think you're missing a really important point and a really important trick. Because if we start with oysters I can take you to another place. That's very interesting. That could be cruel. That people probably should think about. That maybe we would have more common ground with this stuff. Well I don't think... You're not prepared to because you are very very centered on animals with backbones. Well I just say I'm... That's an important point to look at. Not just backbones. Which animal doesn't have an octopus? Let's just say an octopus. They don't have a backbone yeah? No they don't. Yeah I think they're sentient and feel pain. I wouldn't want to hurt them either. Well you see that's... You need to look up the chain right from the oysters. You can go up to there and find an animal without a backbone. Right but you guys aren't showing anything about squids and octopuses. I'll tell you what. Most intelligent creatures. We do have a seafood bit here. We do have a seafood... It's a little bit down the line here. But anyway... Why are we stuck on cows? Because I want to talk about your steak first. You know you won't move from there. You think they're not someone but they shouldn't be treated cruelly. Which is a very contradictory statement. No I don't think it's contradictory at all. So why do you care about them at all? Since we put people in jail but we shouldn't treat them cruelly. Animals are innocent. Well animals they are A-innocent. Innocence doesn't come into it. Animals are innocent. It doesn't come into it. When you pay for animals... You're paying for these people to be cruel to animals. You know that right? You're paying for people to be cruel to animals. Well you know when you say I'm paying. I'm buying steak. You're paying for animal cruelty. Production that goes all the way down there. You pay people to stab and torture animals. I'd rather they didn't. But you pay for it so you're contradicting yourself in your own moral framework. I'm not contradicting myself in my own moral framework. Explain how or not. I can explain why not because I'm paying for the steak not for the cruelty. When you buy a steak you pay for cruelty. There's no escaping that. Okay can you see this thing? That you're holding. The minerals. The materials. Are you going to go there? Well explain the argument to me. Okay would you point at this microphone if I was speaking up against children being abused and go what about this microphone? It's called an appeal to hypocrisy. But you're understanding that. You're understanding that. Do you have any... What about this? Okay. There's cruelty in your iPad? Yep, cruelty in everything around here. Okay. So that's an appeal to futility. You're saying it's futile. You can't stop all cruelty. I might as well keep eating steak. That's an extremist thing and that's from what's veganism. It's extremist. It goes to an extreme. Show me the cruelty in this. Show me the cruelty. This is wool? Yeah. That was torn from an animal. I don't agree with wool. Probably half of it's plastic and half of it's cotton. But it was made by people who were treated appallingly in the making of it. Probably shirt manufacturers and bunglers. So you don't have a moral framework then. You think everything's cruel. You're wearing the same sort of clothes. Would you avoid being cruel to a dog? Because I have this microphone and you have this... Well, I'm saying... You're saying that morals are... Everything's immoral, basically. Is that what you're saying? No. I'm saying there's levels of immorality all around us. Exactly. Everywhere in everything we exist. And what is as direct as paying for the body of someone who wants to live? What is as direct as that? Well, let's see again. You key someone. Someone. Your premise is not acceptable. I won't reduce animals to no one so you can justify being abusive towards them. I won't reduce them to that, but that's why the argument can't exist. They don't want to lie. They don't want to die. These animals. They're trying to escape. Yeah, oysters probably don't work. This is a gas chamber. Yeah. This is what you pay for in Australia when you buy a pork. I'm aware of this. Okay. You're consciously paying for animals to suffer in a gas chamber. Well, I'm consciously paying for it. Well, you are now. I'm aware of it now, yes. Yeah. This is why I'm here. Yeah, I know that's why you're here. Before you wouldn't have known about this. Yeah. I've told you I worked in an aperture. But you said you didn't know about this. Well, that's a little detail. I know about this stuff. So you are conscious. You said you weren't conscious. Now you are. I don't spend my time being conscious. So you do consciously pay for animal abuse. That's all I'm trying to get. No, no, no. Now see, this is your just... I'm not going around in circles. I'm following your logic. A ridiculous thing to say. I'm not consciously paying for animal abuse. When you pay for steak, animals are being tortured and killed for that steak. I don't make the chain. You know animals have been tortured and killed for that steak. And there's nothing more direct. And by the way, do you think they're deliberately being tortured and killed? 100%. There has to be cruelty for mass production of animals to exist. Well, I don't know if that's true. Well, they rape them. They take their children from them. They dehorn them. They de-beak them. They cut their tails off. They snip their teeth out. Except your premise. This is cruel. This is cruel. Make it right. I'm saying this is standard practice. Know what? You're paying for animals to be abused. This is the whole premise of the debate. Yes, yes. Well, it's the premise of your debate. Are you sitting down here trying to justify this? Well, I came here to talk about oysters, but I still can't talk about oysters because... This is animal agriculture. You have to talk about everything that you could... This is the main thing. I was writing on a premise that I would come here to talk about oysters, and I did want to talk about all the other animals that we kill in existing at all. Right. And you just brought it right back to mammals and animals with backbones. To animal agriculture. That is very, very narrow. No, this is animal agriculture. This is 99% of the abuse and cruelty that happens. I won't eat animals with backbones. Why don't you say you should be vegan and stop paying for animal abuse? Because I don't want to be a vegan. So you want to pay for animal abuse? Veganism is very unhealthy and very extremist. It's nothing to do with health. I'm fine. I'm healthy. I could run you around the block. I just did a 100k run. How old are you? I'm 33. Come back in 30 years' time and do that. That's fucking pathetic. I know a world record-holding vegan runner who's 30 years older than me. So what? I'm saying they're healthier than you. Do you drink? Do you drink? How do you justify this abuse? You just had a go at me, right? You don't drink. Yeah, well I drink. I used to smoke and I eat meat. There's no possible way. I don't care about your health. I'm not going to run around a block. I don't care about your health. I beat you. And that's a silly thing for you to say. I care about the animals. I don't care about your health. Very silly though. I don't care about your health. But I'm saying you said something extremely silly. It's not about health for me. I know you're filming this. You will edit this in any way you like. It won't be edited. An extremely capable editor. It won't be edited. It can make me look like an idiot and I accept that. I won't be edited. I won't be editing this. I don't know what you're going to do with this. We won't be editing this. This will be completely... So what are you going to do with it? I'm just wanting you to admit that you're paying for animal abuse and you won't stop. Well I don't see why I should. I don't accept your premise. Well I'll tell you right now. You're paying for animal abuse and you won't stop because you don't care about animals. You think they're no one. Yep. And I got lured in here to talk about something and I wanted to talk about a different thing. Yeah. Right? Which you can't answer. So I think I've won my argument because you will not even engage on the topic. I sat down here at invitation to talk about. You won't engage on it. 99% of the abuse and cruelty of veganism. That's the extremism of veganism. This is extreme. This is extreme. This is extreme. What you pay for every single day is extreme. This is extreme. Not me trying to stop it. I haven't said you're wrong. I'm an animal rights person. Is that extreme? I have... That's... There are animal rights people who are not vegans. I don't give a fuck about them. Don't talk about me. I'm a vegan, consistent, morally consistent animal rights person. Okay. So, after Jesus Christ, you're the next great person on the world. No, I'm saying I don't pay for animals to be stabbed. It doesn't make me a great person. It doesn't make me a great person to oppose this horrible cruelty that makes you a horrible person to pay for this knowingly and you worked in an abattoir. You know... You can't avoid that. What do you expect me to do? Go back in time? You're like, oh, animals aren't someone. Who says that? Well, I do. Yeah, that's abusive. That's cruel. Most people, vast majority of people would say that. Most people didn't work in a slaughterhouse like you. You won't even sit down and engage in this conversation. Yeah, because you thought you'd come up all smart like oysters when animals have been tortured. This is the problem. You think I've come here to be smart. I've come here to engage sincerely and I haven't had a chance to have the discussion I wanted to have. Okay. There were some vegan activists in this mall. I had a long discussion with a much more polite young man who was extremely willing to engage and extremely willing to think about it. I actually was hoping he'd be around here somewhere. Why aren't you vegan then? Because he wanted to answer my question. Why aren't you vegan then? Because I don't... So it didn't work where he did, hey? So it's not going to work. Nothing anyone does is going to work with you. I don't have to try to be nice to you. That's the thing. I'm telling you you're an animal abuser. I'm telling you you're an animal abuser. That's what I'm telling you. You're missing the point again, right? You're missing the point. The point is I'm not trying to be polite to you. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just trying to tell you this is what's happening. I don't expect you to be polite to me. Why do you want me to wipe your bum for you? Well that's a very rude thing for you to say. Well I'm not here to be your parent. I'm here to tell you this is what's happening to animals. I have sons older than you. I don't care. You're not going to be my parent. You're going to teach them to abuse animals? What do you mean by that? Are you going to teach them to abuse animals, your children? Show them this. Show them this. They eat meat. Show them this. Show them this my friend. Why do I have to show them that? Show them that you don't care about this. Tell them you don't care about this. Look mate. They can see other stuff. I obviously give a fuck about these animals. Yeah? It's obvious to you. What? That you do? I care about this. No I think you care about yourself. Really? Yeah. I think you care about how self-righteous you can be. Not at all. I think that's what it is. You know I used to be a gang member? Well so what? You know I used to hurt people. So what? I mean I've now changed. Yeah? I'm doing my best to redeem myself. Yeah? And part of that is defending these animals. How do you get this redemption? I'm trying to help these animals who can't help. What is your redemption? I feel bad for what I've done in my past. Yeah but how does it... And I feel bad for paying for this for years. Yeah? You know I used to eat steak just like you. I'm not free from blood on my hands. Yeah? So I was paying for this. I feel bad. I'm trying to stop other people from paying for this as well. But I don't think you're going to get people to do that by hectoring them. By what? By hectoring them. I don't... Look you might not agree with my approach. Yeah. Because I'm making you feel maybe a bit uncomfortable here. I'm not being polite. I'm not even slightly uncomfortable. I'm just being dead set truthful with you how I feel about this and about your excuses for this. Well I don't know what you... So what? Yeah. Big deal. Anyway I haven't been able to engage in a topic I would like to engage in. The other young vegan I spoke to was very, very willing. What was his name? I can't remember his name. He's more polite to you? He was prepared. I don't care how polite he was to me. He was prepared to do. He was very persuasive. But he was also prepared to think about the question. For instance, what is the distinguishing point between plants and animals and fungi? Where does this thing... Where does it actually cut in? Consciousness, sentience. The desire to live and the feeling of suffering wanting to avoid that. Sentience, consciousness. Like what you're experiencing now. Right. So you're really saying that this is limited. See that's not veganism. That's about the level of neural complexity inherent in the animal. I think you matter because you're sentient and you're conscious right now. And you don't want to be hurt. You don't want to be enslaved. That's why you matter. I want you to extend that to these animals that you abuse. Well you're talking about some seafood. It's a matter of neural complexity, isn't it? A matter of simple sentience. Consciousness. Yeah but where do you define that? Where do I draw the line? When you're not sentient anymore. You don't matter. But how do you know? When you're brain-dead you don't matter. Carrots don't matter to me. What about animals without brains? Animals without brains? Are they sentient? Well that's my question. Do they have nerves? Do they feel pain? Do you think any kind of nerve makes you sentient? So why do you eat steak? Do you care about sentience? No I love steak. I like steak because I like... Do you care about consciousness? You know when you brown a steak and the nice crust on it? You like the taste? Black pepper and some red wine. You like the taste of animal abuse? Love it. So you obviously don't care about animals. So you only try to debate a vegan and go hey what about oysters? You don't really care about the topic. Actually I spoke to somebody about this a while ago. I wanted to have... I was hoping I'd get a follow up on where I was going but you obviously aren't engaging on the question. You don't care about animals. You're talking about how nice they taste to me. And it seems pointless. So look it's a shame we couldn't have had a more interesting discussion. I'll come by another time because you guys do this. I'll be back here. And there'll be other people doing this as well. Tomorrow. Maybe it'll be more nicer to you. There'll be other people doing it and that's the point. I'll be able to have a proper conversation with somebody who's prepared to engage on the topic. But you know good luck talking to other people. Stop being an animal abuser and go vegan. Yeah so look. Anyone out there who even tries to tell me they didn't like my approach. Go away. Go away because that man there was a conscious animal abuser. He already spoke to a polite vegan. I'm just here to tell him that he's an animal abuser and show him. All he wanted to tell me about is how nice the body of an innocent animal tasted. So this here is proof that it doesn't matter how you act. He spoke to a polite vegan. He spoke to me. And he still isn't willing to change. So there's always going to be people who aren't willing. That's the point. Now I prefer to be straight out with people. Look what's happening to these animals. And he wants to talk about this microphone and an oyster and all these other extraneous issues. He wasn't here to have a discussion about the true cruelty. The cruelty in his stake. So anyone out there who watched that and agrees with his position to justify animal abuse actually reflect and think who here's on the right side of justice here? Is it me? Am I being aggressive? Or is what happening to these animals aggressive and people like him who try to justify it is that aggressive? Think about it. He was a proud animal abuser. There's no question about it. He didn't give a f***.