 First question is from Jay Hothi. Is there a different way to train for wide lats versus thick lats? Oh with versus thick lats. I think a better way to word that question would be train for a wide back or a thick back. Yeah, you're right. I would agree. Then say thick lats or a wide lats. Yeah, cuz the lats. That's not gonna change. No, the lats grow when they shrink, right? So if they grow they're gonna get thicker and wider, right? But when you're looking at back width, you're typically talking about the lats. So if you were to look at like an anatomy chart of the back, the lats kind of come up and attach up in the top of the arms and they come all the way down and attach along the spine and there's these really big kind of wing muscles that are, you know, they kind of, they give you the width look to your back. Because when you think like rhomboids or rectospinae would be more of a thick back. Yeah, rhomboids mid trapezius, rectospinae. That's what's gonna give you that kind of thick looking back. So I like this question though, because I remember the bro way of explaining this, like I had buddies that would train like this where they would do all their lat exercises, narrow grip, cuz in theory we're trying to make their lats thicker that day or they would go all wide grip because they're trying to go width. And the way this is worded is probably somebody who's been either told this or is thinking this and I think that's just the wrong way to look at it. It's like developing your lats 100% is going to make you wider looking, right? Because the lats run on the side of you like that. The muscles that I think will give you more of a thicker back look would be attacking things like your rhomboids, your traps, your rectospinae. Those are the muscles that I think are gonna give you more depth. Yeah, so typically anything that's like a pull up, a pull down, you're gonna hit the lats much more directly. Things like rows still work the lats, but you're gonna get more of those mid-back muscles, deadlifts, right? Lots of those mid-back muscles, lots of the rectospinae. And it's funny through the years I now am able to really tell with decent accuracy if someone does a lot of rows and deadlifts versus if someone does lots of pull ups. And you can see it in their back. You really can. I remember years ago there was this guy that would come into the gym and he was just a pull up machine. And he had these really wide back with these kind of hanging lats, but he did lack some of that thickness. Yeah, he did lack some of that upper back fitness. Then there was these power lifters that I knew that lacked the width from the lats, but they had such thick, deep looking backs. So really for full development, you want to kind of do all of it. You want to do all of it. Well, that was the biggest thing that I saw into Justin's point about the rectospinae was, man, when I, when you guys pushed me to lift heavy deadlifts, I had never done that in my life. Like I had deadlifted, but not heavy, like not singles, doubles, triples, lifting or even under five reps. It was always something I did lightweight. I did them at the end of workouts. I was never trying to push the weight with deadlifts. And I remember I, and I got to go back because I know you've referenced itself before that picture before and after is so telling. And all the only difference is literally, I, and I actually threw out like all of their back exercise, all I did was deadlift. And so to see the difference. Now you got to remember that I got 15 years plus of before that of doing all kinds of lat pull down and pull ups and all the traditional type of, you know, lat and back exercises. The only thing I wasn't doing was really focusing on deadlifting and what that could do for my back. It's also why I'm so defensive when I see the trainers that try and shit on deadlifting as a back exercise, because nothing gave my back a fuller, thicker, better look than that. I mean, and that was one of my early critiques from judging was when the first judge saw me was like, Oh, you could improve your back thickness. And I went after deadlifting and it totally changed the look of my back. Yeah, it's funny. When you see like strength athletes, like power lifters make the transition to bodybuilding, you often will see the issue of back width. So they oftentimes have to then focus on really getting the last belt, but they don't lack thickness. They've got really, really thick back. Oh, our buddy Ben Pollock is a great example of that. I mean, he is just thick. Yeah, thick. But you can see that he's having to work on the width to bring that kind of bodybuilding, you know, that that flared lat look or whatever. So you got to do them both. But as far as the lats are concerned, you develop them or you don't. And when you develop them, they'll get wider and thicker. But you want that mid back that that, you know, canal down the spine where, you know, dips in because everything's real thick, deadlift and row. Yeah, that heavy lifting where you're just in that isometric contraction of stabilizing your spine. And now since we're on the topic, if you want that, that yoke where it's like the traps and upper back, like do your, your high poles, your cleans, your farmer walks carries. Yep. Oh yeah. You ever like you ever run into like an athlete that does just lots of cleans and high poles. And they're not really focused on aesthetics. They're just trying to focus on getting really good at cleans and high poles. And what do they always have? Super thick, like upper kind of traps, traps. Yeah, I noticed that from training with Justin, we trained when we I was training with him, or because we were building the app while I was also competing. And I get workouts in with him and I would do cleans the presses. So and I remember I went a good saw, I would say a good saw six months to a year of no more traditional shoulder presses. Anytime I shoulder press, I cleaned the press and got up to a point where I was trying to catch up to Justin what he was what he was doing weight wise. And I remember close to him or I got close. I don't think I was doing the same weight as he could do. Justin's a machine with that. But I do what I did notice was again, because I'm getting, you know, judged and I see pictures and I'm critiquing my physique like crazy during this time in my life, was the upper back development from that was incredible and shoulders to it blew my shoulders up, blew my traps up just a great, great movement for the upper back. Yeah, it's got to be the one area of the body that if you develop it really well and balanced, it gives you this overall appearance of strength. I think some of that has to do to with it. Those exercise promote you pulling your shoulders back and better posture. So at least I feel that way. Like if you get that upper back that's thick like that, not only are you standing upright with good posture, then your t-shirt kind of hangs off so you can see that this person's all developed up there in the fast twitch movement. You know, getting that kind of stimulus is that too that people lack a lot in their training. So to be able to kind of get that from some of these like powerlifting. What a great point. When does anybody do an explosive exercise for your shoulders or for your upper back? Like you just rarely ever see that as an explosive type of movement that you train. I think that's part of that. I think it's good to point that out actually, Justin, because I think that's half of why I saw such great benefit from doing that was I never did that. Yeah. So of course, it's yeah, that exercise is great for that. But if you do it all the time, obviously the thing that we always talk about the exercise you never do is probably the most beneficial. And then the other thing too is from a functional standpoint, you can't always judge a book by its cover, obviously. But I know the people that I would when I would grapple the people that I could look at and tell like that's a strong person, had a well developed back and hips, like everything else didn't matter. If I had a well developed back and hips, you know, they're strong, you know that they're strong, you tend to see that in athletes.