 Hi So hi everybody I'm Jeff and this is Jess my colleague and friend from the other side of the world Some of you will have had the pleasure of meeting or at least interacting with Jess If you've worked with me in the past Then you'll probably have emails from her if not phone calls and some of you will have the pleasure of meeting in person But Jess helps me with all sorts of things basically keeping my my business going and keeping me going at times So you will have your spring set and we thought this is a great opportunity to have have a little chat Even though we're completely different time zones If this works well, maybe we'll have a few more of them and a little bit of an unscripted chat This one was something that Jess suggested around procrastination And whether that gets better or worse or easier or harder In a sort of pandemic lockdown situation So we'll we'll see how it goes Let us know whether you think it's good or not add your comments in the comments field And maybe we'll do some more So we finally got around to having a chat about procrastination Yes How long did it take? I don't know a week or so Yeah, that's not too bad. Everything's a little bit slower these days, isn't it? It is it is. Yeah So it'd be interesting to see what things are like on this because I always imagine I've never been to New Zealand. It's always on one of my places that I'd left to go Maybe maybe that'll never happen now. Who knows? But or maybe when it does, it'll mean even more Yeah, but I always associate that part of the world with being a lot more relaxed and slow and Just easier and not so rushed. So this is procrastination more of a thing over in New Zealand, do you think? That's a good question. I think there's definitely less of Yeah, a rush to do things which can be great And can't be frustrating if you want something done and someone's just so chilled about doing it It can take a while to happen Whether that's procrastination or just part of the nature of some Kiwi people I'm not sure But it's definitely It is it's like I remember first moving here and phoning up to get a uh tax number And I had a couple of questions. So called them and got through immediately To someone in New Zealand. They were super friendly really helpful And that was that and I just thought whoa, that is so different from being in the UK You'd be on hold for eight years and have to go through to someone and Might not get through to someone in the UK Um Yeah, that was quick. That was a good one. Um, there's a difference Between something just taking longer because you're going at a slower pace as to as opposed to putting something off and not not doing it You don't you you just get a Yeah, it's happening and it's just going at a slightly slower pace Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and I imagine it's because um There was no need to go at a faster pace for a long time because New Zealand only has really Become bigger and more I think connected to the rest of the world Since Lord of the Rings I've heard. Okay, it's really like expanded. So I think 20 30 years ago The population was small The life was quite slow. There wasn't a need to do things quickly. Um And now there probably is more especially in cities And as you've got more people coming from other countries who are used to a faster pace And I think that probably influences it a bit Yeah, I always find the procrastination thing interesting in the UK because we have It is it is cultural because I used to work in lots of different countries and you'd hear Oh when you're over here We just it's been 10 minutes late. That's just kind of cultural Um Or, you know, it will we'll have multiple things going or another culture. So, no, no once we start something we do it but Most people would associate a cup of tea and a queue with England, wouldn't they I think the UK Yeah, absolutely. And a cup of tea is a great way to to procrastinate I'm just gonna go make a brew You know, I mean we're having a chat over email, won't we about whether procrastination has increased or decreased? since Since the coronavirus pandemic and what's what's your instinct? Personally, uh, I have been procrastinating more Um, but it's almost more of a lower motivation Which I imagine is is still linked to procrastination um But I think it's a It's a creative fatigue Perhaps and all I can think is that My brain is taken up with Looking at Twitter and looking at the news and speaking with friends And trying to just figure out what's going on And actually sitting down at my laptop. There's not much brain space left to focus work and be creative and be motivated um so whether I guess that is a type of procrastination Um, but it's not necessarily because I don't Want to do it. It's just my brain is like no not today There's too much else for me to figure out um Yeah, I think that's a form of Of distraction, isn't it and Again, some of the people that I've been speaking to Said similar things but in a kind of different way when you said about motivation in that sense of Yeah, a lot of people would say to me like there's just not as much happening So it's a little bit like your story of you're phoning out the tax authority and getting that code really really quickly People just know that less stuff is happening now Um, most companies are putting out, you know, don't contact us because we're overwhelmed with calls and we're trying to prioritize this down the other Um, and so they just know that it's stuff isn't going to happen as quickly so that motivation Uh to start something is lower because your autonomy about getting it complete and the certain chances of success are lower So a lot of people would put off something if they don't think they can do it successfully If it has dependencies upon other people or parties that that just aren't as engaged bought in or have the capacity for it That's a big factor And the other thing I think you said there is that sort of brain capacity of well if i'm not Able to focus because i'm thinking about other things or i'm worried about other things Then like just my energy somewhere else and it might sound a little bit Over dramatic But the the as human being our body will naturally divert energy to The more important functions and at the moment when some when all these uncertainties around the air It it sounds over dramatic, but it's a sort of self preservation is the priority, right? You might not feel you be scared like in a in a really scary situation But there is a certain element of fear because we don't know what's going on And we don't know the impact it's going to have unless so many unanswered questions Um, I think that's where your body is naturally diverting those resources Yeah Some people I think will probably try and blank that out not necessarily consciously But there will be a little element of denial and just i'm just going to ignore that And i'm going to use my work as an option as an opportunity to divert my attention from what's going on out there Because I can control this so as opposed I'm a little bit lucky in a way and you know, I could I could channel my work into something that was largely within my control my writing Or I could go away and I could create a video or something like that Yeah, or I have my one-on-one coaching where I don't need any anyone else apart from the person that i'm coaching But if I was involved in a team for example, and there's lots of things going on And the organization is able isn't able to focus that would be a lot harder Mm-hmm Yeah, um, and I think part of Work, especially if you're used to working from home or working for yourself Focusing on your work is almost takes you back into normalcy and you can kind of what you said Ignore or forget about what else is going on in that moment because that's that is already part of your routine So I wonder the difference between people Who usually work from home versus people who don't um Having said that I usually work from home and I'm still finding it hard to work as normal Um, do you have any rituals? Sort of part of a normal routine Uh tea um Not really trying to like checking emails first start of the day um Actually, I've Funnily brought in more of a morning routine Students being in lockdown than before Um, which normally involves going for a walk, which I found so nice. Yeah, and then getting on my laptop Um, I found that's quite that that in all this people I've spoken to that is a really common pattern Of the people that have found it easier to get to keep in the zone Is they they stick to their routine Because it kind of gets them in that mindset of I'm going to work even if even if they're not used to working from home They'd go through a similar kind of routine that they would And you know, I see a lot of people I don't know whether you've been on the zoom course where people are still in their pajamas You know, they obviously haven't brushed their hair and that's fine. Yeah, but I don't think it necessarily helps them getting the mindset of Okay, and now I'm ready ready to to work Uh, whatever that work is and if you haven't got those normal routines I I'm not a big routine person I because I'm often staying in used to be staying in different hotels and I didn't have the same thing things um, but I found Doing that having that routine of a get up have a shower have a shave do my hair have some breakfast have a cup of tea Say hello to the kids and then walk to my office, which is in the garden That sort of gets me grounded And so I like you I've developed more of a routine because I've got more of a routine available to me You know rituals are a really powerful thing. I think Yeah, people say and I I think um people might find this really really weird and so I'm potentially about to embarrass myself, but If I'm sitting down and having having dinner I'm eating something. I'm eating a lasagna or something Now I think I'm quite thirsty About to have a drink um, if I pour Uh, if I pour from the jug of water into my glass of water Sometimes without realizing it I'll go back to eating and I haven't actually drunk the water But pouring the water into the jug Has a similar effect to me actually drinking it. I feel less thirsty and that's that's the ritual There's a lot of people Making really good, uh to ceremony if you like about opening the chocolate bar And taking their time over it and breaking it up into certain sections and getting the pleasure from the ritual as much as from from the Eating or the drinking. It might sound weird But that that's a really powerful thing for human beings that sense of ritual and and ceremony And take advantage of it. This is I guess what I'm saying there Yeah, and that that that does help but I am more of a morning person I always have been I've always achieved more in the morning than I have in the afternoons Hmm. Whereas, uh, I know a lot of people For mornings the worst time for them Yeah, fine as well. Yeah, that's that's part of your reason. I think plate your strengths is another it's another thing Yeah, and knowing that is is great. Um And I think I read somewhere of calling it the einstein hour almost knowing where you're the most focused in the day and trying to Turn off any distractions in that time. So If I feel like for most people it's morning or evening um Rather than in the afternoon I might be wrong. Um But there is something about that getting up Even getting straight on the computer for an hour Doing some things and then going away and then coming back. Um I'm definitely an evening Worker. Um and try to Shut my laptop down by 10 p.m. Because if I don't I'll have a second wind and Be going for hours. Um But actually working in the morning and evening works well with time difference. So that's nice and sort of in the day Not doing as much Isn't quite as awful But that notifications thing is really important as well. So I I it's taken me a while To to do this I had to be when I was working from home before I didn't really turn my notifications off But now I'm getting more notifications. I consciously do that So I can do that on my machine. I can do it on my phone. But tim urban who um He's got one of the the biggest ted talks on procrastination. It's hilarious. You haven't seen it watch it Um, he he tweeted the other day about how he makes sure his phone and whatever his other devices Are really difficult to get to So my phone's here. I could pick it up and I could start playing with it But the notifications aren't flashing so I don't get distracted by it But he would say that's still a distraction for him. If he's stuck He would just get his phone and start checking Twitter or whatever So he puts it somewhere really difficult to get to so it's actually A pain for him being quite lazy to get up Go over the other side of the room reach to the top of the cupboard and get it He knows I can't bother to do that. So I just won't and if you know what you're like If you know where your traps are you can sort of write the rules of the game To help you succeed if you like if that makes sense Yeah, yeah And that's a huge one. I think the notifications one and just having your phone there because sometimes I'll find You go to load a website and even if it doesn't load immediately I'm like, oh, let me just see what's going on on Instagram And then before you know, you get stuck in a hole and you look up and you're like, ah What was I doing? Yeah So getting rid of A phone is good and even like I deleted a couple of apps from my phone Okay, in the last just in the last couple of weeks social media things to Just because there's only so much you can see of other people Complaining about being locked down or trying to pretend to have a great time or baking bread And I thought actually this isn't helpful right now. Um, I don't need more just to consume more and more Yeah content I'm gonna I'm gonna say something that's potentially controversial and dangerous then. Um, That's over that's over egging it. But So one of the things that I think a lot of people do and we're doing we we like a jigsaw anyway, but we've been doing a lot of jigsaws That's what you do by get locked down by jigsaw. Um, and we're in the middle of a really difficult one Probably one of the most difficult ones we've done actually for a long time. Um, and You can be sitting there for ages looking at this thing. Oh, where does this go? Where's this goes? And you say, oh, no And you say, oh, that's it for the day and then you come back tomorrow the next day and you can immediately put eight pieces in That if you just sat there for another hour last night, you wouldn't have got And I think having that little bit of a breakdown again Picking up your phone checking Instagram for a couple of minutes. Not only is a bit of a Sort of reward for your brain if you like, but it does break your focus sometimes and that's a good thing Because then you can come back with it with a new burst of focus And that time boxing is really really useful. So Something that people It's even before this pandemic one of the one of the key things that I saw in people who would label themselves as a procrastinator And say is this when it gets down to it It's it's the sense of overwhelm that it's just too big a thing that they don't want to start it But actually if you break it down into smaller chunks or Just have small time boxes where it's not a case of I'm going to go until I finish it I'm going to do as much as I can in 20 minutes and that's it once 20 minutes is up my stock And setting some constraints, whether it's you know when I when I write I'm just going to write until I've written a thousand words or 500 words and that's it. I stop The those those constraints can be really liberating And enabling and yeah, watch yourself once you've hit them So do you think that's one of the having constraints or time boxes of breaking it down into small chunks Is one of the better Uh tools to have to just get started on something because I think that's a big thing with Procrastinating is if you can just get started and then often you'll get into it and you'll go for long within you You plan to so do you think breaking it down into smaller chunks is one of the best ways to just sort of get that Get those first five minutes going or is there any other things you you do just to I think the time boxing is really really really useful Um and whether it's uh, so you can actually make use of your devices They're set a timer on there or these little tomato timers the cooking time is in the kitchen. They're really useful. Um, but I did um And so this this this is branching off slightly, but it's it's very I think it's very related and I did quite a lot of work over the over the last couple years on on establishing habits Trying to help teams get into a habit of establishing habits Um and two of the Two of the books that that stand out for me on here one's called tiny habits and one's called atomic habits But they've both got kind of the same message which is do something really really really small like stupidly small And the example that they gave was flossing your teeth so, um Rather than say I'm going to floss my teeth every day and say I'm going to floss one tooth just one And that's a really achievable target for people. It's nowhere near overwhelming. It's not daunting and to be honest It's better than not flossing any When you get around to it, it's almost impossible for someone to stop after flossing just one And then everything after that is a bonus And I think that that sense of really really small habits, but also tying it into something that you already do So after I brush my teeth, which you've already established that habit. I will floss one tooth Those two tactics as well as setting a time limit on it is it really I think I found that to be really really helpful in just doing something that you know You should you should do and you do kind of want to do But you always find a reason not to Yeah And what do you think are the This is I'm hoping for me. You're going to say lots of things other benefits of procrastinating during a pandemic Um Well, I think one of the benefits that people are finding in the moment is actually a lot of the stuff that they thought was absolutely Crucial and had to get done And I think that's that's valued valued at an individual level and at an organizational level You know, I'll often go into an organization and talk to them about taking an agile approach to the way that they work And they think they've heard some buzzwords about agile and they think okay. That's that's kind of cool faster Time to mark it goes down. That's that's kind of good. Okay. All right engage people. Yeah, I'll have some of that But what what else it involves? They're not really that sure of and I've yet to find an organization that in order to be successful Shouldn't be cutting down on the number of stuff number of things that they've got ongoing They're all doing more pieces of work than they can do with the people they've got um, and they have this sort of multitasking Fallacy and actually if they stopped doing as much stuff, they'd get more stuff done But when I tell them that they kind of well, yeah, I get that Jeff that makes sense We'd love to be able to stop doing this stuff, but we can't Either and they've always got loads of reasons loads of excuses like we've got customers. We've got contracts You know, these people would have nothing to do lots of reasons And in their mind, it's it's a fact. It's it's a truth that they can't stop this stuff But now they've had to And the world hasn't ended Yeah, and it's kind of a oh Okay, so if we were quite ruthless in what we were doing We could do that And it would be beneficial And yet the people are some of their people are sort of taking a breath And it's again sounds quite dramatic, but quite a lot of the people I'm talking to Um, you know, they haven't had to go on there commute. So they've got an extra couple of hours to themselves And their mindset is significantly Better. Yeah, they've got all this other stuff going on But it's it's a bit of an eye-opener for people. Okay, so I don't need to do that stuff And it is a bit of a realization as to what's really important and I'm not talking philosophical Uh stuff like that, but actually being able to ruthlessly prioritize and see if I can only do x amount of stuff today That be and because some of those constraints have been enforced on people Either because like me I've got kids at home that need our attention um or it's uh People have been doing this for a while and they realize that if you're on a screen all day, you know Get exhausted quicker. So you can't do as much stuff So people have just realized that we need to take more Of a sustainable pace to this thing. It's Actually, I think that's one of the things that um At the moment where we are right now. So in the uk just four weeks into lockdown Did you guys were you guys in have you been locked down for longer than that? Yeah, almost four weeks like today behind you. I think okay. All right. So it's it's we've been taking it very Slow and there's there's not really been this sense of this is going to be a long time I think the government is starting to Trip feed that message into the population. I think to begin with it was it would have been a Shock to the system for for people to say, okay, it's going to be like this for a year I don't know whether it is well, but it would have been that would have been a massive Whoa, no, we can't cope with that. So a little bit of the time But that sense of short-termism we can do this for three weeks That level of sustainability now to a okay. It might be a few months. That's a different level of sustainability And this idea of keeping it for the long term the marathon not a sprint type thing and actually those are the words that My daughter's principal used this morning and so she's gone back to school today school at home Saying this is we're trying to do things at a sustainable level So they will be doing fewer lessons. The lessons will be shorter Because we're we're treating this as if this is a sort of medium to long-term thing if we're wrong What have we lost? But if we're wrong working at too fast a pace That's a bad thing And so yeah, that that sense of be kind to yourself In what you can realistically achieve um And play to your strengths Know what be be much more aware of your energy levels and It realized that it's okay to to take a break to Check out that's it. You know what I could sit here looking at a screen for the next hour, but I'm not going to be any used to anyone Whereas if I took a walk For 20 minutes and came back I'd be useful again And that's self-awareness. You're not going to have people being able to see you you know when I used to work at um bt I used to sit next to some people My colleagues Paul Nigel Steph They would they would become aware of me and you know when I'm Getting antsy or Tired or whatever and even if I didn't notice it. They'd say Jeff trying to go for a little break and I we haven't got that. I'm in my shed. No one's here looking over me saying Jeff. I think you need a break Yeah, so we need to be a little bit more self aware of these things Hmm Do you think um, so potentially staying locked down for longer? Well, it sounds like you The uk is going to stay in lockdown for Another few weeks at least did I hear? Yeah, definitely another three weeks at least. Yeah, yeah do you think um I know you said earlier about Feeling like you're kind of settling into it's becoming more normal now being sort of locked down and working from home Do you think now it's if it's locked down to being extended? People will procrastinate less as it becomes more normal and they have new routines or do you think It could be extended and it becomes like oh, this is just too much. What's the point? There's this much bigger thing and there's so much uncertainty Does it there's so much more important things happening in the world doesn't even matter if I Do this project or something and do you think there could be a big? Lack of motivation if lockdown keeps going on or do you think people will settle into a new normal and it'll be okay I think I saw a I don't think it's a meme. I'm out of touch with the terminology. I think it was just just an image But it was a funny image and it was the roller corona I don't know. It seems like a roller coaster just up and down up and down and loop the loops and things But how you know you can be oh, no, this is just this is dreadful. I can't cope with this anymore Oh, this is all right. It's quite good fun. Actually. Oh, no, there's despair and I think everyone is going through this sort of roller coaster of emotions I know that this is buzzword bingo, but um, because I don't think it's Everyone is is different in a fixed state So I don't think it's a case that I'm not a procrastinator I think there are days when I procrastinate more and days when I procrastinate less and I would say I would guess the same to you as well And part of that will be linked to my emotions in the day and how I'm feeling about the world and the messages that I've read in the news and what's going on with my friends and family and You know the state of the project, but I think that's quite normal Anyway, if you if you took this out of the pandemic There would be days when I got a lot more done and days when I felt I got nothing done I think that's quite normal, but I think it's just magnified right now so Being aware of where you are on that roller coaster and where but if you're working with other people where they are And saying, you know, that's all right today Not a great day. Um, but there's always tomorrow And I think yeah, we will develop that sense of normal I'd like to think that we'll we'll develop a greater sense of Self-awareness and collective self-awareness. I think we should come at this with a greater sense of empathy With our colleagues with our family with our friends and with other parts of the world and I think that's That's something that I think we we you know, we kind of need it um, yeah so I'm not saying this is a good thing. Don't get me wrong. It's But I think there's a lot of good that that can come out of it. So I think we will develop a new sense of normal In a way, I would say it's a sort of realization of what was Normal anyway, but we were kind of pretending wasn't Yeah, and it's probably highlighting things that weren't working before and I know people in this During these last few weeks who seem to have been really quite innovative and thinking about a post-covid World and what's going to happen and how businesses can kind of pivot and adapt and do different things and So I think you're right It's it's sort of highlighting what could be done better or that wasn't working and And that realization of or having more time and realizing that maybe we do want some more downtime in our lives And then how do we fit that into work going forward when things When we're allowed out Yeah, and and that's another thing. I don't that's I was kind of thinking about with procrastination Some people who those people who are being quite forward like trying to think in six months time any years time post-covid Coming up with there. There's been like hackathons. I know that different countries have been doing them to try and Figure out what's going to happen with businesses and webinars about the future. Um Which I Is great and it's awesome that people are Doing that and can think about that but I'm very much like My brain doesn't even want to go there right now and it's quite in the What is happening at the moment because it's still like a lot of A lot of things to figure out just for the now and for the next few days or the next few weeks um So what what do you think about that the people who are managing to Almost be okay. This is what's happening now, but I'm going to plan for all this stuff and I'm going to be extra creative and really is this is Yeah, what why am I not feeling like that? well But I think you've you've gone. I think you brought it in another really interesting uh dynamic there, which is the time frames so Yeah, the sense of overwhelm of you know, what do I need to do something for six months time 12 months time again? We have the sort of temporal displacement in the sense if I can't really imagine that I don't I don't want to put myself in that that time frame That's why I won't bother but if you can get a mixture of the here and now And the future then you get a sense of progress you get a sense of momentum against sense of completion while also Not just being too short termist And so making sure that you've got you know a couple of things on your on your to-do list that you definitely Can focus on today and also a little bit of time thinking about the future. I think is it is a pretty good mix Speaking personally, I think I was in a little bit of I was about to say denial, but I think also a little bit of naive optimism Perhaps a combination of the two and that I thought this will this will be over relatively quickly And so I I didn't really put a lot of effort into thinking about for example turning a lot of my training courses into online offerings Because I thought well once this is over. I didn't really see myself doing a lot of online training um, so I'm just gonna Let this one ride for a bit um, and it seems like that may well be um I was a bit too naive and optimistic around the time frames there And so if I do want to carry on training, maybe that is something I need to do But have I really done a lot on that? Not a lot. I have kind of procrastinated on that But what has helped me is thinking well What could be useful to me if we do come out of this quickly and if we don't So is there a sort of Venn diagram of if things change For the for the better really quickly then I would do this if things don't change very quickly I would do this. What's in the swing spot? What's in the middle? And so that's that's helped me get a little bit of More motivation where I might have procrastinated more um, but that took a little bit of Time out. Okay. Well, it's just Shut things down for a minute get creative and you get a white board or a piece of paper and actually literally draw a Venn diagram um, and that That sense of changing medium is also quite useful for a lot of people when they find themselves stuck If they're stuck at a screen typing on a keyboard Step away get a notepad and pen um Go for a walk and talking talking to a dictaphone these different Types of medium can just unblock you and you can find a different way Of making progress Hmm. Yeah um and Meditating that's what I feel something that's kind of that I've thought about we can't really go out So this is a great chance to sort of go in a little bit and I think people are doing that reassessing Their life is a bit of a big thing But reassessing at least sort of their work because that's a big thing that's changed. Um Their habits their day-to-day their beliefs a little bit. Um, and maybe that is to do with travel Um, and flights like that's something I've thought of flying back to the uk say once a year and and just looking at how the um The earth seems to be a little bit better with us all inside and thinking. Okay. Do when things When we can fly again, do I want to be flying? as often um So there's something kind of nice about this time of being able to reflect A bit that we've all sort of been forced to do and that can be quite uncomfortable um Which maybe is another reason why some people are thinking a lot about the future and just doing stuff So they don't have to think about that. Um when your stuff got home more and you're not going out in the evening You're not doing as much. You're forced A bit more to go in um And I wonder if that's a reason some people are Not procrastinating and doing a lot still um doing online courses and learning, you know Getting on duolingo and learning a language and having zoom quizzes every night and things because it's We still crave destruction We do and you know, some of us are some of us are I'd say luckier and that might not be the right word But just have different circumstances, right? So, um It's certainly finding some time for a little bit of meditation during the day with a one-year-old is tough And you know a lot of people don't have as much quiet time and or space um So I know You've you've you've you've shared with people Before and you know if you've got a lot of people in the same space it's quite hard to Not impossible and there's always times when you can you can make that space uh taking the dog for a walk if you've got a dog um Putting some earphones in and listening to some something quiet that it's it's possible and it doesn't have to be you know as as Big a deal as as you might make it in terms of you know Completely reevaluating your life values and what kind of person you want to be and things like that It could just be a really useful tool for developing that self-awareness So if you're finding yourself Almost beating yourself up mentally that you're not making progress Just just stop Take a little bit of time and just think about what's going on for you. What messages are you giving yourself? What what are you unconsciously telling yourself about the task? What what do you what do you unconsciously believe about yourself? You know, what what are you what are you telling yourself about the kind of person that you are and and the kind of standards that you're setting for this task? for example, and if you almost have that Silent conversation with yourself it can make it a little bit easier to to question and change some of those assumptions change some of those messages to enable you to make some more progress But it does require that that a little bit of Calm that a little bit of quiet. So however you can engineer that You've got your hours exercise for the day or If you can put some put some earplugs in and just close your eyes for for five minutes or something then that could be a really useful habit to get into Yeah, and doesn't sorry It doesn't have to be when when things are getting tough either you can do that as a reflection of you know How i've been successful today give yourself the credit where it's due show yourself a little bit of self appreciation You know i managed to do this today even if it wasn't to the standard you wanted to or You know think what what would you say to someone that you really really cared about if they were trying to do something That was really really difficult you praise them for their effort you praise them for the progress that you've made So why wouldn't you give yourself that same level of praise and credit? Yeah, yeah, which is harder to do because for some reason we like to be hard on ourselves, don't we? Yeah yeah Yeah, and I did um I was actually using this technique quite a lot recently with with some of my coaching clients for lots of different reasons But this this idea of the inner boardroom Um, where it's in your head You've got this this this group of people who are to some degree guiding you mentoring you influencing you advising you Um, they could be real. You know, it could be your parents your friends Your colleagues and some old school friends. Uh, they could be fictional. You could have a no Winston Churchill in there. You could have Uh, chicken do her and in there Um, did I say her name right? Lucinda. Lucinda, um She's come out of this quite well I think a lot of people around the world are looking quite favorably on her um, but less on the side But yeah, anybody who you think, you know, you've got a lot of respect for you got a lot of time for And who would have your best interests at heart almost have them sitting around this imaginary boardroom in your head and just asking them so What advice would you give me right now? What would you say to me right now? um, and Taking some time out to think would they be would they be harsh on me? Would they be telling me, you know, you know, you need to step this up. You could do a little bit more Maybe they would Um, maybe they'd say, okay. Yeah, you could do some more but give yourself a little bit of credit for what you have done And I think people find that found that really really useful if you've got someone in there who you know is a classic Doer, you know, they just get on with stuff And what would they do and how would they go about it? And how could you sort of borrow some of their traits as it were? I quite I quite like that idea That's nice because it's almost getting out of your own head a bit and taking a step back which I think sometimes when you're Especially with procrastination, you're just thinking I need to do this. I've got to do this. Why can't I do it? I'm just going to go and clean the kitchen or I'm going to do something else and you can get quite In your head. So actually that's a great technique to just Step back see the bigger picture And that probably takes some pressure off as well and and helps you to prioritize like kind of what you said earlier like if you're you know You've only got maybe a certain Time throughout the day that you're going to be focused. What are you going to focus on? Yeah I'm I'm following your lead here. It's almost like you're leading me down a path. It's a good path But you said the bigger picture Yeah, that's another really useful tool for people who do procrastinate is well, what is my bigger picture and it doesn't have to be You know that grand I've got this life goal this big five-year plan But it could be you know your values. It could be something you do want to achieve And asking yourself is what I'm doing right now or what I'm not doing right now getting me closer to that goal and Just whether it's literally having that written on a piece of paper on your wall or a little The reminder on your trello board or what have you this is what I'm aiming for This is my this is my and tell people about it as well That that increases that sense of accountability and and want to achieve Is if you know that you know other people are aware that you're working towards that Yeah um And talking of that sort of accountability for people who Don't work at home on their own usually um I'm not in this category But do you have any is there any advice or thoughts for people who who do find it really hard to do something without someone else in the room Even if they're not verbalizing Um a deadline or accountability. They're just at least their their presence alone Uh reminding someone to do the work. Is there anything that can be done for someone who's on their own and thinks I'm just not gonna work. This is great. I'm at home. I'm gonna go watch netflix. I'm gonna go Play an xbox. I'm gonna cook um It's that self if you don't have that self discipline Yeah, and I think that's uh, that's that's that's a key thing that I you know I'd spend a lot of time working on that I don't have that self discipline because I think That just that phrase I don't have that self discipline can be quite a limiting belief Yeah, and I'm sure, you know, I haven't yet met anybody. I don't think That doesn't have a good deal of self discipline in the right circumstances Now it could be to do with something that they're really really passionate about really really interested in, you know I'm sure they just use your example that I'm going to go play netflix Watch netflix or play the xbox as that person never binge watch a whole series That's that's that's self discipline To a degree, right? You know, it has that person really, you know, achieved something Completed a really difficult game on the xbox that's self discipline to a degree So that is a that is a skill that they have in the right circumstances Then the case then once you've appreciated that okay in the right circumstances I can be self disciplined is how can I then manufacture the circumstances to be more successful and more self disciplined in more circumstances And so whatever that is whether it's gamification whether it's Interest levels, whether it's reward whether it's comfort whatever it is then extrapolating those circumstances and replicating them, but they have to want to achieve What they need to be self disciplined about Yeah and This is gonna That that sense of that bigger picture that why what's in it for me What what would be different if I've achieved this and is it worth it? and I can't remember who Who the quote was Is some famous sports coach anyway Sometimes there's two forms of pain in the world There's the pain of disappointment and there's the pain of self discipline And if you if you if you can tolerate the the latter, you'll never achieve you'll never feel the former So if you can Yeah, the benefit of the pain of self discipline Is that you'll never have that pain of disappointment I think that that translates really really well to the sporting environment And perhaps it's not quite as tangible in the personal development. Yeah, but it's real Hmm, and I guess it's like it's another muscle, right? The more you practice Self-discipline the the easier it becomes And or the more you see wow, I can actually achieve this if I sit down and do it Um And that's it's yeah, it's not I am self-disciplined or I'm not Hmm. So that's that muscle thing is, you know, it's not that I have that muscle or I don't it's how developed is it and the more you Yeah, so maybe I'm a two out of ten right now And success for me is to get to three out of ten. Well, what is three out of ten? They're like, you know, I can I can focus for 10 minutes on a task Yeah And now to you that that might 10 minutes seriously Jeff But to me that's that's a big improvement And if I can get to 10 minutes I can celebrate that I can I can say that's great I give myself a pat on the back. I can go and watch an episode of something on Netflix tiger king And again now my next challenge is to get from a three to a four. What does that mean? And just that gradual sense of improvement again writing the rules of the game to increase my chances of success rewarding myself for these small incremental gains Um and not comparing myself to anybody else just my own personal best if you like Yeah, because it's it's all we're all just navigating this new new territory Um for some people that's a bit different for other people. It's really different. Um, and especially when you're throwing in technology, maybe you you're You don't do zoom calls ever or you don't really Skype that much. So that's just a whole new thing and then having kids at home Um And so I think it's kind of what you said of being kind to yourself and almost going with your energy of the day if you If you feel really um, you're in the zone you're working you might smash out hours and get loads done The next day you might not and that's okay and rather fighting that and kind of beating yourself up For for failing or for not doing it. Um, it's probably more beneficial to just Go with that feeling a bit more. Um If your job allows Especially here when a lot where a lot of people work in tourism They are just not working anymore because there is not a job. So they're at home Doing whatever they want. Um, and I feel like that's given me because I still have have less work than usual But still have work to do. I almost feel envious of people who Don't have to do any work and it's like oh, they're just you know doing some crafting and going for bike rides and Whatever they want and I kind of want to do that. So I don't want to work and maybe it's like a childish Thing of everyone's getting holiday and and I know it's not it's not a holiday and a lot of people Are struggling who are in that position? um But I feel like that Not all the time but has played played a part maybe even subconsciously in my uh pandemic procrastination Yeah, I know that that goes back. I mean you say it's a childish thing, but it's a timeless thing of that The grass is always greener Yeah, and yeah, it might sound try and you might not believe me But there are a lot of people who in in that scenario think you know, I wish I had a job to give me some focus on a bit board And so no matter what situation you're in It always looks like someone else have got it better, especially if you're looking on instagram Yeah Which I deleted for that reason That fear of missing out Yeah, but yeah, and that reframing of well, how might I be the lucky one? Yeah, and I do I feel that I think oh that's great that I've got at least a few hours of day To work and it is a focus and that is something to be doing. Um It's interesting. It's it's definitely more More time to think At the moment, which is I think lots of different things popping up and different questions and different emotions So it's just navigating that without going totally mad Yeah, so I think to come back I think a good way of sort of summarizing there is to come back to your meditation point is that All these thoughts are going on and some of those thoughts can be really really positive Some of them can be less positive and just being more mindful about them and channeling them to their most appropriate use I think is It's probably the key to not just procrastination, but a but a lot of self-management throughout throughout this time in general Yeah, totally. I think doing it when you're Not in a crisis means that when you are in a crisis, you can handle it a little bit better Hmm cool. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you