 Thanks, Andreas, for that introduction. I just want to speak about our speakers a little bit more in that we are super lucky tonight that both our speakers are experts, but they're also perpetual experimentalists pushing the limits of 3D scanning technology, printing, photogrammetry, while challenging these technologies to be more, I would say, inclusive in our understanding of representation, the value of collaboration, multiplicity, and accessibility. And in that, they're really building completely new frameworks and languages and spaces for architectural and design explorations. So as architects, as we continue to enmesh and create in our increasingly entangled material and digital realities, I don't think there's any argument that those two are disconnected anymore. We're working in and within and with these new platforms, new media, new languages of engagement that's being produced every day. And there's a new set of ethics of politics in the work that's produced in the way that it's being collaborated on. So we're really lucky to have both Carlos and Bika here tonight to really expand on their work and to further this critical dialogue. So first up, we have Carlos, the Chinese Bayoid. Carlos is the developer of the Lucida 30 scanner and he's worked on numerous projects sort of all over, including the documentation of historic sites such as the Tum of Sadi I in Luxor, Egypt, art documentations for institutions such as the National Gallery in London or Museo de Prado in Madrid or Museo de Louvre in Paris and many others. He's also developed critical explorations and exhibitions around facsimiles, such as the Tum of Tuti Common in Luxor, where there's really amazing this room, the Salvo Bologna and many, many others. And then we all welcome Bika Rybeck, partner at Sunplace Studio and through her really expansive scope of design work, manifesting architecture, exhibition, curation, discourse, teaching, or software development. I think she's crafting an architectural practice that is decidedly contemporary, producing work that collapses scales, collapses mediums, physical and virtual spaces, and really creating a new form or a new language or engagement via technology and again, collaboration that is sort of uncharted and therefore very exciting. She holds, she wears many hats, but since 2017, she's been teaching tools for show at GSAP, which is a series of courses and workshops that works with different students to create these different interactive prototypes for architectural representation in this community. So with that, we are really excited to see the work of Carlos and Bika tonight. Thank you very much. I would like to say thank you very much, Andres, and Shashi for the invitation. It's been really, it's a pleasure being here. I was really looking forward to this event. And I'm really looking forward. I'm very interested in hearing Bika's lecture as well. Should I start? I would like to say that Andres is right. We've been having many conversations in the last years, both from the School of Architecture in Madrid and also now in GSAP. Every time I've been talking to Andres, I've been learning new things and in a way I've been keeping, I've been trying to apply many of the approaches to technology that I was learning from his work as well as a professor and as an architect. I was trained as an architect. I am now trying to reinvent myself. I'm becoming kind of interested in other areas, other scales of the profession of architecture. And I would like to show you a little samples of the work we are doing in the Factum Foundation. Should I try to share my screen now? Let's begin with an image like this. And I think it's very relevant, specifically for the moment we are living in right now. This is an image of the Museum of Louvre in Paris. It's kind of shocking to see an image like this nowadays. Probably we will not see something like this scenario soon because the way our relation with culture is changing is rapidly modifying because of the different events related to coronavirus, et cetera. These gatherings of people, this relation of numbers and figures, numbers of visitors as equals to success in culture as a way of valuing the success in culture is something that is rapidly changing. This thing is something that in Factum we have been trying to analyze and offer different approaches, different answers to how people should interact with objects, with works of art. And I would like to offer a few examples of how displacements of values in culture have been happening through the work that we have been doing. I like to use this concept of displacement in the sense that certain values or certain meanings that we are usually applying to specific objects through making copies, through making facsimiles, making exact reproductions of these objects, these values can be placed, can be relocated somewhere else in a different object. So it's about how we can make a shift between what's original and what is something else. So this image I was showing you before, this is a room in the Louvre Museum. All these people are actually looking at the Mona Lisa by Leonardo. And as you can see, everyone is trying to get a good picture or a good selfie of that famous iconic image, but in a way they're giving their backs to a much larger and in a way for sometime most important painting, which is actually the Wedding at Cana by Paolo Veronesi. That's the big canvas painting at the end of the room. And because all the people are usually gathering to look at the Giaconda, the Mona Lisa, they are in a way ignoring this big painting behind them. But for some time, this painting was actually in this location. This is the Refectori by Palladio in Venice in the monastery of San Giorgio. And this room, this empty space, this is where the painting was originally located. So the artist Veronesi initially thought this creation, this work of art, to be part of this architecture setting. What is happening is that now in Paris, since Napoleon took the painting more than two centuries ago and put it in the museum, it is in a way neglecting its original nature, its reason for being that specific subject and that specific painting. As you can see, this is an image that shows how this painting used to be at the end wall of the Refectori. This is where the monks gather to eat together. And this is why having the Wedding at Cana, this representation of a feast, of a gathering, of a festive gathering represented in the painting was in a way an extension of the activities happening inside the Refectori. We were asked to do an exact replica of this painting in order to bring it back to its original context, to its original location. This is what we had to do back in 2006 with the technology that was available at the time. The goal was to record the surface of the original painting without ever touching it with 100% non-contact recording technology and trying to capture the high resolution image of that canvas in a way that could be reproduced physically. We are not talking about the virtual recreation here. We are talking about gathering a proper digital image and then being able to reproduce it physically printed on canvas the same way as the original would have been so that we could in a way rematerialize this image, this digital file of the image but becoming part of the material reality in the Refectori itself. So what happens, this is an image of the facsimile that we installed some years ago. The result of a project of an action like this is that we are effectively repatriating in a way. It's a knack of repatriation, bringing back something that used to be in a particular place but that was stolen but we are doing something else. We are trying to demonstrate that at least in the way we understand our work, originality and authenticity are things that don't have to be associated to the same object. So this is the first displacement I would like to share with you. What we have done is something that when people visit this copy, this replica in Venice, people don't have any doubt that the original is the painting in Paris but in a way because we have the facsimile in this space at the same height with the same position that the artist created to with the daylight coming from the window where it should be at the right height without this golden frame. All these characteristics are making this object in a way more authentic. So we are understanding that even though the original is in Paris the experience to get out of looking at the facsimile is in a way more authentic. Bringing something back to its original context is one of the reasons why we make facsimiles. The way we do it is and I will show you different examples now very quickly. It's a mix between digital technologies like high resolution digital photography, 3D scanning, photogrammetry, etc. In combination with craft traditional skills. So there's always this combination between the transformation of physical materials and also the transformation of digital information. This is an image of a very different place. This is in the Vatican in Rome and this is the original, this image in the Salah Bologna. It's a private room near the private apartment of the Pope. So it's a place that unlike the painting I was showing you at the beginning this is a place where visitors and tourists don't have access to. So it's a unique room. It has different representations of the city of Bologna that they were made in a kind of very complex very intricate conceptual framework. So it's, as I was saying, proposing different representations of the city of Bologna with like a view of the province, like a map of the city. So what we were asked in this case is to bring this painting, this European representation of the city completely out of its original context. So it could be seen by the public for the first time. It's in a way the opposite argument to the previous project. It's about bringing something completely out of its original location in order to expose it to a different kind of criticism. We were talking about a place that is private that it was made at the end of 16th century just to be enjoyed by the Pope regularly 13th at the time. And now we are trying to recreate that fresco that wall painting, not only with color but also with part of the texture, part of the surface qualities of the wall in order to be installed in a new museum, the Museo de la Chita, the new museum of the city in Bologna. So it's a completely different approach to making this work of art suddenly a more democratic or a more accessible element. This is one of the main advantages of facsimiles. It gives people a kind of more natural or more accessible access to work so far that otherwise it will be, let's say impossible to visit, to enjoy or to understand. But maybe the most useful reason or the best reason why making a facsimile is when it can help to protect, to preserve the original work of art or the original monument. What we did in the Tomb of Tutankhamun in Egypt is something that was specifically for this purpose. This is an image of the original state of the tomb. We are talking about the Funerary Chamber which is not a big room. It's actually a quite narrow space. So when we started working in this monument which is one of the most famous archeological sites in the world, we found that the state of conservation was very fragile. The painting was literally coming out the windows, as you can see in this image. So the first step in all the works that we do in facsimile is how to record the color, the surface, and the shape of the object in the most accurate way with the highest possible resolution so that we can have first proper digital records of how that object is at that particular moment. But then we should be able to reproduce that digital information back into the physical world in a way that we are keeping the same character, the same level of complexity as the original. It's not about trying to simplify anything. It's about keeping all the layers of complexity in this complicated trip between the physical object to digital information and back to the physical again. We were after digitizing, after recording the original monument in Luxor in Egypt, we had all this information on the color of the relief of the walls and we started building this facsimile in our workshops in Madrid in a way that was visually exactly the same as the original. So when we are making a full scale reproduction like this, a one-to-one scale replica of something, we are not trying to make it in the same material as the original. Of course, we will not be doing this in stone, but we will be doing it in a way that from a visual point of view, it should be completely the same as if you were in front of the original monument. So this is why the back of it, it's actually like a set besides the stenography because it's all about trying to restitute the visual qualities of the original. This project was complete when we could actually bring the facsimile back to Egypt because the idea was not making a replica to be part of a temporary exhibition or an itinerary show around Europe, et cetera. It was about bringing the facsimile near the original actually a little more than one mile from the original monument. So people could actually keep going to Luxor, keep visiting Egypt and their archaeological sites and have the opportunity of visiting both tombs, the original and the reproduction and decide what is actually the difference between them. It's a kind of a game that we are proposing to the tourist, to the visitor because we want to propose facsimiles as an idea of sustainable tourism. We want to be able to protect the monuments for the future generations but also to keep increasing and keep promoting visitors and tourism to the area because it's so important for the economy and for the social sustainability of the region. So we believe that facsimiles like this can actually create effectively this separation between what is the act of preserving a monument and what is the activity of visiting a monument. And this is another displacement that I think was actually happening since we inaugurated this facsimile back in 2014. It is possible to combine these two goals which are apparently opposite to each other but it will be possible let's say in the future to close the original tomb to the public if that's what the authorities want to do in order to preserve it from further decay but at the same time to keep bringing, keep attracting the interest of people to visit in the monuments on site. After doing this work, we realized that we didn't have the technology necessary to capture all the qualities of the surface of things. When we are trying to reproduce the wedding at Cannes by Vanessa or the Sala Baronia or Tutankhamun, all those works were mostly focused on the reproduction of color and not so much on the reproduction of the surface, the reproduction of the texture of the object. This is why we started developing this system, the Luthida 3D scanner, which is a development that we did in Faktum, specifically dedicated to recording the relief of paintings and other low relief objects with a maximum level of detail with the highest possible resolution. So we could understand a painting not from the point of view of the color but from the perspective of the topography of the shape and the relief. We look at a painting like this. This is a painting by Rubens that is at the Museo del Prado in Madrid. We are interested on capturing not only the color but also what is the surface quality that makes this object unique. And this is the type of information that we can obtain with this 3D scanner. As you can see, the goal is that the scanner should ignore the color completely, like if we were removing the layer of color virtually speaking. And we were actually looking at the shape of the panel. In this case, this is a panel painting. So we could analyze all the cracks in the wood. We could actually understand the thickness of the brush strokes, all the different elements that are relevant to understand this painting as a complex object, not just as a two-dimensional image that can be part of a catalog that can be part of a publication. We are talking about something that even though it's primarily a two-dimensional thing, it has three-dimensional qualities. We have been applying the Lucida scanner to hundreds of paintings. Since we started this development more than 10 years ago, it's been applied to canvas painting, panel paintings, maps, frescoes, books, drawings, all types of objects. And in all cases, the goal was actually to try to make evident, to make visible all those things that you don't usually get when you visit a museum, when you are in front of a painting. What they want in museums is to show the image as perfect as possible without any defect, without any mistakes. So this is why you get homogeneous and uniform light, usually, and you are in a way neglecting the texture of the painting, which is what makes it unique. This is, I'm showing you now details of a painting by Frangelico, the Annunciation, also in the Museo del Prado. This recording was done right after it was restored, after it was in a process of restoration. And what happened here is that because we are understanding the relief of the painting, we are capable of trying to communicate what were the original intentions of the artist when he was trying to create all these effects of light and shadow because of the texture itself. And this is something that you get when you are actually using a 3D scanner to analyze a flat object like a painting. This type of approach to analyzing works of art, it's something that it's radically changing what is happening in art restoration and art preservation. It's thanks to recordings like this that you are capable of having a certain type of information that allows you to leave the original object untouched. So what's happening in the recent decades, in the recent years in art restoration is that it's becoming more and more accepted to have paintings, to have works of art that are not perfect, that they don't look perfect because actually originality is more and more being understood as something that it's a dynamic process. It's not a fixed state of the object but it's something that we are building, we are constructing every time. And this is at the core of the work we are doing with the Luthier scanner, understanding originality not as a fixed state of the object but as a dynamic process that is constantly changing and it's precisely this transformation which we have to understand as part of the natural aging of paintings and the natural changing, natural modifications over time of the works of art. The shift that the Luthier scanner is making possible is to see paintings in the way that I am showing you now in the screen. These are all different details of the surface of famous paintings from different ages, from different time, different artists and different techniques. And we are being able to extract all these material qualities but using them in a digital environment. And this is why we are so much obsessed with the surface of things because we really believe that it's through analyzing the skin of things that we can learn so much about the way these things have been treated over time, they have been restored and they have been changing specifically. But then the real displacement, the real change happens when we want to bring this digital information back into the material world, back into the physical environment. It is possible to recreate physically this 3D information by different means like 3D printing or CNC routing and different publication technologies that are capable in one level or the other of reproducing in different materials the type of digital information that are being gathered in virtual form. One of the ways we are trying to show this technology to the public is through exhibitions like this one that it's still going on in Bologna in Italy in which for the first time we are showing the surface of paintings just with no color, just as white reproductions in which the relief is the most important thing to see and to appreciate. In a way we are neglecting color and we are trying to paint new paintings only with the shadows and the effects of a raking light. And this is why the annunciation by Frangelico that I was showing you before it is possible to be perceived by the visitor under a new light with this new parameters so that when you are going back to a museum and you are maybe in front of a painting you are in a way invited to look for different things to spend maybe a little more time in front of the artwork trying to maybe look for different angles try to look for what were the texture effects that the artist was trying to apply to this particular painting. Finally to conclude I would like to extend this idea of changes between the physical and the digital and between the scale of microns to the scale of something just at a larger size. In the work that we have been doing in Venice we are going back to Venice now and trying to question how can we apply this super focused look onto the texture of things but how can we apply this to the scale of architecture and even to the scale of the city. We were doing this experiment recently and this is what we have been doing also as part of G-SAP's Historic Preservation Program how to employ different levels of three scanning technology that have different goals, different means to achieve their goals and how can we interpret the city through the eyes of technology. So for example, when we are analyzing when we are recording the island of San Giorgio this is the island where the wedding at Canada by Veronese is where it was usually placed. We want to understand that what are the levels of significant change that are happening to the island because for example of the periodic floods that happen, the AQUALTA effects for example. So often the island and as it happens with many areas in Venice gets flooded because of rising levels of water from the lagoon. So these effects of the water are actually being leaving traces, leaving their marks on the walls of the cloister in San Giorgio and this is something that can be captured exactly the same as if we were analyzing a canvas painting for example. The idea is would it be possible to monitor these changes by recording certain areas of the island over the years over the time and then creating a possible comparison between different records. And also when we are for example analyzing complex historic objects like the trophy wall in the San Marques square by the Basilica in Venice which is collaged like a patchwork of different materials different marble stones from different parts of the world. Is it possible through techniques like photogrammetry, close range, 3D scanning, et cetera to create a proper archive of these stones and then monitor how they change over time. So this is this last change, this last displacement of a scale which we're looking at a micro level of things and then how can we really expand this to a scale of the architecture or the scale of city. This is actually one of the things I would like to share with you to listen to your feedback about and hopefully to develop a further conversation with you in the future. Thank you. Quite clapping. Do we just go one after another or is there in between? Okay, okay. Thanks so much Carlos, that was really amazing. Wow, I mean, I knew some of the work but it was fully different to hear it from you. And also especially these paintings without color just are incredible. I really want to go to a museum tomorrow and just look at the details of the painting. All right, I am going to share my screen. Oh, and also I'll also put this into the chat because there's lots of links in here that might be useful to people. So some of you, I saw that there's some students in here know that I like to make these presentations with Google slides because then it allows people to also check out the links on their own or have to kind of document after the lecture to kind of go deeper if they're interested. And I only have one screen, so I don't see you. So if there's anything wrong with the screen or if you have a question, just shout out to me because I don't really see the chat. But you see a bright green window right now? Yes. Okay, good. So I, you know, this has been really, really good actually because I feel like I've been, as I mentioned at the very beginning, doing scanning a little bit. It started off as a hobby and I'll walk you through a little bit how it kind of became part of my practice but making this presentation made me realize what an important part of my practice it has become because as you see very beautifully introduced me, I am primarily, I am an architect and a practicing architect and have a firm. And so this has really always felt like a kind of sideline of my work, but then, you know, in a way a very satisfying one because it sort of starts to inform and become the work itself, especially in this past year when I feel like, you know, I guess my sort of side interest or my academic interest has also caught on a little bit in terms of a more popular, the popular imagination sort of like started to really, you know, develop a need for this type of, let's say, content in terms of scanning 3D and then the access to some of these things on the web. Which is really what this lecture is focused on. And so I'll try to walk you through a little bit like my approach to scanning and then we'll all go into a web 3D model and actually look at some of those scans together in 3D. I'll be posting the link at the end of the session. And so, yeah, bear with me with the kind of slide that's gonna get a little bit more interactive at the end. Because it's also, when you talk so much about interactive projects and just in that, you know and then there's nothing, you know, the format itself maybe should also reflect that. So again, scanning started with 1, 2, 3D catch. Anybody here knows that or heard of that at some point? Just shout out. It's an app on your phone where you could just take photos of things. And I remember being in Italy and taking photos of mountains. And that was like five, six years ago. And, you know, later I kind of started to get more into it. I don't know actually exactly how, but it sort of started to understand how that was really the kind of entry drop because it made me realize how easy it is that basically you just need a camera, really just your phone that you have with you to take photos, to take three scans of pretty much anything as long as you have good lighting and good conditions. But I won't go into the technical stuff here. There's enough of that online. But the one thing that kind of fascinated me with scanning is this question of reality. And I think with Carlos, you know, you already talked very beautifully about this idea of a replica and what is really the original, right? Like what is the authentic object versus the inauthentic object? Or what is, you know, the difference between really reality and virtual reality, which is seems like such a banal question in many ways, but especially in this past year, it has become more and more important actually, I think to think about. And so as architects, we are already working with tools to create a future virtual reality, but we're actually sometimes less interested in documenting the reality to do that in a way, or we're sort of maybe lacking the skills or the, you know, means to do that really. And then also, so I think I guess I'm interested in this full cycle of like kind of documenting reality to produce reality, if that makes sense. And so to put it into a different way, I really like to think of three scanning as a creative tool that allows you to, you know, create new types of content. While still, of course, by definition, scanning as a sort of technique, as a technology, is a means of reproduction, right? Like even this event is called reproduction now, but so the media of reproduction has always been also a form of creativity. And so, you know, photographs were seen as reproductions of reality and therefore have no copyright when they're first in the beginning of the 20th century. And so, you know, I think it's kind of similar with three scanning. I feel like there's actually a lot of authorship to that and a lot of ingenuity and a lot of ways of doing things and creativity, you could say. But it isn't really necessarily seen as that. So people just, yeah. So anyway, so this question of like, what is that reality that you're producing with that scan and with these kind of works is something that's really interesting to me. And so for this lecture, I realized, you know, I wanted to break it down because I feel like I had done all these little projects and I wasn't quite sure how to structure them and kind of came up with these five categories that hopefully help for you to understand the tools a little bit better. So the first one, and that's really kind of the origin in a way for me was, you know, 3D scan with 3D models as a form of collaboration. So in a way that you could actually basically have a 3D model on the web and send it to somebody else and for that to be really easy. Because, you know, as we know right now, still people live, 3D models live in very heavy files somewhere on people's desktops and then they get zipped into folders with textures and sent on the transfer and then downloaded and it's just like a very, very complicated way to do that. And so I was really interested, how can we sort of like bring in all these different data points, you know, the 3D model with metadata with it and bring that into a web app. And so CeCe mentioned that, you know, app development and that was really what I tried for a few years. And this is the first time I'm talking about it actually for a while because it failed. So, you know, just starting with a failure right here. So it was a big idea and I was new and we got some funding for it, you know, I mean, most startups fail and this one did and so it's okay. At this point I can share and be okay with it. And it's also because I think I've sort of catalyzed the knowledge from doing that into other things. So here you see, you know, some news that came about. So this was some content that we produced thinking about it but it was really helpful in terms of thinking about, you know, how can we represent space on the web and how can we think about scanning and sort of like reproduction of reality in this sort of interactive way where multiple people can work in a document at the same time. So the idea of this app, just briefly explain it it's like, you know, when you have Google Docs and you have all these people right now I want the Google slides and you can see other people kind of floating around. So the idea that you have the same thing but in 3D, but as a sort of like design tool. And the Mozilla Hubs which is something I'm teaching now until it's for show and that we're also walking later is kind of similar, but it doesn't have the component of let's say the metadata where it would actually function as a design tool. You're kind of just passively walking around. You can't really, it has elements of that but it's not fully that idea. So nobody has built that idea yet. So if anybody here is listening and thinks that it's a good idea and wants to try again, I'm like happy for, I want this to exist. I just realize I'm not the right person to actually go do it all the way. So this was just some slides of that initial idea and some, you know, fantasies we had about it would become this archive for exhibitions where people could come in and really look at, it would be a design tool and then also an archive at the end where you'd be able to kind of look back onto exhibitions and, you know, relive them in 3D on the web. And just some mockups we made. So this was actually a working prototype that built like a, you know we did some actual software development where the app was working. But again, some things you start them and then they fail and it's okay and you move on to the next. So the other project that involved three scanning that actually evolved in the way directly out of that app was basically a college showcase section. So basically not so much the idea about designing or collaborating together but really showing off certain objects in 3D on the web. And so I got a grant to work with the Biscayar Museum in Miami, a really crazy, beautiful place in Miami and recommend if you ever get to go it's sort of broke over the top villa and they had this, they were just really interested in technology and how to engage their audience technology. And so we talked about different ideas and they proposed, oh, we have this case of old items that were, you know, items of the owner and we don't really know how to contextualize them. They're just kind of laying around and we want to create, you know an app for people to kind of learn more about these things. And so I was like, okay, great. I'm going to pre-scan them and use this pre-existing technology that we built to build this app. And here where you see this is another sort of fail. So I tried, I scanned those things but I wasn't good enough at scanning. And so I actually had to rebuild them all in low poly because I realized that basically, so here you see that the rebuild measures because the actual scan would have been too heavy and would have crashed our apps again. Again, a learning process but, you know, and also a lot of these objects as you see are glass and glossy and shiny and anybody who's in my class knows that this is very difficult or who has tried scanning. But, you know, it was an attempt and but the app worked and we built it, you know even though it wasn't quite the scan that we put in there, we used all these photographs to actually construct the objects kind of manually in 3D. And so here you see visitors using it and so the idea was you had the actual physical case there and the reproduction, the virtual reproduction right next to it on a screen. And, you know, we just put it up for a few days and kind of like observe it as a form of visitor testing. It was really fun. It was really cool to see people sort of figure it out and see the relationship between the real objects and the virtual ones and read the descriptions. And there was also a game. So kids were the ones who really understood it best and they just went ahead and tried to figure everything out about the app and play with it versus perhaps we're often a little bit more hesitant about how to actually use it. So semi-favor, I guess here. And then here, so that was kind of around the same time when I was also teaching an iteration of tools for show, the seminar. And this was when we worked with the Intrepid which is a big museum in New York on a West Side Highway. And it's basically a military ship that has been turned into this aircraft carrier museum. And so on the right, you see a beautiful architectural drawing. You see an exploded axon of that ship. And so we worked actually with Hocko-Terrof Bios from the Preservation Department in the school and he was doing a parallel path that was about smell. And so through conversations with him, basically we started kind of thinking about, okay, we could scan parts of the ship and that was the sick bay because the sick bay is inaccessible to visitors during, well, just generally inaccessible because it is so narrow and hard to get to as you see, it's really in the belly of the ship. And so went down with students and here again, it's kind of like a cleaner version in that same app that showed you sort of like the overall layout of the plan. And then the students made these scans and built various apps and interactions so that the actual review was on the ship itself. And so there was kind of like a mixture between SMS and even some AR, with MR, like all kinds of different things, but the scanning was also an important part of the documentation of these spaces. And, yeah, oh, are you just talking to me or just making points? Okay, here's some AR app that people made basically it was a scan and then they put things onto the scan, kind of new 3D models onto the scan and developed a game out of it as a kind of visitor engagement tool. You know, the space is moving incredibly fast. So at the time we used to torch in class and torch just, like it doesn't exist anymore. They basically just closed shop. They got sold, but it's no bigger company and now torches are active, this is not there anymore. So it's really, yeah, the space is exciting because it's changing, but that's also sometimes frustrating because you have to kind of keep learning and developing new things. And then this showcase idea developed further last time during COVID when we had to kind of pivot the class into a different theme. And, you know, because some of you were, that was it when everyone really was at home couldn't even leave so people, students were scanning their spaces. And so here we started to use Sketchfab and build these little scenes. I think it's linked on this link above. So if you can go on to the link and there's little descriptions and there's sounds. So people really built a little, they scanned their belongings, but then the idea was kind of like create a little vignette, a spatial vignette of that moment of isolation or the moment of change. Here's some kind of took, you know, he had to move out of GSEP housing. So he just took a scan of all the suitcases. So it was a very emotional review actually. It was very sort of like odd because, you know, it's like a visual studies class, but like we all kind of looked at these moments and a lot of them are like bedroom rooms or weird, you know, situations. Obviously students chose what to scan. They didn't have to do specific things, but it was, yeah, it was a really kind of different side of scanning, a different side of almost like a very personal side of scanning and then bringing that to slide. And then another showcase project, and this one I'll actually walk you through in the air in a second. So this was last winter. I went on a trip with my very good friend, Solaria Meyer, and she is from Argentina and we spent two weeks traveling through the Pampas in Argentina, really a very flat countryside and looking for the workshop, Francisco Salamone, who's an Italian Argentine architect in the 1930s in the under the fascist regime, built a series of really incredible and strange and actually, you know, sort of kind of unique buildings that are really hard to pinpoint in terms of they're not quite modernist, they're not art deco, they're really kind of their own thing, but they're, and they're also really problematic because they were sort of built, you know, fascist project of state building at the time, but now they're kind of like the most extraordinary piece of architecture in this region. And so, you know, because it's so vast, the area, you still have to travel hours and hours and hours between each of them. So really kind of on the trip, I mean, I had my camera, like, you know, the good architect bringing my good camera, but then sort of while we looked at these structures, I realized, oh my God, these are perfect for scanning. They're so, you know, textured and they're falling apart. And there's also the urgency because they're really hard to access just physically and also nobody's really taking care of them. There's a preservation moment here. And so it started to take photos for to make scans out of it. And then later, when Weller and I came back, we built a website that sort of, so she was also writing her thesis on these buildings, her master thesis. And so within the actually Spanish Literature Department at Georgetown, so it's also a collaboration between sort of like an architect and a writer or, you know, so academic writing with an architectural research. And so a really beautiful project in terms of like combining our interests and sort of visions into the scans and then into the website where, again, the models are hosted on Sketchfab have little descriptions that we wrote together. And then there's a text on the website that explains about the buildings, why they're important. And we hope to make this into an exhibition at some point, you know, maybe with physical replicas or through VR versions of it. So here you see, I didn't actually mention what those buildings are. So it's actually kind of dark. So they're most of the ones that we went to visit are starter houses because he basically built mostly starter houses and city halls, which is quite strange, but a strange combination. But those were at the time in Argentina, you know, the country of meat, the starter houses were the most important civic buildings in a way next to the town hall. And so, which now has a very different meaning because they're all abandoned and it all got centralized. But she's writing about this relationship between nature, meat, cattle, country identity and so on. But so here's the tracks, basically where the cattle was hung from the ceiling. So, yeah, and there's something about these scans that even, you know, again, has, to me, at least it resonates emotionally. They're really, they're, maybe it's part of the scanning aesthetic itself, like the artifacts that happen through scanning make it even more creepy. I mean, they were creepy in reality, but in a way here, so like the creepiness of the scan matches the, or yeah, it matches the actual experience of being inside of this building. And here you see a drawing of this gate. So, scant exterior, and you know, we didn't have a drone, so it was all just how much I could walk around and then went inside and scant interior. So here's an overlay of two different scans that has an interior and exterior. And actually kind of creates not quite a complete but a pretty good picture of this building. And you see how precise it is because you can actually, you know, you can take quite precise measurements. And there's very little, this one did have a floor gun, but most of these buildings actually don't have very little documentation. So it's also, can't be a really interesting tool to actually create floor plans or, you know, further document buildings that are about to fall apart. And I'm dreaming of doing a trip like that in Yugoslavia where I've been and traveled around, but sort of there's all these abandoned buildings that are falling apart that need documentation. Anyway, that's, if anybody knows the grant, I want to try to do that. So, yeah, so these were kind of like, I put them into showcase. I mean, obviously all these categories are overlapping. Documentation is another area that, you know, here I talk about documentation a little bit more dry sense where it's not so much about representing these things or putting them onto an exhibition or showing them to the public, but it's more like architectural documentation as an excite documentation. So this was in the fall, my friend bought a little house in the Catskills and he was like, hey, do you want to, you know, be my architect and help me renovate it? And of course, and so I went up there and made a scan of the house just for the purpose of documenting it and making it easier. Now, obviously once you know how to do it, it's much, much faster than going in and measuring all this and you have a much more precise model. So here's an interior model and again, interior and exterior separate, but then we combined. And then because, you know, so here's some more images of this scam, because I need to use this kind of for architectural drawings, the sort of messy measures are not that helpful. And so I'm showing this also to show this various transitions and ways that those scans are changing once they're made, once they go away from the point out. So here you see the cleanup model. So I built a rhino model because that's where we're going to be using to design things in and make drawings and so on. So, you know, kind of transitioning it into sort of a different kind of environment and it looks entirely different. And obviously this, we could have built the same model from lots of measurements. So this was just a way to make it faster. The textures are mostly taken actually from the scan. So here are these textures so, you know, just basically taking a screenshot off the side and mapping it onto that plane. And so that does give the rhino model a different kind of realism than if we would have just measured and put like any kind of wood texture on it. So there's, you still see this as a sort of hybrid model in a way that is, you know, if there's reality or there's kind of abstraction, it's not entirely abstracted yet. It's still somewhere in between. And we'll be walking through these two as well. So we can actually compare in 3D how the effect is between the kind of scan one and then the rhino one. So another category is, I don't know if artistic is actually or maybe emotional or sort of like more visceral as a sort of scanning of the experiment and how to create, you know, sort of study a little bit more free flowing study of space. So this is actually an upcoming show that's going to be shown at the SIVA Contemporary International Virtual Art. So it's SIVA Festival and it's opening in two weeks. If you're interested, let me know. I can post the link to it. But so it's a little bit of progress right now but this has been actually a long-term project where we've been, I think I've always fascinated by foam, like actually foam as a construction material as insulation, as something that is behind every wall and actually behind everything we're sitting. You're probably sitting on foam right now but it's covered by something and you're probably surrounded by walls but also a foam inside. So the whole idea of this project is to scan this foam that's sort of like hidden behind everything and bring it out to light and kind of like be immersed in this foam world in VR. So here inside of a foam package that was scanned and here and then there's also an exhibition that's kind of researching foam alternatives because foam is actually really harmful to the environment and sort of like thinking about mycelium foam and other kinds of foam. So this is also linked so you can go in after and just explore and poke around this but here you see a little house and this house was actually also the beginning. So basically all these different models that are in this giant scene are all scans from that little interior that was in construction. So basically you could, the foam was coming out of the walls, you know, that everything was open. And so I think that's another really interesting opportunity of scanning and then also VR is basically you can change, you can play the scale, right? Like you can just, you can go inside of very small things and or look at very big things in a small scale. So scale itself, you know, I mean there's this thing about art, like most artists just like something scale up a lot but this is definitely just kind of a sensorial experience that is quite different. And then this was last year, actually also before lockdown with G-sub students and Mika Tau from the conservation department, we three scanned an abandoned pub in Piedai and the address was there. Or did you make, yeah, you were there, right? Or did, no, I guess he didn't make it because I think we talked a lot and then anyway. So there was, so this is the scan, it's a laser scan so you can see how nice it comes out. This is the space. And so in this space basically we just, you know had it for a couple of months and did all kinds of scanning. So here it was sort of, these are different kinds of scans you can make. So this is a detailed scan of that space of just like a random pipe that was there. And then of the bar that was done with photogrammetry and this was the scale artwork I made and that was shown in the space was kind of like a meta work where space that art is shown and it's being scanned and it's being kind of reproduced in itself. And you hear it sort of uncovered things that you maybe wouldn't see. So there's all this gum underneath the bar and everything, you know you see sort of the sort of surreal moments and then you also, it looks kind of hyper real and then when suddenly the camera turns around and you can see the meshes sort of coming out. So again, sort of playing with sort of our emotional reactions to reality, hyper reality and so on and those videos are also linked here. And then based on that same scan we also rebuilt the scan together with a number of collaborators and co-curators. And so and build an actually interactive website where you could walk through this space and experience the artworks, you know by clicking on them and then getting more information about each of the artworks. So again, you know, the scan was sort of hyper real as this laser scan in the beginning. So I mean, never perfect but quite real and then sort of this is a translation that was then used for a website. And then finally, and I'm mindful of time. So finally work building. So this is really what the current seminar is very concerned with, the Conversion of Truth for Show. This is the idea, okay, you know we have to take this sort of reality from the scan and then what else, what more can we do with it? And I think the foam world is sort of the beginning of that sort of like, you know taking something pre-existing but then creating something entirely new out of it. So sort of thinking of three scanning of like assets or something that you have in your library and you can deploy for your designs you can deploy it to build a universe on its own. And you know, in a way as architects we are doing that but we often don't think of it as world building. It's a term that comes more from video games and from, you know, really or from writing novels it's sort of this idea that we kind of think of every aspect of a universe and then try to come and design for it. And so kind of switching perspectives as architects and thinking from like this sort of narrative point of view I think it's really interesting because you start to think beyond, you know you start to think about who are the people who are inhabiting it and you can design that and you can think about, you know the sounds, the spaces and I mean this can get incredibly sophisticated. We're focusing on HOPs because it's a really easily accessible platform. Mozilla HOPs is kind of like a web VR platform that's been developed for a couple of years but really has, you know, become I don't know, actually it's still not mainstream I would say it's sort of like become more mainstream, maybe in the last year. But so here you see a screenshot of an event that was just opened last week. So my friend Beatrice Galile she curated this event called The World Around and we talked about, you know what we could do for it. And so we built The World Around as a physical space so here you see the map of the world with all the speakers that were part of that conference there are around 20 speakers that all speak within a day and have short presentations. I think that was part of it at some point. So, you know, everyone has a kind of like a TED Talk type of 15 minute talk but usually it's in person of course and this year we're online so we're like thinking about how can we create a space that can become a social space during the events so people can go hang out. So this was the space and you see the people moving around and you see, you know, basically each speaker from the conference had a sort of label and was located on the world map where they actually were physically located at the time when they were speaking. And so in a way, the physical distances that were kind of that are imperceptible to us something were made probable because you actually as an actor had to move over to, you know, go from Europe to Africa or something. So it was like a kind of also a diagram in a way of space but also, yeah, it became sort of this this maze, maze like experience. And the three, the three scanning aspect was here was really quite small but it was actually, I think the most engaging one of all the different stages. So this was Ensemble is a Spanish architecture firm and they submitted a three scan for us to include into our, you know, we basically we just got assets from people but they submitted a scan of the caves. The whole project that they presented was about this beautiful cave that they had refurbished to become an apartment. And so here we basically took their scan and made a part of the world that people were able to go inside in 3D. And so I'll finish with actually current student work which amazed me because this was done after only two weeks of class. And so the idea was that people scan their own locations where they are in the world, right? And so, which at the moment is everywhere and so they uploaded this tool, this platform and we're able to walk around into each other's spaces. And it was quite incredible because, you know they really kind of created spaces that were you could really sort of imagine a totally different way of how and as you see those scans are rough, right? They're not like sophisticated. They have to be some of them are probably much nicer before but they have to be optimized because we uploaded them to the web. Obviously if somebody would just screen share or show you a rendering you could make it a much higher resolution. So it's kind of like a trade-off again you have to make of reality versus accessibility. But so we're trying to kind of find these interesting moments where those who are, you know we're probably kind of like a satisfying middle ground. And so this is, he came to me as a drone and so he scanned this whole neighborhood which is really incredible. And here another one by Jordan who scanned a whole block in New York City and we're able to walk around in that as well. Okay. How is the one doing? Are you, let me just stop sharing. Sorry, it was a little bit long but is everyone still ready to go into the into the please scan showcase? Yeah, okay. So here's the link. I'm just gonna post it into... So turn your microphones off when you go into the world and just talk to us here. If you're, if you want to say something just talk to us on Zoom, not in the house world. So when you go enter, now you say enter, enter, enter. And it's a bit heavy because there are three scans so they're not super easy to load. So if it loads for a minute or two, that's okay. Just let it load. It'll eventually hopefully finish cross the available. Okay. So I'll also screen share with myself because it's, I think it timed out when I was gone. Okay. So I see there's already a lot of people in here. I'll give you a little tour. So if you're, if you're coming in, I am this sort of, well, you can see my name. I'm Bika. But even if you don't see me, so yeah, people are already moving around very deeply. So most of you are probably on your desktop. If you've played video games at some point as a kid, you just move around with the W keys and then D to move forward, W move forward, D to move right, A to move left and S to move back. The tour starts in this three scanned house. So when you come in, it's kind of like on your left side. I'm going to go inside now. Yeah. And if you have a hard time getting through the door, just press the G button that turns off your gravity and then you'll be able to, oh, I should actually screen share this. So it's recorded. It's not showing on screen, right? Okay. I think it might be too much for the graphics card. Okay. Now you can see it on the screen, right? All right. So yeah. So as I mentioned before, this is the little house and the cat skills and I just uploaded the interior. Oh yeah. This is a little jacket with the screen share. I think I might have to not screen share. I'll just make a recording of that for posterity. But yeah. So here you can see all the mess that was there when we scanned the space. There was a big couch in the middle that kind of cut out just to be able to see the whole space. And yeah, the kitchen is there with all the things. I mean, this is again, already quite optimized because it was, because it's uploaded to the web. It looked quite a lot better in the original version, but it does look like a little bit creepy, I find, because it has kind of scanning artifact. And then when you go into the next one, next door, I'm gonna just press the G button and fly over. Hi, CC. Okay. Here's a bunch of people in here already. So here you see, this is the kind of clean space, right? It's like a totally different environment. In a way, it feels more comfortable actually. It's not, you don't have to kind of creep factor. And yeah, sort of works, works a lot better. And then, so I think that, you know, the maybe most interesting one really is the, Matadero. So it was a cloudy day, which is always the best way to actually scan anything. I see all of you are floating in there. I'm gonna stop sharing screen and just walk you through it and be there at the same time. So yeah, it works a lot better. As you can see, it's abandoned at the moment. And, you know, if you float above, you can also see that basically the scan really is just from the sides. So actually, if you walk around on eye level, it's a pretty convincing kind of scan. But if you walk, if you float above, you see all the things that I'm missing. And the main thing is that you can go inside. So the, you know, the in between is actually not scanned. So you kind of see the backside of the front and the backside of the interior space. So that one is the most surreal space that you can go in. And then the interior space isn't as nice in terms of quality, but it gives you a pretty good idea in terms of like how the space looked like. And yeah, the last one is more for fun. So this was kind of like, you know, the sort of surreal moment of scale. So I scanned this sort of mushroom, my cereal mushroom. And if you press the G button, you can just go inside and then be in this like incredible dome space. So I found it kind of cool because it's sort of architecture, kind of unintentional Baroque architecture when you look up. And it, you know, it's really just a tiny sort of mushroom that was grown in quarantine in the first few months at home, so it was like this size. And suddenly it becomes this like really big dome. So it's sort of like three scanning as a kind of, I would say emotional exploration of geometry and materiality and so on. Yeah, that's it. Sorry for not being able to screen share. Well, thank you so much. Amazing talks, really great. And so many, many topics and questions and discussions that we can have. I think that, I mean, we can do it. I don't know, I hear myself. I think I'm both in the, in Zoom and in, let me close the... Yeah, okay. Sorry. So thank you so much, Vika and Carlos. It was amazing that you framed this discussion in an amazing way. If anyone wants to unmute and make questions, just do it normally as we do. Also, you can write them in the chat and we can read them or... But I'd like to start with something that it's connecting both presentations and when Carlos was talking of these displacements, you went to a series of moments in which you were reflecting of how objects multiply, how objects relate to context, how by displacing from one context to another, there are operations that are critical that have to do with the material durability, with the way that they're socialized, with tensions that could be repaired, like this process of repatriation or multiplication. And in a way, we could read this in two ways. One could be that there's something like an object and then it's, let's say replicated, let's say. But in my opinion, there's also second possibility that comes from both presentations, which is thinking that the contemporary notion of an entity, it's multiple, it's trans-material, it's something that is loaded politically as it travels from one version of itself to other from this process of multiplication and reconvening of the multiplication, contextualize multiple contextualizing processes, objects operating simultaneously in different critical grounds by these multiplications. So what we were, and that's something that we were experiencing here very clearly. We were both at the Zoom and we were at this Habs Mozilla space. We were also multiplying ourselves, right? We were thinking of this avatar. So my question is this, I have a feeling that what you showed us today is how we inhabit the, how we're part of forms of existence that are shaped by multiplication, by this multi-medium, I would say, quality of objects and it's there precisely in the way that these multiples are relating to each other constructing any entity as let's say ambivalent, as multi-located, is where basically entities operate politically. I know this is kind of a long thing, but I think this is crucial. It's basically fundamental change in the way we relate to the connection of objects and context in which basically you would be saying that the objects and the context are kind of bodied in this process of multiplication. And I think that that's a fundamental change from the, for instance, the way that modern architecture was operating in euclidean spaces or in which we would imagine even a kind of regional contextualism that was also very important at GESAP at the moment. So all this is kind of a totally different way of thinking of objects, right? Vika, you want to, or should I? I like, thank you, Andres. I would like to, later, I would like to comment on Vika's lecture. I enjoyed it very much. So thank you for your presentation, Vika. Andres, you are completely right. I mean, we are talking about ways of multiplying not only the object, but the experience we have of the object. And this is very much related, in my opinion, to the technology's capacity to activate this multiplication. So very quickly, as an example, when this famous essay by Walter Benjamin, back in 1930s, when he was like saying, copies are, well, I would put it in a way, very simply, copies are fundamentally something that has less value to the original because you are not in front of the original. So you cannot experience the aura, this kind of mystical experience you can have only in front of the original. Maybe that is because the technology of the time was actually not capable of doing representations or reenactments of an object in an efficient way. On the contrary, with a different case, nobody complains when we go to see the play, a Shakespeare play, for example, that is being reenacted over and over again, no one complains that this is a reproduction of something that is not the original because the reproduction we are capable of put in play, it's kind of very efficient by itself. So this idea of copies, it's also related to the copiosity, this copious idea of that something, if it's worth, if it's valuable enough, should be and must be replicated multiple times. Yeah, it's also right now, but I think one way to frame the question, and I think Carl's work touches on that very much as well is this idea of access, right? Like museums, I think have long been aware of the need of access, but it was often too complicated or expensive or difficult to make things actually more accessible beyond the people who are physically able, and they're able to come to the museum. And so I think what the pandemic showed us also is, suddenly we're all physically disabled from coming to the museum. And so it sort of created an urgency for access and maybe not even enough still, but we've learned that we can change our protocols actually in a way that can be more inclusive and to sort of multiply ourselves in ways that can be more accessible. And I think that's a big question right now in terms of the future of that, like how much of that can we harness for whenever things are back to normal? And I think with some of the projects of Faktum Art that they're doing are really, they're doing a sort of very refined service to that because you're creating access in a way that people are not even aware. Because they maybe don't, it's so perfect that it doesn't even matter necessarily if they're looking at the original to them or it does. I don't know, it's kind of like a, I think that's an interesting question, right? Like if we're talking about all around these questions, but I think with access it comes sort of, yeah, it comes, it's a complex equation in terms of like how complicated is the multiplication of different things and how much quality or loss of quality do you accept in order to make it more accessible? So I think that's always, that's a political question that you're talking about, I think to me, or that's how I understand it. I mean, I wanna open up, I'm sorry, I want everybody else to ask a question, but I think from that conversation, in terms of multiplicity, it's almost like if the other versions, the multiplied versions of ourselves or of whatever it is as you basically now, there's like a certain threshold of technology in which technology is able to produce rights to the multiplied copy, so to speak, that different versions of ourselves cannot have, saying my form as myself sitting in my apartment versus a copy of myself in this Zoom meeting versus a copy of myself in Mozilla Hubs or whatever. And it's, I think as you sort of really start to explore these platforms, there's so many interesting ways to expand access, but also really to create like new sets of rights and politics that start to cross between these different copies of ourselves. And that's where it's super exciting, but maybe that's more of a one. Sorry, you wanted to... No, no, no. Thank you for your comment. I think that, for example, what museums are realizing right now with the pandemics and cultural institutions in general is that they didn't have the proper digital assets to actually attract people to other experiences beyond the actual visit to the building, to the museum. What I like very much about Bica's work, for example, is that she's exploring the possibilities and the limitations of the 3D technology to actually engage with objects of interest. And this is something that I always like to remark that the act of 3D scanning something, it's an active act of how you perceive and how you actually understand that object because all the decisions that you have to take all the different strategies that you are putting into action when you are planning the scanning of something, there's a lot of decisions you have to take about how you interpret that thing. And that is filtered by your cultural understanding of the object, about how others value that particular object. And this is why understanding documentation, not as a previous act before doing something, but as the act, as the action itself to actually interpret and communicate and share that particular object, I think that that's very interesting. And it's also part of what we do and what Bica was doing, I think. I have two follow-up questions. So the first is on the question of multiplicity and I wonder if the multiple can ever reduce the value of the original. That's one question. And then the second question I have is in terms of, we mentioned cultural differences. And I wonder if you seem to have both of you have seemed to have been all over the world. And I wonder if you've seen different responses to the multiples and the originals, the digital, the replica. Yeah, I can definitely speak to that. I mean, it's... So the question, can it ever affect the original? I mean, absolutely yes. But I think that's sort of like the preconceived idea that there's an original that should not be copied and that is actually put into law through copyright. I think what we sometimes, what is actually less intuitive or maybe counterintuitive is that copies authorize the original. So the more copies you have of somebody, the more you've seen something reproduced. And I think it's very self-evident when you think of social media, if you see something multiplied a million times in a photo, you'll have more desire to go see it. And so it actually kind of elevates the original even more because it's been replicated or copied so many times. And so even, yeah, but I think there's lots and lots of examples where actually the universe is true and where the copies kind of authorize the original or if you think of fashion, you know, when you have a very expensive fashion brand, they pretend they don't like the copies, but the copies are actually also compliment for them. So if their brand wouldn't get copied, that would actually mean that something is wrong. So it's sort of, you know, there's a kind of economy of original and copy and the copies are kind of holding up the original. In terms of cultural approaches, absolutely different ones. I mean, there's a really interesting by Bianca Bosker where she basically talks about sort of different approach to copying in China in terms of like the copy being seen as an art in itself or as sort of culturally sort of seen as something that is a good reproduction is just as valuable as the original in a sense. And so she talks specifically about architectural copies and the sort of phenomena, sort of copy cities. And, you know, there seems to be definitely a kind of different notion, right, generally between sort of the idea of the East and the West in terms of how they see copies. And I think a lot of, but even in terms of, even within, you know, each of these cultures over time it has changed, I think copies. And that is the kind of obsession with authenticity, the original and the author is also something you could say relatively new within architecture and within Western culture, so to say. So it's those terms and definitions and cultural ideas are constantly shifting, I would say. And even within myself, right, thinking more about copies, they have shifted too. So it's, yeah. Absolutely. And it's also, I think very quickly a matter of quality because copies is something that it's been happening in, let's say in Western civilization forever. The Romans were copying the Greeks, et cetera. The problem is where when, for example, in industrial times we were understanding a reproduction as a kind of serial reproduction in which it's lowering the quality of what you are reproducing and therefore associating copies are a simplification of the original. So when that happens, that could be in a way diminishing the significance and the value of the original. But when you are trying to do either a virtual or a physical copy that is not a simplification but it can carry all the weight, all the complexities, character of the original, there's no way I can see you are doing something different than putting like adding value to the original. Well, maybe this is the moment to close this event. Also Carlos must be quite late because you're in Madrid now, right? I am, yeah, yeah, but I'm perfect. So we can do what you want. Well, thank you so much. It was an amazing discussion. Really, really thoughtful and challenging for the way that we would think of materiality, context, architecture. And also I must say it brought to me a great energy, the fact that you've been developing these tools and that you part of your endeavor, it's also developing all the tools and questioning the ones that you use. And it's quite exemplary and convincing the way that you've been working. I will thank you very much and maybe see if you want to close the event. Sure, I mean, for sure. I mean, I'm just going to echo Andreas for thinking both of you guys for sharing your incredible work. Their conversation could really go on all nights but we'll let people off into their own Zoom copy version worlds elsewhere and we hope to... Yeah, multiple of you are going to exist now in the other space, yeah. We'll be online somewhere one day and, you know, ever. Anyhow, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.