 We're going to play a little bit of ping-pong in the question, so the first question will go to Tom and then we'll go to Christopher to answer it after, and then go to Monica and then go to Theresa to answer the same question. We'll go to the next question and then I'll start with Christopher and then I'll go to Monica and then I'll go to Monica and then I'll go to Theresa. Everybody got it? I'm just going to be worried about reading what's on this card here. This will give us a little bit of time as our team over there deciphered the writing on those cards and we'll see if they're able to read mine because mine's like stick and scratch, so good luck. Alright, so Tom, Santa Cruz County ages 65 to 84 population. Are we going to do introductions first? Sorry, maybe we should start with the introduction. Thank you for that. So we'll do one minute of introductions, or two minutes of introductions, and then after that we'll have to provide two minutes of closing remarks when we get to that point. Alright, so Tom, would you like to start? My name's Tom Decker. I'm running for Supervisor in the Fifth District. My wife and I, Marie, live in Ben Lohman. We have six children. We have 19 grandchildren. I've been building affordable homes for 44 years. And after the fire, four years ago, we decided we'd try to help the folks here and it's been an adventure. We discovered at first hand how difficult it is to build anything in this county, anything at all, and I've been doing this an awful long time. So because of that, I got to look at the county services and what they provide for seniors, for the people that live here, and I find that the services are impressively lacking, certainly in the Fifth District. So I am running to represent everyone here, see if we can make our government more efficient, more responsible to us, and I appreciate your vote. Good afternoon. My name is Monica Martinez and I'm running for Fifth District Supervisor. I'll never forget a moment in 2021. Like most people here, my family had been sheltered in place for almost a year. I have the CZU evacuation. I was working from home leading a large healthcare organization through a pandemic while my kids were distance learning kindergarten and first grade, and we were in the middle of a three day power outage. I was exhausted. I felt abandoned and I knew I needed to step up to do something. You see, I've been a public servant my entire life. It runs in my family. My dad's a retired fire captain, my mom's a retired elementary school teacher, and making a difference was a given in my family. I went to Cal Poly to get my bachelor's in political science and USC to get my master's in public administration, and since then I've dedicated my career to giving a voice to people who've been left behind. This work led me to Santa Cruz County, where I'm a Felton resident, back in 2010, and since then I've been leading change across the county. For the last decade, I've been the CEO of Encompass Community Services, our county's largest health and human services nonprofit, where I manage a $35 million budget. I have a workforce of 400 people, and we address issues like mental health, substance use disorder, affordable housing, and early childhood education. I've used public funding to navigate some of the most complex challenges facing our community, so I know how public systems can support a community and how they can also fail us. And this is why I'm the right candidate at the right time for the 5th district. Our district deserves more, and I'm ready to use my deep experience to bring relief to 5th district residents. But you don't have to take my word for it. I've received countless endorsements from Labor, Democratic Clubs, the Deputy Sheriff's Association, and the Sheriff Jim Hart, former Assemblymember Mark Stone, Supervisor Bruce McPherson, and groups like SEIU 2015, which is in-home health care providers. I believe it's not just enough to survive in this community. We deserve to thrive, and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Hello, my name is Theresa Bond, and I've lived up on the summit in unincorporated Santa Cruz County for 19-plus years. I have two young adult children, one that graduated from UCSC in 2022, and another one that is a sophomore in college. I've been elected three terms, two terms to my elementary school district, Lakeside Elementary, that is a mountain school. And now I sit on the Luzgaro Saratoga Union High School District Board. I have decades of experience working in the Silicon Valley as an engineer and equality manager, and I'd like to take a look at our budget and our priorities with more of a business acumen than what's currently happening. I'd like to see us do scorecards and look at progress regularly on how we are progressing on some of the highest priorities for our county. I have 60 seconds left and I'm a nervous speaker, so I have lived experience. I'm 62 years old and I'm proud of it. My husband has been on disability. He had two spinal surgeries in 2019. I have been the parent, the mother, and the wife who has been in the hospital and demanded that he be able to go to rehab instead of being sent home. Because once someone is sent home on this mountain, the type of care that they get if they can get a caregiver to come to the home to give them physical therapy is someone who may be making minimum wage. There's a huge problem in our county regarding these services. I've relied on gray bears and I've donated back all the equipment that we got from Gary Bear so my husband could not walk. So I've lived this experience and having done that, I think that that will give me a perspective a bit different from just running the program, but understanding the actual trials that someone goes to when you are in the situation. Thank you. I always feel so tall when the tables are down here. So good afternoon. My name is Christopher Bradford. I live here in the 5th district and I'm running for supervisor because what happens here is important to me and it's important to my family. I come from a military family and I spent my entire life traveling around and being able to put down roots here the way that my family and I have has meant so much to us. And so when those roots were threatened, when our house was burned in the fire recently, it made it clear to me how important it is that we have people in government who fight to make sure that we all have stability. We all have the ability to age in place, to grow, to live in love in the places where we've invested. I'm a small business owner, software engineer and a support engineer and I like to take a data driven practical approach to making change. I've been fighting for my own community for a while now. I fought for clean water, for safe water over in Boulder Creek. I fought for fire mitigation and to get people home who've lost their homes. And thank you for the warning. I've got 60 seconds left. And I think it's incredibly important we have someone in position who's experienced how difficult it is to deal directly with the county as a citizen and knows how to take that experience and put it to work. You know, we have to organize, we have to come together as a community to make the kind of change that needs to happen in our county change. And I think I'm the right person in the moment. I'm the best person to drive this change forward because I'm the tip of the spear. This is a very grassroots campaign. Everyone who's behind me, who's endorsed me as a neighbor is a friend. It's your school teacher. It's your firefighters. It's your fire chiefs, right? It's the folks that are around you who already invest in your community. And they've gotten with me and behind me to drive this thing forward. And I move and represent them and you in the struggle to improve the state that we're experiencing every day with county government. Thank you very much. So Santa Cruz County ages 65 to 84 population has grown 90% over the last decade. Which is the fastest of any other county all in California. And the fastest of track business. How do you perceive meeting the needs of these older adults? We'll start with Tom. And looking at what the county has done so far and trying to do. I don't think they're anywhere near understanding the gravity of this. And I think the way to work with the seniors is the way I can maybe look at the example from my church. Every Sunday we have a sort of a meeting of the group and say, okay, of the seniors that are in our church, who needs what? And usually it's nothing, but maybe Sister Jones needs that. Maybe Brother Smith needs a load of wood like that. And we deal with it with our own little community. And I see other churches that do the same. But what about people who are not in churches, who are not in clubs, who are not here? I think the county's a long way from setting up that kind of outreach. I would encourage to replicate what's already working because your neighbor is going to be able to get to you much sooner than the county worker who gets an email on Thursday to come out on Monday to see how you're doing. Your neighbor will know right away. And that's the way to do it. You build that community one by one. I know the county and the government, their hearts are in the right place. But we all know that if we need help, they always say, well, the cop is there's never a cop around when you need one, which is kind of true. There's somewhere else, but your neighbor's around. And that's what we want to build. That sort of community, when that's done through networks, Gray Bears is a great example. We love Gray Bears. And what they've done, that's all volunteer. And others come along and do it because when you realize someone is volunteering their time and effort, you give them a break. My mother at 93 was delivering meals on wheels to women who were in their 60s because she had that instinct. And let us hope that we can do that as well. Okay, so I was born in Aniston, Alabama and in a culture that reveres its elders, but also in a place that had no resources for those same elders. And so where I was born, when older folks, aged folks needed help, you stepped up and you took care of business. They would call someone from the neighborhood down. I can't tell you how many times when I was visiting my grandmother, my mother would farm me and my brothers out to go fix things for Mrs. Johnson down the street, to go move this furniture for this person. At the community level, it's important that we use connections, but it's not enough. We need to have three pillars to have a real safety net for seniors and for everyone else. A lot of times the seniors are a canary in the coal mine. You can see how well a safety net has been built out by how well the seniors in the area are doing. You have to have an effective community with real communication. You have to have nonprofits that are engaged. You have to have a government that supports both of those other pillars. So we have to make sure that we're funding at the county level excellent community services like the one he runs, like the Mountain Resources Center. We have to make sure that the people who are already doing the work have the resources they need to connect. We have to make sure we're communicating and meeting seniors where they are. Posting an announcement about a great service on the county website isn't enough. We're not all on the internet every day, right? So you have to meet people where they are and communicate in a practical way. And then finally we have to encourage community engagement. Like Dom said, knowing your neighbor is huge and it's important. And some folks are proud. They don't want to ask for help. They don't want to go to county services for help. But they may be comfortable asking you. So if we take care of those three pillars, I think we'll be able to close the gap and make our safety net a little tighter and make a huge difference in what's happening with our seniors as we move along. Thank you. So I want to start off by saying that the fact is correct. Seniors are the fastest growing population in this county and also the fastest growing population across the state of California. And we see a huge disparity in the governor's priorities and the state budget priorities when it comes to senior funding versus other things like families and children and school and things like that. It's not matching up. And this has been a historic disparity for a very, very long time. So I think one of the roles of the county supervisor is to advocate at the state level to make sure that seniors programs and senior services get their fair share because they have a huge weight to carry. I also want to make sure that all of the plans that come out of the Santa Cruz County are working together to support seniors' needs. I want to work on all of our affordable housing projects and make sure that they are inclusive of seniors' needs, that they're accessible, that they're in close proximity to health care services and rely on public transit and have public transit options close by. The county manages its own health care clinics and we need to make sure that our county staff are trained and specialized needs for seniors and senior services and senior health care needs. And that's something that the county supervisor can help to prioritize. I want to increase funding for transit options for things like the metro, para-cruise. I'm a big supporter of passenger rail, electric passenger rail, so we have more public transit options. Where possible, I want to see an increase in local funding to support senior centers, senior programs, senior centers like this one, like the one in San Lorenzo Valley. And then finally, I think we recognize that seniors are incredibly vulnerable and incredibly isolated when it comes to emergency response. So we need to make sure that all our emergency preparedness plans take into account this fast-growing population of seniors so we can make sure to get to the seniors when a disaster strikes. Thank you. Monica is exactly right. We are unfunded. When I looked at the numbers, it looks like there's about one million that goes to our senior groups out of the 1.4 billion that comes to the county. So we need to reassess what the common goods are, which are to support this community. The isolation issue is tragic. For folks who do not live in the urban area, being able to get down off of, out of their area into programs is fairly impossible today. We need to increase that transportation and fund it. Those are living on a fixed income. I mean, I have a bill right now from Sutter Health that I need to pay. And my doctor said, oh, just take that person to the emergency room again. I don't know about you guys, but I think twice about going to the emergency room unless it's a huge issue because that bill that's going to come later is frightening. Laws that we need to know about for 2024, there's a new law about ambulances. So we need to look that up and understand that. They no longer can gouge you if you need to take an ambulance to the hospital. My son took one from UCSC campus to Dominican Hospital and got a bill for $4,500. He is now 24 years old. He was 22 when he got that bill, and I made him figure out how to pay that bill on his insurance. And he fought it four times before he finally ended up paying $300. So the cost of living here on a fixed income with our home insurance now tripled, our homeowner's insurance now tripled, our utilities going up. We are taxpayers. We need to take a look at the budget. And from a county perspective, we need to look at it and say what the common goods are and what the population dictates for allocation of those funds. Thank you. I think honesty is important, especially from politicians. I don't have any plans to stop that from happening. I heard about that quite recently, and there's a large engine driving the decision that was made there. Your individual supervisor may not be able to stop something like that from happening, but what they can do is make sure that they're running a transparent and informative administration so that you know this stuff is happening in time to get in front of it. This is one of those things, like many things that I've heard while attending meetings for the Board of County supervisors, or just keeping track of what's happening politically that I didn't find out about until the decision had been made. It's unfortunate, because I might have had an opportunity to present some ideas. Maybe the community could have come together and convinced them to make a different choice. But oftentimes, the communities that need the most are the least heard, and that's what I'm offering. I think it's important we have that communication so that when things like this do happen, we're ready to act. Thank you. I'm glad, Christo. He said I could do it. All right. I'm paying for this mic. I'm glad Christo forgot that question, because my answer was, hmm, what do I know about that? If you go to my website, and my grandchildren who wrote and helped me write the website said, no grandpa, nobody goes to websites. They go, they look at the pictures, but they don't read the words. But if you go to my website and talk about how I will deal with things when I'm the supervisor, because I don't know what the problems of the Fifth District are. I know some of them. I'm learning more all the time, and I don't know what they will be, just like Bruce McPherson, who's been our supervisor for three terms. He had no plans for COVID and 1,100 homes being burned down at the same time. He had no plan for that. So my approach will be this. When a new proposal or idea comes before me, I'll say, is this something that we really need? Is this something that the county really needs? And if we're able to be convinced, I and the other supervisors that something we really need, then my next question will be, now, is this something that we can pay for? Is this something that the county can do? Or is it something that maybe the private sector can do it for less, or more efficiently, with less hassle? And if so, let's go that route. But if the answer is no, only the county can do perform this service, then the question will be, is it something that we can pay for from the existing budget? No new bonds, no new taxes. And if the decision is yes, let us pay for this thing and not do this service, that's fine as well. That's the only way to deal with it, because no one knows what's going to come our way. But we need to have a plan on how to deal with that. And that's how I will deal with that. So as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm currently the CEO of Encompass Community Services. It's the largest health and human services nonprofit in our county, and we have about 40 locations across the county. So I understand the value of having sites across our county, how important having solid leases are, reliable leases are for community-based organizations, and how threatening it can be if you might potentially lose a spot. So I have a lot of compassion for the challenge that's happening here between the Live Oak Senior Center and the Live Oak School District. So one thing that I want to think about if I was in charge, what I'd be doing is thinking about, you know, first of all, I know that housing takes a long time to build, because I'm also working on building affordable housing projects across the county. So we have a timeline, we have a long road ahead, so let's buy ourselves some time, keep the Live Oak Senior Center in its place, don't displace it while everybody's getting their housing finances in place, right, and try to figure out how we're going to negotiate a new solution. I would, you know, this isn't in the fifth district, this isn't in the first district, but I would work with my colleagues on the board and the first district supervisor to help bring the parties to the table and to help to negotiate a win-win solution. There are some solutions, you know, we could potentially help the Live Oak Senior Center find a different place and help fund them to get into a new place. We can help the Live Oak School District find a different place to build their housing. But I really take an approach where we get creative, we assume good intent, because these are both two really valuable institutions in our county, and we work slowly and really thoughtfully towards a solution without, you know, throwing the baby out of the bathwater without displacing the Senior Center while a plan is being developed. So that's something that I would really want to, that sort of approach is the approach that I would bring if I was elected a supervisor. Thank you. I work in education as a trustee, and teacher housing is constantly on our radar, as well as pay. Next week I'm going to visit a housing that is in place in the Mountain View Wiseman District. One of the things that I do know is it needs to be inclusive. It needs to be housing for all stages and all ages. And I've seen some really fabulous developments in other areas of California that include, for instance, a preschool that's built into them. They're townhomes. At the cul-de-sac of the townhome there's a playground, and one building is senior housing. I happened to be there when preschool was letting out, and I saw the kids getting picked up by what looked like grandparents. So I see inclusive housing is what we need to look at. And when you build that, you can put things in it that represent all ages. So possibly the Senior Center could still be part of that, and this could include some senior housing. So I'm just not looking at it and supporting one group. The age gap with the high price of housing is affecting everyone. Thank you. This first question goes to Monica. Nine of the 15 senior service programs have had their funding eliminated completely in the most recent county core community programs process. Despite seniors growing faster than any king in San Cruz County, adjusted circulation, county funding for senior programs was reduced by more than $430,000 since 2017. What if anything would you do to address it? Ray, you gave me this question first. Ray and I have worked on this issue for a decade. So I've sat on the core steering committee for a number of years. For folks understanding, core is about a $6 million carve-out from the county budget general fund to go to community-based organizations. It's something that's kind of unique to Santa Cruz County, but also we have so much need in this county in such a small county budget that it doesn't meet the full needs of what gets proposed for core funding. So because of that, I'm very familiar with the funding source. And the number one thing that I'll advocate as supervisor is to increase the pot of funding. It seems like there's a lot of dialogue about how do we slice and dice the $6 million? Well, it's not enough. So how do we carve out even more general funds to support organizations like senior organizations and like the many other nonprofits that apply for the funding? For the record and compass also received a huge cut from the core funding when this last RFP happened. This is an issue that hits the fifth district really specifically because not a single community-based organization in San Lorenzo Valley got core funding as a result of the new funding distribution. And so it's not a perfect process. And I think that we need to look at the process. There's not a lot we can do to change like the contracts that are in place for this fiscal year. But now is the time to start giving feedback and input and demanding changes for the next RFP process. And we know that there's room for improvement. We know that there are communities that got left behind like senior services, like the San Lorenzo Valley. We know that the pot of money wasn't adequate. We know that there are organizations that didn't have the capacity to fill out this long contract process because they're very small or they rely on volunteers to fill out the applications. So we need to do more capacity building. We need to do more community engagement. And we need to make sure that the core process actually meets the needs of the community. And this is something I feel like I have a lot of expertise in and I'll bring that voice as the next supervisor. Thank you. We need more money. That's basically it. How we're going to get more money is the big question. We have some measures that are on our ballot that we already received this week. I don't see this on it. Do you? I think that is one of the things that we need to make very clear to our board of supervisors is that we don't we aren't registered. We aren't even on their horizon for something like this. We have many, many needs, but this is a priority also. And it's a huge population that is not being serviced adequately. Beyond that, I do not know the municia of this program. I will believe me, I will, but I don't right now. So I cannot speak to it on the level of detail. Thank you. So this is seemingly another example of how important it is we have an advocate in that seat who is focused on the fifth district. You know, for all of that funding that have gone out and none have gone to a CBO that's in our area, none at all. You have to wonder who was there fighting for us, making sure our seniors were taken care of. It's so important that we have representation that's focused here on the fifth and not just broader Santa Cruz. Of course, it's important to engage. It's important to collaborate as much as we can. But the person in that seat has to prioritize the people here in the fifth district and go from there. And that's what I'm offering. I can't go back and impact budgets in the past, but I'm present in communities all up and down the mountain and elsewhere. I'm reachable and I engage. So when you have needs, when something like this is coming up, when you have opportunities, you'll be able to reach me. We'll be able to collaborate and put a plan together and execute that plan so that we do get representation in our budget. And at the end of the day, the priorities of a government are on display in the things it spends money on in its budget. And if you're not being spent on, you're not a priority. And we can only fix that by making noise. We can't all shout, but if we put the right person in the seat, they can shout for us. Thank you. So we're all adults here. It's time to talk about true things. Yes, the senior funding is less than it was because someone else got there first and grabbed it. But here's the truth. When we go forward, there's going to be less and less money for all programs. And the taxes are going to go up. There's going to be less money. And if you go to McDonald's and spend 60 bucks for a burger and a shake for you and your wife, you'll know that's true. Next year it'll be 80 bucks. So what can we do? The fifth district is unique and there's no government there. One of the four of us will end up being the government in the fifth district. We rely on clubs, on organizations, on groups like this, people who know people to do things. And we're going to have to do that more and more. Christopher brought up an interesting point and I was raised in a town like that too. I knew of Mrs. Williams that lived on the corner. I knew the Johnsons and he had had a broken leg and so we would cut his lawn. You would do that. That's what communities do. Christopher drives around with a chainsaw not to cut wood for himself. That's what has to be done. Now of course as a supervisor I'm going to go and I'm going to beg for money and I'm going to say we need money. We need this. We need that. But there's less and less money and more and more people wanting it. And we all know how inefficient government is. Next time you look at the county road through seven guys look at one guy digging a hole and think that's pretty efficient. We need more guys watching that guy dig a hole. We don't. We need you people to be engaged. So yeah as a supervisor I'll go and hustle money. I'll do whatever. But you need to organize and things like this and help your neighbors. That's how things get done. Thank you. Alright. Well you have the first one. How will you help older adults deal with the rising insurance costs as your role as supervisor? Oh boy. That's a huge question. I don't know how many of you may be tuned into the November Town Hall and Wildfire insurance. But it's just not a homeowner's insurance. It's insurance in general that's gone up about 22 percent. It's frightening right now. The only thing we can do is continue to advocate put all of our feedback together and take it to the state level to let them know we just can't afford this. And people can't afford to move from where they're at because the next step where you're going to is even more expensive. So you're stuck. You are just stuck where you're at. You're making a choice. Are you going to buy your food? Are you going to pay for your medicine? Are you going to pay your insurance? Right. There are these really tough choices that are going on and we need to elevate that with the strongest voice that we can. And I think everyone sitting at this table will do that to make sure that they understand the situation that we are in. The profits seem to keep going to the top and at some point that needs to come to a halt. We've been there for a while but we need relief and we needed it a long time ago but we no longer can sustain at what is being asked of us. Thank you. All right. So we know that seniors and really everybody in our community are being hit by increased insurance costs. And those come in a lot of different bills. It could be your fire insurance. It could be your health insurance. Your homeowners insurance. Right. So I'll kind of break it up. Let's start with the fire insurance problem. Raise your hand if you've been dropped or get worried about being dropped for your fire insurance. Right. We have a crisis in this community and it's not something that's going to be solved at this county level but what we can do is be a voice and an advocate to our state and federal representatives that we have a huge problem here. The state of California is lucky that we do have the California fair plan but it is not it's expensive. It's not good insurance and we need our federal partners to figure out how to right size our insurance industry because it's it's upside down right now and they're taking it out on all of us the homeowners right. And so we need to bring relief to people who are paying these bills and we need to advocate. That's what a county supervisor can do on the health insurance area. There are huge reforms happening right now in the state of California. Something called Cal AIM and it's changing you know our Medi-Cal plan. It's changing Medicare. It's changing what is covered for seniors as it relates to health insurance and health care. And one thing that we can do as a supervisor is to advocate that it gets implemented seamlessly and well that we educate our public about the changes that we help people stay enrolled in the coverage that they have. And then we help to figure out where there are gaps and bring relief where there are gaps. There are still oral health gaps in health insurance right. And so we need to make sure that we're bringing services forward to meet those gaps here locally. Thank you. All right so the insurance issue is one that I've been actively working on for quite some time. I'm on the board of directors for fire safe Santa Cruz County. I'm the treasurer. And I've been interacting directly with the insurance commissioner with of course the nonprofit I'm part of to try to figure out ways to close this gap. So right now if you do the fire mitigation necessary around your home your company has to give you a better rate. Not can. They have to. Right. And so how do you get that mitigation done? The organization that I'm part of we offer services specifically to seniors to help them. We'll send strapping young lads out to come clear away that brush. We'll send the RCD to come chip the stuff that's cut away and give you the the a hand up. Give you the edge. Right now insurance companies are flying drones in your neighborhoods and looking down on people's homes to see who's got their mitigation done correctly. And if your mitigation isn't correct or your neighborhood isn't you can be targeted. They can say OK let's go over here and drop this this area because this area isn't being properly maintained. So we're not helpless when it comes to the fire portion. There's a lot we can do. And if we know which nonprofits offer services and if the county works with these nonprofits we can make this happen for people so that they can get in front of it. The Fair Plan isn't great. And the problem with the Fair Plan in my opinion is that it's the same insurers. Right. But the rates are higher. So they're motivated to get you off of their insurance and onto the Fair Plan. They keep a customer and they get a better rate for that customer. So we have to be fierce advocates of standing in front of that and creating programs and opportunities for people to do that kind of mitigation and keep the insurance they have. When it comes to medical insurance Medicaid changes that are happening again communication is what's key. We aren't all skilled at navigating government bureaucracies but the people we put in place have to be able to communicate to us what the changes are what's coming so we can be prepared. You know if it's your first time hearing about these changes now on this stage then the government has already failed. Because when those changes land for you and you go to use the insurance you think you have you know you might not have the coverage to handle the thing that you are expecting. So it's super incredibly important that the person in that seat which I hope to be me is prepared educated and ready to share what he learns with all of you so that we're prepared. Thank you. Insurance companies are in business to make money like everybody and you may wonder why are insurance companies leaving California and in particular the fifth district in droves. It's because they can't make money because the rules of the games changed. So the insurance companies that ensure the eleven hundred family homes that were lost and there's questions as well as a thousand eleven hundred. Let's say eleven hundred. That's my number. They were covered to replace the homes. For instance I build houses. I know that to do a foundation of two hundred bucks a linear school of foot on a thousand square foot house is about thirty thousand dollars in Santa Cruz County. If you have full coverage and if your lot happens to be on an ancient debris flow like customers I've had people I know of. If they have full coverage their foundation costs between six and seven hundred thousand dollars. Now the insurance companies got to cover that. They figured well we budgeted thirty grand we just didn't budget three quarters of a million dollars. Now when that happens several dozen times smart insurance companies said well we're losing millions on this place let's get out of here if we can. Now if the county said the foundation that was there before was good for sixty years and if you build it just the same way for thirty grand and this family can move back there. That would work. The insurance company would say well we can insure in this place but it's an open ticket whatever it is and all smart insurance companies should run like heck. And not insuring this county until the county gets themselves together. And the way to do that is as supervisors you work with them and say we will keep these guys in check. We won't set you up if you come here with good rates. If you come here with good rates we won't let the county say oh by the way that foundation is going to be eight hundred grand because we just said that. So that's how you fix it. I think you're the next person. Well I'm next. This is going to be the final question. I'm here all week. And guess what? The audience made it easier. It's a supporter don't support and then you can give a little explanation. Yes. Okay. So you said yes to anything. I'm ready. What is your position on measure K? I'm not voting for it. Here's why I'm not voting for it. Measure K is a tax half cent tax rate that the county supervisors are asking half of the people who are not paying it to vote for the other half of the people who are paying it. So it's taxation without representation. The money doesn't go to anything. It goes to the general fund. Not to help homeless. Not it goes to what the general fund has to do. And the money from the general fund always goes to the unfunded liability first like a mortgage on your house. If a mortgage on your house you got to pay it first. The first obligation on the general fund is the forty three million dollars of unfunded pension liabilities. One hundred percent one hundred percent of the new taxes from measure K will go to the general fund which will pay the unfunded retirement liabilities and half of the people in the county are going to vote for the other half who aren't going to pay for it to pay for it. Taxation without representation. I am not voting for it. Wow. We have a difference here because I am in support of measure K. So in our county we have a significant revenue shortage. We have half of our population lives in the unincorporated part of our county. And that is much higher than a lot of our neighboring counties who have a lot of cities like the city of Scotts Valley is here in the fifth district that helps to contribute to services. So our county almost has to act like a service right. We have to provide the roads. We have to provide a lot of the basic needs on top of the things like human services and the sheriff's office and things like that. However we receive a tremendously low percentage of our property tax here in this county. That's due to some allocations that happened back in the 1970s. And as a result we have a huge gap. So we have to look at all the different alternative methods of bringing in revenue just to pay for basic needs. Like our fire preparedness and prevention and recovery work. Like our homeless services. Like all the senior services. You know that pot of money that I'm hoping to grow for the core funding right has to come from somewhere. I'll be honest when it came to a sales tax I was a little skeptical those can be regressive. They hit lower income communities higher than people who are more wealthy. So I asked some really hard questions of the leadership who are pushing measure K. And they helped convince me because there are a number of carve outs on sales tax. Things like diapers. Things like formulas. Things like that are basic needs. It doesn't have an increased sales tax associated with it. And that's important to me because that's the community that I serve at Encompass are people who are lower income and I want to make sure they're not getting hit hard with it. But I am supporting it. And it also will keep the county sales tax still lower than other jurisdictions in our county. It's going from nine percent to nine and a half percent and some are already at nine point seven five. I'm conflicted. I've come out early and said I'm neutral on this. I don't like the way it's written but I understand the need for flexibility right now because the county's out of money. We have a lot of things we need to fix. One of one of my neighbors is in favor and explained it to me like this. Every time you get something from Amazon delivered to your house your zip code has five digits plus four following it. OK. Those four following it identify the sales tax that goes on that. So those are ways that we could track how much sales tax actually comes from our address. Interesting. Huh. I know. Let's let's think about that. We're smart. We're a software engineer over here. You know. OK. So how much actually comes then to those last four digits on my zip code. Where does that get allocated. So at this point I don't like the way it's written. I understand we need flexibility. We've got some huge problems ahead of us and we're out of money. So I think it's a very personal decision on voters as to whether they support or they don't support. But I think you do have to look at those last four digits on the end of your zip code and then go back with the data and say that came from the fifth district. Thank you. OK. So do we need the money. Yes. But principles matter. I'm against this because of how it's being done. It matters. Now it's being pushed in a way that's unfair. We're having people vote on a tax that they aren't participating in or having to pay so that we only need a 50 percent plus vote to win as opposed to the two thirds they need if they did it the correct way. I believe we should do the right thing. We should do it the right way. If we can't win the right way then we should lose and fight harder the next time and win the right way. So I am against this because it's being done incorrectly. I think they should have rolled the tax out to the folks who are going to pay that tax and they should have fought for that two thirds and they should have sold it and let the community know. Hey we're going to make sure that the funds that we're raising right now are going to be put towards this and this is how we're going to ensure that that's going to happen. Not just with pretty words. So it may be the unpopular choice but I think it's the principal choice to make and I do not support that. Thank you. I want to acknowledge that our candidate Christopher will have to leave it too but we'll continue with other questions with the remaining candidates. Thank you again for being here. This question will start now. I'm going to go Monica and we'll just keep going down. Keep going down. It might be a little bit less confusing for all of us. Equity is an important topic for me but there's very real discussion that addresses or even acknowledges the problem of ageism and evilness. What would you do to dismantle ageism in Santa Cruz County? So the question is about equity being a big topic and just to bring you all into that conversation. In our county we've had a lot of discussions about how resources are spent and how historically they've been spent on parts of the county that are a little more wealthy and there's other parts of the county that have huge health disparities and they haven't been receiving their fair share of public resources. And so a lot of work has been going on to move the resources where the needs exist. And I say that because it's the same approach when it comes to ageism and ableism, right? We have gaps. We have conversations that haven't been held and we collectively need to advocate to set that table and to have those conversations. I believe that a county's budget is a reflection of its values. And when we say that we're an inclusive community, when we know that seniors are the fastest growing population in the county, when we know that we have county parks, county spaces, county services that are inaccessible for people, then we need to be brave enough to bring those conversations forward and to start putting our resources behind that as well. At Encompass, I have done a lot of work developing and leading services, really using data to determine where our resources need to be. And so as a supervisor, I'll be asking a lot of questions from the Human Services Department. Show me the data of where our populations exist, where are the gaps, and let's make sure that we're using data and evidence to inform where we allocate our resources. And I think that it's not just a matter of north versus south county. That's like the dialogue that's been in our county for many years, but it really is about who is included and who is currently excluded from our county budgets. And that's the conversation I want to bring forward. Thank you. That's a tough question. Ageism. Honestly, I didn't believe in it when I went back to my career after raising my kids in 2015. I went back to a salary that I should have had after being a stay-at-home mom. So I didn't believe it. Recently, I've seen a change in that, and I do see a lot of ageism. And it's very sad because lived years is wisdom. And on every team, I think that it needs to be a group of people bringing all of their wisdom together, which means, you know, like a young college grad, someone who's in their 30s, someone who's at the point where their children are in high school, and people who have grandchildren. Everybody has a different view. Our community is referred to as an age-friendly community. We actually have that designation. And I do think that people are very welcoming of all ages. But when we had to evacuate, we found out that we did not have the adequate resources to go and get the seniors who are homebound. There wasn't a backup plan. There are some real holes in what we do not have today that we learned from the experiences that we've just gone through and what I, you know, working with the fire department, things like that. When they review their annual plans, what the changes that they put in are from the experience they just had. They now know the populations of people that are lost in the system. And pretty much in every department that we have, those lessons learned need to go into those plans so that we're visible at every single department that services us. Not just advocacy. It needs to be at every social service that is servicing this population. Thank you. So ageism is a real problem. And it's one I've seen in the industries that I work in extensively. There comes a point after you've been in industry for a while and you've got a little gray in your beard and your salary is a certain point to where folks don't want to keep you on because of that high salary. It will be easier to hire someone, a fresh grad or someone who's young who can come in and will do some measure of your work for a fraction of the price, right? So the company is incentivized by the bottom line. But it's always a mistake, right? In technology especially, you know, there are a lot of old wizards, that's what we call them. Just super experienced folks who've been here for ages, they know the ins and outs of the system and they're appreciated by the people they work with. But sometimes the people above and the people far below don't understand the value of these people. And these people have the institutional knowledge, they have the wisdom of the organization and variably the industry suffers when we don't highlight the importance of these people and support them and make sure that they are in place. We have a right to continue earning an income, to continue being treated seriously as we age and it's bizarre to even say that because as you get older and wiser and more skilled you should automatically be more valuable to people and to wise people you are. We have to remember that discrimination based on age is already illegal. We don't have to do anything new. We have to make sure people are aware that it's illegal. People are comfortable communicating what they're experiencing and they have an advocate on the other side who's going to do something about it when it happens. And I'll be that advocate for you. You guys have a great day, that's all for me. This topic of ageism is kind of new to me because I've always worked in the private sector and in the private sector it's all about merit based. So my civil engineer is 81, my general contractor is 70. He's skiing today because it was his birthday yesterday. My lead guys are in their mid-70s and I'm the baby of the bunch, just 72. Now we don't go out and dig the holes and drive the nails anymore but we have a bunch of young men who are teaching to do that. But between the 65 and 70 years old and the 25 and 30 year old men there's a big gap of people that don't know how to do what we do. That's a whole other topic. But let's talk about resources. I love the idea of resources. There's a lot of resources. My wife and I spend a lot of time at the county because we're building buildings there and I'm always amazed when I'm at the county. It's such a quiet place. Everyone's quietly not there. The building feels empty most of the time. It probably is most of the time. In the parking lot there are 25 to 30 brand new county vehicles sitting there parked, not being used, sitting there. There are county buildings and resources all over not being used. When I started charter school for my kids years and years ago the county I was in had the same thing. Lots of resources, lots of resources and they were absolutely against sharing them with anyone. But through the laws we were able to do that. I was able to negotiate a 20 acre parcel for a dollar a year for 20 years, county land. We got buildings they weren't used and moved them to the site. So the resources are there but you have to as a group get together and say we're going to do something about this, let's do it. Running around trying to get more money from politicians when there isn't is a fool's errand. What are the solutions to address the specific housing needs of older adults and people with disabilities? What will you do to get older adults and people with disabilities included in Santa Cruz County housing plans and plans for caring for those who are unhoused? That's a good question. I'll go back to inclusion. I don't believe that any new housing development should not include something for senior citizens. We need to take a look at it as an inclusive and global situation due to our facts of the population that exist. And we seem not to be taking that into consideration. We're taking into consideration wage. We understand that. That's the problem. Housing costs are way too expensive. We know that. But we need to look at all ages. Not just one specific. Jimmy Panetta is working on something for housing for the middle range, middle income folks. That would include folks like teachers. So he's looking at a tax credit. So some of our legislators are looking at doing things for specific groups. That is a way also that we could look at this population as a specific group. But when we look at putting in more dense housing and with the housing element projects that we have going, it needs to be equal in that we're looking at all groups. Not just one. Thank you. So I'll tell a story. San Jose, there's a big movement started a couple of years ago to have ADUs built there. And the city of San Jose being very proactive has offered $45,000, a $45,000 credit against your permitting costs or if you have the permit already, just straight out. If you apply for the program and fill out the forms and do all the rest. They've had very few applicants. Yet there are many people that want an ADU. And I know why because the cost to fill out the forms, get the reports, get the geotech report, the engineer runs about 65 grand. So you spend 65,000 bucks to get a $45,000 credit. This is government. This is well thought out. It's well crafted. It's put out there. It's on the website. No one's taking advantage of it. Silly people. Governments are inefficient. As Will Rogers said, and if you go to my website, there's a pitch for my website. Go to my website. There's a quote. Will Rogers said, you're not getting all the government you're paying for. Now that's funny a couple ways, isn't it? There you go. It's funny because we're paying a lot of money, but you're not getting much of it. So it's like, well, at least we're not getting all the government because they're not good. So the solution is let's go and get more money from government or let's see if we can do the private sector, friends, neighbors. You know, if there was an organization that wanted to have a meeting place, you probably could go to the county and say, can we use this meeting room here for our group? Can we use your copy? Yes, the resources are there. It would cost them nothing. It could be done. Don't look to them for everything because remember the six guys, seven guys, watching the one guy dig? That's who you're going to. They're going to work that fast for you. All right. Well, I am going to go get the state dollars and build more housing. So I want to start with a little bit about my background. My first real career was working on Skid Row in downtown Los Angeles serving women who are experiencing homelessness. And I have to tell you there's nothing more inhumane and more in just than a senior who's experiencing homelessness. It's completely unacceptable. And I saw it down there and worked to develop permanent supportive housing there. And I've seen it here. I moved up here to become the executive director of homeless services center. It's now housing matters. And I've seen that we have homeless seniors on our streets. Completely intolerable in my opinion. So we need to do everything we can to support those who are most vulnerable in our community including seniors. When it comes to homelessness, I take a housing first approach and I want to get people housed starting with those who are most vulnerable, seniors, people medically disabled and get them housed using a lot of different state and local and federal funding and vouchers to do that. And when it comes to developing housing we need to make sure that we are prioritizing many different populations. Developing seniors housing and developing a seniors community is different than developing permanent supportive housing for people who've been chronically homeless for the last 20 years, right? We need a little bit of everything. I have a lot of experience doing this because at Encompass I have helped to develop housing and I manage a number of affordable housing complexes. I'm currently working in partnership with Midpen Housing in Watsonville. I'm developing a new behavioral health campus and on the same site 75 units of affordable housing is going to be at that location for people in the South County region. And so what I recognize is that we need to build public-private partnerships drawing down the state funding that's coming into the community for housing. I mean, you guys listen to the governor talk right now. Housing, housing, housing, there's so many they're taking dollars from other budgets to help develop housing. We need to make sure that those dollars are coming here to Santa Cruz County and partnering with private developers as well to make sure that we're expanding the housing stock so that way our seniors can afford to live here. So now we're going to start. What types of state or local legislation regarding older adults or people with disabilities will you seek out? Well obviously I will seek out programs that help seniors in every way because as a supervisor my first job is to go to wherever the money is and ask for it. But back to the truth again. We know this. Everything's going to get more expensive. There's going to be less money and with the deficits that we're seeing that will go into the many millions of dollars less money for services. So once you realize that you have to figure we're either going to have less services or figure another way to do services look at the efficiency of gray bears look at the efficiency of them. Unbelievable. I think they had one paid staff all this food to all these people all volunteer this is amazing. This can be replicated. It's not hard to do. Just do it. Don't go to your county worker employee and say can you set that up and again think of the seven guys watching the guy dig. That's who you're talking to. You can do it yourself. Of course I'll get you know good all the sources that everybody goes to for money but I'll say let's see if we can help ourselves and we can look at this group here. It's not put on by the county. These are people coming together and saying let's see what we can do. Get these candidates together. Let's listen to them. You can do that. You're doing that. Don't look. What I love about the fifth district there's no government there. We are the government. One of us, Christopher, one of the four of us will end up being your supervisor. We hold all executive legislative and quasi judicial power all in one person. Five supervisors. They make the decisions. We can do a lot of things but most of what you can do you can do yourselves with our help. Anyway thank you. Okay you said it twice I've just got to say we've got city council members in the room and we have a city government here in the fifth district. You don't need us much at all. You don't need us much. You just need us to be here and nice and like so which is interesting. So Scott's failure is fully incorporated. You got your own cops. You got your own thing. We're sort of here like hi guys but SLV is not. So it's always interesting I'm here like why do you want me here? But anyway this is Monica's time. I'm sorry I had to say it. I know I see Jack watching. I don't need that. No worries. Appreciate that. Thank you. Yes. And I think the question was about state and local. Okay very good. I mean the very first priority right now is looking at the state budget and what's currently being proposed by the governor's budget and trying to advocate to make sure that he doesn't balance the budget or try to balance the budget because the January budget that was released does delay some funding for seniors programs. Definitely doesn't increase any of them and I've been on a number of statewide calls that really have a lot of concerns about that governor's budget right now. So between now and the May revise of the state budget is the time for all of us to be advocating to make sure that health and human services, senior services isn't the place where the governor goes to balance his budget. I also really am a big part of implementing CalAIM which is the, like I said the big health care reform happening related to insurance and I want to make sure that senior services and seniors health care is at the forefront. Kind of following the health care lens again I think that we have a huge gap in oral health for seniors both providers and also people willing to pay for it. So I would like to advocate both locally and at the state level that we shore up oral health access for seniors and while we're at it I'm a behavioral health provider at Encompass and we have to be shoring up behavioral health services. I really think of health care way more than what happens in the doctor's office. It's all of the conditions that help contribute to a healthy quality of life and we need to make sure that all of those services are available and accessible. I also going back to the previous question around affordable housing I know that seniors are vulnerable and that our affordable housing dollars that come down from the state have to prioritize senior housing as well as family housing as well as housing for transition age youth right but we need to make sure that all populations are represented. Can you repeat the question please? Yes. What types of state or local legislation that you meet will you be seeking to support or look at them? Yes. From the state level one of the things that we do know is we do not have enough medical providers right now. If you come into the state and your new patient you likely will not find a Medicare provider. They won't take new patients. So I think that from a state level that's where we start that is a problem all over the state. It's just not in our county but without providers we can't guarantee health care access for everyone. The other thing is stationary housing here in the 5th district. So although we see some things happening throughout the county we don't have stationary senior housing here that I know of and that needs to be developed and it needs to be put on as in our state and local government as it is missing. It is missing. So we need to develop that as soon as possible. Really from working with the state every single thing that happens in that budget right now we know that we're going into lean years. We're there and it's going to get worse. So I endorse exactly what my fellow candidates have said advocacy is going to be key. We need to have a voice. We need to be there. One of the things I do for education is I go to Sacramento once a year and I go to Washington D.C. once a year and I sit in their offices. So I meet with Jimmy Panetta in Washington as well as here and when I'm doing that I'm with the county but this is through education advocacy. So joining with other counties to go to the state level is a strategy that can work especially for a population that is not being served. Thank you. So I think we will be having this last question and then we will allow you time to give your final statements. What do you see as the number one key element in Santa Cruz County is an age friendly community? Number one only one? Okay. He's limiting to me to one but I'll try and break the rules. So one thing that really strikes me is that seniors are incredibly vulnerable to loneliness and to disconnection and this is something that we definitely see in the Fifth District particularly in the San Lorenzo Valley and in rural communities they've been taking care of their home for so long but they're aging in place and they're really struggling and they don't always know how to ask for help. And so I think that we need to make sure that loneliness and isolation is a major priority of the resources that the county spends. I really consider that that idea of health and wellness isn't something that comes at the time that you have. I want to support volunteer programs that help engage with seniors. I want to make sure that we have more dollars that go to senior services like this one, like the one up in San Lorenzo Valley and other parts of the county. I want to make sure that we have accessible transportation every day frequently, many times a day for seniors, right? So they don't stay isolated in their homes and they don't go out to do their shopping and to engage with each one of us, right? I look at our outdoor spaces. The county manages the county parks and there's a lot of opportunities to make them more accessible and have more programming that targets seniors that can also help to decrease isolation and loneliness. And of course I want to support our caregivers because as a place we rely on some of the hardest working individuals in the entire county who are our caregivers and I want to make sure that they are paid livable wages and that they have the respite that they need and the support that they need because we are all going to be there if we're lucky and so we want to make sure that everybody supports them out of time. So thank you. Tough questions. One thing. I think it has to be health care. I think it has to be access and it needs to be that we have providers in place. I think it needs to be shouted from the highest levels because when you're in need and you cannot be seen or you can't afford to be seen that's your life. So it has to be health care. There is nothing higher than that that reaches all of us and the idea that you can't pay for it and you're having to make a decision. Okay. Do I go private on something? I know that I can get care if I pay the cash but if I try to use my insurance and I try to come get a provider who's not taking patient that has my insurance they're very, very tough decisions that face people. So number one it has to be accessible health care. Thank you. I agree with Monica. I think that loneliness is the major problem. I remember my mom when she's even 93 delivering meals on wheels she'd come back and say I went to this one and that one and she's so alone. They're so by themselves. Where are the grandchildren? Where's this? Now my mom's, you know, we had 10 kids she had no problem with grandchildren and she had to make schedules to see us. You give you 50 minutes on Tuesday but most people aren't that way. And I take an example from again back to the experience of my church I see what we do. We have these phone trees and so if it's trunk or treat or the Halloween party or the Christmas get together the 4th of July whatever once a month we do something the phone tree reaches out are you going to come? Sister Joan, are you going to come? Well I don't know. We really need more cookies well I'll bring cookies so she shows up with her cookies and she meets us and we stay together that way and that's the connection and that can be done with communities that you build. Now the county can help you we have lots of resources we have buildings we have top years we have all kinds of things but it has to do with reaching out and loneliness for seniors is the killer when the spot we I've seen it well when my father passed away my mother was dead six months later and they were great healthy people so they get lonely they get by themselves and we have to keep them involved in the community and I'm actually a senior as well so I know how that is although recently I've been very very busy meeting people but someday that'll become less but in the meantime I think it's important to as a community reach out and build those connections if we as supervisors can help in any way by golly we're here but don't look to us as your first line of defense we won't be there for the first line thank you. Thank you all for inviting us here today in my closing remarks first I want to go to that this election coming up the primary and the presidential election are critical please please encourage everyone to vote encourage your children your grandchildren do whatever you can to get some energy into this election it is very very important I'm proud to be one of four people that are running in this race this is what democracy is about when you have choice and running a race that is fair and we are role models this is a great opportunity for all of us so that's one of the things we need to pass down to the next generations is that anyone can run for office they should feel that they can and they should if they are determined to make change the other thing I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention you can look at my website as well I I do not believe in sending flyers to people's houses because it's going to go in the trash and if we're really talking about being environmentally conscious I want to be able to give something else so you can see my website just look up my name but I'd like to share something I learned just recently you probably all are hearing about fentanyl and the opioid crisis couple things one is an educating folks on it's not only that one pill can kill it's one pill can addict it is so highly addictive that people crave it after just experiencing once so there are recovery programs we need to know about but I don't know if you have this in your first date over here this is Narcan if you are taking a pain that is an opiate you need to have it as well I learned this from a paramedic that it was at our high school recently we were having a conversation and he said that population does not understand it's just not the young folks it's just not the addicts if you are taking something that is a very high paroled you should have this in case there is an accidental overdose thank you so I want to thank all of you for taking the time to be here today and I just want to talk from the heart for a minute you know I've been a public servant my entire life I dedicated my life my career to serving my community and I didn't do that with an attention to ever run for office in fact I didn't think that I would ever even be electable right so I just rolled up my sleeves and gave back to my community back when I was on Skid Row when I moved here in 2010 and I've been engaged and through this work I've learned how to make a difference I've learned a lot about county budgets and infrastructure and the whole field and how to improve my community and I've also learned the value of being an authentic person and being real and being human and not always having all the answers but having all the questions and being willing to listen and to learn and as a supervisor candidate I hope that you see me as an authentic person and as somebody who's ready to step up and to serve all of you I hope that this is the beginning of a conversation and a dialogue and a partnership because at the end of the day whoever you elect it's not our voice that matters it's all of yours and so I want to represent all of you and use my deep experience and just my passion and heart for serving the community to do that well you know I'm choosing to live here I've even really gotten to talk about my kids but I'm choosing to raise my kids here they go to third and fourth grade and I'm choosing to be here too and so we deserve so so much more so I'm just really honored to be here I'm honored to earn a number of the endorsements that I have some people in this room, thank you like I said people like Sheriff Jim Hart people like Supervisor Bruce McPherson but at the end of the day it's all of you and your vote that matters so I hope I can earn that today thank you so much for being here so it's very interesting I look at the four folks that are running for Supervisor we've got the right number of men and women in different ages and like that this is really well thought out it was just all random but the interesting thing is we've gotten to know each other in the last several weeks and we all agree that the issues are about the same we've got to help folks rebuild we've got to fix our roads we've got to help our seniors we've got to do all these sort of things and the different sort of boils down to this some of the people running believe the answer to fixing the problems is getting more money from the state or the federal government or somewhere to fix the system and some well only one me I believe that we're running out of money on the federal level state level, county level I mean do you know the federal government owes 34 trillion dollars that's a lot of money but the unfunded liability is 134 trillion that's a huge number we don't even think about that we stopped talking about the federal debt when it passed 5 trillion so anyway as supervisors we can only do so much and I believe that as a supervisor I will work hard to find money where money can be found but I'll speak the truth and say folks we have to buck up use the resources that we have be smarter with the resources six guys watching five guys dig or what was it seven guys watching one guy dig let's not do that let's be efficient we're looking at tough times folks we really are inflation is just beginning things are going to get more expensive as a supervisor I pledge to you that I will look for money wherever we can but I'll also encourage you let's what we see what we can do on the community level to make this work I appreciate your vote thank you for broadcasting it and we'll be online as well as everyone that attended today's event as well as our sponsors and our hosts Scott Valley thank you so much for hosting us meals on meals for providing the meals and thank you all for your engagement I hope that today was a learning opportunity but I would want to say one thing that I feel really confident about is that everyone resonated with something set up here and I hope that whoever wins takes those lessons and those voices with you during this course of this election so thank you again and thank you everybody for joining I've been accused that we all get along too well I've heard that too