 You're welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. For our first conversation, we'll be speaking with a public affairs analyst, Mr Chukumma Okinwa, who's on standby. Good morning, Mr Okinwa. Good morning. So our conversation really is about open grazing in the southern part of Nigeria and all the controversy that this really seems to have generated with a focus on the southeast. I'd like us to first get to your perception. How do you really see this issue regarding the president's speech on reviving grazing routes in the country? So the government is coming together to put out laws to say open grazing is banned and how really the people in the southeast and even those of the north are perceiving it. It is clear that under the land use arts, the trust of who oversees and holds the lands in honor of the state. It's requisite on the governors, it's decreed on the governors and not on the federal government. And as well, the governors are the chief security officers of the state. When you look at the incident of open grazing, the Maroudin, Afsulali headsmen, and of course with their cows the way they parade, not just in the rural communities, but in the state capital, like sometimes obstructing vehicular movements and not just that. We sometimes see life with any headsmen, parade our communities with AK-47. And then you begin to tell me, if someone is actually there for such kind of peoples, your only interest is of course should have been to take care of your cows and to co-execute peacefully with your host communities. But that does not happen. We have a case where host communities are oppressed and farms are damaged. And the interesting thing is that when people reach out to host communities, reach out to the police, they do nothing about that. It seems that there is a conspiracy. So I see it that this current move from the Southern governors to place a ban permanently on open grazing was well-advised and also commendable to know that many of them have already complied. And we, particularly in Enugu, we are very, very excited about this recent move. Okay, so now let's focus on the Enugu perspective. I think it was in the news yesterday that the governor, if I'm not going, has passed that bill and of course signed. How much of a challenge was it in Enugu? And do you think that it is a perfect timing or it could have come earlier? Well, we expected it to have come earlier. But then it's better late than never. Because considering the demand of our governor, like most of us know him, he doesn't talk much. You know, we, similarly, you can sometimes understand from his body language what may likely be his response in an issue like this being that he's very peaceful. He believe in coexistence, peaceful coexistence with other part of the country. And so for a very sensitive issue like this, but most importantly, in the interest of the people that he is leading, he just have to do this and the people are very, very excited with this current move. It is commendable. It is laudable. And personally, I say kudos to the governor of Enugu state. And I would also expect him to act with this level of courage in some other issues that affect the Saudis at the moment. Okay, so regarding this open grazing situation in the Southeast, we've seen news reports saying basically that governors in the Southeast have been stalling regarding this when you compare to governors in the Southwest. But one of the governors I've gone ahead to pass this is the Abia state government. And on the flip side, people's concerns have been implementation. That beyond passing this anti-open grazing and abusing to law, does the state government really have the authority to go ahead and enforce this law to make sure that people who are grazing cattle or who are roaming with their cattle cannot do that freely anymore. So let's talk about the commitments and the authority, the political will of these governors to follow through with those laws. As a matter of fact, I expect our governors to be not only proactive, but very assertive. It really pays. Let me give you an instance. Just three meetings of the Saudi governors, the foundation of the country is already shaking. Because over the time, it appeared that northerners tend to see the southerners as tenants and themselves as the landlord. Now, you can see what is happening with the vatici that is assertiveness. Everything in life can be negotiated. In the constitution, say that you are the chief security officer of your state and the chief executive officer of your state. You don't need anybody. You don't need anyone to inspire you to work, to function optimally in that position. The Nigerian police force is not just an issue of the federal government. It belongs to including the state governors and they should be proactive. Whoever is a judge of the state command is called a commissioner. You have other commissioners under you as a governor, commissioner for housing, commissioner for budget, commissioner for you as a force. And same thing with the commissioner of police. He must not be treated as someone that is higher than the state. And this issue of maybe waiting to ratify instruction from the agar at the top, from the IGP, from the IGP, it's even unconstitutional. It ought not to be so because in the police council, you have the president. You have the vice president. You have the idea. You have the tasks as governors. So even in the voting, if the governors has been very proactive and insist that the Nigerian police force will work, I'll tell you the simple truth. It will work. But over time, they have not even able to utilize the provisions of the constitution. They have not been assertive enough. We've always had this situation where elected officers will begin to act as if to say they are appointed by the president and mean they should be able to rise to the occasion and say, we are the chief security officers of our state. The police is the tool for governance at every level and it has to work to protect every citizen. It is an institution that is constituted by the constitution and should not even be under the purview or maybe like a capriciousness and whims of any politician. If the president even is to order the police around, it must be within the ambits of the law. That's what makes a nation that is governed by the rule of law. The law is greater than everybody, even the person of Mr. President. Everybody should abide by the rule of the law. All right. Also speak with regards how this can be enforced without necessarily destroying the relationship because you mentioned that Inugu state in particular has or the governor himself, rather has continued to encourage a peaceful relationship amongst people there. And every now and then we share stories of the Mieti ally in Inugu state, in government house addressing the governor and trying to mend fences and some of all of that. So how do you think that this can be enforced without necessarily creating friction between those relationships and ensuring that every part of the South East remains peaceful mostly because of the narrative that has been spewed by certain characters seeing this as an attack or Northern as an attack on full any headers. And lastly respect is a broker. You can recall that before the governor went ahead to sign this bill into law, he invited the categories and told them this is the plan of the state and they said he should give them party days. You can imagine that. Those who are hosted in your state trying to order the state around. So there is no way when someone is oppressed in the mindset, if you want to relate to the issue you won't get to the point of calling the state the state and not the family implement. I believe that the nothingers know what they are doing. They are treating the southern part of the country totally right. And I tell you, this oneness we've always wanted, this oneness we've always negotiated for, it will be solidified, it will be stronger when every region we have a voice, when everybody's equal stakeholder in the same Nigeria, when everyone of us are treated as co-owners of this one nation. And not a situation where the south is oppressed, people are dying in silence and all the rest of it. And then we can't pretend any longer the unity of Nigeria, it stands up for negotiation and the only way to go about it, the essence of having Estan Laws provision of law is to ensure peaceful coexistence that can only happen when there is fairness, equity and justice. And that is all that the south is demanding for and the time is right and ripe. And kudos to all the southern governors. I'm looking forward to the next meeting in November. If they have always spoken all the way from the beginning of this country, this, the southern part of the country will not be as marginalized as it is. The southern part of the country has always subsidized the north in everything in terms of the resources. It's interesting to note that, why they talk about how many percent should go to the south host communities and all the rest of it. Nobody's talking about the gold in Zanfara. It's still completely a nothing property. We cannot continue in a forced federalism that does not respect the quality of all stakeholders. We must call a spade a spade and not a family implement. And once that is done, everybody will be happy, collaborating, coexisting in one Nigeria. Okay, I want us to talk about what's happening in Anambra State. They seem to have a gentleman's agreement where if there's any clash between farmers and herders, whoever is thought to be responsible will pay compensation. The governor has ordered some farmers to pay compensation to some cattle herders and asked cattle herders to pay compensation to some farmers. And that's how they've been doing it. Do you think that system works? For how long will they continue to pay money? Would payments be enough restitution for lots of lives, lots of farmlands, lots of harvests, lots of cattle? And would you say the Anambra State government is maybe jeopardizing the efforts of the South Eastern governors and governors in the South as a whole who have decided to collectively ban open grazing? I have a problem with the way he is going about that. And it's a matter of fact, when you see state actors, you know, actors, non-state actors, why seek for alternative ways of disciplinary resolution when you as a state actor can actually initiate laws that will not only ensure that there is a legitimacy of enforcement but also the sustainability of that policy. What happens when he leaves office in the next few months to come? So he should be able to look at the sustainability. And over the time, when you also say like, you know, when you destroy things and all the rest of it, invariably we are making provisions for some of those clashes. But when it is very clear, you know, it's interesting to know that both headers and those that cultivate are collectively farmers, they are in one sector, they are in agriculture. But one is already suffocating the other. How will the headers be suffocating the farmers? Over time, we'll try to be nice to call it farmers-headers clash. But what we've seen, it can be a clash where you have one group fully armed or pressing the other and interesting to note in their community. We're not talking about the southern, maybe those from Saudis going there to like, maybe, you know, maybe they have a ranch and you are trying to like, convert the ranch into farm, without even being thought for. Can that happen in Nigeria? Maybe I leave from Enugu to go to Kanu, see a farm there, maybe a ranch if there is anyone there and start cultivating. If it is that there is no alternative to maybe open grazing, it would have been an issue. But this alternative is something that is consistent with global best practices. You don't allow Nama, you don't allow cow to be moving everywhere. I mean, in a civilized society, what sort of thing is this? We should have moved past this. We are organizations that are talking about Internet of Things, talking about 5G, talking about, you know, electric vehicles, talking about automating their systems. Fully, Nigeria is still talking about rediscovering open grazing routes that is far, far, far backward. And I mean, we can be talking about having this conversation into its first century. All right, before we move on to discussing, you know, all the challenges in the South East, I want us to also speak with regards, my colleague already brought up Anambra State, but let's move to Emo State and discuss this, you know, across party lines now. The governor of Emo, Opus Adimba, has been accused of dragging his feet and also maybe not even so interested in the anti-open grazing law. So do you all, do you see this as, you know, him, of course, being the chief security officer of the state, you know, knowing what is best for his state and maybe not being interested in banning open grazing, or, you know, being, you know, a member of the APC and not wanting to go against his party's wishes? Well, Opus Adimba has been clearly disconnected from his people. Right from the voting process, because no one explains, yes, we have to respect the Supreme Court justice, but largely in the South East, we see him as the Supreme Court governor, because for someone to move from fourth position to first position, there is no mathematics, there is no law anywhere that we explain that, but that aside, it is also very visible that what most of the kind of times like decisions that he is always taking shows a strong disconnect. He is not interested in connecting with the people. What stops you as a governor, when you reach out to the state house of assembly, state house of assembly should be able to consult with their people, through town hall meetings to find out whether this in any way represents their interests. And if it does, what is governance if it's not all about people and mean what you hold, you hold in trust for your people. You are governing today because the people supposedly, you know, voted for you. Every government derives its legitimacy from the support of the people. And when you are doing things that you don't consider that, this whole thing has, I'll leave its relevance in the South East. The open grazing, it's caused lots of problems. Lives have been lost. Women have been defied and all the rest of it then. Why would anyone want to pretend that it's not helping? So I think he's trying to play the politically correct card, which it's not sustainable, it's not helpful, and is gradually losing its popularity before his people. You can't gather with the Southern Governors. You collectively agree with anything. You didn't object only to come and be the stranger in the midst of your brethren seeking for the interests of the region, because it is when we come together as, don't forget that Nigeria coming together, we came in together as a certain protectorate and a not-em-protectorate. And there were rules that were set for engagement. And I believe people can respect ourselves and come together that certainly unity can be sustainable. All of these agitations, we report right into the back. Mr Okewa, I want us to analyze this ban on open grazing, vis-à-vis security networks in the Southeast and the Southwest. In the Southwest, there's the Amoteco. It's the original security outfit there. And in the news in recent time, we've heard stories of Amoteco. Even a few days ago, arresting herders that were found in their communities. And I saw just this week, they also seized about 53 cows. So we can see that in the Southeast, the Amoteco as a security instrument has been active in trying to enforce the ban on open grazing. But we don't have such in the Southwest. There's the Ebu Bagu, but we don't hear stories about them taking action on this grazing ban in the state. So would you suggest that that's something they should look into? Because, like I mentioned earlier, beyond passing the bills into law, the crux of the matter should be about enforcement. I mean, when the governor of Abia State was actually asked regarding implementation of the ban on open grazing, what he told the media was that they should go and ask the police why they're not enforcing the ban. So it seems like in the Southwest, they don't have it together regarding governor's pointing figures to the police, the police pointing figures to the governors. But in the Southwest, on the other hand, the Amoteco seems to be doing something about it. Well, let me say something. I'm one of those that believe that before everyone ever thinking of making, like, finding other alternatives, getting other security networks, we should be able to reject the police force, motivate the police force, invest into it, give them all of their place to enforce the law, remind them of their responsibilities, and insist that they act in accordance to the police act. Because what we see, like, it's a police that, I mean, it's like somebody even, we want to arrest someone that you don't like the face. You want to negotiate for someone to be criminalized. You reach out to the police force. It's not only the federal government that is abusing the police force. We've seen the police, you know, even when you go to some stations, you see a bill is free, right? But who is checking those things? Even the state governors, we stay under their state. Police will collect money. Is it the federal government also that allowed them to be collected money? I think the governors has really been very passive as regards to making the police force work. Having said that, in Enogu State, we have the forest guard, right? I am sure that since the Ebu Bago literally failed on arrival because of the security sabotage of some of these governors, they never wanted it to work because you want to set out a security outreach. There is no level of investment, no fund that is assigned. How will that work without funding? I mean, the whole thing was dead on arrival. So we expect them to insist because the simple truth is that if you create even state police without actually ensuring that the federal police works or that the Nigerian police, let me not call it federal police, of course it is the Nigerian police force. And Nigeria is not just Abuja. It's not just the FCT. It includes the Ta-6 state. And interestingly, all the Ta-6 states, governors are part of the police council. So let them decide that this police council we meet, that will probably be like maybe once in seven years that they decide to meet or whatever. They have not been meeting. Let them meet and let the governors present their ideas and say, see, all by the time, it appeared that the police has just been a federal government issue. Now we want everyone of us to be co-stakeholders in the same police force. Don't forget, life is all about negotiation. Nobody gives you space. You have to take your space. So I want the state governors to take their space in terms of resource control. I'm happy with what is happening in respect to facts. Let all the governors put their voices together. We can afford in a true federal system to have an all-powerful center and weak sub-nationals. That is not consistent with what we call a federal system. If we have a unitary system, let's call it so. If we have a federal system and want to practice democracy, let's call it so. And not for pretending, this has limited Nigeria. And when you look at all of the indices, Nigeria keep moving down as a country. I'm not talking about maybe like press statement by the opposition party. I'm talking about where you look at the indices for assessment on the global scale, whether on the one by the World Bank, several indices they release or the one by Transparency International or the EU Development Index recently released by Commonwealth. All of these global agencies, Nigeria has not fared well and we don't need the opposition party to tell the current administration that things are not working well. Even the man on the street knows that things are not the way it ought to be. There is that inflation all of the time at skyrocketing percentages for salaries are not increasing. Minimum wage is not even implemented in some states. So how will the common man cope about not seeing the government cut down on the large expenses invested in governing the country? If the people are suffering from government at all levels as a mark for themselves hardship allowance distance up not to be so. The citizens are doing the suffering that they are enjoying the hardship allowances. All right, okay. I now want us to move to talking about some other you know thing entirely. I believe you're currently in Inigo State. Yes, I am. So what is the current situation on ground there? Is there movement? Because today apparently it's the 17th and there was a notice by the IPOB earlier this week that Monday, Tuesday and Friday would be sit at home. So can you share with us you know what the current situation is on in Inigo State? Yeah. Okay, like a interesting leadership hold on. I've drove around the city major places you know I shared like a a live video assuring people that normalcy is gradually returning to the city. I think I saw about in 5% vehicle than what's the vehicle movement worse. But I think many persons are still like you know wandering. Is it safe to move? Because of course let's not forget that even for like about last three weeks after we must have observed it two times the leadership of IVOP came and said that this instruction was not coming for us for a continued sit at home. But interestingly we didn't hear from the government reassuring the citizen that maybe their safety is intact and all the rest. We saw even government offices locked down on such days. You know but interestingly is people are not tired of course like this month this week we've been on lockdown on Monday and on Tuesday. And then even this Friday people are wondering do we really come out and government is not saying anything about that and I think it's really high time for governors in the Southeast to become more assertive more proactive. We shouldn't be getting instruction of what to do from non-state actors. We should be getting instruction from the leaders that we elected because one of the things that is very shocking when I try to imagine during the period of the COVID-19 lockdown when governors were in 16 people should stay home. I mean it was a battle it was a fight you could literally see people disobeying that rule. But IVOP says everybody should sit at home and there was maximum compliance largely due to three reasons some students solidarity with them battled the Nandekano some others were sitting at home largely because of fear I can tell you over 80% of persons were not sure that the government we secured them and of course the third was simply because the vehicles commuters which were largely controlled by that network were also not available so there was no way you could actually go out go to work or anywhere. So back to the issue about the open grazing in the Southeast the Southeast town unions just close to newsmen that they would protest against governors in the Southeast who have a pain lip service to the ban on open grazing we've also seen in the news residents of so many states in the Southeast including Anambra saying that the governor needs to do more than just pay money to farmers or herders who are involved in any clash that involves loss of lives. So if a protest like this happens how do you see it playing out? Do you see the government of those states that seem to be stalling take this more seriously or do you expect what we see when people gather to protest? The police clamp down on those groups. Climb down on your people protests of course would be the only alternative if dialogue doesn't work because I mean you should be able to listen to your people. This then has cost lots of half work in the Southeast. So protests should be seen as maybe the last option. I would ask all of the town unions to explore the option of dialogue first of all and if the governors wouldn't listen right then they should be able to do something but let me tell you this input to it. It is sad to note at the moment visibly from what we've seen that iPop leadership is more powerful than all the Southeast governors put together and I've called on them before now to go on a leadership retreat and ask them say where did you lose it? How come we've lost our relevance? How come the sword has lost his saltiness to the point that when we assure our people to go back to work and do everything you know non-state actors so I'm also thinking that if iPop tells them maybe you have to you know ensure that this become a law I'm sure that those governors that are basically afraid because the interesting thing also is that some of the governors have their government houses now barricaded you understand what is the pressure you are creating in the mind of people that work freely about without the police without the military and all the rest of it you are confirming to them that these securities are in your state and how did they come about? How come where you now have opportunity to address it you are not addressing it it's a question it's a food for thought for Southeast governors Interesting one there Mr. Chukma okay well that statement you made that the IPOB is more powerful than the South East leadership I believe that's something they should think about and find solutions to as soon as possible thank you very much once again public affairs analysts based in Enuguchukumaukewa for sharing your thoughts with us regarding the open grazing ban in the South Eastern part of Nigeria have a great day now thank you for having me thank you all right stay with us so we'll move away from the South East and now talk about Nigeria's current debt profile and the president's call for another 4.9 billion dollars loan we joined by an economist to Ken Ife right after the short break stay with us