 All right, welcome to this series, Headline Makers, where we bring stories from the newsrooms and the people behind those newsrooms who are working day in and day out to make those newsrooms the biggest newsrooms that we have. And today we have Ms. Shireen Ban. She is the managing editor of CNBC TV 18, who is our headline maker on this episode. Thank you, Shireen, for joining us. Well, Rayil, thank you very much and welcome to the brand new CNBC office here. It's great to have you join us. We literally have opened four business in this new facility like a few days ago. So it's great to have you visit us here. Absolutely. And also the role reversal. I'm so excited about this, you know, asking questions to someone who asks questions daily. I still prefer asking the questions as opposed to answering them, but I'll try and do my best. Thank you so much. So let me, you know, so we profile the journeys, you know, it's not just that what we see on screen. There's a whole story behind it. And if I talk about your two decade plus career in TV, how has the journey panned out for you from a producer to an anchor to now the face of the channel? Well, you know, the journey has been very fulfilling, very interesting. It's been a great experience to really watch the country change, the landscape that the media operates in change, the opportunities that have opened up. It's to be able to chronicle all of that has really been interesting and satisfying. You know, when I started in 2000, and this is right after I finished my masters and it was while I was doing my masters that I decided to get into broadcast journalism. I was doing a program that Siddharth Vasu was producing and Vir Sangh, he was anchoring and my job was really to come out there and rally the audience. It was a current affairs program which had a live audience. And so I had to sort of get the audience up to speed about this is what we're debating and these are the pros and cons and so on and so forth. And I really enjoyed that process. And when they saw me do that, Vir and Siddharth said that look, have you considered broadcast journalism? If you haven't, we think that you have a flair for news. You have a sense and smell for the news. And that really was the start of the love affair with broadcast journalism with the news media and I haven't looked back since then. So much has changed, some for the good, some not for the good. You know, when we started at CNBC TV18, we didn't have OB vans. You were literally pushing tape, you know, from Pure to VSNL and so on and so forth. And today, you know, you're being able to broadcast using your mobile phones anywhere in the world. So from a technology point of view, from a distribution point of view, so much has changed. But, you know, and you said that I'm today the face of the channel and that's only because, you know, I'm one of the faces. I don't believe I am the face. I'm one of the faces of the channel. I am perhaps one of the oldest faces of the channel because I've been here for 20 plus years. But what's been interesting is also the fact that I multitasked my way through this journey. So I didn't start out only as an anchor and I haven't been just an anchor. I've produced, I've written, I continue to produce and write my own shows. I continue to work with reporters on their stories. I continue to work on my own stories. So it's really been an exercise in versatility. And I think that that has also helped me become a much more consummate television news professional today. Absolutely. And, you know, 20 plus years of TV career in TV career and then day in and day out staying on top of the kind of, you know, markets that you cover the stories that you bring out. Is it how do you manage to stay on top of, you know, this genre even after so many years? I mean, day in and day out, don't you get tired of doing it every day? I mean, how what motivates you to do that? You know, what motivates me is the fact that we don't take our leadership for granted. And I truly believe that because we enjoy an over 95% share of the market, it is incumbent on us to keep disrupting ourselves. So we're not waiting for somebody else to do something new or somebody else to go out there and innovate. I truly believe that it is our role and our responsibility to keep ourselves relevant to the audience that we're beaming out to. So what does that mean? That means looking at new spaces, looking at improving spaces where we already exist in. It's looking at creating new communities around content because I truly believe that that is one of the core areas that we must focus on. It's about looking at how do we get the audience to view business news differently from the time that I started at CNBC TV 18. People viewed CNBC TV 18, I would say for the first 10, 15 years of our journey only as a stock market channel. Today, we are much more than that. Today, we are a channel that provides you actionable, credible information that you can use to make smart life choices, smart life decisions, whether it's education, whether it's healthcare, whether it's insurance, stock markets, of course, but that's just one aspect of what we do. Of course, it is core to what we do, but we are so much more than that. We're about corporate India, we're about business, we're about balance sheets, we're about aspiration, we're about entrepreneurship. I think the way that we've also expanded the business news genre and I think that because we were the leaders, it was incumbent on us to be able to do that. A lot of people have now followed suit and are looking at business news differently. My challenge to myself is how do I walk into this newsroom every day and get my team to feel excited about what they're doing and get my team to think about new ways of doing things. I've always been a believer in excellence, but the road to excellence doesn't happen by excellence. The road to excellence is built on daily improvement and that is what drives us in the newsroom. Can we do something different, something better, something new every day and that keeps me motivated and I am fortunate to be passionate about what I do and very often in life, if you get the opportunity to marry your purpose, for me, the purpose that I've had is storytelling and marry that with my passion. I'm fortunate to be able to do that and so today, yes, of course, you get frustrated and yes, you feel tired and yes, you get weighed down by the chaos of it all, but the goal is very clear that we want to be a purposeful brand, we want to be a purpose driven brand, we want to continue to be relevant to the audience that we reach out to and that's what motivates us and keeps me going. Absolutely, you know, also you're not just the face of the channel, I mean, of course there are many, but you're not just the face of the channel, but there's also a bigger complex role of leadership, you know, you have to also manage teams. So between news TV, which is so hectic and managing people, how do you really balance things out? You know, you have to understand that this is a people business, right, so that's your core asset. I mean, the equipment and the stuff is on top of that, but at the end of the day, if you don't have reporters breaking stories, if you don't have producers being able to write good scripts, you're not going to be left with very much. So you have to acknowledge the fact that this is a people centric business. Now as leaders, we have to ensure that you have a motivated team. We have to ensure that you create an organization that listens. You have to ensure that you create an organization that takes feedback and acts on it. You have to ensure that you create a newsroom that is accessible, that's open, that gives space for people to voice and air their opinions. I feel particularly proud of the fact that we've been able to create an organization that is not hierarchical. Many of our star performers today who have really jumped in their careers have done so in the last few years. They may have started off a year ago and today you see them anchoring shows, you see them doing events, see them doing special programming and so on and so forth, because I truly believe that you have to create space and a culture that is merit-based. If you allow meritocracy to flourish, you will be able to get the best ideas as opposed to focusing only on this is the organization structure and this is how it needs to work. I have always believed that structure cannot define function. Function must define structure and so that has always driven me to place who I believe are the best people for that particular job, irrespective of whether they've been in the organization for five years or 10 years. I think you have to look and place people based on the skills that they have and what is the function that they need to deliver on. I think that's really the challenge as far as leaders are concerned. How do you remain agile? How do you remain dynamic? The world is changing not every day, every minute, every second. How do you ensure that you're on top of that? How do you stay nimble? How do you also stay humble as leaders? I think you sometimes tend to believe in your own myths and I've been very clear about the fact that I'm not in love with my own voice and I'm not in love with the fact that I want to be seen on every show and so on and so forth. So you have to create space that is accessible to people within your team. So people feel they are equal custodians of the brand and that really drives me. Creating this equal opportunity workspace, creating a sense of being custodians of this brand. I think that has been one of the big leadership challenges for me that I've sort of embraced and taken forward. Wonderful. I think that's a great space to come from in the sense of the way you handle things and you don't want to be the person in charge of everything. You have to empower people. You have to empower people. You have to allow people to make decisions. Some decisions may not go as per expectation but that's fine. And your job as the leader is not to then come out and say, oh, look, I told you so. Your job is to say, what can we learn from this? How do we make this better? You have to stand by your people. You can't throw your people under the bus. That I'm very clear about. It's great. The team is really lucky to have a leader like this. You should ask them. So when we talk of business news overall and we see how it has panned out over the years, what are the bigger shifts that you have seen and where it has arrived, where it is now at the moment? I can speak about the changes from a CNBC TV 18 perspective. So as I pointed out, we started off being seen as a stock market channel because large part of the programming was based on what's happening in the markets today and so on and so forth. But today we're much more than that. So if I were to tell you that you could split us up into two halves. So from seven in the morning to four o'clock in the afternoon, which is when the markets are trading west squarely and sharply focused on the markets because that is what is relevant to our audience at that particular point in time. So we will give you the best analysis on what's happening in the markets both domestic and global. And of course we've innovated significantly there. The other aspect that we've really built out and you see this now, it's become a household thing where you see management coming on every quarter talking about their results. But that was something that CNBC TV 18 created. Making management, making company boardrooms accessible to you and me, to the retail investor or to just a regular viewer, that is I think something that really changed the way of business reportage as well as access of just regular people to folks who are running businesses in the country. And post four o'clock, as I said, that's the second half of the channel. And it has its own identity. We look at everything that matters to us as a country. So if the morning is about balance sheet of companies and the profit and loss as far as the markets are concerned, the evening is about the balance sheet of the country. So we look at what matters to consumers. What are the reforms that are working? What are the reforms that are not working? What needs to be done in terms of prioritization of capital and so on and so forth? So the evening is about policy. It's about politics. It's about, as I said, entrepreneurship. It's about aspiration. It's about lifestyle. So we've sort of channelled our energies into two halves, again driven by what is relevant to our audience. And I find it very hard to believe, and I get this question very often, that why are you doing stories on tomato prices? Not like your audience cares about that. How does my audience not care about that? You know, the management of Hindustan Unilever, which I believe is our audience, not want to know what's happening with tomato prices. Would the consumer not want to know what's happening with tomato prices? So why should it not be my story? Why should Manipur not be my story? It impacts the balance sheet of this country. It impacts the socio-economic fabric of this country. Why should we stay silent on a story that is of national importance? So I think those are the things that really drive the decisions that we make in the newsroom in terms of prioritization, in terms of what we talk about, what we take up, what we report on. And as I said, we have boundaries that the brand has provided for us. So as I said, we're essentially a business news brand. So even when we look at politics, we look at it from a different lens. When we look at reforms, we look at it from a different lens. So the lens is different, but business does not run in a political vacuum, for instance. So we cannot abdicate spaces only because we're seen as a business news channel. We have to ensure that we occupy those spaces and make them our own and tell stories there using our lens. I think giving business news a human angle, not just about numbers, looking at what people are interested in. I think this is a shift, of course. In the second half, as you said, you focus on even stories that are human-centric but have a business aspect to them. I'll give you many examples, for instance, that I would hold as significant contributions of the brand. So 21 years ago, we started a program called Young Turks. It is today one of the world's longest running programs on startups and entrepreneurship. 21 years ago, nobody was talking about startups. Nobody was talking about unicorns. Nobody was talking about any of that. But we made that bet. That is part of the kind of thought leadership that I was telling you about, that as brands that occupy leadership space, we have to be thought leaders. So 21 years ago, we said, look, if the Indian economy has opened up and the Indian economy is expected to grow at 78%, well, then there's going to be a generation of entrepreneurs, hopefully, that will come up. It's a different matter that I didn't expect it to run for 21 years. But we created that space. We provided that platform. We gave regular kids the ability to dream and to think, hey, these kids from IIT have gone on to create a company. Why can't I? So that's been part of the journey as well. And it's been a learning for us also. Because these were bets that we made on the back of our gut instincts. And over time, they've paid off. So we've also learned to, I would say, hone our gut instinct to see what are things, what are those next big bets that we can make that really connect with the audience, that connect with our viewers and continue to make the brand relevant in the market. Right. Absolutely. I mean, I do agree. That is the role of leadership, being in a leadership position. I think that's a role, which you have played. And of course, then we have seen what happened to the startup world and the ecosystem. And I think India has become the biggest example of successful startups. Being on TV and interviewing so many people, of course, is a long list. But then what are the moments that really play back in your mind at times that you still recall some favorite moments? I mean, from all, I know it's a very difficult thing to kind of pin point two or three. But if something comes to your mind, what would that be? That is really kind of a moment that really has captured your imagination to say. Well, there have been so many moments over the last two decades. It's hard to sort of pin down some of them. But I treat every interview, every conversation, every show as something that I hope to learn from. That I should be able to take back something from that and I should be able to give something to that as well. So for me, I'm very clear about that, which is why I don't take my interviewer's time for granted. I remember something that my first boss, Karan Thapur, taught me and he's very meticulous about research and due diligence and those are the things that I hold very close as principals that drive our newsroom as well. And so for me, I don't walk into an interview saying, I don't go in there with a preset of questions, with a prefix set of questions but I go in there with, what are the issues that I can talk about which could be interesting? You know, where can I lead that conversation which could be interesting? So I go in there well prepared and I continue to do that. I make the effort because I don't want to take the interviewer's time for granted and I certainly don't want to take my audience's time for granted because if anybody is investing 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, whatever minutes of their life watching your show or sitting down and having a conversation with you then as I said, they need to feel, they take something back from that experience and I need to feel, I have taken something back from that experience and the audience needs to feel that they have benefited in some form or fashion from watching that program and so that has always driven my process as far as putting a show together, doing an interview, etc. is concerned. And there's so much I've learned, I mean, you know, from the initial days of being able to interview people like Bill Gates where you never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that as a 20-something year old, I would be sitting down having a conversation with somebody like Bill Gates or with somebody like Benazir Bhutto which was very, very early on in my career and I was like, you know, in my early 20s. So I think those are the experiences that, you know, that still stay very fresh in your memory because, you know, you look back and say, what gave you the confidence? I mean, now I think like, I mean, how did I, how did I, you know, how did I do that? And so those are some of the, you know, the memories of, you know, just sort of walking through the emphasis campus with Anna Narayana Muthi and Nanda Nilikani show that they did together for the very first time, you know, way back. Then it's just so many wonderful experiences with all kinds of different people in India and abroad that it's hard to pin them down. As you said, and I also read that you are a hands-on person. I mean, even if you have the teams with you, you will still go and do your own research. I mean, how do you stay disciplined? I mean, in a daily 20, we all have 24 hours and so much to do. So many things come up. I mean, how do you manage your time? By the way, I have to ask you this question. No, you know, look, it comes down to prioritization. And I think that you have to, you know, you've got to focus on what is, what is the most important job that I need to get done today? You know, what is the most important interview of the day? And then accordingly, you know, spend more time on that. So if I'm doing a big interview that I know is with a big headliner, et cetera, I will spend more part of my day researching or focusing or preparing for that versus, you know, something else that I may or may not be doing. So I think it boils down to prioritization. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's, as I said, if you walk into the newsroom with the approach and the attitude that what you do has to have meaning. What you do has to have substance. Then, you know, then you make the effort. You get the job done. So, you know, I think that attitude is just something that you have to relive every single day. And it doesn't happen again, as I said, by accident. You have to live that every day. But, you know, time management is really about prioritization. I would be sort of lying if I said that it's easy or that sometimes you don't drive yourself crazy trying to be able to do all things at one. There are days when, you know, you eat lunch at dinner time or you don't eat it at all. Or, you know, I mean, I've just come back from shooting in the US and I was working two time zones. So, you know, I've been sleeping three hours. So these are, you know, but it's part of the process and you just have to accept it. There's no point fighting it. I think the more you fight against something and the more you think, oh, my God, I've only slept for three hours and now what's going to happen? It stresses you out even more. So you have to just accept, okay, this is it. This is how it's going to be today. So go with the flow, you know. So that's my approach at least. Two, three more questions. One is about, you know, we talk about Indian economy, of course, growing in a big way and all of that. And that impacts the news associated with it. But if you see in the global mix and we talk of business news where how much more can India do on that front? I mean globally. I mean, how can Indian business news become globally more attractive to have more viewers? Do we, are we thinking on those lines as leaders? Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. Look, you know, India is playing a larger role as far as the global map is concerned. You know, whether you talk about the growth of the economy or you talk about, you know, regional partnerships bilateral partnerships and so on and so forth. India is today, you know, and it has successfully been playing a larger and larger role, you know, in the global order. And more so in the last few years, especially post COVID where we are seeing this global move towards, you know, reframing the global economy, a change in the way that people are looking at supply chains and so on and so forth. And that does bring India back into significance, you know, as a destination that people are considering. Of course, it is one of the world's largest markets. So companies want to be here. You know, it is a large addressable market. So any multinational doesn't have the luxury now of saying India and or India or you have to have an India strategy. And so for us, how do we, you know, how do we take that forward? I mean, I run a program called Global Dialogues, for instance, where we talk to global CEOs. And so, you know, the effort really is to understand how a global company is looking at the India opportunity. What are the changes that they've seen? What kind of investments are they going to make and so on and so forth, which, you know, will also help a global audience understand the India story. So yeah, absolutely. I do believe that we need to focus on content, which will make India accessible to a global audience and people will also be able to relate and understand about the changes that are taking place here in India. For instance, we've just commissioned a whole series on, you know, the large infrastructure changes and infrastructure projects that we are seeing. And so we're really capturing that story. We're capturing the story of what's happening on the tech side, on the policy side. So I think these are all things that a global audience will get perspective from on where India finds itself today and how they can really connect back with this story. And because we're now digital as well, and through CNBCTV18.com, we are trying to sort of, you know, not just do that on TV, but do it 360. So, you know, through CNBCTV18.com, through our YouTube channel, through our social media pages, et cetera, we are trying to connect with the global audience as well. Right. You know, I mean, in between there was this conversation that, you know, there are so many mediums mushrooming that how would TV stay relevant, but it has stayed relevant, you know, and it will continue to stay relevant. That is the belief. But how do you see the relevance of TV? What bigger shifts need to happen to keep TV, you know, relevant for the audiences and they find meaning, keep finding meaning in it. For example, recently spoke to someone and they said that news TV has become news TV for a reason because you have the headline, but you don't have the perspective. So in that respect, how would business TV, you know, stay relevant according to you? You know, and here's how I look at it. I don't see us as a TV brand anymore. I see us as a 360 brand. I see us as a news provider, as a content provider and the distribution is up to the consumer. They want to consume us on TV. They want to consume us on their mobile phone. They want to consume us on Twitter. They want to consume us on YouTube. That is a choice that the consumer is going to have to make. I have to ensure that whatever choice you make, you find me there. You know, that is our job that, look, the world is changing, people may not necessarily be sitting in front of a television screen. So does that mean that my brand is no longer going to be relevant? I have to ensure that wherever the viewer is consuming news, I have to be present there. So the challenge for us is one of distribution. The challenge for us is not content creation. We continue to create content. The challenge is customization of that content. What works on television doesn't necessarily work in exactly the same way on Twitter or on Instagram. So we have to, you know, and we've got great, we've got a very small team, but we've got a great team that looks at customizing our content, our television content and hosting it across different platforms. We're also now focused on digital-first content. So things that are specifically made for YouTube, made for Instagram, made for Twitter, made for, you know, CNBCTV18.com, etc. So I think the challenge for us and for brands in general is one of how do you ensure that you're relevant in the areas that the consumer is moving to? So it's less of a content problem. As I said, it's more of a distribution issue. And so that is, that's something that we've been sort of doing now actively for the last two or three years. And there's a lot more that needs to be done, I think, because everyone's figuring it out. I don't think anyone in India or globally has the perfect playbook on how do you address this. I think, you know, it's all trial and error at this point in time. Some bets are working, some are not. But it's an exciting time because it's a time that challenges you. It's a time that also gets you to go back to the drawing book, unlearn some of the stuff that you had taken for granted and learn new ways of doing things. So I think that's really the future at this point in time. I think it is going to be a mix. It's going to be a hybrid, you know, of TV coexisting with other mediums as well, other platforms as well. But you have to engage with the audience where the audience is going. You cannot expect the audience to come to where you are. You have to adapt to the requirements. Absolutely. So we see you on TV. We see you hosting all the time. I mean, you're at work, but when you are not working and you're not in the newsroom, what do you like to do? I mean, how do you like to spend your time? I'm very basic. I don't really have a long list of things that I like to do or not. I mean, I'm focused on food is my number one passion in life. So that is where I spend my time and my money finding new places to visit and eat at. Spending time with my friends and with my family and yoga. I think that's pretty much the sum and substance of what I really do outside of work. But as I said, I don't have a long list of things I want to do or things I want to see or so on and so forth. I'm more sort of go with the flow. One, you have studied philosophy. So I have to ask you one around that. Even when I met you at our platform, one thing has stood out that you came across the most humble person to interact with because of course, and then you have all the reason to kind of have all the kind of word attitude that we use so often. But what keeps you grounded and humble? What is that magic thing that you're doing to stay humble? I don't take any of this seriously. I don't take the fame seriously. I don't take the trappings of glory and success and all of that that comes with this seriously. Of course, I respect it. I value it. I enjoy it, but that doesn't define me. It doesn't define who I am. And I am very clear about the fact that it's all transient. Going back to the philosophical side of me, I truly believe it's transient. People, the fame, the adulation, all of that comes with the fact that you're visible on TV. Tomorrow, if I'm not visible on TV, it'll be a different story. And so if you start to believe in your own myth and start to believe that, oh, I'm the greatest gift to mankind, I believe there's only one way to go and that's down downhill. So I've always been very clear about the fact that I'm doing a job. One of the privileges of this job is the fact that I get to wear a microphone and I get to sit in front of a camera and I get to talk to the world. And so people believe that I have something special to say or people believe that I'm visible and so I get that recognition, et cetera. But that's my job. That is not who I am. And tomorrow, if this job doesn't exist, then it'll be a crisis of confidence for me if I were to sort of place everything linked to my identity to this particular job. And it's really interesting because I watched a video a couple of days ago and this is exactly what that person said, that have you ever thought about the fact that when somebody asks you, what do you do? How do you define yourself? We always end up answering that with our job titles or with our job description or our job description. So I think I've been mindful of the fact that it is transient. It is a privilege and a perk of the job that you have. And life is too short to take this stuff so seriously. So yeah, I don't do that. That's a beautiful mindset. I would definitely try to learn from what you said. It's such a beautiful thought. Last two questions. One is who do you look up to? Of course, you have had great mentors. But who do you look up to? What inspires, who inspires you? What do you need to even stay updated? I mean, when do you get time to do all of that? So the reading is really transactional. The reading is because so much of it is linked to the interviews that you're doing, the shows that you're doing, whatever, that by the end of the day, now I struggle with finding time to just do some non-work related reading. I still try and do that, but it becomes less and less. I mean, I find inspiration or I'm very lucky to have had great mentors. You know, Karan Thapar, Siddharth Vasu, Raghav Behl, Senthil Changal Varayan, you know, Mr. Murthy. I mean, all of these people have taught me so much in my professional life. And you know, I'm a firm believer in staying open to ideas, in staying open to what you see, what you read. And learning from that. So I get inspired by a conversation that I might have with a five-year-old or a conversation that I might have with a 90-year-old. And I think that's what keeps me alive and that's what keeps me sort of going and growing. And I think, I think, of course, for us as journalists, I think curiosity has to be instinctive. It has to be one of the key attributes, one of the key qualities. And so of course, you know, you're curious about what's happening around you, what's happening in the world. But I think it's also important for me, you know, as a human being to have empathy. And I think that very often we sit in judgment on other people and I think we love to do it in the media where, you know, you want to hold everyone and everything else to account, but yourself. And I always feel that you need to have empathy for the people that you work with, for the people that you report on. And that's not to say that, you know, you need to softball. That's not to say that you need to not do hard-hitting reportage, etc. But you need to have basic human decency. You need to have courtesy and manners about how you approach people or how you treat people. And that's important to me as a human being. I don't ever want, you know, I will not raise my voice on television. I don't believe in that. I don't believe in that in my personal life. I will not get into a confrontation. I will ask you hard-hitting questions, but I will do it in a way that is acceptable to me as a human being. And I would expect that I get treated in a similar way as well. So I think those are the things that I'm very mindful of. And I hope and I pray that we do see some degree of sanity return to newsrooms as well. Because, you know, there's a certain, there's a line, I think, that existed where you operated in an environment where, and again, as I said, you know, you ask the hard-hitting questions. You ask the tough questions based on fact, not based on noise. And I think that is something that we need to reclaim as the news business today. Bring it back to television. You know, a lot of youngsters are looking at, of course, the career in business news, TV, news TV. What is your advice to them? I mean, how can they kind of, you know, kind of learn what should, what kind of skills? And because things have changed, the era has changed. What is your advice to them? You know, my only advice would be be clear about why you want to do this. You know, and this is the first question that I ask people who come looking for a job. Are you doing this because you want to be on TV? If the answer to that is yes. I, you know, I'm like, you know, you need to, you need to review or evaluate beyond that. Because it's not just about being on TV. Being on TV is the five minutes or the 10 minutes. And if you're an anchor, maybe a little bit longer. But it's the stuff that goes beyond that, you know, with the hours and hours of work that you need to put in to be able to get that five minutes on TV. And if you're not ready to do the time, then this is not the place for you. Because this is a job that is 24 seven. It is a job that like the medical profession, like law enforcement is 24 seven. I can't remember the last time I've switched my phone off. You know, and, and when, when there is breaking news, you can't say, oh, I'm sorry. I'm watching a movie or I'm, you know, having dinner or I'm whatever. You know, you have to, you have to, you have to make sacrifices. And these are personal sacrifices that you will have to make. And if you have the attitude of saying that that's not going to work for me. Well, then this is not the right space for you. You know, so you need to be very clear about that. And you need to be clear about what drives you, what motivates you. Because again, as I keep pointing out that, you know, the, the fame and the success, it takes time. There is no shortcut to it. And you know, you will have to work long hours. You will have to work perhaps sometimes for years before you get those, those breaks. If you're lucky, you will get them early on. But you have to have patience. You have to have perseverance. You have to have curiosity. You have to have a lot of passion for what you do. And you, you really have to come with, with a, with a learning mindset. And I think those are the things that I would, I, you know, if that's, that's your jam. Then this is the, this is the place for you. Okay. So the interview is incomplete without a question around the new office that we are in. So, I mean, I can see, you know, things changed. I mean, what is, what is it like? I mean, I mean. So we've literally just moved here. It was bittersweet because we left our studios and our office in Film City where we were housed for almost 18 years. But this is a new start. It's a new beginning. And, you know, the, the entire network is going to be in this building. So all, all 20 plus channels will be housed here and websites will be housed here. So in that sense, it becomes a sort of network 18. Yes. Network 18 family all together. So that's, that's great. It's a, you know, it's a very large space as you can see. So we're also now working with converged teams. So the TV team, the digital team, everyone sort of operating together. There are no silos. And, and so, you know, it's much more sort of cohesive and collaborative. And, you know, lots of nice natural light coming in. We of course continue to have an open studio. So that also, that also means that people here have to be more disciplined because, you know, any, if you're having loud conversations, et cetera, the mics will pick it up here. But, yeah, but it's a, it's a new start for us and we're excited about it. It's been a pleasure talking to you on headline makers really, really. And I enjoyed this role reverse. And I really enjoyed the conversation and a lot of learnings from you as well. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you for your time and for giving me the opportunity. Thank you. Thank you.