 So, I just started the recording. So, just to let everyone know, this is Angela. I work for the town manager's office. And this meeting is being recorded and will be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel. This is a meeting of the Amherst Public Arts Commission. And at this time, I'd like to recognize the chair, Terry Holt and take it away. Terry. Thank you so much, Angela. Have a good night. Okay. Um, my name is Terry Holt. Welcome to the Amherst Public Arts Commission meeting of November 20. Oh, 27th 2023. I'm going to read my little intro here. So you're all ready. In light of the ongoing COVID-19 coronavirus outbreak, then Governor Baker issued an emergency order on March 12, 2020, allowing public bodies greater flexibility and utilizing technology and the conduct of meetings under the open meeting law. We're starting to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. This meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so by clicking on the zoom link. This recording is uploaded to the town's YouTube channel promptly after the meeting. I think that's all I need to say. So roll call. We have six of us here. We have lost. No, we didn't. Well, we lost Angela. Let's go ahead and move forward. I don't think Robert's going to make it. I don't think he responded to my email. So we'll just move right forward. So we are very happy tonight to have cat striker in the present. So we are going to adjust our agenda a little bit so that we can accommodate her. If that's okay with you, Kat, can I get Catherine or Kat? Yeah, fine. Okay. I'm going to share my screen, but I sent you all the materials and we've looked over it. Last month as well. Before a lot of a nail project. So if you have that in your email, you can take a look at it. And I will also share my screen. Because that's fun. There we go. Okay, so do you all see my screen? Yes. I'll send you an email. I've got with this in it for your minutes. Thank you, Jim. All right, great. So, Ken, if you want to start us off and talk to us about your project, we will be all ears when I follow along here. Okay. Well, it all starts actually with the North Amherst library. I first came to Amherst when I was two, three years old. My dad was a student at UMass and some of my earliest memories are of actually walking to the library and back. And my, I grew up in England, obviously with the accent, but kept a connection with the area and move back here permanently about 20 years ago. I got quite a connection with North Amherst, raised my girl here, and I've always been an amateur historian. I've always been very, very interested in the locality and what has been there in the past. You know, everywhere I go, I want to know what I'm looking at. I knew about the old maps of North Amherst just out of curiosity, and I knew that there was an old blacksmith's shop behind the library itself. So when I learned that an extension was being built, first I was really happy that the library was going to be brought up into the 21st century. And secondly, I was always kind of looking and curious, what are they excavating? You know, how's it going? What's the progress? And I noticed that they started excavating a bunch of old horseshoes from the site of the Smiths. So naturally, I was very curious and wanted to know what right builders were going to do with them because they seem to be just piling up on the heaps of spoil. I knew these were sort of wonderful reminders of a different era and a different way of living, and one that was like deeply connected with the little sort of village center of North Amherst that was sort of part of the development of UMass, the whole history of the town, etc. And I asked and I said, you know, what are you planning on doing with those horseshoes? And the builders were a little terrified, you know, middle-aged woman marching across the car park asking what they were doing. You know, I reassured them that, you know, no hassle here. I just wanted to know. So they calmed down a bit and said, well, you know, we're not having no plans. And I said, please, would you put them to one side? So they did, but they were busy. And I thought, well, let me save a few of those. So my arm snaked in under the chain link fence and I pulled out like 12 of the best. And I thought, you know, these should go back to the library in some form and to be a lovely just reminder to people of how people used to live and what used to be there and perhaps an access point for histories that they might not have thought about. So obviously with horses and being a keen horsewoman too, I grew up with horses and a little Devon. Sorry, this is the story of my life to get to the actual point. I had my collection of 12 horseshoes and I developed grand ideas for a sculpture that would incorporate the shoes, the original shoes on the site with an idea of sort of freedom as well for the horses. It's all sort of generated into for want of a nail which you see before you. And it's my way of giving back to the town and my connection with the library, plus the love of horses, plus the amateur historian local history that's my bag. And I put together the proposal and chunked it out after going to town of Amherst saying, you know, what's what's happening with these horseshoes and they said all mass cultural council have got a great cycle coming up. So I applied and they very kindly gave me some money to get started with. And the proposal is for, well three things really. The first is an exhibition of my findings in the library. So people see the horseshoes as they are. The second one is a website attached to that that I've been working on as well. And the piece that I wanted to talk with you about is the sculpture, because obviously it's going to be public art. And there have been a lot of approvals to get to this point. I had a meeting with Paul Bockelman and Guilford mooring, just to run it past them. That was in middle of middle of October. They, they let me know the process which would be them taking a look and then referring to to you guys. Terry, you said I should also speak with the Department of Equity and Yeah, the diversity, equity and inclusion. Yeah, yeah. So I wrote to her as well. But I haven't heard back unfortunately. Obviously, like I said to Paul and Guilford, I mean you can't go around whacking up statues in the town, you know you've got to have a committee and people. I think Guilford is a great resource as the head of the DPW he's going to be, you know, really instrumental in making sure the mooring is good and the pedestal and all that. So he's got to have him there. Well, I talked to Paul a little bit too about it so. Yeah. Nice. I said to Guilford my main concern is to make this statue student proof. I was going to say it looks a little pokey on the top. Kids don't climb on this. Absolutely, absolutely not. But Guilford got pretty pretty enthusiastic about it and he said he could give us access to the, the town of Amherst quarry. So we can meet we meaning Eric, the Eric and Dennis the blacksmith who I've approached with the idea, and Eric and I could choose a suitable plinth, which would be a rough natural stone, which is dug into the ground. So, you know, I'm thinking like for students messing around can't move or carry this thing off. Can you tell you what they did to Robert Frost. No, yeah. And those poor ceramic pigs up at, you know, cows I mean they probably got their own only fans page at this point. Anyway, so yeah, Guilford's on board with it and they were very enthusiastic about the idea and I gave them the details of Eric Dennis's proposal because when I met with him I was looking for a blacksmith who would, who, who would have a sensitivity towards the brief, because what I wanted was not just something made out of horseshoes. The first of all the ones that I'd found were very rusty so they couldn't be used for the sculpture, but secondly it needed to flow I wanted something that had an artistic expression, which combined the, the, the, the work, the workmanship of a blacksmith and the art of the farrier so you could you could see I mean people bend metal which is an incredible skill. The art of the farrier they bend it in a special way to be purposeful and utilitarian what were these purposes for draft horses working at the fields etc etc. So you've got that you've got that, but it's also an homage to the horses of Amherst because in our age of machines. It's easy to forget how much we owe the horses that were the labor for, you know, building for transport for everything I mean nothing happened without without horsepower at one stage in our lives. So, you know the flowing main the combination of horseshoes which are provided by muddy brook drafts yeah. And that's another nice nice nod to am Hurston horses. So we've got the steel shoes from muddy brook. Then Eric's inimitable styling using forged iron which you can see in his drawings. And he's got the flowing main that I envisioned, and the pedestal is this wonderful sort of curved shape. I love the profile that's come out and the final drawing that he's, he's, he's come up with. I find it light and free and substantial, all at the same time set in the stone. The finish is going to be a combination of oil and wax, the octopus that you see by Eric Dennis that was his oil wax finish that's a privately commissioned sculpture that's been outside in New England weather for 18 months. So it's pretty good. And then, at a certain point, it will begin to rust. And I think at that point it'll have its own charm as well, because nothing is permanent. And, you know, the combination of that with a natural stone will give it another look but hopefully that'll be in sort of 1015 years time. And ultimately, you know, the the sculpture will rust away at some point. And hopefully that'll be much further down the the line but that's part of the natural process. And by then, people will hopefully have fallen in love with it and associated with the library and associated with North Amherst and it could spark, you know, dreams and interest of how people worked with metal and how horses were part of our lives back then. So that so far is the plan. And obviously all of this was inspired by the proverb. Yeah, for one to the nail to ensure everybody knows part of the money, which came from the mass cultural commission. I said with the website, I would bring out a lot of the history so you know early research. I've known this picture I've seen it before with the the Dowds blacksmith shop as it was. There's a lot of other information out there about blacksmiths around Amherst because they were very important daily life for people. So that could be included in the website. You know a little bit of history of blacksmiths in Amherst particular this this Louis J spear shop. That's actually where the fire station is in central Amherst. That isn't the North Amherst one. But you can see the mules pack animals, lovely old lovely old working horse there on the left, all wrapped up in winter blankets. They would have had winter shoes and special studs for traction for working in the fields. Yeah, that's a wonderful picture. And then here this section David Warner's work, very, very down to her things fixing kettles, you know sharpening edge tools, putting together chain all of this would have been part of the metal working shop and the skill sets that these people had. And there yeah some of the shoes as they were coming out of the ground. So early on I reached out to people and I reached out Mass Cultural Council of course, American Farriers Association, we all geeked out on horseshoes and the history of them which was great fun. And they gave me information about some of the types of shoes that I have in the collection. And I got in touch with district one North Amherst. They're putting together the Mill River history trail at the moment. So a lot of our interest overlap and I've been to a couple of their meetings. And the blacksmith shop they were aware of as well so that's that's something we'll combine our resources on and hopefully I can contribute greatly to what they're doing. Jones library with thrilled to bits Sharon said oh this is wonderful you know I would a great way of presenting history and town of Amherst Paul thinks the kids are going to absolutely love it. The builders were thrilled to bits that I didn't insist on, you know, commissioning a full archaeological dig on their extension car park building, you know, so they've forgiven me. They've also got a couple of boxes of stuff that they dug up while I was away this summer. And they gave them to somebody in the town but we're not quite sure where they are. So maybe in future, they'll be found again. And then I could incorporate any interesting things I was hoping for some edge tools and some nails and some, you know, more, more kind of basic artifacts as well as the horseshoes. The horseshoes that I've got will be will be lovely. Anyway, but perhaps right builders will throw up a few more things. And then the Museum of our industrial heritage. Yeah, this is a this is a wonderful place up in Greenfield. And it was founded by my dad who is an engineer and fascinated with industrial history. So this is all genetic for sure. The blacksmith Eric Dennis his shop is in their building. So, you know, his forge is under the Museum of our industrial heritage right next to the Green River there, which is rather lovely connection to. And then, yeah, that's that's it so far so I've been from a personal interest and a love of North Amherst and the library in particular, and knowing that I've been here for a long time and wanting to do something for the town. And then it spiraled off into well what's it going to look like. And now it's at the stage of letting people who need to know and approve this going forward. Know about it and get obvious permissions approvals input thoughts, etc, etc, before the next major phase which is the fundraising. So for the fundraising part you have so you have the exhibition. You already got funding to fund the exhibition for the mass cultural councils that right. Yeah, pretty much they gave me 940 bucks and some of that's been spent already on WD 40 and vinegar to clean. I've got to come up with a neat display case. I'd like to take a look inside the library to find something that's really copacetic with the extension. So I'll be forking out on a display case. Yeah, and I've made a website, the for want of a nail dot info. And right now it's focus is on letting people know, and also for fundraising there's places where people can contribute if they're interested. But this is all very much under the radar and I haven't publicized it because I need to get everyone's permissions before I even begin. So I made the website. Oh, it's dot info. Yeah, info dot com. Just dot info. There you go. So I spent money on the domain name and the website and, you know, it's, it's a go daddy so it's like 150 bucks for the first year, and I'd like it to be for another year. So that I mean that's pretty that's that's already probably half of the cultural council grant. For the sculpture, Eric's estimate is between five and a half K and eight and a half K. Initially we were talking around the sort of four five mark when we were speaking about it. Which was, you know, achievable as far as I was concerned. And then he wanted to do something sort of a bit more detailed a little bit a little bit bigger, and so on so the actual size of it is going to depend on how well I can fundraise. I would like to, I would like to really kind of crowdfund this and approach every little business, every resident that I can in not just North Amherst but Amherst I reached out to the, the Chamber of Commerce, and they took a look and they said, you know when I'm ready they'll put it on blast, because one second, I think Dara had a question. Thank you for your charming and very detailed presentation. I want to ask some for a little more detail. So, are you, you're saying that the sculpture as you've commissioned it is going to be between 5000. 8000. Yeah, five and a half to eight and a half is the current estimate eight and a half thousand. Okay. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that please. Who is going to pay that. Well, coming from. Well, I had this conversation with Paul Bockelman, and he said that the best thing to do would be for me to take on the commissioning and then gift the finished statue to the town of Amherst. I mean, you're not looking for money from the town of Amherst. No, it'll be, it'll be entirely on my shoulders for the fundraising. So the town of Amherst will then, you know, have full control, if you like, over the finished sculpture, because it'll be my gift to the town. And then, you know, if you want to paint it purple and silver, then go ahead because it's yours. If you want to kind of, if it needs to be moved or if it needs to be taken down, it rusts out, you know, any issues. It's the towns to handle. Because copyright this work of art. A copyright. I don't think so. I mean, it's going to be Eric Dennis's creation, obviously on an extremely detailed brief from me. The red box, the what you're proposing. What we're looking at now. I'm looking at the box and caption latest sketches October 2023. Is that what it's going to look like. Okay, yes, yes. Terry, scroll down so we're on this website. Sorry. I'm not on the website. I'm on the, for one of the nail that you sent. You're on the proposal. Okay, sorry. Yeah, back to the proposal. We're going to need a copy of what you're displaying to us, please, if that's all on the town website already. Okay, good. Okay, here we are. There we are latest sketch sculpture sketches by Eric Dennis. So that's three of them, the largest one, which says latest sketches October 23 with a subtitle. That's the current version. The two to the right of that were earlier versions and the earliest sketchy ideas that he had. So this big one is is the latest concept. And so how is that going to be. Is that going to be accessible by the public. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Let me ask you about the way I'm the reason I'm asking you as I'm looking at it and they seem to be a number of sharp edges on it. So what's going to, is there going to be any protection from children getting hurt or college students having too much to drink and climbing on it and either hurting cells or the static. I planned oil the stone. This is a serious question because somebody's hurt on the statue. It's could result in lawsuit against the town, which the town might well win. But not after not before paying their lawyers a lot of money so that's where he's and besides that who wants to see somebody hurt. Yeah, that's why I'm asking about that. Yeah, I'm looking at it and it looks a little like a. You know, it looks like it might be something you need to think about these. No, understood. The reason for mounting it on a stone plinth, which is quite tall is taking those can safety considerations into the design. So the stone is going to be dug in so you can't tip it over, and it's going to be quite tall and quite steep, even though a natural stone so think of something like a steep pyramid with rough edges. You know natural stone, and yeah, I mean it's going to be out of metal. What's the exact height of the plinth you're talking about. We would have to select it from what's available in Guilford Manning's quarry, and it would be dug down into the ground by about say three foot. I'm interested I know about the digging down part I'm more interested in how elevated it would be to incorporate the idea of preserving safety that James asked you about. Yeah, well, it can be I think you also wanted visible to so maybe a compromise height to be around four and a half to five and a half foot off the ground. So the height of the top of the stone would be like four and a half five foot and then you have the sculpture mounted on top of that. That means it would be way out of the reach of younger children. If anyone college students. I mean they could scale it, I mean, you know what college students are like. But there is almost a kind of natural protection because of the site. I wanted to site it actually on the place where the blacksmiths was, and that's opposite Cumbies, and it's on Route 63. I did sit 24 seven the police very often stop for coffee throughout the night at Cumbies opposite the car park opposite the bus stop by the car park. So anybody, you know, getting up to any high jinx, it's going to be a very visible place. So I did think that that in itself would be a kind of natural defense for it. Anyway, let me say it looks beautiful so I do like the aesthetic appeal of it very much but when you say it's going to be out of sight at three o'clock in the morning college students are likely to be up and I don't know that all that traffic is going to be buzzing around. There's a legal term for this and the reason I'm concerned about it's a well known legal problem it's called attractive nuisance. If you have an attractive nuisance you become liable for people who get hurt by your attractive nuisance. So right now, you know, I'm hearing this proposal for do for the heart it would be wonderful with no detail in issues like well how much is it going to cost you need a contract for it. You said the town is not going to be responsible for anything so that's very generous of you I might add so thank you very much. And it's going to wear out. So these are the issues that I'm seeing that we need to think about. I'm not saying I'm against it or for it I'm just saying I'm starting shoes. Terry. What's our next step after hearing the presentation questions like these. Yeah, so we were bringing this up that we can all have our questions answered. We have a kind of a due diligence that we have to go through as a commission where we have to make sure there's public comment. We have to run this by other organizations in town. Any concerns that we have we'll talk to cat about and get answers for. We had a couple that I wanted to bring up kind of if you don't mind. The first one is. I'm expecting there might be a little pushback on the concept of the horse being the workforce, possibly, we have a immigrant population that would say, well, you know, actually there are some people of color who actually worked with the horses and were going to say, well, you know, there might be a thing if you center too much attention on the horse, which I think is wonderful. But there might be some pushback from some folks in our town who say, well, we really need to talk about the question of who was doing this work humans. That might be, and I know that you were talking about this was going to be part of the path, the trail, I'm sorry, I forgot the words. The trail, the historic society is doing that can't think of the name of the kind of the Mill River history trail. Thank you. And I know that they are incorporating that history in as well of the immigrants in that area. So that's something that I was foreseen that might be some pushback in our town. That's why I asked you to go ahead and talk to somebody with the DEI because they might give you some different perspectives. With the commission, we would have to have those questions answered and go to the other commissions and committees in town to make sure everyone feels okay with having this represent the town of Amherst. So that would that would be what our job would be. And then of course, questions of liability as James brought up. And also I have. Yeah, that's those are those are my concerns. It's beautiful. And so I'm really excited about it. Could you, I'm a little new to town. So you talked about the location of this not being on the, not being at the site of the library. Yes, it is. Okay, I'm trying to picture. So, I'm, as I said, I'm a bit new to town. I've seen the public library in North Amherst but it would be like in front of that building. If you want to click back on the website for want of a nail dot info. Oh, I get it. Okay, and now scroll down to the very bottom. There you go. There's that picture. Okay. It's, it's going to be just where you see that greenery. Okay. Park in the back. Yeah, where that green, it's no it's going to be on the, the west side of 63. Place. This area over here. You see where the greenery is is just where your arrow is. Okay, the old photograph, the old photograph will show better. Oh really. Okay. Yeah. Oh, let me go back up to that. Hold on. But you're looking at the triangle of land from the point there. Two roads come together now. Yeah. Okay. Is that, is that in fact where it is? It is. Yes. And where the landscaping has been done where the car park is. There's actually a little spot which is right next to the, the pavement, the sidewalk that goes to the extension. Okay. And it's, it's just this kind of rounded off shape, which would be absolutely perfect. And it is exactly over the old blacksmith's shot. Okay. This is wonderful for you to do all this research and bring it with the background and everything is greatly, greatly appreciated. Absolutely. Have you worked with the Amherst historic people at the. The Amherst historic. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Jim, with your, your wife and all those folks over there, like the folks, I know that there's a. Some kind of a mandate where if there's physical property found that of a historic nature that that, that the Amherst historic. Is it a society? I'm not sure council. They are supposed to take, take some of the physical property from the library and then display it. But if it's a document, then the library gets to keep it. It's not going to be that easily enough. I bet. Yeah. I just heard if folks have talked to you from Amherst history. Yeah. That's the name. I went to the, the town offices early on in this process and I said, you know, what, what's the, what's the protocol? Because I have artifacts. You know, the right builders. And they said, you know, that's, that's fine by us. You know, thank you for telling us. So they're aware of it from very early on. And the ones that I have, you know, I consider them the property of the town there for everybody. They're not mine or personal collection. I'm looking after them until they can be displayed. So I did get verbal permission directly from the town about that. I was actually just curious from a historic perspective, if they have been able to collaborate with you for informational purposes. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to the Amherst historical society. I'm a yes. Say again, Jim. I was just wondering who you said you talked to someone from the Amherst historical society. I went to the town offices and I spoke with a young chap who. Oh, I'm blanking on his name. I'm sorry. But he wasn't part of the society historical society, but he was all about, you know, archaeological digs and excavations things. So he pointed me in the direction of mass cultural council. And he said, you know, you've got permission from us to go ahead. So it was run past people. As far as the historical society goes, I haven't actually had that much time to do the research that I'd like to do as the next phase, you know, if the sculpture is approved, that's going to trigger a great playing in the sand pit of Amherst history. So am I understand that on the website, as I read, now that the project supporters have all given you money for all of the pieces of this? No, no, no money has changed hands at all. The Muddy Brook Farm. Bless them. They've been saving draft or shoes, which will be incorporated into the sculpture. Jones library of just pieces of the sculpture. Jones library of just been enthusiastic. The farriers association have given me historical background on shoes. I understand that. So I think. I think that. If you're on a website that's going to be fundraising. You should be careful about the language that you use. And that it is. Indicated that they are giving you money. Are these people have given you money? Because it looks as though. They are as it is presented right now. Oh, okay. So what do you think you need to be careful about that? The other question I have is, was there ever any in the course of your. Many, many, many, many years ago? I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. Any in the course of your. Many, many, many steps and work that you've already done and put into it. Anybody who suggested coming to talk to this commission previously. Well, yes. I. Let me think. The, the steps have been logical ones because I knew I would for a period of several months over summer. So when I got back, I reached out to Paul Bockelman in the first instance and just said, hey, listen, Paul, I've got this idea. Who do I now need to speak to? So you have been on my mind for a long time, but I thought, well, I've got to go straight to Paul and Guilford first and let them know about it. And then everybody else will drop into place because I'm sure there are other people I haven't approached yet. I just think it's important. I mean, I think all your work is wonderful and sincere and very serious about the location and history and everything you've reported to us. But there's a precedent that we have to think about in terms of where public art comes from and how on any kind of resources that we encourage are like offered to and able to be gotten on an equal basis with every citizen of the town. You mean non-discriminatory, I think. That is a fine way to say it, but I also think that I don't know of any other time this commission has seen a proposal from an individual and have been in a position to be supporting or not supporting it if we're not being expected to pay for anything. I'm not sure exactly where this is in terms of our involvement at all. It's kind of, it is breaking new ground a little bit. We haven't really had private donors come to us to propose a public art as far as I've read, look back in our history. So this is a little bit new and we're gonna have to talk about it as a commission. We are responsible for coming up with the policies of public art in town to make sure that everything is representative and meets criteria that the entire town has a say kind of thing and that's something that's part of our job. But we don't have a explicit, like it's not written down as a policy, but I've talked to Paul about it and we will have to sort that out as a commission. But I think so far, I think the work you've done is fantastic. Dara, you have a great couple of points there, especially about the supporters page. That is something you might wanna be careful of because it does kind of imply that you've got monetary support from all these folks, which I wish you did, that'd be great. But I think maybe just kind of instead of project support, you might say... Enthusiasts. No. There's gonna be another word, maybe. Maybe the word supporter might be a little bit implied that there is financial support for that. So that's really good advice there, Dara, thank you. So Dara, anybody else wanna have any, anybody else wanna say anything? Yeah, I have a comment on Dara's point because I agree with what you said about precedent. But on the other hand, there are a lot of concerns positive and negative about a proposal like this. One thing that needs to be some kind of a document of a gift for another thing, somebody needs to be sure that the project isn't gonna start and then stop halfway through because of lack of funding or for any other reason. Somebody needs to be responsible that the aesthetic appeal, which looks pretty good to me, but the aesthetic appeal has to be consistent with the town and the town's values and approval of the quality of the work. And so despite the unorthodox nature of this proposal, one of which is that the town doesn't have to pay anything for it. And I can't be against that. I think there is a role for the Public Art Commission to apply. Oh, definitely. Yeah, and then our work is to kind of talk about this and come up with some more questions. And then if it's okay with you, Kat, we'll call you back for another meeting. It's getting a little crazy toward the end of the year. Are you, is this, do you have a time restriction that we need to get back to you because we've got a December meeting and then we're into 2024. So is that problematic in any way? I would really love to kind of get everybody behind this and approving it because I wouldn't want Eric Dennis to start working on other commissions, for example, and then not have the time for this. But importantly is to start the fundraising because I need to be confident that I can pay Eric for his work because it's gonna be like my responsibility to do that. So as soon as I know that the town is happy and supportive and approves on all the different levels that it needs approving, then I can go out and start approaching people for their proper, well, their support, financial support. And that'll determine the enthusiasm amongst the general public because if nobody gives me any money for it and they don't buy into the idea, then there can't be a sculpture. I would really love to see a written proposal from you. Jim, I have a document from Eric Dennis which is the commissioning document and I've sent it to Paul for the legal department to take a look at. I'm happy to share that with you and that pretty much outlines the contract which would be between myself and Eric. And I'm happy to give that to you, yeah? That's one part of it, but you have a very broad vision. You've got this beautiful vision of this. It's gonna be sitting there, it's gonna be room as this in the history and it's gonna, to the extent that there are things not covered in your commissioning contract, I'd like to see something in writing for a proposal. The first thing that leaves to mind is protection under the copyright law or not. And so that's a very important point because if it's protected by copyright, then someone who installs it on public land has certain limitations and how they treat it. And so that becomes relevant to whether it's a good idea to be there. And there's a lot of little details which I'm a creative person too. That's my photograph. I've got an exhibition in the town hall right now. And I had to force myself to become friendly with the tail but the tail is really important when you're talking about a project that's gonna extend into the future and be beautiful for years and then disintegrate or rust, I should say so. So there's all these considerations that we're talking about in general terms that I think we need to think about specifically. Very true. And I wanted to know, what is your timeframe for this for a projected timeframe to get to the point where you're commissioning the sculpture and installing it? Yeah, in a perfect world, I could have you and everybody else's go ahead in December and then I can go out there and secure the major donors who I hope will contribute but before the end of the year to help maybe make a tax deductible contribution using donor's department, Northamhurst, District One, Northamhurst, they said I could use their 501K status. It's 501C, sorry. And that would put the major fundraising pillars in place by the end of December. And with that confidence that I could pay him, I could then pull the trigger with Eric Dennis and say, yeah, but it's a go ahead. He could then focus on making it through January, February, and March. And then once the ground starts thawing, hopefully, to have our question put up the plinths in April springtime for a kind of sort of statue finalizing sometime in spring next year. And that would be absolutely ideal. Yeah, yeah, that would be my preference but obviously there's many other steps before then to take. That is a tight deadline for a ton of Amherst work. I'm sorry. There's a number of commissions that we need to contact and inviting public comment. And December being really challenging to get people volunteers to comment and do this due diligence. I'm a little concerned about that timeline. Lori, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Well, I think the timeline is a little difficult in terms of us being able to meet and discuss this. And as you say, work with whatever other town committees that we need to get approval from as well. But we can certainly discuss what's possible. So we might call a separate meeting for mid-December or early December if, well, we'll talk about that off. So I'm going to say jamborees. Let me, if I'll just finish my thought. If we may have time to get together in early December or mid-December to talk more freely about this and decide what our next steps are, but then getting those steps, everything kind of, all our eyes dotted and teased crossed before the end of the year would be a big challenge. Go ahead, Dara. No, Tom was first. Okay, Tom. Yes, my thought is that if at all possible it would be good for us to try to figure out try to decide today what we think we can accomplish in one more meeting. What outcome do we want at the end of the next meeting? I don't think we've had enough discussion about all of the elements that are on the table for that to happen tonight. I think we need to sit down with this proposal and possibly some more materials that Kat can hand if you're okay with giving us some more materials and go through those and then meet one more time to discuss our questions and problems and then go from there. And that's my opinion. I have one more question for the North Amherst Library. I see the Jones Library. So does that include then the North Amherst Library that is on board for this? Yes, yes, I approached Jones Library who are in charge of North Amherst Library. It was Sharon, the director of Jones Library. What about the North Amherst people? The Amherst Library people who run it? Oh, they're part of Jones Library? The same, but yeah. Every location has a branch kind of thing. Yeah. Really helpful is to give us something in writing saying with the names and contact information of the people that you're saying that support this. That would be enormously helpful and would support the record and make it very much more persuasive. And you can leave those materials with Angela Mills and I can pick them up whenever they arrive and share them with the commission. And then we can all talk about it at a future time to be decided in December. It was early in December as we can all get together. Would that work for the commission? Maybe. I'll try, I don't do that. Yeah, I think it's almost 7.30 now and we have other items to get to. So it's like a plan, Terry, that'd be great. Yeah, I actually did set this meeting for two hours so this is where an appropriate time right now. I think if it would be okay with everybody and I could call it for a vote but I think I'll just talk to you about it. Kat, if you can drop off some more documentation as Jim asked with Angela, when that arrives, Angela will let me know and I'll pick it up and I can make copies for my commission and we can send that out and then we can set a time to talk. Okay. I'll do a Google Doodle. We'll figure out a good date and we'll all get together and talk about it and as soon as we can, that's all we can promise at this stage. I'll have to have enough of a quorum to get together to make any decisions, of course. And we'll have to figure out what our next steps are as a commission to move toward an approval. Jim? And I hope that that will include a copy of the commissioning agreement or the latest draft. Absolutely, yes, I will. I will, no problem. And I'll probably do his lawyer thing. Well, project notes as well with, you know, who I spoke to and the date. That's wonderful. That was so helpful. Yeah, okay. Sorry, my battery's about to die. So... Cool. Thank you so much for your time, your thoroughness and your excitement. This is a joyful project and we're excited to even have it proposed to us. And it is a little, it is unique and different and that does expect us to bend in ways we haven't yet, but that's good for us too. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate your time and hearing me out this evening and whatever happens, it was a pleasure talking with you all. So thank you very much. Thank you. We appreciate your time too. Thanks so much, Kathy. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Okay, everyone, that was exciting. It's a new thing. Yeah. I haven't done this before. Very complicated. Very complicated. And it was hard not to make a really bad joke because it's like the carts before the horse. That's a good one though. Yeah. No, but I mean, I think her enthusiasm and her own interest in it is, of course, great, but it's the precedence over the can of worms. Yeah. For us. And also, how could all these other people have had so much to do with it and nobody sent anybody to us? Well, I did get, I mean, I did get an email back in late September or October and I talked to Paul about it and we did have it on our October meeting, but we didn't have time to go through it. And then this late November meeting kind of took a lot of time away from November too. So timing is tricky. It's really hard for us all to get together and chat about this. I think this puts a real, shines a real light on our need to get our, you know, mission and rules together. Yes. I absolutely agree. Really true. Yeah. I so, I so agree with that. Like I said, it's gonna, it's gonna make us need to bend in ways we haven't before. And I think that is very good for strategic planning and growing. So I'm grateful for that. But here, Sherry, I don't understand what you're saying when you say it's gonna make us have to bend. We haven't had, we haven't encountered this before as public art as far as I've read. We don't have existing policies for many things in this commission. If we wanted to get somebody permission to put a mural up, we don't have a mural policy. I mean, there's so much that public art hasn't done and we are supposed to be setting policy. So there's a lot of work we need to do to get this stuff so that we can point to this and say, this is the process so that we don't seem to have favorites, you know? Well, and so that all those other entities that are associated with the town would understand that you do have policies. Yes, but the next person who comes up and says, I wanna put a hat on a caterpillar, you know, here's some money. They'll say, well, but you did this, you did this horse. I wanna hat on a caterpillar. And so, yeah, we have to figure this out. And that's a very small timeline to do a lot of work. And that's a lot. I don't think it can be done anywhere close to the timeline she's talking about. No, I think her timeline is a bit unrealistic, but I love her enthusiasm. I just don't think we can do it. I think we ought to have a policy, I'm sorry. I think we should have a policy about getting things and writing. That was a wonderful sales lady. Yeah. But I didn't see anything that you could really. Well, we have this documentation that should be. It's a good start. It's a good start. I would like to move on though. We do have some more, quite a lot to cover. So thank you so much for your attention and your great questions. I think she got an earful. I think she maybe surprised that we actually are gonna be doing our due diligence. I think we did a good job there. Okay, so let's move on. I'm gonna close this one down and stop my share. Okay, here we are. I like the featured artist. You kind of, they're pretty good. Well, I'll get back to it. I'll get back to it. Don't get too excited. All right, let's, I'm gonna bring this one up. Windows everywhere. I'm gonna share this screen. I think, nope, this screen. I love technology. Here we are. Do you all see this? Yes, I will be the minute. All right, I'm gonna do, do, do, do. Here we go. Here we are, agenda. Okay, so let's move on down. First of all, approval of October minutes. Did everybody get a chance to take a look at October's minutes? Yes. Yes. Do we have any changes to these, these, here we are. Do we have any changes or suggestions for changes to this, the minutes? Dara? First part, first line. My name is Barbara Jackson on the commission, not wire. Yes. Oh dear, that's a terrible type of, I apologize. See it on my name up there. You would read, yeah, fix the name there. What did I do? Oh my goodness. Then all the way down to making it public, I don't think that the word nice is a good way to describe a professional document in this case. And I did not, I didn't really, I'm not, I withheld my approval from that. I didn't vote on it. So I think you'd probably say one abstention. So you could say, yeah, you could say five voted yes, there was one abstention, yeah. What are you talking about? Under making it public, which I have up right here, if you want to say the chair drafted an email, just not get rid of nice. I agree on that. When we talk about things that we're voting for, we need to actually- I'm not supposed to say nice. I don't know what that was supposed to be, but I don't use the word nice. We need to, when we talk, when we vote, we need to have kind of a vote of the numbers. We need to have a record of the numbers. So we should say the commission approved by a vote of one abstention. So we have that recorded. There were five of us according to this present. Yes, if one, two, three, four, five, one. Yeah. Five to one. Yeah. Five to one vote. Four to one. Four to vote vote. Four to one vote. Okay. Anything else here? Let's see. I wonder what I meant. Let me see. Can you go back to the top again? Can you go back to the very top again? Okay. Thank you. Sure. We are down here. Any other changes? Okay. Jim, if you'll make those changes and send another copy and we will approve these for the next meeting. You want to approve them subject to those. We can. Somebody want to make a movement to accept this? Yeah. I'll move to accept them. Okay. Go to favor say aye. Aye. All right. Great. Passes. Fantastic. Just a suggestion. But if you have things like that are typos or minor that you want to send me without sending copies to the rest of the group. And if you catch me doing something gross like getting your name wrong or something and you send me one just to me which doesn't violate the open meeting law. Okay. I'm likely to on my own say whoops and fix it and send out the corrected minutes for approval. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Moving on. Back to our agenda. Okay. Ha, discussion. Co-chair applicants. So as I noted in our last meeting, I am in need of a co-chair. I have been, I'm going to be going back to work. I've got a lot of my play, three kids, et cetera. I presented that. And Tom reached out to me and said that he would be interested in co-chairing for us. So I figured we could kick him out of the room for a few minutes and talk about him. Say nice things about him. Then bring him back in. Is that okay with you? I think you might kick you out. That's fine. Right. I'm going to kick you out. Okay. Hold on. Let's see how I do this. Put you on hold. Is that what I do? All right. I don't know if this is what I do. Wait a minute. He's taking the midst. Oh, I can mute you and stop your video, but I can't stop you from hearing. Can I, but wait, he's taking the minutes. So if he's going to not be here to take, you'll have to take the minutes for a few minutes. It's okay. I'm going to put you on hold. And if it doesn't work, I'll bring you right back. Maybe Tom could just tell us why he would like to do this work in about two sentences. Sounds great. Talk to us. We could just handle the next step. That sounds good. Okay. Yeah, make it two sentences. The first one is. That. I think that. Terry as, as chair. Is doing an awful lot of work. She, she meets with town people, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think there's, there's enough work here to do. So that. Somebody lending a hand to it would be good. That sentence. Number one. Number two. Is that, you know, I volunteered for this commission. And, you know, that it's amounting to an hour. Hour and a half, two hours. A month. Of my time. I got a whole lot more time and expected also to be spending all of my time. Working. On the business of the commission. So I'm very happy and available being retired. To do, to do that work. So that's, that's my campaign pitch. Okay. That's great. Thank you. If you want to kick him out, I figured out how to do it. Okay. How do I kick him? We have to go into executive session because we're just. Discussing the personal qualifications of an input. I was just saying that technology of it. You can just check my law. And what is the executive committee? How's that composed? I'm just looking for the button on zoom. Let me look at the, I didn't know this was coming up. Give me a second. I have to, this is very unusual. And I haven't encountered it before. So tell you what. We asked Tom to go get some water. Yeah. Give us a few minutes because if I kick you out, I don't want to kick you out of the meeting and have you not be able to get back in there. I thought there was a thing where I could put you in the waiting room, but I don't know if I have the ability to do that. I don't think we need much time. Yeah. Just, if you'll just go have some water, we'll go have it. We'll have a little chat. Yeah. About 30 seconds. Sorry. I agree. I got it. I love it. It sounds great. I'm all for it. I don't know. I don't know yet. The trouble is this is going to take me a minute to figure out because this is really different from what I'm used to. Well, do we, well, that's okay. Do we have enough people that do we have to vote on this? And do we have enough people to vote? We have, we have four people that including Tom. And then I move that we. Accept. Tom. Do you know, this last name. Marker. I don't know yet. The trouble is this is going to take me a minute to figure out because this is really different from what I'm used to. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. Do you know this last name. Marker. Marker. To co-chair with you, Terry. The Amherst public arts commission. Okay. Got a second. Yeah. Great. All right. All in favor. Hi. Okay. I think that's fantastic. That passes. I'm thrilled. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I'm going to be very helpful and there's a lot of work coming up. And I think he's got the time for it. And I think that's great. So he'll come back in a minute and we'll give him the good news. Thank you so much. You can just note that we have voted yes. And he has been approved as co-chair. Okay. There was no discussion. So there's no problem with the minutes. Yeah. I will inform Angela when I send her an email later. So. Title on the website. Great. That was easy. Thanks, Lori. Well, I'm thrilled that he's stepping up. That's, that's fantastic. Yeah, I think it is too. I think. I wish I could, I, you know, so I'm thrilled that he has the time and. And the qualifications to do it. Absolutely. Me too. We're going to come back. So what, what's next. Next is. Chair report. I will say I talked to Mikey and Mikey has asked if we can find somebody to help her with a town. Gallery exhibits. And I said that I would mention that at this meeting so we can talk about it. She said either have somebody else take it over or else have a co. A co-coordinator to help her with it. It has become a lot of work. It has become a lot of work. It has become a lot of work. Especially the reaching out to, to new, to artists and finding artists who want to display at town hall has been a lot of work. Yeah. Could this person not be on the commission? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. It does not have to be a person who's on the commission. We actually, I would like to do a call for volunteers. To see if we can get some, some more people who do, do some of the work of the commission who don't need to be voting members. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to do that. I would like to do that in terms from various places. And I would love to. That's something that I would like to, when we were doing the strategic planning at some point, when we have, I know this is a bad time of year to even talk about it, but I would like to do as part of our strategic planning. I would like to figure out new ways to find new people to be part of our commission who don't have to be voting members. And I'll talk about that a little bit more. I talked to Paul about something along those lines earlier. He's back. Tom, welcome back. Congratulations. Welcome. Welcome. You have now the, the new co-chair of the Amherst public art commission. We applaud you and are very grateful for your service. Okay. It's unanimous. It's overwhelming. And there was no discussion. So. Didn't even need to. That made it easy for the, for the minutes. We're all there. I gotta do this. Say you are elected unanimously. That's right. Well done. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I will, I will let Angela know. So we will note your new title on the website. And you and I can talk about ways we can work together and collaborate for projects coming, coming up. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. So moving on to the next thing. I was telling the rest of the other commissioners that Mikey is asking for some more help with the coordination of the town hall gallery. She is. She's struggling. To keep up with the work of not only reaching out to new artists, but also hanging the art. And if we're going to have artist receptions every other month, that is adding more to her, her work. So if, if anybody is so moved to be, to be of help, it wouldn't be a huge job, but it would be really helpful for her to have a co-coordinator. And so we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll think about it and we can reach out to Mikey with any questions. And we can talk about it at the next meeting. Okay. And you also shared that the idea of having volunteers who would. Be helping. Could, could help. Yes. Not, they wouldn't need to be voting members. Yes. That's part of, and I'll bring that up in the chair report, which I'm going to try to go through. Fast. I respect your time. And I thank you so much for giving us extra time this week. Um, this is a time where we invite public comment, but there isn't anybody here. So I'm going to move along. Um, Okay. So my chair report. Um, I have it written in here so we can follow along. Okay. Things that I have done. This week and put this over here. Okay. Okay. Actually, I'm going to take this off sharing. I don't think you need to see this, right? I'm going to stop sharing. Or did I already stop sharing? Can you see my screen right now? Or just. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, um, poetic dialogue. Uh, talk to Camille Camille. He called me two weeks ago and apologize profusely for our ghosting on us. Uh, apparently his studio had a K then and had, um, um, asbestos and asbestos all over his workplace and he has, uh, a very big loss. And so he is working with the lawyer to, uh, try to recover some of his, uh, loss. So he has been a little out of, out of communication. He apologized profusely. Um, I said, of course, no problem. Um, and he told me that he's going to try to be installing Robert Frost on Wednesday. He has to get together with Alan from, uh, public works to, to the help. And then once he has it installed, he send us a photo and, uh, we will, uh, move forward with, uh, getting him a check. So that's how I'd be really great if we could get this up by December 1st. I'd be thrilled. Congratulations. That sounds great. Yeah. It's been a, it's been a, a lot of back and forth. Okay. On the boat with garage gallery. Oh boy. Um, so, uh, Paul Bachman and I have been ironing out a couple of the elements in the contract that are not very solo artist friendly. Um, for instance, uh, requiring artists to have workers compensation. Uh, this is something that's not equitable. Uh, it's not fair. It's not level playing field. Um, so, uh, we talked about it. He talked to both his town lawyer decided that wasn't actually necessary because artists are basically sole proprietors of, uh, un, uh, Businesses that aren't even a business. I can't think of the word. Um, unincorporated businesses. They are, they are solo artists. And so they do not require workers compensation. Uh, we also had to finagle the payment plan. Um, so, um, instead of giving her a lump sum all at once, which would, uh, really mess with her snap benefits. Um, she asked that she be paid in smaller increments. And, um, at first that was problematic. And I think we've ironed that out because again, we need to look at more equitable, equitable ways to work with artists of all economic levels and, and, and et cetera. And we really do need to work on that. So I was happy to do that work. It took a long time. Um, Paul only sees this lawyer once a week. So we had to kind of go back to the table a number of times and then come back at it. And I got Dominique a new contract on November 14th. And I haven't heard back from her yet. I followed up with on the 20th and I haven't heard back yet. And I checked again one time this morning. I'm sorry. The first thing this morning I sent her another email and I gave her a December 1st deadline. And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I told her if we aren't able to get the contract signed the project installed and the payment process by the end of the year, we have to relinquish the funds back to Amherst cultural council. By their dictate. Um, so, uh, anything else on this, on this project, everything's on hold until we were here back from Dominique. But obviously, um, if that gets ironed out, then I will, uh, I've already reached out to Angela to help create a sign. So we're going to have to, um, we're going to have to, um, we're going to have to prepare it. He'll be preparing the grounds, removing the bench from in front, cleaning up the area outside the gallery and installing the sign. And then if we get to that point, we will plan a reception after that. So that's, that's kind of where we are in that. We're waiting for Dominique to give back to us. And then we'll move forward as fast as possible to get this done by the end of the year. It is my hope that we can get it done. If we can't, then we're, we're going to have an empty gallery until we get another artist to do that. Um, the electrify Amherst grant, I filled out the grant paperwork and applied for a $1,700 for the, uh, for the project, which will award three $500 honor honorariums to the artists and $200 for artist supplies. Uh, we would need to choose locations for three transformer boxes with the approval of DPW. Um, the Amherst cultural council has, uh, reached out to us and asked us for some supporting, uh, and we're going to follow up with a letter of support from the town manager. He's very excited about this project. Uh, we've had it done in the past. Uh, and I'll also have a bill for more and send me something in writing, uh, saying that he, he's, he's on board with the project. If we are funded, we can put out a call for artists in the spring. Uh, if we're not, we will have to figure out how we'll fund the project and that's something we can talk about. We have some money, uh, in our coffers and we could also reach out to private businesses, especially businesses where there's a transformer box in front of them and ask if they want to sponsor a box. So that's something we can also do. Uh, if I, if we were going that way and we had boxes in the downtown area, I would work with Gabrielle Gould about that because she works with the downtown businesses. And so she would be my liaison for that. Okay. Any questions on that so far? Any comments? I'm pouring you all the tears. Um, Terry. Yes. Would, would this be, um, repainting boxes that have been painted before? Oh, this. Actually this would actually be moving forward with doing new boxes. New boxes, okay. Yeah. And really there's no guarantee that the boxes we've done in the past will, uh, a box that was just done in like 2018 is gone. And I said, well, actually we're supposed to be notified about this. And Guilford said, oops, we had to replace the box. So we may need to think about that when we're writing up this call for artists and the contract and make sure that it's well known that this really is up to the town to decide how long this box stays online, as is. We can't really say don't change the box because we have to have transformers. Anyway, okay. Moving on. Ah, the James H. Barnhill Gallery reception. I don't know if you've heard of this guy. But he's a trouble maker, but we like him. I heard he's a two-bit photographer. So we have a share of my screen here. So this is the announcement that Angela has put on the website. The lighting of the merry maple and it also includes, hold on here. Where do we go? Where'd it go? Oh, here it is. And then we have this lovely ad on our website. There we are, right there. So December 1st, who's gonna be able to be in attendance? It's after the merry maple lighting and a lot of other things going on downtown is a perfect day for this. 6.30 to 8.30, we'll have food. Mikey and I are gonna have some snacks like last time. I'll have the table and our pretty logo. And, you know, we'll make it look all pretty. We'll be on hand to answer any questions. I've got the old flyers that we're still using because we haven't made a new flyer, which is fine. So will everybody be able to attend? Yes. Yep. Yay. Dara, do you think you can make it? I don't think so. Too bad, we'll miss you. So, Jim, you gonna make it? Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, that's good. Okay. I'm now going to stop sharing and go back to this. Okay. So yeah, join us 6.30 to 8.30 to enjoy the company of your fellow commissioners and town residents to enjoy the photography of James H. Barnhill. Yay. Okay. The next thing on the list here is the leadership of Town Hall Gallery. I talked to you all about that already. Anybody interested, please reach out to Mikey for more questions. Co-chair Murals. Murals. Okay. So we do not have that I can find any policy on how we make murals happen. How do we approve murals? How do we instigate getting murals made? I haven't found anything, any policy that says how we do this. So this is something that public art has a mandate to do, which is to help write public policy for public art. And so that's something we need to work on. So I met with Gabrielle Gould about this, to talk about it. And she first apologized for what happened with our last project we worked with her on and was very apologetic. And I let her off the hook and it was a rough time. But she was very excited about collaborating on future mural projects. It's something she has been trying to bring to town but there isn't a policy. So she's excited. She also can help with fundraising and she can reach out to property owners who might be interested in offering their property as a canvas. Amherst Public Art. In the short term, I'd like to see us work on this policy. And then in the long term, I'd like to talk about logistics of creating a mural as a community project so that it would have a street artist, a mural artist as the supervisor and vision for the project but have the community be able to take part in the actual painting. So that's something that builds community and it builds goodwill and that's something I'm really interested in doing. And our town is interested in doing. So more on that when I talk, I talked about it with Paul as well. And so that's in the works. We've got to talk more about that with our planning. Yes. So I sent you a link to Beyond Walls. I saw that. Yeah. If you looked into it, you'll see that Beyond Walls is a, seems to be a Massachusetts nonprofit located in Lynn, Massachusetts. Yep. They make beautiful murals. Well, it's not just murals. They have a whole mandate to help public art commissions. Other people help them find ways to arrive at policies that they can use in the work. And I think it'd be a good idea if everybody would just look at their mission statement. Okay. It's kind of how it's called Beyond Walls and just Google Beyond Walls, Holyoke. Yeah. Or anything or whatever. Anyway, they've helped people in Fall River, Lowell, Lynn, Holyoke, Chickpea and other places. And I think it's worth using other people's research and experience to get us kickstarted into creating our own. If it's like other people, sometimes that's good. Oh, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. This has already been done. I agree totally. And Beyond Walls, this has been on my radar for a while. Policy's out there. We just need to take it and make it our own. Jim. There are some provisions of the Copyright Act, which we need to be aware of if we're going to have murals put on people's buildings. Yes. So I just wanted to flag that as a point. Okay. Lori. I remember at some point in the past, someone had approached us about a mural that exists already that isn't just repair and was asking about responsibility and the town's responsibility for us in this commission to care for a mural that needed repair. I don't know what happened to that. I remember that. I don't know about that. Was that in one of our? I think that came up early on when I was first on the commission. So I think that's something we have to think about in terms of when we discuss the policy. Because murals over time do fall into disrepair and how we handle that. And some are created to be short-term pieces too, like wheat paste, et cetera. So we do have to, when we bid out a project, we do need to think about the longevity of it and what the caretakers look like. And just as we do with our other projects that are public art, we need to find out what the artist's responsibility is for upkeep if there is one and what the town will pay to upkeep. That is all part of the contract writing. So those are really good points, thank you. Anything else on murals? I'm excited. We have a lot of people in town who want murals. And Gabrielle shared with me a project that she tried to kickstart in downtown. She had funding for it and an artist and community art all set up to help with painting and make it a community project. But then she couldn't get the approval through the town. And so I think just like we talked about with this for want of a nail, we need policy. So anybody, Dara, if you'd like to look into like getting some of this policy together from Beyond Walls, if that's something you'd like to work on, I would be happy to work on that with you. I'm excited about that too. Yeah, there's a lot of information just easily found. Yeah, there's some stuff and send it to you. Great. Was there a reason that the other mail project didn't go through? I'm curious. Yes, the design committee, is there a design committee? I don't know enough about Amherst politics. I believe it was the design committee of Amherst at the time disapproved of it because it was too colorful. It was a caterpillar like Eric Karl caterpillar, very colorful. And it was kind of set up as a paint by number kind of thing. So people of all ages in the community could come and help with painting it. But the design board deemed it too colorful and they didn't think it represented the town. So they just did not approve it. Who is the design committee? At the time, I really don't know. That's something that I am not aware of right now. But we could find out about that. Yeah, and then again, that would be part of the steps of creating Amherst, sharing out who we talked about. There's a public art commission and a design count. I think we need to... Yeah, I agree, Dara. I think we need to find out who that is that voted on that because assuming that they would have a vote on anything then, like the, you know, for want of a nail. Right. Yeah. Right. So that was interesting to me. So again, this is something I don't know. So... No, but that's kind of fascinating how there can be like a negative, one negative vote that ends a whole vision, which is real in terms of real life. So... It happens, yeah. Especially in towns of this size. You know, you have one committee, one person even, one zoning person who doesn't like the color blue. But you would think that that would have been the public art commission vote. Yeah. You would have thought of the vote. Yeah. It was something about a design board, but I don't know anything about it. So I found it interesting to hear about that. Part of our policy project, I think, is going to have to be to figure out who are the other players lurking around the edges. Exactly. And do those two exist? Exactly. So, and you call it the design council or committee? I didn't catch the exact, she just said the design, you know, I'm going to look it up. I really don't know. I can look it up too. Don't, don't. Yeah. I don't know the design board. Is that, is that it? I'll call it that and then talk to the people. Design review board. I think that's it. I'm looking at it now. It's, their overview is to preserve and enhance the town's cultural, economic and historical resources. So I think that they deemed it too youthful and not represent the older residents and Amherst kind of thing. That's my children. So they would. So presumably they would need to also approve this for want of a nail. Well, that's a great question. I really don't know if this came from the BID, you know, they might have a different, different criteria, different, different systems. I have no idea. I want consistency in this town, right? We all want consistency. We want to know what the policies are and so that we can all follow them. You know, So the BID could end a public art project? I don't think they could. They're a business entity. Yeah. But the design board as part of, is a town board. Well, I'm assuming, yeah, that's what I'm curious about because I'm assuming they were wanting to, they had someone who was willing to have a mural on the outside of their, you know, building. That's Gabrielle's job. She's the one who. Private owner. And then you go to the town to get, you know, design board has to approve that, you know, they can do this to this building and then they say no. Yeah. Yeah. So that's going to have to be one of the steps that we follow as well. When we, when we just come up with murals, you know, we'll have to go before. Maybe the design board and this commission need to talk to each other. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. I think it's a great idea. So we'll put that on our how to make a mural list. Talk to the signboard, get to know them, see what they're all about. Yeah. All right. Good questions, guys. The last thing on my list, I think, yes, is I have had a conversation with Paul about strategic reorganizing. And this is a discussion I brought up a few months, a few months ago when I had some ideas regarding reorganizing the structure of Amherst Public Art to involve more voices from our community. I feel like we are too, I lost the word. Small. Not diverse. Not diverse, but we're also not talking outside of ourselves. What is the word? I lost silo. For insular. Siloed, insular. I feel like Amherst Public Art is very siloed, very insular. And I would like to find a way to involve more voices from our community. So this morning I shared with him some details on how Arlington evolved. I've worked with Arlington for four years in their arts and culture. And they came up with a structure of commissioners that represent different interests around town. They have a school council member, a town planner, a member from the business sector, a member from the public library. And those people are actual members of the Art Commission. And so they are town employees that have a say. So they bring more voices into art. And I feel like that would be a great way for us to have more diverse voices, as well as having appointments from our town manager. So I brought that up before Paul. He was excited about that idea, and he's asked me to work on a proposal to bring before the town council in January or February, identifying others in town that we think might be interested in joining this effort. So we're in the baby stages of this reorganizing, but it's something that Paul is interested in doing. And that would be probably joining the Amherst Cultural Council with the Amherst Public Art, possibly some others, just to kind of have one unified organization that has similar missions. So that's something that we've just begun talking about. And that will go back to our strategic planning when we finally get to that. Yeah, can we see notes about that as it develops? Absolutely, yeah. I will send you, I think it won't violate any public law to send you the emails, or at least the text from the emails and conversations I've had with Paul so that we can all be on the same page. And I'd really like to hear your feedback and we'll have conversations about it in future meetings. I just wanted to kind of put it out there and put it before Paul. Yes, Jim. As the resident pain in the neck, if you do that, and then you discuss them, they have become a public record and they have to be attached to the minutes. And if I were the sender of an email, I would want to know in advance that was going to happen and then agree to it. Right. I've told Paul that any conversations we have, I would share with the commission, of course. So we'll see. No, that's going to be attached to our minutes and put up on the website. Probably. Would it be sufficient for Terry to just summarize at some point rather than quote the... Yeah, I kind of just did. So I think that is okay. Yeah, summarize it. Then you do that orally or if you do it in writing, then they'll attach the writing to the minutes. That works great. And then you don't have to worry about this problem, which might not be a problem, but I like to make sure I'm not, if I can, not irritating other people or even unintentionally or in any way. I think the stage that we're at is just informal conversation about, but I think by giving a summary of that should be okay. But any future things that we do that would be written down, we will have to follow, of course, the mandate from the public. Well, the difference between what you said first and now is that you were going to use a document in the discussion in a meeting of the Public Art Commission. And the minute you use a document in a meeting, it has to be attached to the minutes. Right. So I think I will not do that in this case, but in the future conversations we have on this subject, I will make sure that that's okay with Paul before I put anything in a document that I'll share with you. Does that work? Yeah, that works. I think that's great. Okay, great. Thank you. Any other questions about anything that I've brought on with my chair report? Just make the comment on the reorganization that, you know, they're kind of, it is inevitably going to move in two directions. One is what you've presented here, the expansion of participants and the engagement, etc. The other, which I predict is going to be quite difficult, is going to be the boundary work with some of the other groups that we've mentioned even this evening, you know. It's one thing to reorganize ourselves, but it's another thing to reorganize the, you know, out beyond our strict boundaries. Right. And I think we're in urgent need of that too. Right. Have you all read a book called The Chimp Paradox? No. Well, it's a great book. It's kind of, it sounds like fake psychology, but it really isn't. And it's based upon the territorial nature of human beings. Yeah. How they will defend their territory if they perceive it to be attacked, like a gorilla or a monkey who wants to keep the bananas for themselves. Well, I think Dara's question earlier this evening about, you know, why did we, I'm putting words in her mouth, but paraphrase to say, why did we come into this kind of late? Right. It's like, you know, are we on anybody else's radar? Right. Are we significant enough in their view? Or are they confused about what our role is? People are confused. Yeah. Yeah. And one of our problems is we get very confused with the, with the cultural council. They don't know which one to go to. Yeah. And when we were at the block party, not a single person said, oh, you're the public art group. It's very little recognition. Hey, that's nice. Right. Well, I think one of the problems is we don't have a budget. And if we merge with the Amherst cultural council, doesn't that get solved? They're the bananas. That's right. Right. And so if you don't have any money, people don't take you seriously unfortunately. Right. It's kind of true. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to have a budget. That's kind of, what I'm moving toward Jim is, is this whole reorganizing strategic planning so that we can finally get on the board and ask for a budget. That's, that's my plan. Give us light. Let's make sure that Paul finds out soon enough and diplomatically enough about what he might be getting into by, by expressing his support for reorganization. I was, I was brazen in my comfort, my first conversation with him. I said, this is my, my ambitious plan and he did not run away. So he listened and then he came, he came to, actually, I think Jim was there at the artist reception, at the artist reception last month. He came up to a couple of us and Mikey was there. I said, hey, what do you think about it? What if we, you know, what if I put together Amherst Cultural Council and Amherst Public Art? What do you think about that idea? And I'm like, God, that came from me. I mean, we all said, yeah, that sounds like a great idea, Paul. So, yeah, I think he's excited about the idea. It would raise a lot of, it would be a lot of work, you know, a lot of conversations, a lot of policy writing, but it's, I think it'd be exciting. All right, we've had a productive meeting. Does anybody have any other business we did not expect they want to talk about today? Well, I made this meeting 6.30 to 8.30 just in case, because I knew that that for want of a nail was going to take some time. So I appreciate you being here longer and we're at an hour and 40 minutes now. So thank you very much. If we are done. So I apologize for having really feeling pretty bad. I can't believe you stuck in there, Jim. Thank you. Yeah, because it seemed pretty important. You didn't feel good. I'm glad you're here. Thank you. You'll feel better soon. Thank you. Yeah. Get better. You got to get better by Friday. Whoops. Yeah, right. You have to. I guess I've one question would be for when we're meeting next and to try to wrap up, which I don't think is going to be simple at all, this how to respond to that for want of a nail. Yeah. I think she needs to give us some documentation. And once she drops something off with Angela, then we can we can get it and disperse it to the rest of the commission until I can go ahead and send out a Google Doodle and figure out a good time for all of us to meet. And I'll just put dates starting this week, going up until mid December, past that it's tricky for anybody to meet because you've got a ton of holidays and kids milling around. So, and, you know, vacations and people traveling. Yeah, I don't be able to respond by the end of December. And I think there there's some. Yeah, just dive into it. But I think there's some I love the idea, but I think there's some real complicated things for us to be able to approve it. That's that precedence that I don't think we can do. Yeah. I think the time frame, I think, is just really hard. Well, I don't want to feel like I've been steamrolled. Right. Yeah, plus, plus we have nothing in writing, which bothered me immensely. And the other thing is I spotted like two or three potential really serious issues. And this is did you all right. And, you know, I don't think I suspect, I shouldn't say that I suspect whatever we get from her is not going to address all of the various things that could come up. Which is why you have to find outside, and, you know, outside organizations to make sure you get their approval. The issues that comes up is that when a citizen offers to pay for everything, it doesn't give them the right to decide what the what the thing is. Right. Or the schedule. Yeah, we've got concerns. Yeah, that's generosity is beautiful, but it has tempered with thoughtfulness about realities in terms of public things. You're absolutely right, Dara. I agree 100%. And it is as if where she's offering work of art that she would, because she's almost offering like here's a finished thing. And we're going to and she's going to donate it to the town and then we're responsible for this. And so there's this whole idea of what works, what, how do we, what do we accept? What do we not accept? And public art, I don't think this really fits in with public art. This is really tricky, but it's on public property. It is. But in terms of how public, what our criteria would be for how we decide what we place as public art, it just doesn't fit. Right? I mean, it's not going out for, you know, it's not going out for various artists too. There's been no call to the phone. No call. There's no call. There's no public call. It's for anybody else to do it. Right. The other thing that bothers me immensely, frankly, is that someday it's going to rust and it's going to be have to be removed. And then is that going to. Yeah, so we have concerns. We already have concerns before we even get people work. Yeah. And again, I love the generosity of it. I love the artistry of it. It's very thoughtful, but we have concerns. So I'm going to, we're going to wait and see what she can get. I guess we'll send out a quick question on it. If the library decided they wanted to do it and they did it, would we have to approve? Well, there is no have to. Just like the design board. We need our approval to do it. Or could the library just put that up to me? I don't believe because it's on public property, it would have to go through a vetting system. It would have to go through us and then to the town manager. Well, I think that something went up with the Jones library that didn't come through here. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And something went up in the Kendrick part that didn't come through here. Yeah. There's a lot that's gone up. There's a lot of inconsistency. And that's what I'm really curious. And being new to town, I'm curious about that, you know. And where do we not align? I think it's better to be a good idea to have this commission spend some time thinking about the issues that are being brought up by all these questions before you merge with the cultural council. Oh yeah, absolutely. It already has a lot of issues that they have to do. And they become that money, like Jim said, they have to have policies that are clearer than this body. Right. But us being a bigger organization with more involvement from town officials, they would have to listen to our voice more so that on policy. Nobody has to listen to us. That rule you have to follow. The rule I've learned is being a lawyer is nobody has to listen to me. Yeah. No one has to listen to me. Yeah, I think the quality of the questions that we ask in the next couple of months will have a lot to do with persuading people that they should listen to us. I take Jim's point entirely. Nobody has to. Right. But if we start making a little ruckus, which we're proposing to do from our quarter, I think we'd be getting off on the right foot if we raise some enough questions so that everybody from the town manager on through the other organization say, oh, yeah, we didn't think of that. Good thing we had public art. We'll, you know, let's hear some more. Right. What we need to do is come across as being helpful. Yeah. Just distinguish from your blood. There you go. I don't want to just be a roadblock. I want to be helpful in setting up how we do this in this town. For me, even though I've lived here a long time, I don't really know which things in town are, you know, which things belong to, you know, where the purview of the public art commission and what is up that is not. Right. So to me, I don't have the answer to that question. And I guess it will take some research. I don't know if there's someone in town, in the town. Angela Mills has a lot of information on that kind of thing. She's very helpful there. Okay. The fact is we don't have a lot of legacy of information on this commission. You know, we don't have longstanding members. So we don't, we have to find those answers ourselves. And that's the thing. We need a list of sacred cows. Okay. Well, I'm sorry to bring all of that out. No, no, don't be sorry ever. No, thank you so much for the thoughtful conversation, everybody. Okay. I'll be sending out a Google Doodle as soon as I can to try to get a next meeting to do our due diligence. Okay. So thank you so much for your time. Have a great couple of days until I talk to you soon. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Oh, I should be saying we should do the whole move to, move to adjourn. I called to adjourn. Is there a second? We all, we all agree. We have a vote. Do you got to go to an effort to vote? Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All right. So moved. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Good night.