 Good evening. This is Montpelier Civic Forum and we're back and we're tonight We're speaking to Jim Murphy who is the chair of the Montpelier Rocksbury School District. Tell me do it right the board of school directors He is the head of the board of school directors Jim. How long you've been on the board eight years now and The vast sum that you make for sitting on the board 1500 a year and Your wife will allow you to do that. Well, I have another job No one don't quit your day job, right? Yeah, don't quit your day job. How long you've been chair? I've been chair since 2018 so six years now But it's a long six years. It has been a long six years and We're here to talk about the revised budget the budget that's coming up for a vote on April 30th, yep, and you can vote ahead of time Yes, you can vote early and you can go to City Hall and vote on April 30th Should you wish? Yeah, and you can also request a ballot from City Hall to be mailed to you and you can also show up at City Hall I I think pretty much any time now and vote. I don't know if John has the The ballots ready, but certainly in the next week or two You should be able to to show up early and it takes it's one question. So it'll take 30 seconds Now this is a revised budget. I want to open with the district itself the district itself is For this year, it's Roxbury Village School It is Union Elementary School. It's Main Street Middle School, and it's the high school. Yep, Montpellier High School and The two elementary schools together will have approximately 415 students Main Street Middle School has 378 and the high school has 375 yeah, we have 290 employees of which 161 of them are teachers and We offer a full curriculum Yep, including AP courses. Yes, and Basically 13% of our student body, which is holding constant is special needs Yeah, that all sounds right. I mean, I think those figures are from a website So now our challenge is to arrive at a budget that that everyone will agree on yes And that's what we're here to talk about today and what I want to do is I want Jim to give me just an overview. How much are we talking about? What is the total budget amount that you guys are asking for we're asking for about 30.5 million? Which was down from originally a quest that that was voted no of 32 million. So we've reduced that by about 1.5 million What does that mean to a house? It will be a tax increase in Montpellier of about 14 percent, which is down from 24 percent and I understand those are very high numbers And I explain why we'll get to that In Roxbury, I think it's a slightly under 4 percent Okay, before before people start to shut off the television and say this is totally unfair Would you explain how it's equal how 4% equals 14% I? it largely has to do with The CLA which is the common level of appraisal is very different in both towns, which is that's and and because Montpellier went through an appraisal there's this phenomenon that That I think has gotten the attention of some people in the state where there's there's basically a property tax bump After an appraisal happens you you know levels out and then the next year You get the common level appraisal seeks to Basically take what the appraise value is and make it as close to what you could get it if you actually sold your house Because Montpellier is very hot market and because we Realized the the leveling effects of the appraisal last year Montpellier got a bump of about kind of 13 percent baked in in terms of And across the board increase And there are more properties that sell in Montpellier than in Roxbury. So it's easier to set that new benchmark So then at some point in time Roxbury will go through the same experience and ill experience bump as well a bump maybe not as significant because you know I'm the The market in in Roxbury is not as hot as it is in Montpellier and never and probably never will be so basically Lost in the din of the last election was the amount of work that actually went into shaping that budget I mean it it kind of focused on two elements in one case Oh my god, it's 23 percent and on the other where do you stand on the Roxbury Village School? Yes, and how do you how do you how do you get that number down when? But how do you get to that number is equally interesting because it was not arrived at Lightly I mean every year the board goes through an extremely detailed process To try and get to that number that they feel is appropriate in order to educate first of all Does this budget contain any new programs? No this this budget is is a actual substantial cut can compare it's The first budget we put out had some cuts in it But was relatively kind of a level budget in terms of just moving the same program for this has This has positions eliminated and the closure of a school So it has it has cuts that are pretty significant, but there's nothing in addition hiding in the budget. Absolutely not No, I want to take you back to November and even before November Talk to us about act 127 because it plays a big role in this and I realized to a lot of people It's just another state act. What was act 127 so act 127 effectively Vermont has a very Byzantine education funding mechanism and it that came from the compromise yeah, I came from compromise and it came from a Decision bring them if my memory is correct back in the 90s that that essentially said that that Vermont had to come up with a way to ensure that there was a quality in school outcomes and So a quality in school outcome that wouldn't be different in the N. E. K. That yeah because you lived in a very property poor area your kids wouldn't suffer Another kids benefit because they're growing up in killington or stuff. Exactly. So, you know proud of that in the 80s and 90s If you were in a town that had a relatively, you know decent Property tax base and wealth base like like Stowe like South Burlington like Montpelier You know there was plenty from the board to draw on in terms of of local Taxes, but you know for property poor towns like the Northeast Kingdom and some other rural towns They had very little property tax to draw on and the schools were very poor So the outcomes the education outcomes were huge and the the Vermont Constitution as Read by the Supreme Court guarantees a quality in education So they forced upon the legislature the need to equalize that and to redistribute funding So we start to pool funds from the locals Over to the state and then back to the locals again. Exactly. So there's this there was this, you know education fund Set up and it's distributed equally based on What was previously called equalized pupils? Which is was a formula that looks it's not kind of the number of people in seats but it's it's those people with weights on them according to Essentially according to their education needs What is an education need? It's not Gabriel's bad at math. It's it's more fundamentals than that. It's yeah, you economic It's it's socio-economic factors. A big factor is Whether not English is a first language or a second language Special needs special needs Those type of factors and also like where they are in the the education. They go it's it's not the same Cost to do a first grader. It is is to do a junior in high school So so all those factors are weighted and it comes out with a number and that number Basically determines you get a set amount called the dollar yield that is Based on that per pupil Number and that's distributed to schools What was act one 20? I think we were in favor of act one 27. We were so what act one 27 did was it? There's a study that came out of UVM that Effectively said that the weights that that were being used were not We're not actually accounting for actual education need And that there was was inequity there and that the weights needed to be shifted And then it proposed a a mechanism to shift them. So the legislature adopted 127 to Effectively reflect that UVM study The effects of that I mean the positive effects were that It did a better job of allocating resources And that's why the board supported we do we have their community values equity the board values equity The result is a good one like though more money should go where the needs are mob pillow, however, and my brother Roxbury district was not a beneficiary of That shift at what point did we learn that? We knew We knew at the onset That we would not likely be a beneficiary However, we've we felt that I mean the board felt in supporting it That it was still the right thing to do from a statewide education perspective. I'm not sure Well, I know we didn't understand how act one 27 was really designed and I by what happened with legislature I don't think the legislature itself understood how act one 27 was originally designed But we picked up some better-weighted students in Roxbury Because the community is less affluent we actually didn't because Because of because there was a previous act called act 140 act 46 that that gave certain incentives for districts to merge and Because of the way our district basically Because because of that and also because of kind of the the ratio of of Roxbury to Montpelier we did not We did not get the role advantage of Roxbury students even though other places in the states that that had similar education Challenges to Roxbury did so in November. We're starting the budget. Did we know at that point? the kinds of Cuts or the diminishing of resources that act one 27 would would bring we learned we started learning in early November the The communication from the agency of the of education To school districts about what all this meant. We knew it was out there The communication was very slow in terms of what all this meant and then when it came it came Kind of in the middle of the fall and it came in very draconian fashion and That's when we learned that Cuts were going to be or the the impacts of the Ed fund from this We're going to be pretty substantial to our district and not just our district but statewide Now in December and December 6th. Yeah, you have to come to Jesus moment And you say to Libby we've got to look for cuts. You know, this is serious. We've got to explore our options Yeah, what brought that about? Well, you know an act one 27 the legislature went and fix it originally it had You know so the the education fund is is a pie And so it it moved the way the pie was distributed, you know from here to here from you know, where it previously was to You know districts that under the new formula had more needs The legislature tried to have it both ways. It so it created this this cap on impacts the local property taxes In the in the first iteration To you know blunt the effect of districts like Montpelier that we're going to Lose a lot of weighted students and thus a lot of of money from the state Basically saying for five years. We will kind of the state will use the education fund To not only shift money to these districts that that under the new weighted formula have higher needs, but also to backfill The money that a lot of districts are losing and what it did was it Did it started to tank the Ed fund very quickly? So the the per pupil per pupil dollar amount going to each district went from 15,000 in our last budget cycle to By the time the legislature fixed it. It was it was at about it was like under eight or or so thousand So it it almost halved The amount of money that was going to districts is because it spread the Ed fund so thin so in December in November or December You discover my goodness. This is real. Yeah Now at that point You're telling Libby look look for areas that can be cut Now yeah, and Libby is telling us that that this is serious. This is serious. Yes Could you talk about the reserve? Because at that point you're sitting on a fairly sizable reserve. How how do we build a reserve like that? What what's the size of the reserve in December? The approximate size, so how do we build it? I think the approximate size was about 1.5 million. I don't have the chart in front of me. Libby did a good job of walking through I think it was around 1.5 million or so. We have to keep approximately 2% Per policy in place so We either it was either 1.5 And we had you know 1.25 or so at our discretion or it was or we have 1.8 but we be committed What 1.5 from the track where was that at that point? Isn't that part of the reserve? That was yeah That was a big so it's bigger than 1.5 million. Yeah, I think it was maybe 1.8 or 1.9 right. Yeah So we're sitting how did we build that reserve is it just cashed it? We is it operating is it what what is so it's it's basically it's money that we budgeted for and didn't spend for whatever reason I think there were a Variety of reasons that that it was built up one I think during co vid There were a lot of expenses that just weren't incurred that were normally incurred that we budgeted for We also had a very good but very conservative budget manager for several years who If a position could theoretically cost us a hundred thousand he put a hundred thousand in he was not gonna say We've got a 75% chance is only gonna cost us 80,000 which some budget managers might do He's like look if this could cost us a hundred thousand let's put a hundred thousand in the budget so we're not caught with our pants down and If it doesn't cost a hundred thousand we're in a good position and if it costs a hundred thousand we're not scrambling for money so between I think co vid and conservative budgeting it was You know there wasn't any huge windfall. It was just a lot of you know this each. Yeah, this teacher Took a single plan instead of a family plan because we budgeted for a family plan because of theoretical So there's 30,000 and You know This you know this program ended up not needing to spend all of all of these funds because you know whatever happened So it was yeah, so chunks of money started coming back into the reserve So you're trying to avoid staff layoffs. Yeah, I assume Now at this point, are we talking about some teacher buyouts? My understanding is that that you know teacher buyouts have been been offered And it was it was definitely I think a tool that was looked at as a way to avoid. Yeah staff layoff So and we have we have natural Natural retirements and people you know otherwise leaving physicians now. What's going on the legislature at this point? I mean they're realizing that they've got a problem so the scrambling Yeah, so the legislators realized they got a problem when he when he first crafted the budget in December we crafted it With this cap in mind That is a cap being one more time explaining the cap. So so so so the original act 127 was that as long as you had purple people spending That did not rise more than 10% Your local taxes were capped at 5% pre CLA so it was 5% and then whatever the CLA boost. How do we get to 23? Oh, well what happened is we we had the 5% cap and then You know our CLA brought up originally. I think there was like 18 or 19 for Firm on Piliar What happened was the legislature realized that the cap was draining The Ed fund so in February It was February early March. They got rid of the cap So that's how we got from 19 to 23 Tuck there's one more out of your control. Yeah, talk about health insurance Yeah, and then health insurance well health insurance You know, I mean the the budget our previous budget was 28 point something You know which up to 32 so when you say it's a level budget that doesn't look like a level budget It's a little budget in terms of we kept all the services level We had two major cost increases one was At about a million dollars in benefits increases because our health care costs went up 16% Which was you know health care cost 10 that is a state plan that we're that is a state plan that we are Yes, we're matters of the locked into We also and this is consistent with what most of the school districts around us did And very well earned our teachers are fantastic We were on the second cycle of two kind of major salary Increases that were pretty large. That was I think another seven or eight hundred thousand. So so we had about two million baked in in Salary and benefit costs just to keep our retain our existing staff now if you're doing teacher buyouts then you've got younger teachers to buy in and Basically to purchase their services and you're bidding against other school districts So pretty much I assume that the teacher raised to some extent is defensive in order to allow us the flexibility to get teachers to bid Successfully against other districts. Yeah, no, we have to stay I mean even with those those increases because I know that you know It might sound like a lot of money some people we are still for central Vermont We are like in the middle of the pack in terms of future compensation so we are we are Competitive but by no means By no means the highest paying district even in central Vermont and then you know, we're also Competing which in and county which which pays more We're up to January and we've got the decision to keep the Roxbury Village School in the budget and Basically to use surplus money in order to try and drive it Down to twenty three percent. Well, we didn't Originally, I mean the original budget. We used some surplus money. I think we used about five or six hundred thousand in the original budget and Then we we phased out a few positions and Then we kind of did did a haircut on a bunch of things on you know, like the school each schools Just kind of general spending budget You know, I think we we kind of pared down some some maintenance and facilities So three hundred and seventy five thousand. Yeah worth of a haircut. Yeah, and then two hundred thousand of facilities and Thirty thousand to athletic equipment and eighteen thousand to technology. Yeah, and some of some of those were added on to the original budget book but we had You know, we had cuts We had cuts in the original budget. I think of about half a million or more Beyond what level spending would have been. Can we get into some of those personnel cuts? What did we what are we losing in this budget from what we have at this day in April? I don't want to get two into personal cuts because it kind of goes goes to position, but Yeah, I think library aid we lost those You know a literacy coach Some instructional assistance Yeah, you know some just general support staff so so those type of reductions. Did we lose any programs? We did not lose any programs So basically the budget that you're proposing right now is Smaller than the other budget by about a million and a half. Yeah, what is that million and a half cut? What what are we losing for a million and a half? What's what's the haircut? I mean the the biggest The the biggest reason for that was is the closure of the Roxbury Village School and sending rocks fending walls all rocks Sending the Roxbury elementary students to Union Elementary School and we'll be able to then pick up some of that in a reserve fund Well by doing that we were able to Not have to go deeper into the reserve funds to get to a lower tax rate. What is the reserve fund at right now? Approximately, I'm not asking for it. Are we still over a million dollars? I I would have to check that I think I think we're slightly below a million dollars for next year Which gives us I think some or maybe right around a million Which it gives us some room? Did we have to hit the reserve fund to work on Montpellier High School after the flooding? No, okay, all of those expenses were covered by insurance. Oh, okay, so that we we got very fortunate with We got very fortunate there So right now we're staring at a budget that You guys don't have a plan. This is plan B. Is there a plan C if this goes down? I I think you you you know we put out some budgets that brought the You know but proposals that brought us to more like 12 11 percent It starts to get it starts to get really painful I'm both for families and for education. That's what you're talking about cutting. I think more deeply into programs You're talking about cutting things like Bussing for UES, which I know would put a lot of strain on families and raise a lot of safety concerns You're talking about bringing our facilities maintenance down to You know just basically what's needed for safety Which may save something over the next year or two, but then you get delayed maintenance And then those things become much more expensive to fix later so So if yeah, if we do have to go to a third budget Then you're you're starting to really I think erode the quality of the schools The state allowed it your board to reopen the budget. Yeah other boards did we didn't why didn't well What was the thinking behind not reopening it the thinking was that we felt we had put out a very responsible and reasonable budget We had not done what some other districts did what some other districts did and is You know, they saw that five percent cap and this is actually one of the reasons that that the The cap backfired. I mean in terms of you're trying to spread it too thin But you know some districts looked at that five percent cap and said Oh, this is a great time since the state's paying for it to put Projects that we might otherwise bond Or pay for another revenue source into our general budget and as long as we're below that 10 percent per people cap We can just we can just rock it up to that 10 percent per people cap put in a bunch of pet projects We have that five percent cap and the state will pay for it. So when the cap went away I think districts that did that had to reopen had to reopen and say we have to take all those out because those are Gonna go to our taxpayers now Yeah, we Yeah Yeah, we we we felt that really other than Then moving the Roxbury students to Union elementary school. There was not a lot of wiggle room for us to reduce our budget and Without hitting a bone without hitting a bone and you know the the feeling on the board was That that move for the Roxbury community was Something that we wanted more time to consider Right now the legislature realizes that they've got a problem Yes What do you as a board? I mean Libby is in constant contact with the superintendent's association probably with our delegation What is the feeling on how that readjustment? That's inevitable. It will be something how it might impact our future budget not this one Next year's budget. I Mean, I think we're gonna be in a better place next year. I think the by getting rid of the cap the Legislature saved the Ed fund from free fall So I think next I think next year there's going to be three factors that will will make it I Don't think it's going to be a walk in the park budget But I think a much easier budget without the type of impacts we have one is I think the Ed fund will be will be stabilized To is we've already taken the the adjustment for the per-people count So that formulaic change has has occurred That's not baked in it's now baked in so So our per-people count will be the second year under the same formula so it will be relatively similar I mean we might lose some we might gain some but it's not going to be the dramatic shift we had where we we lost a Considerable number of weighted pupils under this new system and the third is is that that CLA Bump that we had from the reappraisal is also baked in is also baked in that's that's I mean There probably will be a little bit of an adjustment there But it's not going to be that that draconian 13% so those three factors are all in our favor And I think we'll make for a more stable budget next year stable meaning Possibly ten or under I would certainly hope we are a ten or under next year. I mean I I You know I I realized 14% is a lot for folks 24% was was obviously too high I I hope we can get to I want to make promises about numbers, but certainly below 10% I think would Would be a Big desire and and I would love it to be considerably below 10% You've been on the board long enough. We're not talking about weighted pupils now. We'll talk about pupils. Yes Do you see more pupils fewer pupils of roughly the same number of pupils? Well, my pillow had the advantage for the last several years of being one of the few towns in the state that Was gaining pupils and that appears to have stopped. We appear to be in The newer classes coming in are Starting to see declining numbers. So we have a nice bubble going through We do not seem to be having students at the number that that we've seen them over the last really five or so years So so yeah, our student population appears to be entering a period of decline again So the school board has its eyes set east to Savins pasture and beyond that to country club. I mean, this is where You know, this is this is you can't control that I can't control that But it's a conversation we need to have because you know the the school boards and I think the conversation about education Needs to be put in the context of other conversations. You know housing in Montpelier is is very tight And there's two types of housing we we we don't have we don't have We don't have starter homes that young families can afford and we also like honestly don't have You know the types of home that empty nesters and retired Pillar rights can can downsize into So we've got and we don't have enough apartments and we don't have enough apartments And we don't have a lot of multifamily units which and yeah, I'm not that family is there also often times great places for You know for empty nesters and and seniors to move into There are also great places for You know for young families to buy live there three four years get some equity move on We don't really have much of any of that and then we have You know then we have a income property tax adjustment that You know and and I think right now It's it's the humanitarian thing because we don't want to chase people from their homes Especially they don't have options to go but we have people who You know our are not making the income they made you know when they were younger Who weren't able to just stay in homes that really could accommodate five or six people and there's one or two of them in there So there's there's a lot of empty bedrooms in mob pillar and Not a lot of places for people to go. I want to talk about the physical side of the district for a second. Yeah Union elementary structurally sound, you know, there's a great school Main Street Middle School The Main Street Middle School has It keeps chugging along we've done a good job. I think of of of maintaining it. It's It's bursting at the seams and I don't think it's our flagship building The high school Hydraulically after the flood what is going on? What was the damage that was sustained in the flood? So most of the damage was to the basement we we got Incredibly lucky. What do we do with that basement norm? What were we doing with that basement last school year before the flood? It's it's largely where like the heating units are housed and there's some storage. There was no instructional going on There's no instruction. Yes. So how did we get lucky in the basement? Well, we got lucky because it stayed in the basement and I mean obviously it was a big cleanup job in the basement but insurance largely covered it and If it had gotten to the first floor, I think it would have been unlikely that we would have been able to start school On August whatever 20 whatever are we studying how to keep it from hitting the first floor in the future? We are we are and where is the progress on that? What's the time frame? Well, we're hoping for a report. Yeah, I think relatively soon. We've commissioned a Firm that does engineering that does architecture They've they've done some some community Processes, but but they're taking a look at kind of what what the options are for that site in that building So you'll have a whole series of public hearings again on those options. Well, we'll certainly put them out You know, you know mob pillar is is land constrained There's there are not a lot of places to put a Major high school that that are available And except for country clover Yeah, and well, we're not gonna do that. Yes. Yeah, and as you know that that That's a you know a different It's also a golf shot away from you 32 high school exactly some people's attention This is your chance to explain the track when it's the track going in what is the track and Basically, what are we getting for $400,000? So, you know the the board originally Set aside a good portion of the reserve to Update a track. We have a track from from from hell Yeah, we have a track from 1972 that looks like a track from 1972. I Understand this was controversial in the community. I think I think we have to have a little bit of soul-searching Because I think in most communities a track we have would be unacceptable and well, what are we getting? The new track look like and so we're not getting we're not getting a new track So we we uncover that fun What we're doing right now is we're making investments in the current track to essentially make it safe It's it's in very poor condition So how did the flood affect that and would the next flood? Affect your your version of the track. Yeah, the flood surprisingly the other field was actually Well designed to drain the tread that the flood did not do a ton of damage Well, that's good to the track, which is good. It's it's more of the fact that it's You know 52 years old and and just has not That maintenance or upkeep. Yeah, it's out of maintenance or upkeep. So So we are we have set aside up to $400,000 to do that maintenance and upkeep Will it be ready for the next school year? I'm not sure exactly what is gonna be ready. I mean, it's it's it's not ready now And I would have to talk to Andrew LaRosa who's the facilities director about when exactly I mean I think they are planning to do work on it, you know, this this construction season but it will be it will be the same track but With improvements to make it safe and functional So the bottom line on this budget, which you hope to pass is That it's a responsible budget. It's a very responsible that took a lot of deliberation the board worked Incredibly hard on this budget that required compromises That were extremely painful particularly for the people in Rocksbury. Yeah, no very very painful and I I want to you know stress the You know the impact on the Rocksbury community, I mean I have full faith that we will Transition those kids to UES in a way that that will be well, they'll be welcome. Well, they'll be welcome It'll be cab passion of kind. I think they will all get an excellent excellent education You know Rocksbury is a is a small tight-hit community. That's really trying to to rebuild and revitalize You know that schools is a centerpiece of that community and to Make a major decision about that school as quickly as we did was was both hard and Yeah, I don't think anybody wanted to do it this way At the same time the board recognizes that Getting that rate down to ten or below is really a priority for the board Yeah, if at all possible getting it down to ten or below We also heard a lot from the Montpelier community that Yeah From from a purely educational perspective That was the place where we could make the most significant cut that would have long-term impacts that would be a long-term savings and Get the The tax rate down to something more reasonable and I think I think the mox but Montpelier community Was We got strong signals that you know people voted for the budget for I think a variety of reasons but I think it was clear that there was a substantial portion of the Montpelier community that that really felt strongly that that That we could not afford to continue to Educate our elementary students at two elementary schools, but at the same time the 23% Was a hard pill for everyone to swallow. It was a hard pill for everyone to swallow and For good reason. It's a high number and then people are people are stressed and You know, we're we're not the only place prices are going up for folks, right, right, but the 14% Isn't the board doesn't see that as a new norm No, I really see that as a result of two things which I think are both short-term one is one is the CLA bump, but I think the other thing is is Is the adjustment of Act 27 in terms of our weighted peoples and and both of those are not going to be present next year Jim I I wish you good luck and again, I'll tell you people that get out and vote You know you might be for this you might be against it, but let's let's weigh in there are schools It's our tax rate and I would encourage you as I always do to go out and vote encourage others to vote And I thank Jim for appearing on my period of civic form, and I thank you for watching it