 So I'm gonna start by asking you to tell us your name and anything you want to share with us so we can get to know You a little bit better. Yep. Yep, so so please I'm good. I'll be happy to my name is Michael Cato I'm the senior vice president and chief information officer here at Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine I've been here just over two years But I have worked in higher education IT since 2003 That's right. No 2001. What am I saying? So it's been 20 years next year will be 20 years And it's actually been it's been a lot of fun I've worked now for the last six years in small to the largest institutions or private institutions But the bulk of my career was in larger public institutions I started at UNC Chapel Hill and down the street from you at Duke actually lived in downtown Durham And then I went to work at UNC Charlotte before coming to Vassar and now here at Bowdoin Excellent and as a vice president and CIO can you describe it a little bit of your your duties and daily Interactions are and what involvements you have in decision-making and and and whatever it is that that job entitles Sure So in our structure my title means that I am the senior officer as a language that we use our report to the president And I'm responsible for all of the information services across the institution So many of the things people traditionally think of as IT the the network and the servers and systems But also how IT serves the larger institutional mission. So you know everything from Security cameras and partnership with our security office To on the academic side both the learning management system But as an example as we're preparing for the fall and we're still working to announcing what our model would be in response to All of the work around COVID I've been deeply involved in the decision-making on how do we explore options for contact tracing to Supporting faculty as we teach us at least a a third of our curriculum will have to be taught online Which is completely new for us as a as a liberal arts institution and helping us create that distinction between the emergency version we did in the spring and You know truly building intentionally designed online courses my team and I are deeply involved in all of that So I imagine you must be pretty busy A little bit of that yes It's been it's been a lot of fun It was funny because I said that the spring pieces the emergency version was who was a lot of activity But I thought I think for a lot of us in IT It's it's it kind of leaned into the firefighting side that a lot of us have you know Kind of have innately just because it's it's really rewarding to get that instant gratification of solving a problem really quickly But the work for the fall and looking ahead is much more complicated and thankfully for me It's a kind of thing. I really enjoy it just it tends to be a lot more stressful. I think good. It feels like the stakes are higher It makes sense to me. So how do you and I know each other? So we first met I think because you sent me an email actually yeah, that's how we first got in contact you'd seen an Advertisement for a webinar. I'm sorry a panel conversation that I was putting together and had introduced yourself And just we had a quick conversation I asked you if you'd be willing to join the panel and we had a really I thought a really wonderful Conversation around issues of earth the equity inclusion In one of the organizations that I'm part of and then recently we did it again with a different organization in a conversation last week So I have yet to meet you in person But I've been really grateful to be able to learn from your experiences and tap into your expertise and compare notes I appreciate that very much But so at the email I sent it I send that to nerf comp or did I send that to edge of cause? I'm trying to I don't know if I don't remember that too. Yeah And nerf comp and edge of cause are two separate things or is nerf comp a layer under edge of cause They are separate. So edge of cause is the national organization Historically, there have been our regional organizations as well and Nerf comp was one of the largest just because the Northeast has so many institutions of higher education here And over the years many of the regionals aren't quite as active anymore But nerf comp has the capacity to do some really interesting work So I've had the good fortune of serving on nerf comp for it for the last five years And there was a project that we were working on that's where I think that was the announcement that you first saw It was nerf comp offering and then what we did last week for what's for the consortium of liberal arts colleges? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for that. So let me ask you. So you started in IT almost 20 years ago Can you talk about your journey? And and what I'm asking is is have you always felt supported? Did you experience any discrimination or racism as you moved your journey through IT to where you are now? So I'll give you the short answers first Have I always felt supported? No. Have I experienced issues of racism racism and discrimination? Yes Haven't always been overt, you know, thankfully there hasn't been that many of them that have been as Directly challenging though. I've had a few It sometimes they're super subtle, you know, I had a I was a IT director at this point and because of where I was working I had one of the master keys for the building that my college was part of So this was the university system. So there were seven colleges that make up the university We had just built a new building. It was a beautiful Beautiful facility We were just in I think maybe two years in and because I had a master key We had one of the adjunct faculty members had gotten locked out and she found one of the students who work on my team And he found me because he knew I could help we got her in a couple weeks later It happened again and she went and found the students to ask for the help and she asked for me as the janitor And I was wearing a suit and tie at the time She met me but the context clues about how I was dressed just didn't seem to be reconciled with the fact that I look like I do and the fact that I had a master key So sometimes it's things like that, you know, and the student that she asked happened to also be a black student And he and I had some really interesting conversations about it He laughed first. He's like I can't figure out how she could possibly think you're the janitor But then as we talked about how those impressions start to show up in some really destructive ways as well in searches that I've been part of Sometimes when I'm a candidate or when I'm on a search committee and we're reviewing candidates I had a really we I was on a search once we were looking at a group of in of candidates who come to campus of the group only one was a Happen to be an African-American woman and the feedback we got from the faculty about her was well We're not sure she's ready for promotion. They kept saying she presented herself really well But we're not sure she ready for promotion Yet she already had the position at her institution, so it would be a lateral for her The other candidate who actually this would have been a promotion for No one said anything like that about And it with the way the feedback came in we could tell the feedback was from the same individual So it was really stunning to see the contradiction So knowing that things like that are at play and in that particular case I was grateful because the committee was responsive to That's a couple of us and I was one of those leading voices bringing in conversations about internal excuse me about about bias and how it manifests in searches and really for putting in a framework so that we could be more much more intentional about how we would address issues like that so in that case we Chose to exclude all of the faculty feedback we received because it was so clearly laced with bias And it was a difficult decision for many of my faculty colleagues on the committee But I was really proud that we could get to that point to just embrace the fact that there's these the feedback was problematic So we therefore could not use it in our decision-making So I've had number of experiences like that. Yeah, so I have a two-part question one You may not answer to one you may not among clack. How many black or brown CIOs are there? That one I know the answer to so I'll answer it two ways though because last week clack for the I think only the second or third time in their history voted to expand the membership. So clack now is 75 institutions Of those institutions if my math is correct Six of us are people of color Three are black To our Indian background and one gentleman is Hispanic And so those numbers I mean they're it's that's six out of 75 is one thing But before the vote to expand we were 70 and there were I was the only black CIO Long story that had just shifted the week a couple weeks before And there was one Hispanic CIO and two gentlemen who are Indian So the numbers are really really low for that that group and it has been something and you know I joined when I came to Vassar in 2013 so for the last seven years. I've been part of conversations about How do we at least get better at it? Acknowledging and addressing the issues that are clearly at play because I've told them multiple times the first time I walked into one of the clack conferences I looked around and said wow, this is the widest space. I have ever been in in a really long time, right? There's a couple hundred people in the room and like I said There's only handful of people who looked who are brown at all or people of color at all And only one or two at the other time at that time sorry who looked anything like do you know that information for the less That's liberal arts for more generic And I don't want to say generic for colleges like private colleges Public colleges, you know that do not fall under the umbrella of clack, you know How many CIOs or black or brown or female or whatever? Yeah, it's a great question that the data at the last More reliable information I had is a couple years old and at that time There is a there was a group that's no longer operate. They've been folded on their education So some of the data will be updated through them And our data single digits it was 4% then went down to 3% and then went back up to 4% there were African American of higher education CIOs who responded to that particular surveys But it's a survey right so that the one thing I was not able to dig in with them is how much Representation were there from HBC use in the survey itself in the instrument itself? So call that I believe it's a hundred HBC use in the country And one really interesting point for me as I talk with community actually we probably should be explicit Historically black colleges and universities are what the acronym stands for But as I've talked to colleagues who don't necessarily have a background of knowing about HBC use Those four institutions have never been segregated You know and I find that just stunning to just as a factual Acknowledgement that at the time that this that our country has wrestled with issues of race and inclusion The one group that many have sometimes challenged and said well, why do these exist in the first place? They themselves have never segregated. They've always welcome students of different backgrounds And so that shows up in one place that's really interesting for me when I look at the people who hold the CIO seats across HBC use you can find much more diversity often among those groups Then you'll find in other places and I think that's a wonderful thing But the drawback has been that has also decreased the total number of black CIOs that are in higher education Because the institutions that those were the places that it would have happened more regularly are now being more inclusive At the same time that the rest of the community is not doing the same thing So let me ask you a question about diversity and inclusion so as of late many organizations have rushed to create DEI positions and and And and and and team leads and things of that nature But even with your school and anyone else you may know Do you do you see that these people who are DEIs or diversity inclusion officers? Do you see them having the power to actually bring Equality to their institutions and to their organizations Yeah, I It depends on how they were brought in why they were brought in and what they are positioned to do And in my experience Some of the I was at an institution that wrestled with whether to create a vice president for diversity inclusion position Ultimately decided not to do it. I can come back to that in a minute. I think it was the I think that that choice was short-sighted But bringing someone in the argument that was made against it was That others might think now that we have someone here I can wash my hands of it I'm not part of the solution anymore, right? But the The alternatives doesn't actually force everybody. They actually part of it either, right? So it it's not just about creating the position It's also, you know, are you really committed to doing the actual work? And we've been I've been really fortunate I started here literally on the same day as our vice president for diversity inclusion Michael Reed is the same and I have been really impressed with watching him work because his focus is leaving by influence I don't know if he's actually use of that language, but that's what I've observed over the last two years And there's in fact, I'll make a comparison to my own role I have often watched and it's really tempting once you have a position of authority with some authority to it It's often tempting to lean on that authority to make people do things because you know your position You have the position authority to make it happen. That tends to be far less effective over time Right. So the people who are really effective don't lead with that And you that becomes your option of last resort that you're much more about building coalitions and Partnering with people and contributing your own resources doing things that you can to help bring people to A shared understanding of where you're trying to go I find that really effective chief diversity officers are doing that all the time So no matter what power they may have positionally It's still all about influence because at the end of the day I think it's about making the case for diversity first really helping people understand What is it we can get out of this right so that it's not it is the right thing to do I'm not disagree disagreeing with that at all, but I think if that's your only argument That's a really steep hill to the climb versus if we have a shared understanding This is beneficial to us as an institution Then with something that we can all lean into to start moving in that direction Sorry long answer to your question, but that's kind of how I've come to think about it. That's perfect It's perfect answer. I'm going to ask you a question about me and I want you to give me your opinion So I grew up in a little town in South Carolina called wall tomorrow And My mother my my mother was my paternal aunt. She was my father's older sister and she raised me She only had a fourth grade education. And so she was a domestic And she and I but have these Uncomfortable conversations for me because she would just say get a good education and get out of South Carolina That's all she ever said to me, you know, she wasn't particularly affectionate or loving But she was always on that tangent get out um, and so um, I had gotten a scholarship and I was Walked my first day I was walking onto the campus and they were these kiosk and there was a white gentleman there and his exact words were We are trying to bring bring Negroes into computers. This was in the mid to late 70s um, at first I didn't know what a computer was And then I had heard the other n-word never Negroes, but the other n-words struggling with what that meant And uh, at first I was going to just keep on my past path But then he said we'll pay you 30 000 dollars immediately and for someone who grew up poor I thought Yeah, absolutely. I'd won the lottery and since then probably 25 or so years of my experience has been in The private sector and at late it's been in the public sector working in higher education or elementary education um, I didn't get my first college degree until I was 45 And I got two I graduated the top of my class Summa cum laude And then I got my master's I got an executive master in public administration and back back to my undergrad My undergraduate degrees are in psychology and literature And uh, my doctorate is in higher education administration um And my current employer And with my current employer and with all the other things that I do I am well known I'm often called to speak on diversity advocacy for black and brown men and women and to share my thoughts about emerging technologies for those communities Why is it and let me just say one more thing. I am not The easiest person to to get along with because I don't take a lot of Crap if you will, you know, I'm not going to let you bully me or push me around So I think I've gotten your stereotype attached to me that I am an angry black woman But why do you think it is that the highest I've ever rose with a director of IT? And that I would that I probably will never be a cio in my lifetime Yeah, so it's uh I'll so let me start with this The I think this is true for anyone For all of us, right? But there's a fair fair degree of preparation which you clearly have right far more than I do right my my highest degrees in MBA, right? But there's also opportunity preparation opportunity good luck And mentorship Right having someone who's mentoring or advocating on your behalf when those opportunities turn up And I think that that combination getting that right combination And that's where the good luck pieces fits in right because there's a bunch of this We don't actually control and anyone who has the arrogance to say I constructed my career and this is exactly it's all about me And I I got everything I wanted I think back to president obama one of the last commencement speeches He gave in his last couple years of president presidency He talked about look, you know, I think he was talking to a graduate a bunch of graduates And he said look around and just I want you to acknowledge the good fortune that played up heart in you being here Yes, you were smart. Yes, you were accomplished. Yes, you worked hard But I don't want you to have the arrogance to think that anyone who didn't get here Is less than you are right that there was a Significant amount of luck that played into you being here and and he said this for himself as well And there was a whole bunch of consternation about that at the time But I I definitely count that for myself because I My undergraduate experiences. I have a degree in zoology I did I did two years of medical school and I failed out of medical school It's the first time I'm saying this on a venue that's public. It's not a secret I mean I talk about it because it's you know, 20 years ago now But losing my life's dream at that time and then trying to figure out what I was going to do instead Was a really difficult Multi-year experience. I'd always had an interest in computers. I was a computer science minor my first year Just there's a whole bunch of things that I was able to lean on But then I had really good Opportunities and some people who cared about my career and the success of my career that I had nothing to do with This was all about them deciding they wanted to invest in me and what I tried to do in response is to do the same for them um And just because I know that I think about those Those pieces when I'm having conversations with colleagues who I'm just getting to know I can only imagine all of the different ways especially because you came up in this much earlier I did at a time that people could be much more overt and get away with it, right? People have to get really creative now, which they still do mind you and I could still talk about Um, but it just requires a lot more and the fact that I came in at a different time I think allowed me to approach this in a way that was I didn't have to have the same Guards around me protections around me that I'm sure you had to just to navigate the spaces you were in Right, I've had the good fortune and it and I'll add to this the fact that I failed at a medicine medical school Before I began my it career also did something for me that I didn't it took me years to grasp I didn't fear losing my job Right, so I would walk in the conversations when things got sticky. I was fine. Just you know, and I wouldn't necessarily Um, I wasn't always the most vocal person in the in the conversation because I didn't feel I always had to be But I was much more comfortable working behind the scenes and and building relationships and trying to advocate for the direction That I needed to go and a couple times where it was clear that wasn't going to happen anymore I decided okay. It's time for me to leave and I've left More than once I've left roles because I knew that the dynamic was going in a place That was not going to match with my ethical code and my own values, right? So that's the most I can contribute to it because I I think that if If this is about um, how far do we progress all of those pieces are at play at any given time And I think unfortunately for people of color broadly for african-american specifically for african-american women Right these pieces get harder and harder and harder I still have the advantages of being male, right that I walk into a conversation with a search committee And my you know me being aggressive is perceived as as a leadership quality Right whereas for so many women you being the same person is perceived as oh She just too pushy and all these other negative attributes that come from it And maybe they don't say it out loud anymore But they're subtly influencing how they make decisions and promotions because yeah, you know She just doesn't quite resonate with me the same way You know and which is where my work on bias is like, okay I need you to I need you to make the effort of telling me what you need Because a generalized statement like that could represent too many things that could be taken for granted and pushing ourselves for that Again, I'm giving you a long answer, but that's those are kind of things I think of yeah, and I appreciate that very much and I I agree with you whole heartedly luck has to play a Part because I think if you as you mentioned president Obama, who would have guessed A senator from Chicago would have given a speech at a democratic convention Uh event would become the president I mean because you know, we've had a couple other people try to become president and think desi jackson had tried I don't remember who the other black person was but there was one other person I tried and failed and probably because they were also Labeled if you will as something another and to see president obama become president obama Was almost life changing for me. I I mean, you know, I I cried. I I prayed I was just so grateful But I also prayed that he did not get assassinated because I was oh all the way through his candidacy all the way through Yeah, you know, that was my other prayer was you know, he was this really elegant well spoken um, just just very dignified black man And probably there was a good portion of american society did not want to see a black man have that much power So my prayer was always for him to survive and get to to to to be a successful president as he has been so and and and so to follow that My when I told you about myself, you know, I I could tell you stories It would probably make your hair stand up on your head, even though you don't have any hair up there But uh I have learned To let it roll off my back If I don't get a job, I'm not going to be upset about that. You know, if I apply and I don't get a call back I'm not going to be upset about that because like you said I'm almost at the point that I'm not afraid to be fired or to be let go because you know I've I've been in this game for a long time And I have a couple of mentors both white males and they are nice, but I have I can say specifically one of them who has a really high power at my university has never said you should hire rachel um, or Of course, I've been trying to teach for years. Uh, it looks like gender poverty and race through the lens of current and emerging technologies I've been trying to teach this course for at least five years at my institution at my where I went to school and Got no bites at it. And you know, I don't want to be a tenured track faculty I want to be an adjunct or a pop, you know, you know pop professor Yeah, you know what I mean, um, so I find it difficult and my question to you is is that so how do we change this for the rachel steller behind me? Because my career is literally done I've only got a few more years to to be what I want what I am now and I hope to retire as a professor But but but but more specifically, what do we do for there were shells that are coming behind me? Yeah, I think that the piece for me mentorship and advocacy there's a term for it that I'm forgetting I think people call it champion right someone who's who is behind the scenes championing your cause right and and um That people Sometimes conflate the two together and I don't think they necessarily have to be And I have watched a lot of people who are really great mentors But then they don't champion on behalf of the people who they've got If those relationships with right and and so that only does so much for them Whereas someone who's also willing to champion and perhaps all they they can do they don't have the The capacity to take you on as a mentor to have you have you Have that kind of relationship with them, but they are willing to You know behind the scenes suggest. Hey, I think you should apply for this or I'm in the process for this Can you send me your information because I want to make sure you get into the pool as well That piece has to happen as well And and that needs to be broader than just black people doing for black people right because that that's long been part of it And I'm still a big big believer in it and I'm part of some organizations that that's part of their mission But I think that the needle really starts to move especially because the percentages the numbers of us are so low We also need to have others who are willing to do that and be part of that conversation Right and and there's going to be a lot of blowback on that It already happens in a number of places But that to me is the way that this starts to change And so I've been grateful to be able to do that the times I've had opportunities to but it is also part of the conversation I think we need to be make sure we are being intentional about having with everyone If you really want to move the needle on this and you want to constructively contribute to it Every time you're involved in a search or a hiring process make sure you advocate to have a diverse pool every single time Right, even if it's a consultant that you're bringing in and you already know someone If if that person is not a diverse candidate go find another candidate That is to make sure that you are considering that and you're challenging yourself and challenging the process all the way along That is the decision that we all can make and not everybody does Absolutely that that's absolutely perfect and and and I will just say you know, I am proud to know you And uh, I've been following up, you know, I google your name and look at some of the work you've done And it's been outstanding, you know, and um You know, um, one of my students, uh, one of one of the students in the law school We have something called balsa black locks black law student association And one of my uh balsa students said to me he said, uh Skinfolk aren't always kinfolk For a minute I had to think okay, what does this mean, you know, but you know after I started thinking about it You know, I started recognizing that you know, although we may be black We're not always each other's best advocate, you know, we're not always the best to compliment or acknowledge Uh greatness and and people that look like us because we're afraid that if we Give too much Acknowledgement of another person we're taking some from ourselves Whereas our white counterparts don't have that issue because if they get fired They get promoted if they get a raise whatever it is There's no concern that their skin in the game is going to cost them You know any harm or cost them uh their ability to advocate Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I So I definitely see your point for me. It's been I think our the stakes for us are higher I do think that there is a lot of my uh, my non-black colleagues my you know, my white colleagues Who also don't advocate for others? Um, but I don't think they worry about if I make this recommendation Of a person of color of a black candidate and things don't work out That people are going to look at me and look at the next black candidate differently Uh, and that's a layer to it that um, I think we have absorbed over time That's really getting in in the way of some of this work happening Right, so if if I think someone's not ready Then how about I give them the feedback on where I think they've got opportunities to grow? To grow and some suggestions on ways that could happen Perhaps I can contribute to helping that happen as opposed to not putting them forward because I don't think they're ready And they're not telling them the feedback as to why right that's a that's a very different set of choices That's exactly right. I gave a talk a couple years ago about search committees. So if you're hiring a president or some high level officer Your search team should include the lowest person in that organization and I'm not talking about like, um A janitor but like maybe the newest person in it or the newest person in administration And it should be a a set of Of every aspect of your organization So if you're going to hire a cio for example, you hire the least trained it person You you you put the least trained it person on that search committee You put someone over and finance an administration on that committee You put someone that's uh athletics on that committee because if this person is going to have to interact with all these people These diverse voices will get you more likely the best Candidate because that least person is going to ask a question that you and I probably will never think to ask right I think about yeah, but they haven't been there in such a long time It doesn't cross our mind But if you have that person who's brand new to the industry he or she may have a perspective that we may not have and um The other part of that is you know You're probably a little younger than I am but uh, there used to be something called the old boys network, right? Oh, absolutely. Today we call it homo social reproduction. We prefer to be like us You know and so in a lot of ways for people like you and yourself in your position in your advocacy and the work that you do You are able to be A voice you can speak and you don't worry about whether your voice is going to cause you any harm I you lose your job you're written up whatever it is your voice is powerful And what you've done for the entire university and other places you've worked speaks for itself So if you were to recommend that you hire Joe who just got his Microsoft certification You don't have to worry about it if Joe turns out that he's not going to come to work on time or he's You know harassing someone that's not something you have to worry about because you have a track record of of doing very great things so You know thinking Go ahead. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt Rochelle. It's just you make a point that I want to circle back on um, because I I had an experience at an institution where it was made blatantly clear to me that that was not the case that despite my role Um, despite the fact that I was hired into the role that I was to do the type of work that I was doing um, I had a couple of uh one department in specific But it was other places was happening as well That continued to make it clear that they trusted the judgment of other people more than mine People who had no experience in the in the in the field, right that it just kept coming up And it got to the extreme case in a search process That they disagree with and mind you this i'm on the search committee, right? So three people on the search committee We've done the interviews they talked to other people as well And when it came time to decide who was going to go to the final round I said look I have concerns about this one candidate for these reasons Because I don't think they met the pieces we're looking for but I appreciate I have one voice of three The other person on the committee agreed with me the department was so upset with me not their colleague That they went to the dean to override my decision Right, right? And so I got dragged into a meeting with the entire department small institution So it's neil call it eight nine people around the room and they spent the first half hour of the conversation berating me Michael said so and so I don't know how he can think that so and so is true not not not speaking on behalf of the candidate That they really wanted to bring in but berating me Right and the entire room was white except for me, right You know and I sat there in total awe That one that this would be that they would be so clueless as to how I would receive this And one of the reasons that I later left that institution as my colleague also didn't appreciate But what that does to me that you let the conversation happen So in the end deciding that yes, I'm not going to override michael's decision. That's trivial You actually let you I had to sit through this Right, which is which is I mean what message do you think it tells me about I actually have the role None of you are cio's none of you have actually hired technical teams, which is what we were hiring for I'm on the committee to contribute my expertise and Instead of saying well, we feel strongly about the candidate and advocating for the candidate you belittle me Yeah, right. So those those those things still happen and they and so it's not that I don't want to give anyone the impression that I don't think it can happen to me anymore that it doesn't happen to anyone else I don't think that's true And I think that's been one of the great frustrations That for me is coming out in the black lives matter movement and a lot of the conversations We're having now is that people are getting a chance to just be clear Just understand no matter the role we're in no matter how much success we've accomplished no matter what Experiences and accolades we have no matter how much we make no matter title any of that doesn't matter To certain people to certain large segments of people unfortunately The starting point is still you were a black woman. You were a black man. You were a black professional And the black part comes first to the negative Right and so my You know my administrative assistant my Research assistant you name it someone to the side. It was an ancillary role in this Their voice is equal to yours in my mind, right? right absolutely and you know In jobs I've had I've been called names the name I hear most often is that I'm passive aggressive And for a long time I thought I knew what that meant But then I had to go to the Oxford dictionary look up what passive aggressive meant and then I said, okay This is not who I am but I do understand why I'm being called this name, you know, and so I think that For me Every time we're on a panel together every time we're talking I see such beautiful beautiful professionalism to no bias No, no, no, no already pre-thought concept of how this should go or not But really a very thoughtful panel and very thoughtful questions and agendas And I think that speaks to your character immensely And so if someone else doesn't recognize that count that they're problem and not yours I appreciate that rachel, you know My every experience with you has been absolutely exceptional So let's talk. We only got about seven minutes. So let's talk a little bit about eight minutes and 46 seconds Um, have you seen the video? I you mean the the Dave Chappelle show. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. Yeah, sorry. I'm so sorry. Yes You were talking directly. Yes. I did see the video when it first started. Yes. Yes. Um, yes Um, and I haven't been able to watch it again But I felt important to watch it the first time. Yeah And what did you think about that? What were the thoughts that came to your mind? Did it raise any Fears for your own safety for people your family your friends. Uh, did it raise any kind of consternation for you I have a four-year-old son Yeah, so my first thought went to him. Yeah Right. My my four-year-old son is biracial, but we've been really clear with him The world is going to perceive you as black. You are black. I think you are you you you your mom's family My family you are all of those things, but we don't want there to be any confusion, right? You that is something for you to be proud of and you you are you are black You were Jamaican you were all these pieces make up who you are right and that was the first thing that I thought of Yeah, so it was a mix of of frustration and anger That the casualness Of all of the officers, but especially the one who was you know, who's kneeling on him in the moment You know even as people are advocating to them you were literally telling them you were killing him And they just stood there that that part the The first time I saw the the the phrase black lives matter Um, some of our students had put them up around my institution had put the signs up But I'd never I didn't hear I didn't this was in the early days I think they had just found it on the web And they put the signs up and I started crying the first time I saw the sign because I I had this dual response Of proud of them that they were willing to say clearly my life matters, right? And so angry that they have to say that yes Right, right that that it can't be assumed that my life matters like everyone else's does Yeah, and I kept thinking about that as I watched that video the first time because you know This is what we've been talking about Frankly my entire life and longer right that this is the same message So in some ways I'm grateful that a lot of people are kind of coming to that realization now that oh, wow This really is messed up like there really is something here I'm grateful and I'm frustrated that it took How many videos did it take right? But it felt like this one was just the right combination of of circumstances and perhaps the lockdown I don't know it but I'm grateful and frustrated again that We've been talking about police misconduct my literally my entire life. Like I I grew up in New York City. I'm brooklyn in the 90s right that's in the early in the late 80s We were talking about that then right and we were having those experiences that Literally every black male I knew in my college experience was the exception of perhaps one person When I would you know, we would actually talk about this only one guy would ever say yeah I've just never had that happen. Yeah, everybody else had their own story. Yeah, absolutely And you know, I think going back to 16 19 um, we went from a noose a whip assassinations to outright murder Someone said to me in one of these chats Someone has had their knee on my neck my entire life. This is figuratively not literally and that You know, the clan has moved from hoods to suits, you know, so they're they're still there Don't get the idea that this is a equal society and you can see that and those that lead our country Who like to instigate things and call names and I think any leader I don't care what you lead a band. Whether you lead the uh They march across the street to get something to eat or whatever If you're calling people names that does not speak well to your intelligence Because even if you think those things you can keep them to yourself Maybe share them with your family, but you don't in a public space say This person is nothing or he's not smart or whatever I just think that's such poor leadership to to call names to people And not understanding. So let me ask you this part of the eight minutes and 46 seconds. Have you ever Been in harm's way. Have you ever had an encounter with law enforcement? Or a white person where you thought that you may be harmed or you were unsafe Yeah, I've been pulled over by the police. Um Because I looked at a cop as I drove past him on the highway And and so he found the excuse to pull me over and You know, um, you know, they want to search your trunk That's like there was and so every time I had to make the call of do I allow it to happen when I know You don't actually have a right to and they frame it as a question and Yeah, you know and the guns are always there, right and then and they unclip it when they're having a conversation with you and it's like Right. Yeah. Well, you know, you stopped me for speeding. Why is it you're reaching for your weapon? Yeah, right. Um Yeah, one of my one of my college friends we were He got arrested. He now has a record actually, um from in college Because we got pulled over for speeding and he and I were in the back seat Right and but because he woke up He's one of those people who wakes up slowly and he didn't answer the cop when he asked him what his name was He got arrested for it And they charged him with obstruction of justice Wow, because he was in the back seat That was of a car that was stopped for speeding. No drugs. No anything like just because he did not answer the question Yeah, yeah, and if he resisted when they were arresting him. Yeah, he would have been in that same situation you know and yeah, so it's it's But the threat of violence has long been there um I did a ride along when graduate school I chose to do a ride along with it. I was doing a public health class Um, and I realized I had never had a conversation with a cop that didn't start with Let me see your license or registration So I decided I want to do a ride along with them And I have long tried to To think about, you know, well if I thought if I saw the world throughout there, right? So I have a working theory at this point that part of the challenge has been the um the fear illogical or not but the fear of black faces and black skin and black men especially But this is clear it happens for black women as well Right and there there is this level of fear that is so often there That when they're now in law enforcement when someone is in a position of law enforcement And they have the charge behind them and the weight of the state behind them and a weapon at their hip Acting on that fear becomes a lot easier to do And then the system has repeatedly said that a cop who rightly they fear for their life That's a reason enough to take someone else's life and the juries like yeah It actually makes sense for me to be afraid of tamir rice was one of the ones that I found so frustrating Yes, it was literally a child literally a child Yeah, and the cop too was to kill him and the jury and the da's are like Yeah, that actually makes sense that you'd be afraid because and they kept emphasizing how big he was Right, that's like that's always the case. So it's all about the fear This the fear makes sense because this was a big black man. I'm five seven I routinely get confused in in the higher ed it space for my colleagues who are much bigger black men Right because all people see is my skin Right So repeatedly been for these guys are six two six three or more and I'm repeatedly confused for them I'm always like I don't understand how you could possibly think I look like them Yeah, okay, just for hide alone. Yeah, you know A lot of our our leadership in in higher education have now Been awoken if you can say that awakened if you can say that I don't know if that's absolutely true or not But there's been tons of speeches by the presidents and the provost and the deans and directors and all those things have all come out and given statements about What is happening about the the place where our our country is and every time I hear one or read one I shake my head because it seems like almost every single time they miss the mark We're gonna do something about this. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna make it, you know We're gonna make do our best effort to beat back systemic racism or whatever it is And the simplest thing for them to do Is to hire to promote to pay to include Not speeches not task force But to actually do something, you know, so you know in my in my office my my part of my job Um, I said they're probably less than 10 black professors out of Maybe 70 80 90. I don't know what the number is but but but but a lot and and so few And you know when when someone says well, we're going to do something about it What are you going to do? Are you just going to say, you know, here's our policy We're going to form a task force and we're going to talk about this and this you have similar similar thoughts about that So I do and that's one of the reasons I'm grateful to be where I am right We have actually done a lot more on the on hiring on the faculty side Um, you know, like I said, I myself and Michael Reed both started at the same time for the though the institutions At least to the best of my knowledge in the 250 years history. We are the first black senior officers And now there's two of us out of nine Right and my role has nothing to do with diversity inclusion, right? So this is this is other than I contribute to it because it's important to me And in the organization, right, but I'm saying that my role doesn't carry that responsibility explicitly and I think those are the kind of choices that will actually move the needle Mind you, we still have a lot of pieces that we still need to do and And I'm grateful that the activity is happening, but I agree with you just talking about it And and even the question of it feels like having a chief diversity officer Is at least a starting point and if you're not willing to do that, then I question pretty much everything else Right because someone needs to to help lead the conversation about how do we how do we clarify why this is important? And then do the work of moving it and not having someone who can serve with that focal point that that That to provide that expertise is just going to make it so much harder for people to do it because It continues to be well, we don't have them in the pool in the first place Well, what did you do with your in creating your pool and creating your candidates and your your job description? And are you partnering with those associations that already exist? Right that that you can tap and tap into for accountants and attorneys and whatever those plate those those positions that you're hiring for But without that expertise that makes it much harder to do Absolutely Well, we have two minutes. I'm leaving it to you to say whatever you wish to say I will say this once the video is converted. I will send you a link to it You can watch it and tell me whether I can upload it or not. Okay, sure. I appreciate that Rochelle And I just want to say thank you I have learned a lot from you and there's a couple months that we've had some exchanges And I'm really really grateful that you're willing to lend your voices to the work that I have done here And I'm happy to be able to take part in the work that you're doing there as well I look forward to continue continue our partnership moving forward Absolutely, and I I just all you if you're going to do a discussion a webinar or something and you need Another voice count me in just you don't even have to worry about it I know Rochelle's going to be there and I will be there, you know, and I really appreciate your career What you're doing and it is such a Wonderful pleasure I'm not Christian, but I have a spiritual I believe that God puts people in your place for a reason I think you and I coming together is one of those examples of God's hands. So Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you and stay safe and stay in touch. Don't forget about me We'll do same to you. Take care. Thank you. Thank you so much, Michael