 Я говіритиму українською на прохання організаторів. Після цієї короткої перерви, поки ви всі швиденько всідаєтеся, ми розпочинаємо дискусійно частино сьогоднішньої ассамблеї. І розпочати її я б хотіла... Я спершу представлюся. Я Анастасія Платонова, я культурна критикиня і редакторка. Я модеруватиму серію дискусій однією з яких буде ця дискусія. Я б хотіла розпочати цю дискусію з подяки. Я хочу подякувати організаторам ассамблеї за фантастичну організацію програмування і корування цієї події та кораторська група, яку ми бачили на початку сьогоднішнього робочого дня. Зробила неймовірну роботу, навіть побіжно маючи до неї відношення, як модераторка серії дискусій. Я бачила, які огром роботи вони зробили, аби ця фантастична, правда, чудова аудиторія тут сьогодні зібралася. Я дуже щаслива тут бачити багато облич. Частину з яких я не бачила кілька місяців попри те, що ми живемо і працюємо в Україні, але зараз розкидані по світу. Я також хочу подякувати спікеркам, які зробили промову і в першій частині цього дня, зокрема Катерині Ботанові. Тому що, слухаю чекаціону промову, я щас думала, що наскільки це резонує, наскільки те, про що не писала Катя Збазеля, резонує із тим, як це відчувається з Києва, Харкова, Львова і решти місця... Катерина Яковленко каже, що футури є сьогодні. Футури є сьогодні з нас. Ми не можемо відпочинуватися. Ми не можемо думати, що щось більше важливе буде. І військові військові зробили так many things і військові зробили, що ми не можемо відпочинувати нічого, ми маємо робити всі на час. І також, ми маємо початкувати футу, що ми військові зробили зробиль, Вв Ent crim? Ти смачrin strategies з써 Cuban plans, We are going to speak about how to create new reality for our work, how to find some support for us, how to overcome the pain that we've been living in for more than ten months. And I think that this hour and a half talks will be not sort of a therapy for us, but we will be able to discuss how the variety of our experience can be so similar, that we can understand each other, and how these skills that we are obtaining so quickly during these ten months, how these skills can help us become a set of tools, some base for new visions for strategic approaches, because in order to build and rebuild Ukraine and future Ukrainian culture, we will need a lot of new tools. And so we have quite a lot of challenges that we have not faced before. And so we have asked wonderful speakers that I'm going to introduce in a minute to prepare a very first introductory speech for a few minutes, so that you will be able to understand the experience that these people had during these last months, and so you will be on the same page with them before we will move on to the main discussion. So I will introduce speakers one by one, Valeria Shilor, who is a curator. Yes, good afternoon. Can you hear me? Let's try. Yes, I think we can hear you. Hello. Thanks a lot for inviting me. My name is Valeria Shilor. I'm a specialist in culture and I'm from the Crimea. I have come to Kiev in 2012 due to annexation of the Crimea, and then I had to move to Berlin since March. Now I'm living in Berlin. And how much my experience has changed. In Kiev I worked in Pinchuk Arts Center on different positions. Then I left it and started working as a teacher in Kiev Academy of Media Arts. And then for two years I worked as an editor of online arts looker. And on that night from the 23rd to 24th of February we had a cyber attack on the whole of our server, and so it stopped functioning for a few months. And right at that moment I thought it's sort of a ritual moment, because on the one hand we were among these 4% that you mentioned before, but at that very moment when the full-scale vanishing started, almost all projects that made sense before, they just lost their sense, we felt it all. Yes, and in order to continue any project we have to rethink and we have to adjust to new reality. And we had a few texts that we could not just publish them, because we didn't have this resource. But even though if we would publish it, we understood, we felt that it just didn't make sense because it was written before the war. And I think that this is a feeling that we all experienced. And that's why it's so important to do everything on time. Yes, we know it on practice that we have to do everything on time. And we had so many mental issues afterwards. I think every one of us has such mental issues. Even if someone left abroad before the war, this whole war influenced every one of us. And we had to rethink so many things. Yes, and we have to do rethinking work on time too. And I think that I won't tell a lot about how my practice has changed and what I'm doing in Berlin now. And now I'm finishing my work in National Gallery in Berlin. We prepared one exhibition, now we are preparing another one. But basically it's very challenging to work with the Western European context. It's very challenging for us, and especially in Germany. We all know that they have left views quite often. And it's not very easy, but it's very interesting. And it's very interesting to think how we can be heard better. And one point I would like to mention is about the complex of our values. Just right before the full-scale invasion started, I think that we realized that we have another value. And we could learn from so many people who have worked with the European institution before. But due to this war, we understood that we are not worse than anyone. We are not worse than Western specialists. Yes, I think that a lot of people share your experience, and we will speak in more detailed way about your experience of migration, about working experience in such projects when teams are in different countries. And now I would like to invite Ms. Valentina, who is also a curator. Can you hear me? Yes. I would like to start with my testimony, too. I am experiencing this Russian-Ukrainian war since 2014. My mom is quite famous around in the Ukrainian creative world. She was occupied in Donbass in 2014. And she died in 2019 at the checkpoint. And a person from the Donetsk People's Republic called to me and said to me that you have to take her body because she died at the checkpoint. So I am leaving this war for quite some time. And I can say that during some time my mom just proved to me that this is her own decision to stay on the occupied territories. And some people thought about me that I'm a bad daughter because I didn't take my mom from those occupied territories. But when the war started, I did the same. I was sitting in a bomb shelter when the war started. And I just thought that Russians are depriving me of my time because I was sitting in a shelter and didn't do anything. And then I realized that I'm depriving more and more of my time because we don't have electricity. And when I told to my partners that we didn't have electricity for 14 hours, I said to them that I'm much slower at the moment because I do not have power supply. And then I realized how we can measure time. We can measure it in material aspects. I mean, everything that I created for 20 years, it can be valued in financial aspects. And when Russians were around two kilometers from us, and I just was looking at my archive of my works. And I started packing my works to the seller because it's my time. And I understood that if I lose this archive, I will lose myself. I will lose what I did, what I have done for these 20 years. And I found a way to preserve my archive. And basically I had sort of a bravery of thinking. And what I invented, I looked at my archive and I thought, I can see archive as some plants. Sometimes we can pick up a part of a plant and put it into water. And this plant is going to be rooted in this water and have some roots. And it will be the same big plant sometime later. So I decided to take a few of my works and send them to the West Europe, to the institution that I trust. So basically I brought 70 years of my time here. And yes, so you're preserving your time. Yes, I can say where we have our time. And what should we do with that? Even if we have power supply again, and I do not believe that we will rebuild the infrastructure quite quickly. But if we do something in the wrong way, but we do not understand where we have problems, we are also wasting our time. We are eating up our time. And I'm in a hurry, because you told me that I do not have enough time. But what's wrong with us? I understand that we do not have very good arts education. And I realized that since the full scale invasion, I had so much work. It means I had so much money as never before. And I received it because I had a network. I knew the language. I had my Western education. So I started sharing it with my elderly colleagues, painters. But not all painters in Ukraine have the same situation, because they didn't have the opportunity to study abroad, as I was able to do. So this arts education is something that I would like to speak about. And I have to say it. Just remember my words. Arts education is so important. And it's a big problem. It's very important to speak about this now. Wladimir Yomolka mentioned that something ingenious that we cannot bring to the future. And I think that our arts education is not real, because it's our heritage from the Soviet times. We know that this is part of our colonial history. And this war is also colonial. So we cannot leave it as it is. Thank you, Valentina, for your wonderful speech. Thank you for mentioning these challenges. And I will ask about you, about many challenges. And what challenges do you think are key ones? I think that you touched upon all layers from the bottom to top. I think that we will return to all of your challenges. Our next speaker is curator and arts manager, Natalia Kotsubińska. Natalia is online with us today. Good afternoon. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you and see you. I can see only a part of you, so it's difficult for me to concentrate. But still, I will move on. Good afternoon to everyone. My name is Katychana Kotsubińska. I am a specialty in arts. And for the last few years, I have been working as an independent curator and author of texts. Before this, I was related to working in two institutions, the Museum of Russian Arts. Now it's Kiev Art Gallery and Pinchuk Arts Center. I was a curator of a research platform. And with this platform, we have studied the history of contemporary Ukrainian art. We published books. And for the last two years, I think that my life was more related not to Kiev, but to such places as Kharkiv and Nipro. And in the beginning of February, I started teaching in Kharkiv Academy of Design Art. But of course, it was interrupted by war. And so my teaching activity in Korea is no longer developing. Unfortunately, to my regret. And for the last few years, I cooperated with the Center of Contemporary Art in Nipro. And I think that this is a very good innovative center. And it's a very good initiative. And even today, despite the war, they keep working. They have their arts activity. And they made this institution into a social hub in work conditions. And we have worked together with them and we were to open up an exhibition in June. And this exhibition was very important to me. Conversations in Ukraine. It's a very interesting project of a person who interviews children from six to ten years on different aspects. On the basis of these interviews, we created audiovisual installations. And for me, it was very important to do this project in different cities of Ukraine. These are seven cities that we chose. And these cities have borders with Russia, some of them with Poland, with Hungary. So this was a research project that had to represent the voices of children. And we had to present the way our society is functioning in children's eyes. And unfortunately, this project was not implemented because we have worked on it so much. But in December, we were able to prepare the first part. We have recorded the eight voices of people from NIPRO. So these were children of internally displaced people who moved to NIPRO. But now the context has changed radically. And it's a very interesting phenomenon. And we have recorded the voices in the city, which is almost at the front line. NIPRO is so close to the front line. Basically, we presented the condition of the society two months before the war. And I think that if answering the question, what changed, how much our practice changed. I think that it changed drastically and during the first months of war, we had such a feeling that I was just speechless. Because I couldn't realize what art can do in these conditions. But I think that quite a lot of us were invited. We started giving speeches. We started taking part in discussions. We were invited quite a lot to different events. And on the one hand, it's very nice because we can talk to people. We can present the Ukrainian art. But at the same time, it's understandable that such interest to Ukraine is due to the war. And we understand that this interest will not be sustainable. It will not last long. It will last until we are in media. So if you are speaking about challenges of the society, so we have to think how to make this interest stable so that this interest will not be limited to Ukrainian nationality. So it will not relate to Ukrainian origin. If you allow, we will move to these aspects later. And I would like to support our previous speaker. Yes, the arts education was on the law level. And now the same problem remains. It was a metaphor that the lack of education is the biggest problem as much as quality this might sound. But when it comes to competitiveness of the Ukrainian culture, when it comes to the war time, we are quite limited to this sphere. So this is why it is necessary for us to develop education. And when it comes to the third question, we'll come back to you. But I hope you can hear me. Thank you so much, Tanya. I think we'll dive deeper into the discussion. I want to ask the audience how they relate to your questions and we'll get back to it when it comes to projects and practices, how you managed to reform your institution and projects connected with registering the oral testimonies in the occupied areas. Another point voiced by Tanya is the representation of Ukraine in the world. We can really do in the short term and in the close future. When it comes to being Ukrainian and in the Ukrainian context, that right now we have the huge... Now I'd like to introduce you to Stanislav Torino, great artist and his experience of ten months of the war. I'll sit here. Welcome everyone. I'll turn on the timer to stop just in time. Hello everyone. My name is Stanislav Torino. I came here to the residence right from Kiev. Nine years ago I had a psychiatric episode. I spent some time in the hospital. So when the war started, the first one and a half months, it was nothing unusual for me, to be honest. So I revisited my episode. I knew what to do. Something similar happened to me before. Right now I don't paint. I work as a curator for people with a Down syndrome and without this syndrome. I decided to stay in Kiev and I was preparing to this phase of the war since December. I participated in medical courses. I was reading pamphlets. Every single week we were discussing with my friends where to go, what to do when the war starts. So we had a plan. Even when Kiev were to be occupied, we would decide to stay there. How did my life change? Well, it did. It changed not through the internal issues in Ukraine, but due to the fact that everything around changed. Everybody understands what I'm talking about. Thank God half of my contact book in my phone is alive, but half of my contact list is unavailable because they are outside of Kiev, or they move here and leave the city and come back. On the eve of the war, I wrote to Maxim Kovalchuk, a curator who was the co-organizer of three exhibitions in Kiev. So on the eve I wrote him an email. We are experiencing emergency states, so I decided not to finish the email because maybe I'll write him, I'll finish the email the next day. It won't be a problem after all. Ну, а власне, коли це вважається на те, що ми можемо робити в футі, ми можемо робити більше. Але вважаю, що це було таке, що у нас вважаються на футболі. Я відправився до відеоцьому відеоцьому відеоцьому. Це Сошенка, Т.33. Ми говорили багато інсвідувачів, ми бачили, що ми бачили, щоб зробитися, що ми бачили, і я бачила, що це було вважаюто, що вважаються на футболі. Бо я вважаю, що я вважаю, що я вважаю, що я вважаю, що у мої nine years of experience in the hospital I know very well the nurses, the doctors and even the head of the unit. I help at the site and translate. What's interesting right now. I support everybody, I don't want to talk too much in details about this, but when it comes to Ukraine, we lack specialists charitable, when it comes to inclusivity, and lastly I would like to elaborate that the whole Ukraine is a kind of a country of disability, in a sense. When it comes to coming back to any kind of archive, I'll speak in easy language. I will use easy language with people who are mentally ill, Ілл, тому що це лінізація, що вони розуміють. Такі питання мають екзистенціальний природ, тому що люди в цих киатриків, вони вже готові вважати ці, тому що вони вважають ці вважати всіх. Ви не знаєте, що ці вважати ці вважати? Я вважаю, що це дуже интересно, що люди з культури та артів, які бач prematurely are better fit to be facilitator in difficult situations and circumstances. Я думаю, це на високу та цінка,baho that picture. Тому хочу споговорити Дарія Кузмич, артів, хто просто був на сцені. Пожалуйста, пісній жін. Доброго учаса, т którym ви можете дити? Так. Доброго учаса, мене name is Daria Kuzmich. Крімто ось дMostaBegin. Як вважаєте щодку? У цьому сліцю ви можете початкуватися і початкуватися. Ні, дякую. Ось, ми не треба крикаю. Дякую. Я є артистом, і в сьогоднішній сьогодні я живу, ліцяно, за бодерами між Берлін та Київ і Віллініс. У 2015 році я був до Берлін для Rakita я не був не про між Берлін,How9Jing Зараз, зі мами ми організовували колаборативну експлуатію «Текстил». Зараз у феврорі я вийшов до Австрия, тому що в сприні я вийшов. Я зробив це в деталі, тому що це вийшов у контакті з нашого дискаціону. Треск, 20 кілометрів з Віні. Віні вийшов до найбільшого центру рефюджістів у Австриі. Все рефюджістів у Австриі вийшов до цього центру. Загалом, це вийшов, що це вийшов, тому що я вийшов до Австрия, вийшов до віні, тому що вийшов до цього центру рефюджістів у Австриі вийшов до цього центру рефюджістів у Австриі. Звичайні челленджи для української культури. Я хотіла говорити про це. Я вимагаюся на всі інші спеки, що предпевні спілки мають говорити про іншого, коли виймається інклюзивація і часу. Це дуже логічна, тому що я працюю з цієї місця. І, звичайно, едукція. І я знову згадаюся до того, що Аліфтіна знову знову знову. І, так, у нас є катастрофична ситуація у української культури. І я можу говорити більше про Київ, цей весь систем, що культури може бути лише в іншому спілку чи знову знову, який я бачився, після року. І один з найбільшими питаннями зараз є, як бачити наші конечні, як бачити ці люди, хто знову згадався українською, і не бачити, що якомусь знову знову знову знову, але це просто нова експеренція і знову знову знову знову чи знову знову знову знову знову зрово знову або знову знову знову знову. І їго disco Verbando существених Italia Відвідуватися до України і відбуватись. І так, це дуже інтересні еспекти у мене. І я хотіла відповідати, що у першому році, я відповідала, що я хотіла відвідувати до моїх країн. І зараз я в Києві. Я не працюю виза до Германії, але я не буду працювати. Так, це все для сьогодні. Дякую, Даша. І я дуже впевнена, що ви розумієш так сильно, ці щось, що я впевнаю. Так, ви маєте про інтеграцію професіалів. Це дуже важлива, якщо ми хочемо здаємося, якщо ми хочемо здаємося новий модель. Так, ми здаємося про це, але для інтеграції, це важливі має бути згодження, що наша професія, відважно від емоціональній експеренції, і уриний партнер на нашому дискусію Тереса Барабаш, що є з нас воно. Ми можемо вас з'їхати і здаємося, Також, Флори, я є у Санімані, яка пейнтери віфу з Країними, і я працювала з фабриками, з аудио-візіальною артами. На 25 фабрів, мій сон і дій залишився, і я залишив мої соні, сьогоднішній, сьогоднішній, сьогоднішній. Ті мої соні, і мої соні, хто залишився з фабриками, тоді мої соні бували 5 сонів, і вони бували просто хайти чогось з цієї ворони, але вони випадалися бити для України. Я був так випадати на них, і зараз я рада бути з них, з моїми сонами. Залишився з нас, знаємо, що вони живі. Мій сон і я вперше залишився з фабриками в Лублін. Залишився до Балтиксі, залишився до Австрії, залишився до Полін. І зараз я маю можливість створюватися за 1 годину у Нашній Академії у Австрії, у Парії. Це дуже важливий для мої сон, тому що він тоді 5 сонів, і він залишився з такими країни, з такими місцями, і він не був таке експеримент, і я випадував, що російські депривували нас у час. Мій сон залишився з 3 сонів, він залишився з францю, і на одній соні, це дуже важливий експеримент, але на одній соні, я знаю, що це випадувалося, і я випадував, що це таке, що він залишився з францю, і це дуже важливий експеримент, ці соні, ці тріпи, ці всі ці соні не мають цікологічній соні у наші депривування. Можливо, я випадую такі фразі. Ти з Країними, все таке таке експеримент, для качка, але мене що, я випадую, чому не цю? Звичайно, що я випадую, що я випадую, але я випадаю, що це, denkтання, це таке, що це, що я випадую. Д entsprechend, дуже таке, що це таке, що це таке, що це, що це, що це, що таке комплексне, таке діферентне. Ви ми з'яснюєте так багато челленджів, яку ми не з'яснюємо, що ми повинні говорити про всі, але ви з'яснюєте, що індивіція та колективні челленджи є такі ціні, ціні інтересні, діфікальні часи. Ми маємо бути дуже продактиві в цих дні. Все таке фрацювано, все темпорально. Все таке діфікальне і ми дуже ласкаємо ресурси. Ми маємо зрозуміти, чому ми з'яснюємо ресурси. Так, всі сьогодні з'яснюють. Так, це з'яснюється з нас. Так, як ви розумієте? З вашу індивіцію перспективу. Ви з'яснюєте так багато челленджів. Що чого був? Пробу всі спеки також вбив, вони розуміють ці челленджи, які були вирушені до цих фулотних сьогодні інваджень, але ці челленджи у нас лише стануть білими. І так, це дужеıyorsunно, щоб зрозуміти все це на цій штанті. А коли вийшов шп Styles, як Bright колективні гипси. Давайте знайдемо ці фокури. Спіки, хто воно з нас, будь ласка, і я вам ділю флори. Хто хотіло початку вважати ці питання? Я збирала Київ минулого року. Мої френди з Омпану. Вони просто... Вони просто вважали мені від України. І тому, як я тут, я тоді повинна вважатися від України. І я думаю, що в першому разі це не повинна до моєї професії, але ми маємо відбуватися. В цьому минулому року, в новом, в десембері, тому що багато мої френди вважали на це. Це є права вважатися. Якщо не можна робити щось, то, першим, треба вважати на себе, а потім, треба вважати іншого. І я думаю, що ми потрібно говорити, ми потрібно говорити до людей. У цьому першому разі, я була в Карпесію, в Київі, коли я ступав, коли я ступав, коли八 찜 Parker, коли вже у нас чести в paral Almost 2.2 after the first Jedra 2011. В 프로 twentzh consider Nevertheless, у 3.2. C39 C4 die quasi ... Toην studios to instruments, the tool, that everyone of us has, someone writes something, someone pays something, but I think that it's very important to publish everything that we are doing now, yes, because it can be a therapeutic practice, because sometimes, and I'm thinking about those who left abroad і зараз працює для доброго ім'я української артів. Зараз може бути добре, щоб рефлакціювати більше, і щоб думати про себе більше, щоб думати про як випадати щось, в якості більш ефективне. Так, я не знаю, якщо я дуже акуратна в моїх думах, я розумію, що я розумію, і я розумію з вами. Не розумію з мене, я маю сліди. Я так рада, що ви буваєте такі чудові презентації, що я не маю вас зупинити. У мої сліди, у мої сліди, я маю кілька щось, що ми маємо фокусувати. Катя має це, як ми буваємо кілька. Я хотіла почати, не з яким ми буваємо кілька, але з яким поліційні поліційні поліційні воно бувається. Ви буваєте ці дровини. Вони дуже важливі, і ми будемо зробити якісь роботи, коли ми можемо розмовлятися. І це дуже важлива ділема у нашу регуляцію, у нашу ліну. Але проблема є, що український артист не має кількості контакти. Панітор, який має випадати текст-систем. Також, ми інтепринюєрів, і ми не можемо зробити нашу дровину, без селити праві. Але ви маєте право зробити цю дровину, як також воно буваємо. Також, держава не має бути артистом, але має випадати, і випадати ці дровини. Я випадала в текст-адміністрацію. Я випадала до них, і випадала від них, і вони випадали це. Ми маємо говорити до комітетів, до текст-комітетів, і ми маємо показати, що ми випадаємо, що випадаємо, що маємо проблеми, і де є ці дровини. Це сервиси, що випадати, що 600 паніторів буде дуже рада, не до того, що випадати. І один з цих стереотипів в Україні, що ми випадаємо країв. Але 70% жовтичі кажуть, що ми не хочемо випадати, ми хочемо випадати, але ми не хочемо, як випадати ці дровини. Я маю говорити про це, якщо я випадала. Я не маю говорити про це. Це дровини з 2018. І це, again, якщо в 2018 випадати ці дровини з культурної випадати, це 6% жовтичі і випадати ці дровини, а також випадати ці дровини 4% і випадати ці дровини 6%. І чому бачити, як ми можемо випадати на наші дровини, що відбувається до нашого країни. Так, це відбувається до культурного поліція. Я не хотіла говорити про це. Так, але є багато челінгів, що ви маєте, початкувати з культурного поліція і відбувається до артистів, і якісь культурні поліції. Це все здається, що ми маєте дуже кількій відбування з артистів, бо ми діляємо дуже добре відстоси з рівною культурної поліції, і зроблявати якісь рульи. Ніж цього, це таке, це таке, що відбувається до артистів і відбувається до артистів. І так, ми маєте сказати, що артистів, в цьому разі, не мається великого візьмання у наші культурні професіоналі, і вважно критичувати міністрі об'єднання культурного поліції чи артистів, які об'єднання вони, ми маєте сказати, що це руль артистів, і це челінги, на реакційній стадіністі чи смачність стадій. Дестей не вирішитись в цьому разі, чи вийште як критичність, ми маєте різність на нас, чи ми маєте працювати на нас, чи маєте вийшити це, але на нас це дуже важко вирішити. It's very difficult to have productive dialogue with the fruitful dialogue with the authorities and the crisis around the DaVzhenka Center. And I'm as an acting director. I don't want to think in another way. And I see that the state authorities are not ready for dialogue with us. And so how can we stimulate this dialogue? How we can be a change if we want to be a change? Thanks. I came to Kiev at the beginning of October. And I met a protest of DaVzhenka Center protest. The slogan was, our army defends and the authorities do not. The DaVzhenka Center is quite emblematic but it's just an example of what's happening. It proves that the state authorities do not understand what individual activists do. It's just a statement of facts. I wanted to provide an example as much as in Germany. I understand how the system works without any details. But in the spring I led a panel discussion organized by German Art Association. And the director invited me to organize. She asked me how to help Ukrainian artists. I suggested, apart from practical help, to organize a discussion to understand the context better. I was really interested in the structure of the artistic association. They are kind of intermediaries. This organization represents the interests of artists in front of the state authorities. They have 800 people who are part of this association in Ukraine. I guess the number is much lower. That's what I wanted to say. It's hard to say. In Germany actually there are certain regulations for seeing taxes. All the regulations concerning artistic life. It's difficult for this to appear like that. It's interesting that in Ukraine this structure is beyond the sphere of real creators. But it doesn't work in practice. I believe this is the moment for us now to overview. The association of artists can be something beyond a Soviet association of artists. An association that represents the interests of artists in front of the state. This is what we started talking about. The Ukrainian example shows that change can happen as much as we can discuss them. And then change can happen after the discussion. I really understand this approach. We should look at other examples from other countries. Because many Ukrainian artists work abroad. So we can take some examples and implement them in our country. Dasha has already said that this is crucial. Maybe you'd like to talk about the German example. I agree with Dasha because right now we can see how effective such organizations can be. But I also agree with Aleftina that the catastrophe, the disaster of the payment for the order of artists' work is really horrible. You can work as an artist within a sole entrepreneurship. But some people even did not want to choose this way of formalizing your activity. When it comes to paying fees, it's really complicated. And I believe that in fact it's much easier to work even when you have to pay taxes. You lose more energy for formalities. And this is why I believe that having this experience, all the people that left the country and work based on contracts, they do not want to work on the black market anymore. We don't have time to discuss all the organizational details, but it's really quite complicated. First and foremost I think payment for work is not really clear. This is a must and we need to talk about this. Although I understand it's not an easy topic to discuss. We really need to talk about self care, to take care of one another of yourself. Because when you do take care of yourself, we can work better. When it comes to the black market, you become a part of the black market and it's very hard to leave this gray zone actually. So if you agree to work illegally, then you become part of this illegal sphere and it's very hard to get out of this vicious circle. Дар'я has said real associations, not Soviet associations. As we know them, I understand the international discussion. The international community doesn't understand that we have a huge Soviet heritage that we need to deal with. I will tell it right away. Maybe we'll have some political will to facilitate the elderly activists in the institutions because as we were helping the elderly creators like Mihail, on the one hand they are so much deep in the Soviet mentality and I would really want them to abandon this toxic Soviet values. But unfortunately I also see a lot of this Soviet mentality in young people as well. I'm not stopping as you can see. The director will never show up in this academy because this community, the intelligent, let's say, if you want to become a director you need to have proper education, understanding and a lot of years of experience lecturing at universities, not in private ones, but in public ones. So we really need to fight with this Soviet heritage. I understand this red tape, which has been ongoing after the fall of the Soviet Union, unfortunately. But what can we do? We have no exit strategy from this debacle. So the elderly people who work is another complex problem that we will discuss some other time. I would like to add more to what Katarina has said. For example, the procedure of academic work. It turns out that international diplomas are not respected. So when you have covered all levels of education in Ukraine, your diploma is very difficult to continue elsewhere. So it's necessary to transform, to reform the education sphere. That's it on my side. Stas, thanks. I'd like to say that everyone, we're really, really speaking fast, but we have so much experience that it's difficult to focus on the real thing, the real practice, what we are doing. So I think it's really important that we have no books, history textbooks for Ukraine. We have no institutions. They have not been covered. Key events have not been written down in the books of history. There was an initiative of association of artists in the Soviet times. And this association was meant to represent the interests of artists. I agree that in Germany, they supported some of our colleagues with the Down syndrome. People protest and fight for their rights. But in Ukraine, people with disabilities do not protest, unfortunately. In Germany, there is an organization working for 25 years, and they've been protesting. But they have just different challenges. I will show you now what kind of slogans they use. Available places for the disabled. It turns out our cities are not really safe for the disabled. They have been so in 2014 and before the war and after the full-scale invasion as well. When it comes to the international exchange, when I came here, I met my curators. We talked about the program, the residency. And I asked them what they are interested in me, what they want to listen from me. Last year, before the war, we were in Cologne. And I understand that our colleagues from Germany were looking at me with wide eyes open. They looked at me and looked at my photographs. And they were really surprised at what kind of work I showed them. I wanted to say that in my sphere, inclusivity, because we are kind of a neophytes in a way. We do a lot, we do a lot of things. When it comes to international cooperation, we share our experience. And there are many examples when we inspire our colleagues. I think inclusivity, there is a lot of talk about inequality. Thank you, stars. If our online speakers do not want to add anything, then we can move on. I would like to touch upon those things that mentioned stars and other guests. It will be a set of questions, because we are limited in time. I just mentioned about cooperation and the experience of international exchange. And now we see that there are a lot of cultural art specialists abroad. And it creates a lot of opportunities for us on the level of representation. But still, there are a lot of challenges. I realize it, for example, how can we work with the teams who are based in different countries. But what do you think about it? You started speaking about transformation, about ongoing transformation of Ukrainian art. There are so many professionals who are working in different countries. We do not know how long it is going to last. We do not know how many people decide to remain living abroad. And who are going to come back. Please give the mic to the speaker, because otherwise we do not have her hear them. So what we can do with this system that is being transformed so quickly. So what do you personally think? Should we emphasize that we have to facilitate the coming back to our country? But what do you think about it? Teresa wanted to start. I don't know why stars decided that I want to add something. Probably he heard about it. It's very nice to hear from you. As for me, my son next year is going to attend school. So I do believe that next year I will be able to work in Lviv. And my son will attend Ukrainian school. But when we were in Poland, I felt secure. I felt comfortable. People who surrounded me, they were so nice to us. Although I was in very unstable condition, I didn't care about anything except for news. I only kept looking at the news feed. But sometime ago I was able to start thinking about art. Sometime later, when we arrived to Austria, we also were surrounded by very nice people whom we trusted. But in Paris I realized that I have to draw my attention to documents and to some legal aspects and be very careful about them. And I think that what is important, we have to have some organizations that are going to distribute their resources who promise some golden perspectives, but then there are no perspectives at all and the person is left alone. So I think that such things we really need. At least from my point of view. You asked about what we can do with the professionals who left our country. And you asked it as if we are politicians or policy makers, but basically we even didn't answer to your previous question. And unfortunately we don't cooperate with lawmakers, with some lawmaking initiatives in the government, and we have to confirm it. Yes, and we have to realize that we are really cool and politicians have to make friends with us, but still an artist is not someone who creates content, but I just don't want to speak about it. Recently I visited the committee who selects their application forms for candidates who want to receive some grants from the president. And if we read these applications, we shouldn't believe our artists sometimes, because if I were a politician, I wouldn't believe many of these people. How can we just leave this vicious circle? How can we change our laws? It's all our heritage, Soviet heritage. Every person who dealt with the tax, who created the tax regulations for artists, have no person who created such regulations, has ever spoken to artists, because there are some materials mentioned, for example, pistols that are not used at the moment. But what I mean is that no one spoke to artists, no one in the circles of policy makers. Yes, it's true. And I think that we should demand to have a dialogue with our authorities, because the cultural professionals showed such high efficiency that, for example, mentioning the cultural strategy 2025, it proves that the team that elaborated this strategy made a very big contribution to the development of culture. But we have to have more agency, we have to have stronger voice during the talks with our authorities, and we have to demand the authorities to listen to us. All of us, we are sort of little branches of ministry of foreign affairs. When we are traveling to some western countries, sometimes we are asking ourselves, aren't our efforts too small? Maybe these efforts make up the bigger picture, but if all these troubles were part of foreign policy, it would be much more efficient. And so I would like to thank the Ukrainian Institute, who has been doing just a wonderful job for these last months. So there is hope. I just forgot what was the question. Yes, I will remind you. The question is what should we do with the system of cultural professionals who are scattered around the whole world? Should we learn to live in such conditions and consider it as something permanent? Or should we try to preserve these people as some key figures the way they functioned before the 24th of February? I think that temporary and fragile networks is our biggest power at the moment. And I think that we can see this phenomena not as some laws, but we should see it as an expansion of our worldviews and that it can sort of replace the education, because we can still live in the closed world of wonderful Ukraine, but it's not realistic and it's not worth doing this. And I think that we have to create some programs. In the beginning of my statement I said the word reintegration. After immigration there is reintegration. Reintegration, yes, coming back. So if someone leaves the country, works in some other country, I think it's very interesting to create some programs, residential programs for those who are living abroad. I don't know if it's... What do you mean, residents of sort of repatriation programs for Ukrainians? Probably some temporary grounds or something like that? For example, I was accused of having access to German institutions and why I'm still working in Ukraine. And why are you still working in Ukraine? Why do you want to do something in Ukraine? And I heard it from different people in different contexts. It sounds funny, but it's really sad, because it means that, for example, we have problems with institutions and we have to confet them, we have to articulate them, but in order to work in Ukraine we have to realize the things that we have there and we have to try to change it step by step, but not to say you are in Germany and just be there and do not disturb us here in Ukraine. But unfortunately we have to confront with that. So I think that support of these links, connections with people who are staying abroad at the moment and some efforts to reintegrate these artists, it should be done. And I think that it will be very fruitful and productive. Thanks, Dasha, it sounds very inspiring. I have to say that Katarina Batanova spoke about culture and the contemporary modern diaspora, Russian diaspora 2.0, some key, some key literature positions were published. And the first barrier I had is to leave Ukraine, how to buy tickets, how to organize documents, maybe I have just to stay, how to overcome these barriers. And one of my friends told me before I came here, it's not you who need this, but those people who are going to meet you there, they need you. It is very important to see a live person from Ukraine and to speak about this diaspora 2.0. We are sort of representatives of this diaspora to some extent. And it's just preserving of our ties. We know that, for example, people are ordering Ukrainian books for their children who are staying abroad. And it's really good. Yeah, thanks for this idea. And I see that we are short of time. So I'm going to ask the final question, although we are not deepened into some topics, but still I would like to speak about some more aspects. And I would like to ask you about such thing. We have discussed a lot of layers. And what new skills and what new survival skills, survival practices became the most important for you. And what skills can be a basis for you in order to create new strategies? I would like to start inclusiveness, I think. Dasha mentioned this. And we have to speak to others in our community, not to hurt others. We have an external threat, and so we don't have to hurt ourselves from the inside. And so we have to treat each other with respect. But, again, we have to keep discussing. And so I think that it's again a question of education, how to run a discussion. I had a thought, but I lost it. We have a few seconds so you can pass the mic to us. I don't really know how it applies to my profession, but as I understood what I want, what I do not want to work with, well, it doesn't work at all at all times, but the very understanding of the principles when in Ukraine everybody understands everything within the community. Thanks, now I got the thought. After this experience every single time in the public discussions with the Indian national community, I do not consider myself just one individual. So many of us understand this, that we should take part in the collective. It's really cool that you receive this experience and you can record it with your hot heart. But after some time, when you can take a look back, step back and analyze it, then you can share it with the audience. Teresa, we don't have much time, but you wanted to say something. I'm still in the process, so I think after the victory of Ukraine we will explain, we'll take a look at our experience and make some conclusions, but right now I think that I deal with really empathetic people, so I am able to develop my empathy myself to survive and to use this value in the positive way to retain my mental health. Thank you so much, Tanya. Very quickly, if you could, just to add some final thoughts on the discussion. Yes, I wanted to support, let us thought, because now we, the institutions, when you have worked with institutions, you understand that problems share something. But we need to implement some changes in the institutions to make people solidarize within themselves and to include all the narratives, all the voices, because the problem is that we're trying to create one paradigm, which is vital for the whole country. But actually I think the institutions and the development of infrastructure, cultural infrastructure, can support the solidarity of the community. Because Aleftina, as she said, the legal aspect is quite absent. There are some, I mean, we have great artists, but we have, we lack infrastructure. We can consolidate and make people solidarize with themselves. What you have said about the institutions is really important. We will come back to this notion in the coming days. I would like to really thank, because we don't have, we need to wrap up. I'd like to thank the organizers and the participants of today's discussion, who participated offline and online, because I think today to be a Ukrainian cultural professional is a balancing act. If you ask me, what is the key insight, what is the main tool that I understand within these months? Every single day we're making baby steps in order to fight problems and every single cultural professional and the institutions. I'm really thankful for you and thank you for today's discussion. Thank you to everybody.