 All right, we're live hi Hello everyone You're the leader we are fearless leader. Oh crap. I'm supposed to lead You know Yeah, I know I know I know Welcome to the first meeting of the Jenkins pipeline offering SIG The plan going forward is to have these roughly monthly Well, I'm tentatively planning to do the next one in three weeks So it doesn't overlap with kube-con because I know I'm gonna be attending that Well, if we went for four weeks anyway We'll talk about schedule in such later so In case I hadn't already Forcefully introduced myself to you at some earlier point in time Mainly Jenkins worlds since I have that most of you at one of the other of this year's Jenkins worlds I'm Andrew Bayer or Andrew Bayer if you're European, I will answer to both I'm a An engineer on pipeline here at cloud these longtime Jenkins contributor declarative author And I guess I'm believed for the SIG Uh Anybody else want to introduce themselves don't feel an obligation. You don't need to Hi, I'm Sam Vanort. I'm the somewhat quieter partner in the pipeline endeavors I do a lot of the stuff behind the scenes for the guts of pipeline and the nasty gnarly bits that no one in their right mind would touch I Can go next my name is Marty Jackson. I work at sysdig as software engineer I am the maintainer of the Prometheus Jenkins plug-in Long-time listener first-time caller and Yeah, that's me I'll go next my name is Devon news bomb. I work at cloud beads. I'm also on the pipeline team working in various areas, but generally lots of kind of Miscellaneous maintenance on the pipeline side. That's all for me. Hi. I'm Liam. I am not displaying myself right now Because I wanted to stop in and say Uh, yeah, here's the agenda. Here's the link. It's been posted in the In the the Gitter channel on Okay, and it will also be it's also posted on the calendar Media schedule the schedule the meeting point for this meeting so you can pull it from there and I'm an evangelist at Jacob's evangelist Yeah, I go next. I'm Mike Warner. I work at T systems multimedia solutions in Germany Dresden And I'm developing the shared lobby for a couple of services. I can go next my name is Christian I am from Norway, and I've been in multiple companies and almost all of them Working with the Jenkins pipelines and now more often or not. I'm the one ending up being the main author on premise. So Glad to be here. All right, Austin or Bobby or Oleg. You're the remainers I go My name is Austin with I work at home away, which is a business unit of Expedia calm I had built most of the platforms and frameworks with which pipelines are Delivered and used by our developers at home away, and I'm looking to Share the rest of that with the rest of the world. So and do you hear me by the way? Yes, we do. Yeah, just Notification so my name is Alec Natasha from Jenkins core maintainer Jenkins ambassador and actually an active pipeline user So I'm here because I'm interested in more pipeline development, especially in library development development tools debugging, etc So, yep, and I'm also Jenkins j-soc or cut means so I'm also here to do you in order to get some j-soc projects for this year Oleg always likes to get people sucked into commuting getting involved with Google summer of code. Just as a Warning to you. I mean heads up. No, I meant morning and general community awesomeness as well Like on hackathons and stuff like that. Yeah I like that. Okay, so it's only me left then I guess I'm Bobby Let me Quickly say hi, I Work on the currently on the pipeline team Talbis, but I've been doing various things in Jenkins throughout the years Yes, that's it I Wait just a quick note. We are we're not actually at capacity. We are close to it. I mean anyone Has one to get in and introduce themselves Please do so on the given channel and We'll try and figure out ways to make this maybe so we'll get in Yeah, it is great to see this many attendees for the first meeting so now we'll Which is Liam who is going to talk about pipeline documentation and I assume talk some about where its current state is and What we can do to improve it, but I'm guessing Yeah, your guess is as good as mine I wanted to make sure that we had this item on the list to start with because it's one of the areas it's That I think is going to help people author pipelines More often and more easily and I wanted to just put this out here as a point we had well, we've had actually a few contributions recently to improving the pipeline documentation, which has been cool to see At the same point going back and looking at them people are adding things like oh, right. These are things that we didn't fully smooth out and make great about the Pipeline documentation when we create things such as the in the one example is the Jira take it for this Figuring out what the names of things are so that we can talk about them consistently whether something is a section or a directive or parameter or Cuz just calling everything a block is known to cause confusion so That's one example of things that we need to work on and try and figure out how to make better So it's that people can have an easier time finding and I'm wondering if anyone else has any passion for writing documentation or interest Everyone that knows me will tell you that I do though I would not necessarily ordinarily volunteer that as a descriptor of myself since you asked. Yes I am extremely passionate about quality documentation Okay, so You don't want that for me Yeah, in my case, I'm really interested in Developer documentation, so I've already just started drafting. I think called pipeline doc, which is actually a groovy dog But for pipeline libraries I'm not sure whether it qualifies for the documentation, but it's generally something I'm interested in I just want to kind of get a sense for what Raise their hand for this and you get some initial ideas that groovy doc is an interesting point By playing dog because pipeline libraries are not exactly groovy and groovy doc is actually its own little weird world anyway Yeah, so effectively what my first prototype was based on Java doc not on groovy doc It's kind of weird I believe And thank you. I've already contributed some chunks into the pipeline documentation I probably will continue to do that. Sorry. I was trying to find my appropriate tab So, yeah, I'm not I figure who will be Since we're all interested in this, I figure there'll be a general like everyone's everyone's doing this but also that having a sort of a first people that are that are high on this list of wanting to be involved and Thank you, sir If I may shoot from the sideline a rather new bitch question I got the Jenkins IO doc book pipeline web page open now and For the life of me just having scheme scrolled up and down I cannot see any link to a github resource where to make PR sort of edit button is Yeah, no, well, you're not blind, but you are It is hidden. I can actually show you where it is Right down here Currently your screen is not pinned so probably you too for watchers Yeah, so what I figured is as long as I keep talking nobody else talks They can actually see what I'm taking actually see Okay Right, so it's it's it's not easy to find it's And this was brought up at the computer. So I'm gonna actually I was like it's not there Daniel and several of the book. Yes, it is So Yeah, making this something making this better would also be part of that so to improve this page We should note that is that some of this is general what a website improvement that would make document the documentation better And some of it is specific to pipeline I think I was there's also been some mention of the Left side with drop-down right side Why do we have this multiple table of content structure as another like okay? It's general formatting of this thing should be better. I'd rather like the right side table of contents There are different levels of detail without the right side. I would be lost trying to navigate the site Fair okay, so I would they are useful but Counter like you were sorry didn't interrupt or starting to say is that it could maybe be a bit easier to minimax So they don't take as much space Yeah, point I was trying to make about the right-hand side is it offers direct access to Sections that have no direct access or index on the left as long as that function is served somehow, right? That's that's fine. It doesn't have to stay exactly as it is, but it does serve a Navigational purpose to me that I would miss if it went away. Oh, yeah, so I mean this for example having all of these Things on the right-hand side up here on the left would be another way to do this, but I don't know if it's possible so there's There's work to be done there You guys cool one thing. I think it's worth bringing up in terms of the documentation is that there's two main Not I guess divisions may be a little bit much of the documentation. There's these stuff that like the pipeline syntax page like the getting started and Using etc etc that are completely written by hand. They're you know written for humans by humans and then there's the pipeline reference which also shows up in Things like the snippet generator or Inline help if I remember correctly that can let you see what all steps are available on your master and what all the arguments and Their possible values are for all of those steps, which is Ugly as hell But because it's automatically generated from the help docs that are Committed into Get for each of the steps and Auto Populating downwards for possible parameter values and when there are things that themselves take parameters and it's other you know recurses down further and It's something that could definitely look better. So if there's that's that's something where It's a giant maze of noise right now, but I think it's it's worth remembering and taking into account because that's I Think one of the problems we have this is discovery of steps and understanding how to use steps and Yeah, that's that's a pain Just wanted to bring that up. Yeah, I mean we have the I tried to pipeline steps references the The one in particular I'm talking about that. Yeah, there you go. So Where's that? Dot pipe and it's outside of the hand. Yeah, and While the front page isn't that bad except for the fact that there's you know Too many steps. Well, let's go on forever here speaking of something that could use a table of contents Yeah, and some of the steps will just be a goddamn nightmare because you end up clicking into Something that for example takes parameters takes You know build parameters and you end up with just recursive monsters. Well, right Yeah, and when you click on just the step it only gets you to the plug-in page instead to the step directly. Yeah, oh The first one is not the But if you click the last one inside a plug-in it only gets you to the top page of the plug-in, right? Right, right. So if I click on this one here, it still takes me to the top Yeah, that looks like there's a bug there in the anchor Oh, yeah, I see it. There it is So what it's worth? I really like the snippet generator proper on a running Jenkins master as a way to discover and learn how to use steps It is not deep linkable But more than that you probably couldn't possibly install every plug-in in the world on one master and use that as the reference I'm definitely sure mechanism that by which the snippet generator UI is Rendered and becomes into an interactive discovery tool for people. I wish that I could send people there instead of To the deep links on this documentation or to something like the actual interactive snippet generator I feel like that would give them a much better start figuring out how to interact with and use the steps that exist That's an interesting point like Could we I mean regenerate this pipeline steps reference which means there is a point there's somewhere where we actually have this information That it seems that there would be easy there should be some way to Load that into a web page that then behaves somewhat likely to generate it Yeah, we have to build a one-off app a separate app for yeah And the hard part would be doable hard part is the snippet generator allows using actual Objects in the JVM to render its UI And so if you don't actually have one of the plugins installed and it's using some custom object as its data object Then you won't be able to fully render that properly you Probably like the code that runs a Jenkins snippet generator when a plug-in is installed is probably the minimum necessary To actually do that. You don't maybe need the rest of a Jenkins master, but I think you do need the Jenkins framework in order for The snippet generator to correctly render in all cases, but maybe 80% of cases you could probably do without that Right, and maybe the 80% case is still a win That's an interesting idea. I think one of the things you'd be missing a lot of is Any kind of like the fall values generation or drop-downs or stuff I think it would probably not trigger to get that working because it's just like arbitrary stapler methods that fill that in Yeah, you could maybe load up dummy values of the Jenkins core objects like one W username password convention I mean most drop-downs are gonna be I don't know well Which someone could survey and see what most drop-downs are but yeah, you're right And that goes back that goes to my earlier point of without a running Jenkins master It'll be it'd be hard to Render it and even in some cases, you know, maybe if the only thing if it's some plug-in that deals with authentication Maybe the snippet generator on the Jenkins master at your company has a useful drop-down But there's no way that that's gonna have any kind of Not no way, but it might be very hard to have useful even referenced dummy drop-down values But definitely I would prefer to send my developers to a live snippet generator than to this page Yeah, stuff like with tool or the build step will not be as useful because you need to actually have a You have tools installed or other jobs to build but yeah, the job DSL plug-in Which I think you actually want It gets the GitHub pages there you go Why was I pointing at the screen Does have it's I think a better UI for reference and its playground is kind of interesting as well well in particular because the job DSL is just movie and all of their stuff is They can basically run over it in in a very Insistent way, so it doesn't doesn't have that sort of like do anything you want stapler It's not as pluggable true. I mean it has its problems, but I'm just saying like It provides this You know ability here is kind of okay, so we could look at this as one example like hey if we can achieve this this is a I think the other thing that I see a lot of requests for and it came out at Jenkins World Europe as well was Snippets of code that do some concrete task kind of showing how to assemble something from different steps Which is like a higher-level construct on top of just the steps reference, right? Yes, which I think Doubtails into our next subject of examples. Okay. Let's let's move on to that Is it something like snippets we have in a common pipeline? I mean when you define pipeline directly in Jenkins So that's that that's something to discuss in the context of examples is The when you create a pipeline job not a multi-branch for the standalone pipeline job in the Jenkins UI You can pre-populate it with hello world and I think there's another example there That may be something that we want to look at Adding better examples in but we don't want to go too crazy with that changes would have to go through a workflow CPS plug-in release they can just get loaded and ugly and more and more Users are not actually creating jobs through the UI That way they're creating jobs Through multi-branch and so they may not actually ever see that they may just their interaction may just be with the The juggits file itself IDE support for pipeline by the way. Yes, love you that somehow I As I say it literally every time that I'm talking in front of people about any of this if anybody knows how to write IntelliJ Eclipse VS code etc. Plug-ins. Please help. There was a blog post that went up last week on triggits.io from someone who wrote a VS code plugin to Do declarative pipeline linting. Yeah, there's also time for it We need some canonical source of the signatures for all the steps So that the IDEs could autocomplete which would be served by perhaps a solution to the documentation section Jenkins master and Then all that information is available Just to be clear you haven't installed yet There's a general need for some sort of metadata that is exposed for describing Basically how steps operate Independent of having it running on the master Like that's something that's come up a couple of different times in a couple of different related areas Just to be clear. We do have the GDSL file that is auto-generated, right? Or Am I missing something else? It's been removed. Maybe It's for scripted and it's Not great and I never could get it to work on my IntelliJ setup So I eventually just gave up on it and I don't believe it's ever worked for Eclipse the DSLD has never actually worked But I could try that once an IntelliJ it worked for me but it was damn slow it was like a Like a half a second delay after every character I typed so it was nearly unusual unusable I Had the same experience on IntelliJ. I mean the jelly file config files and the Step descriptor java object are kind of close to that Maybe a bit hard to actually get out and into something else But I think that's the closest I've seen to a canonical definition of Static declarative definition of how a step Works Yeah, I was thinking in my ideal world that I am completely incapable of actually implementing What I always thought would make sense would be something to talk to the Jenkins API that Has information on Each step etc. We might need to expose stuff that is currently not Well exposed but is present To be able to have the IDE plugins talk directly to Jenkins is like hey What Steps are available. Can I on you this master what parameters are available etc. And Something similar for declarative I mean heck. Yeah, the snippet generator is doing the right thing. I just want that in my IDE instead of on a web page But I don't suppose we have anybody here who actually knows how to write ID plugins And it's not beans and eclipse a lot of these eclipse Okay, anybody here who has experience and has time to work on It's sure off in the distance alone coyote howls tumbleweeds roll across the desert If any of you have friends who have worked on eclipse IntelliJ etc. Plugins, and you think might be interested in this sort of thing That would be great if you could find a way to get him involved Or if it's something that somebody would like to you know spend some time on Learning how to do it. That would be you know also very cool. I Just haven't had the time to Throw myself into that because you know I have a job Sadly, yeah bonus points for writing a debugger We won't even talk about the buggers right now. I mean other that's for another agenda. I mean we had a proposal for that Yeah, I even proposed to write it one or two years ago I'm planning to have Testability as one of the agenda items for the next I mean I had a way to do that But let's We are we're heading off the weeds that they're very interesting weeds and the forest is large Let us continue on with with our agenda That this is a good. This is it obviously like a It's interesting that that I had no plan for this thus we now have like well one to be perfect It's like six work items like okay, what do we do next? Different directions we can take this So More to be discussed here. Obviously. I'll try and aim it. Yeah, but let's let's move on to They that Jenkins files examples and shared libraries and so so Yeah, so a lot of this came out of the discussions that we had at contributor summit in these where we were talking about how can people Help contribute to the SIG and help improve the authoring experience Without having to go write complicated plugins or test frameworks, which somebody here has written the test framework I don't know who it. Oh, yeah, it's awesome One of I think three test frameworks that are floating around now, but anyway and What we ended up realizing was that one of the Real challenges to offering pipelines these days is that It's a blank slate you can make things it's not that hard to figure out how to make things work but It's not as easy as it should be and it's a lot easier to Have a whole bunch of the result is a lot of unique snowflakes a lot of different ways of Accomplishing the same thing without a sing a really consistent standard so people end up just saying oh well this is what I found on stack overflow, so I'll copy paste that or something like that and that We've got hello world examples sure and there is the pipeline examples repo that no one looks at because we never did a Good job doing anything with it, but it exists so It feels to me like one of the first areas we can really make a And impact is figuring out how we want to share examples how we want to Make them available to people and make them more easily discoverable and how we want to curate those examples how we want to decide what are the It plays into best practices, but I think it's a preliminary step before we go full-on defining best practices Saying okay, how do we decide which of these three or four examples that people have put forward is the one that we want to Bless the one that we want to say okay This is the the the best example. We've got it's not that we want to actually reject other examples, but that We don't want to have For examples doing exactly you know accomplishing exactly the same things are written in different ways if you don't need So Austin you seem to be itching to say something You're muted there. Yes. I have unmuted myself. I think That whichever examples are chosen Rather than a collection of static files in a repository that somebody may or may not trust when they find them and notice a commit date Or years in the past they should all be live There should be a dedicated Jenkins master or masters for these examples and every example that is put forth the world Someone can go and look at it having actually run and perhaps actually run it themselves to Not you could to complete the example from just here's some code that someone wrote We're pretty sure it's good to here's some code that someone's wrote. We're pretty sure it's good You can see how it behaves does that seem like you're the starting point that you want to select for yourself Does that seem like it shows you how to do the thing that you were trying to figure out how to do? I think that would be much much more valuable than an alleged Blessed collection of files just sitting in a repo somewhere So we could utilize new tools like Jenkins file runners or whatever to create quick demos if you want Though if you wanted them with your eye, it would be a bit more tricky, but it's still possible That definitely opens a potential security gotchas anytime you let someone run something Anonymously I mean obviously we can control Faster in it run on their laptop but make it runnable You know or the Jenkins file runner, but something so that they can see it actually very easily Get to the point where they can see the thing actually doing what it claims to do So, uh, I don't know the Jenkins runner that Oleg mentioned But how about a standardized to docker compose with a default docker file? Where people gather on generators and just know have if you would like an extra make file with the default rules make run or whatever That's something we're just gonna suggest I like that idea I have something that might be three quarters of the way there for that It's actually standing up a full environment with including build agent master repose jobs some sample code um Which might be the starting point we need for something like that One caveat to that is that um for anyone who would like docker and docker Which would be a natural consequence of doing this with docker. I memory serves right? There's a couple of Outstanding g-racies that are kind of blocking best practices there But yeah, I've also got examples of make files docker compose files docker files Whatever so I could have contributed with and have people mess around with Yeah, actually, uh docker and docker is a problem, but there are workarounds for demos I paste one link to the gitter chat. It's a demo for Jenkins configuration is called actually a demo for ci Jenkins IO and pipeline library development It's the demo used for developing Jenkins pipeline locally, etc and effectively Uses configuration as code to provision instance. It works around docker and docker and you can just start it if you want That makes me think that we should uh redo your developing pipelines locally Quick talk from niece and record it at some point. It's already recorded. I mean It was the Jenkins one met up one year ago. I'm going to repeat it because uh, there are some updates And I'm currently working on Jenkins father another based talk for that I'll find that link because I know I have it and I'll send it to the mailing list And I believe you did uh, we we did get it on the the gitter channel a couple weeks ago Um, we're um about Still a little over halfway through the meeting here. I'm just going to Hop in here for a second. So anybody who's Watching if you're you'd like to participate you can also jump on the gitter channel I live near a fire station and answering Sirens anyways, um You hop on the gitter channel and I get the participate link and join in I think there's still one slot off Oh Nope, uh, martin, uh, I'm sure I butchered that uh took the slot Okay, so anyways, uh, you know, I'll just get on the gitter channel and you can Yell at us about about things that way and we can interact that way. So anyways continue Uh, so yeah, there's definitely I so that's one angle that I think we should definitely pursue which is uh, technical uh improvements to how people can actually consume The examples and try to get somewhere with them um but I want to to loop back to the part that then I Was I'd actually think if we can come back to this. I'm not saying we won't talk about this, but uh how we can both Get people to to contribute examples. I mean, I think probably the the participants in the sake are a great uh source of an initial pile of of very good examples, but Uh, there's going to be common things that none of us are actually working on or none of us are doing So how can we get people to contribute examples? And how do we curate them? How do we try? How do we decide which? examples are The ones we should go with What I was I I don't have good ideas on the how do we get people to contribute examples that's I've never been good at figuring out how to get people to contribute to things the fact that 10 plus people have shown up for this is far and away the most successful community collaboration. I've ever done But uh, so so suggestions are definitely uh, appreciated there and my thoughts on in terms of the curating is that we uh uh Have probably a get repo somewhere or or a section of the Uh docks pages or something where we actually contribute examples because I think that we should not just have, uh the dynamically executable examples that we should have, uh The examples on the web so they're searchable, etc. And so that they can have some Description of what they're doing and why uh, so it's not just here's a get repo that has a bunch of examples in it with Maybe some comments, but you know a paragraph or two of here's why I'm this is being done this way here is uh Why it shows this approach over another, uh And things like that so I was thinking that we could have a uh A group in get an alias and get in github that We could drop on reviews for You know contributors to the sig to discuss whether a particular example is The right way to go And try to have a consensus so we don't just take an example if just one person says it's good Nobody else has anything Or we don't take an example if there's uh You know no consensus that it's uh a good example. I know maybe i'm throwing a little bit too much Uh bureaucracy up front, but I think that again if we look at the pipeline examples repo There's there's a fair number of down admittedly stale examples there, but they're just you know throwing throwing at the wall and Uh The signal to noise ratio is not necessarily positive Uh Go ahead You know what could help with keeping that quality up and minimizing bureaucracy is Maybe a little bit ahead of time, but probably mostly emerging from that review A set of general guidelines or standards and things you know The addressing the forks to pick one common example Stage node or node stage when ought you do one or the other that kind of thing or general shape your pipeline this way A set of standards would help guide new examples and Would test our understanding of what we think actually is good I think most of those would probably emerge from the reviews that you suggest and I think that's a really cool idea Well, does that sound like something others would be interested in contributing to? uh both in terms of contributing examples yourself And in terms of reviewing and discussing examples that are contributed by others so Sorry, um I think that I would be and I would definitely be interested in participating in that I also think that we need to Uh to encourage contribution we we need to make the The friction related to contributing examples as low as possible. Yeah, and these You know curation and high quality content and low friction Um often do not go hand in hand That is true, uh, but I think it's important I I could be wrong like I said, I could be overdoing it. No, I agree with your point. I I think that uh having the I haven't said the I agree with your point about the examples Good hub uh we throw it has a lot of in for a thing though. Um Some which is out of date most of which is Underdeveloped But it each of those examples I think could be a Good uh kernel for A like each one of those is it could be an article unto itself like Talking about how do I My most kind of most common thing I have I have been asked at Conferences and anywhere else is how do I do get hub notifications? We've seen this come up on On the Gitter channel uh under Jenkins Help their channel and elsewhere multiple times like how do I need notifications and each time I'm like, well, here's the blog post that I wrote two years ago that's still completely appropriate to this So in one sense, there's the discovery. Yes. I think the other side of this There's a third point, which is how do we make it how do we make it easy to make how do we make it? How do we curate it and then how do we make it discoverable? Yeah, I think the curation make would improve that But there's a there's some gap there as well I think we've worried a little bit too much about curation over time and I think that The result has been that we have a lot less comprehensive documentation than a lot of other places unless you count Blog posts where people don't really know how to assess if they're still current or not So I would lean as much as possible on the side of Being more permissive in general at this point And the effort to get the content up there and then once we have more more of a body of content Focus on kind of trying to clean it up a bit more If community can also participate in Identifying and rating the quality of the content in addition to just submitting in the first place that might do something to Help control the quality over time You know a rating system upvote downvote or something like that to where when something goes out of state One of we 10 doesn't have to notice Maybe five people find it and it doesn't work for them and they indicate that this isn't good anymore I mean ideally that would be something like a wiki where you can flag it for admins to review but We we did have a wiki for Jenkins Just throwing it out there Yeah, but we've tried various attempts at upvote downvote for like plugin releases and things like that and there's been some value in that but not I think enough to have merited the effort that we've had to put in I agree with that. I I think there's That's a good example of a system that offers it Stack exchange and the stack exchange family is another kind of family that offers a kind of a more streamlined approach to it but i'm not sure if it's I wonder if it's worth standing up a dedicated stack exchange site for Jenkins or not I I would have questions if it's I don't know like I literally don't know what the admin overhead is like for that I have no idea Perhaps worth finding out the answer Indeed I really need to join testing on that Cool, so that's one possibility one second uh But there's some notes being taken here just FYI so people know that like there's pause maybe like kind of a processing on On what we're just talking about. Yeah, because I never remember anything if I don't write it down I actually need to look at it again, but if I don't write it down, I will never be so I think that that in terms of discoverability uh, the first thing we need Is a landing page It it's right now we've got Even if we're just talking about stuff that is you know supposedly from The Jenkins community and not scattered off on stack overflow or something like that We've got the pipeline examples repo. We've got Bits of examples inside the pipeline syntax reference Other stuff than the Jenkins.io docs and blog posts, but we don't have one place That's the point where you go. Here's where you go look to find examples And to find how do I do x? Regardless of what contents in there we just don't have that place to start As a first level Solution we might simply look at linking to appropriate sections of those other resources within a top level page Since that's the low effort high gain approach. Yeah, definitely With probably a little more detail. Maybe you know again the one or two sentences saying what we're linking to rather than just a page of Yeah, you know Hell Here you know this random plate page for for all the goodness and wonderfulness and win Yeah, with no explanation of what that one is A good sales pitch on that landing page for this is what this page is for and how Continuing to read it will benefit you. I think is important to distinguish this from the cornucopia of additional similarly Styled and otherwise jankins related pages that exist on the internet. Yeah I think that's that's definitely the first the the necessary first step for discovery and probably the necessary first step now that you guys have all brought this up to the Encouraging contribution and curation and Demoability is it we might as well start with the Scattered information we have now and just have somewhere you can go find where to find all of that scattered information Which I guess means both that we need to go through the you know the jankins sites content and through pipeline examples and Perhaps there's that overflow to find the content that already exists that's worth Putting up there and that we need to generate. Yeah, actually write that page and Populated et cetera that sounds like a good first step Taking a quick google at stock exchange and it looks like that's a little bit more problematic Because that's sort of centrally managed and we have to put together a pitch and proposal and get it approved from them So that might be something that's a long-term project that we could do But I'd say we should probably focus in working with what we can get quick wins on Unless we want to kind of co-opt one of the existing stock exchange pages like dev ops Well seeing as this is a open source volunteer interest exchange or Effort why won't why just a random idea would be to ask stack exchange for a promotion or Having them pay for a teams So service that it's huge deal about teams for the summer One that you know everybody could access freely without any accounts Will be on the stack exchange economy So I want to circle on there are a couple of things that we mentioned that I've added to notes here, but also The the low friction contribution for someone like a wiki Is great, but it needs and the same thing happens. I think with get a poor professor. Okay stack exchange you get this is But you get both with wiki and stack exchange you get this problem of things going to stale and the the onus for Keeping things up to date is not on the person who posted that Or who made the change but on the people that are still there and So it leads to drive-bys Where someone oh, I want to talk about this. I've said it I run off and that's that's That's the curation side of that problem. I know that we I I see what you're saying something about like that's important that we have the information But we've we did have any look at you, right and what that led to was a sort of a pile of of food rather than a A directed structure that that actually had a strong Guidance and sensibility to it. Um, so there's there's a balance I I think we do need we need to have that ability for people to do those drive-bys and that You know kind of in order to do smaller contributions that don't require a lot of effort on that part But we also need to balance that against the effort required To maintain that what is essentially code Maybe we could set up a plan of every three or six months going through the examples and Somebody from the sig saying, okay. Yep. This example is is still valid just a a quick Here, you know, yes. No, and then if it's not still valid it can it be modified to be valid Sort of a flag a flag structure where you just sort of go through and flag it and say, okay, this needs attention right, um Having some some way to automatically test these to make sure they still run would be great too as was being pointed out, I think as well so Yeah, some way there's like flag like a again human process of okay, well, we're just gonna flag this Yeah, and there's two kinds of validity that you want to care about right one is the doesn't even run at all anymore Which unit testing or other testing frameworks can answer and the other one is is this Semantically valid to advise people to do anymore. Is this pattern still good? And that's the one that's going to be harder to figure out and require maybe a human to look at it yeah and not just a human but a someone who is More familiar with pipeline and and so it isn't that that particular aspect is one that we can't Find off to hey anybody can come tell us whether or not this is semantically correct They're like, well it runs got that group of reviewers accepting examples in the first place Just kick them back into that group and have them review it again Yeah, whatever the process is for trusting that authority to say something is good You know, we've already got that established just hey take another look at this for us and take advantage of the fact that we've got this at least initial core of enfranchised pipeline users of maybe not full-blown power users, but we've got You know pipeline devs we've got people, you know writing rather advanced pipelines and extensions to pipelines and people who are Just writing pipelines but are interested in In the art of writing pipeline shall we say and in Improving them it's a good. I think it's a good group just to to take advantage of and I think we should do that Maybe make that a one of the sort of a continuing agenda item of like okay today. We're going to talk about two two to three examples. We're just going to you know walk through them These are the three we'll you know read them beforehand Um, and then if you have any comments you can you know discuss them in on on during this meeting each time I think that'd be a great way for us to also sort of spread Uh, the expertise that's present in the room to a larger audience. I mean have a video that I'm gonna be able to talk about I think that'd be really interesting One question I would have about runability testing is though is that a lot of these Snippets to do something meaningful. They have to interact with an external system like running a request or deploying for a repository uh, so that's That's gonna be a little trickier docker is docker is good I've done a lot with docker, but it's not a silver bullet for that You still have to configure containers for those pieces and not all of those Like if you're deploying to artifactory or something Or nexus you're not necessarily going to have a freebie container that you can throw in there um one Potential solution for that. I know that pracmas a lot of example repos on github that they Keep using as example demos for their customers actually building a cradle app or maven app or whatever and then having a artifactory or nexus sonotype docker container receiving this binary and trying to pull from it and Exemplifying and deploy Maybe that could be a way to go. I don't know throwing it out there That's interesting. I didn't know about that. I have an example repo in that one that I linked earlier But it doesn't include things like nexus or artifactory to go with that if they're friendly to playing with that External systems playing with that they that might be a really good option All right, so i'm going to give this a five minute warning here real quick. Sorry to jump in We are coming up on the the hour or the before pay only or Behaves significantly differently when you pay for enterprise systems. Yeah, that is a problem but docker plus using github.com is how to get an enterprise using Docker, you know some public docker registry. I think a large percentage of those external system interactions Could be orchestrated to have something useful And maybe I mean maybe it has to owe off somehow as you like hey This is an example of how to write to artifactory if you've got an artifactory that you have access to you can try this example Like you know, but there is definitely ground to be one there even in those cases I think And certainly advice trying to try Yeah Thanks, austin. Um, so uh, yeah, we're coming up on the end of the meeting uh slot here I think we covered a lot of ground and I just want to make sure that we Uh finished up our discussion in terms of making sure that we have the next meeting schedule and Have some ideas on what we're going to do next obviously Maybe we've started gathering information here. So Yep, uh, so I definitely want to touch on Uh, testability as our you know sandbox topic for next time in part because otherwise, I think austin might Uh, hunt me down skill steal my skin and pretend to be me to take over and have that uh topic of discussion But also because well Yeah, I'm sure that's who I am the last three jankins worlds that I've attended the two this year and last years in san francisco all featured at least one talk on a test framework, uh for pipeline so that's Three different test frameworks that are floating around plus jankins file runner plus this plus that so I think it's great that there that many people want to Make testing a viable and testing of pipelines and shared libraries a viable thing Uh, I think it's less great that there are Uh that there hasn't been a lot of of collaboration across these efforts and I'd like to try to unify those and Uh focus efforts in one direction together and get it documented Get it in the jagged ci or et cetera so that It can actually be used by people besides the authors um and isn't dependent on just one Contributor or one set of contributors at a specific shop Continuing to be active on that project, you know the standard open source challenges. So Definitely, that's worth thinking about. Uh, I think that's It's going to be a really great conversation. I'll make sure to ping the other Uh contributors to testing frameworks to try to make sure that they can show up too And then obviously we'll have follow-up on the documentation and examples discussions for this meeting But I'll also be sending out emails To the mailing list proposing possible next steps to try to get some kind of Uh for progress by next meeting Um because otherwise it's easy to just have meetings every uh month where we talk about how we should do something um And then uh since we are at closing time, uh Next meeting, uh, how about December 5th same time? Does that sound if that sounds viable to people? I mean we'll still obviously send out emails, et cetera Tuesdays are not great for those of us on the pipeline team at cloudv's because we have our Uh teams stand up on Tuesdays and Thursdays at the same time as this meeting, which is why I Am suggesting maybe Wednesday, but well, I'll throw up a uh doodle. I think it is uh for choosing a day But I think this time seems to be good One maybe we could do it a bit earlier because uh jinkton security team members have Meetings regularly at 5 p.m. UTC All right, well, but we'll do a doodle and about which day is best and then we'll nail down which time is best in that day because I think it is I know that this is not the most pleasant time for uh Pacific uh time zone people, uh, but I want to make sure that we can include Yeah, yes those guys I was being nice to you Uh, and as an x-specific time zone person. I I also understand but I think it's it's really important and valuable that we have Europe involved as well. It's a shame that we can't also have east asia involved, but you know The planet is a globe sadly And so I'll but I think that probably is a good place to start I'll send out uh doodles and emails about that, but uh Yeah, I think we're wrapping up. Thank you all very much for attending and or watching and participating Andrew thanks for thanks for organizing this. No problem and and liam. Thanks for actually clicking the right buttons to make this happen Click button done All right. Hey, it's still a button that I didn't know how to click so all right So yeah, thanks again, and uh, see you all on the the channel and on the Nameless stand at the future meetings. Thanks again everybody