 Good evening, Sen Lusia, and thank you for joining us for this panel discussion in commemoration of International Women's Day, which was celebrated on March 8th, 2018. I am your moderator this evening, Nicole MacDonald. Our theme for this evening is society's role in protecting our children from sexual abuse, which we'll see us discussing a multifaceted types of topics on various areas. Before I introduce you to this evening's panel, we wanted to start with the voices of our youth. I now invite you to view a presentation by the St. Joseph's Convent Theatre Arts Group. Concentration, 64, no repeat or hesitation. I go first. We're equal. I want to start. Let me along. Concentration, 64. Let's play mommy and daddy. In the minimo, catch a fella by his toe. If you want to let him go, in the minimo. More, you go beat the children out. That's you. William, you do that. No! I don't want to be the father. Well, it's only half to boy's head. You and Echo, and he's not bigger than you, so you have to beat the dad. And what Echo will be? Then with the children, you and Michelle and the rest of you go play like you play all your friends and things. Okay? So play over him and the rest of you go play head. And where are the children going? The children could go by their mother and father or they could stay over head. Good, but they have to come by me. My showcase, let me go. Yes, you. I freed you. You have one shot for a little boy. Mommy, you do nothing. And what happened? Nothing. She just started to cry. So we was playing dolly house and William tried to wash her hand and she started to cry. Y'all sure that's what happened? Y'all sure that I let her do she nothing? Miss Doris. Now all of you make so much noise. Yes, Miss Doris. I don't have time to see about you now. I'm too busy. You see, you and me are playing with you. Yes, you two crying, crying. Me, I'm playing with you. Exo, you're nothing. And you run and go tell your mother. Yes. When you get big, you go see. That's sweet because I'm bigger than all year. And he's the father and used the daughter. He not supposed to kiss you. Father, don't kiss his daughter. Just kiss me. Yes. Tell she that William tried to kiss you. It's for different boys. Boys. Want to be the daddy. Anybody else? How anybody else? It only have two boys there. William and Echo, make up your mind. Which one? Okay, what's the difference? Kiss on mouth, kiss on face. My mother's safe. Let me play before I get dark. Or before partying with the commentary. Making too much noise. Right. Let me play school over and when we reach home. That's stupid. She only tell you that's why you wouldn't let nobody kiss you. Well, me don't want nobody to kiss me neither. And Echo kissed her yesterday. But not on my mouth. Yes, stupid. She's like passing. Sherrod bread, kiss kiss. Sherrod bread. Kiss kiss. Sherrod bread. Boys boy. Echo kiss your sister. No. If somebody tried to only kiss you, you wouldn't like it. But who says so? If your father tried to only hold you and kiss you. What you gonna do? My mother wouldn't tell my father nothing. Why? My mother would just want to come and want to buff me. She doesn't always blame me for everything. But how she can do that. It's not your fault. You don't know my mother. Anything happen, she does jump and blame me. She does never blame my father. She does only blame me. So if I go and tell she. Is daddy who touch me up? She not going to listen. She going to watch me as if I'm mad. And say, what happened child? You going off? You know how she like to talk. Remember the time when daddy had break the law? She come blame me. Juliet. Juliet come here. Who break the law? As sure as you. That's how she know it's daddy who break it. She would just stop to get on. As if it's I who do something bad. But my mother. If I only go and tell my mother that. She would get mad and want to get paranoid. What is? Nothing. You always stop in the talk talk some stupid question. But I don't. Paranoid. Paranoid. All you just get on there. If she don't understand. How you expect she to know? Well. That is she business. Anyway. The talk not going sweet. No. I don't remember what I was saying. You was telling us what your mother would say. Right. My mother. So stupid. I can't tell you what my mother would say. She will get so stupid. Come. There you is me. I'll show you how. Okay. What to say? What happened? Okay. Mommy. Daddy. Go ahead now. Tell me how. But I don't know what to say. How do you mean you don't know what to say? If your father come and try and think about it. What you go do? I will run and I will go and I will tell my mommy. Yes. But what you go tell she? Well. Well. I will wait for a day. When daddy not home. And then I will go and I will tell mommy. Mommy. Daddy will interfere with me. Yes. But how you go tell she? Well. Well I will say mommy. Mommy. Um. Me. Me can't go tell me mother. So who you go tell? I will go. And I will tell me teacher. Miss Richard. They wanted us to teach all of me English. I will go and tell Miss Richard. And Miss Richard will go and tell mommy. And Miss Richard will go and tell mommy. Because mommy doesn't mean nothing I say about daddy. Okay. Well play with Miss Richard. What you go tell your mother? I will go. And I will knock on the door at home. And I will say. Mommy. Juliet say. How you could say that? Miss Richard. It's not you. I will go home. And I will knock on the door. And I will ask for mommy. And I will say. Good evening Mrs Ramsey. Good evening. I don't know if Juliet ever told you about me. But I miss Richard's. And I'm Juliet's English teacher. I brought her home from school earlier today. Because the principal sent me. What happened? Something happened to Juliet's? Well. Well yes. Somebody hit she? Well no. And science say if anybody hit me child. It will be me and them. What happened child? Somebody hit you? It doesn't feel as because your father is living there. And that's afraid to go and make noise. Nobody hit her. So what did this happen? It is more a serious matter than that Mrs Ramsey. Can I come inside? I would like to talk to you in private. What it is happened. Calm down Mrs Ramsey. Juliet has brought to my attention. Something very, very serious that has been happening to her. And she let me know in confidence that. That she is being sexually molested. Sex? What? I don't understand. Yes. I'm afraid that she is having sexual relationship. With who? With someone you know quite well. With who? I want you to be very patient and understanding. Because this could have very serious implications for him as well as the child. Who you talking about? Your husband Mrs Ramsey. Mr Ramsey. What happened to him? It is he who has been having the relations with Juliet. What you saying? Are you crazy? Yes. Who say that? Juliet say that? Yes. Juliet. What did you tell this woman? I want to hear from you. This is between me and she. I want to know what man they take you. You have to say something like that. Mrs Ramsey. I say I don't want to hear from you. You stupid enough to believe this line right? I'm pretty sure. Mrs Ramsey. Don't but Mrs Ramsey me. You is a big teacher and you have been this little retching she lie. Mrs Ramsey it's not a lie. What happened Juliet? What happened? Your father not nice to you? He does treat you bad? You know this child's father? No Mrs Ramsey. Well I know this child's father. This child's father is my husband. You hear me? My husband and I know my husband. I know him better than you and he not going to do that something like that. You know it's a man man. You know crazy? He not say he don't have a wife you understand? Not to say he don't have a wife. So it's a lie she lie and somebody do you child? Somebody do you something? Some one of these teachers in the school would like to take advantage of the little children. Mrs Ramsey. You're afraid to say that so you can't make up this lie? I let my house be difficult for you to believe something like this about someone who you love so much. But if I can finish proof of what I'm saying will you be able to at least consider it? Madam. Miss. Whatever your name is. You expect me to believe that my husband, the man I married to for all these years. You expect me to believe that he doing this nasty nasty own daughter? This could have serious implications on your family. Look. I saying this for the last time. I'm not going to believe this. What I have to find out is why my daughter. Something get pushed into some kind of madness. Some kind of opium to say something like this. I don't know what possess she. But if you want to help me get this devil spirit out of she. Dread of sense. I will deal with this matter in my own way. I have nothing more to say. She too dread. Are you lucky? Yes. My mother believe in anything about me. And instead of blaming my father she blaming me. If something like that had to happen. As soon as she find out you're going to her she. Why you do it? Why you do it? I don't want to hear. The same thing your grandmother always used to say. You know good. Don't tell me. What kind of daughter I have. If you're taking your own father what it left for you to do. And then if you and then if so. All the time I'm looking at you. As a decent young girl. I could imagine the amount of money must be taken already. So then why you let him do it? That is what I want to know. You don't know? That is all you could say to me is you don't know? He want you down? Eh? He force you? So then why you let him do it? That is what I want to know. Why you let him do it? Yeah but. You see. My mommy. If you let her quarrel in the house. If she only hear about something like that. She went for daddy one time. Why? What? Why? What? Why Terrence? Why? What happened? What's the matter? Why you do it? Do what? Don't tell me. What's the matter my dear? Don't touch me. What's wrong? What's wrong with you? About. Look. Whatever it is. You know I love you. Come here and tell me. Don't touch me. Get your. Stop playing games and say what you want to say. And say what you mean. I mean having sex with her Terrence. What? And you really believe it. So I shouldn't believe it? Don't play with me. I want to know what you think. What it matter what I. So what you like for other people. I shouldn't believe it. It matters. It matters to me. Not just that just out of the blues you jump up and believe something like this. I shame. Shame not for myself. I shame for you. I shame out here. Without a signal. Without as much as an admission. Or defense from the man who you have married for all these years. There's something to make me believe it not true. How are you talking about what your mother would do. What your father would say. But yes I tell you my mother will dread. My mother would. She dreaded. Yes but what about you? Tell me teacher. Miss Richards. But suppose you can't do like Juliet and you can't go and tell no teacher or you have no body to tell no friend to tell what you go do. If it's me. Not me Nami. I tell you nobody nothing. I go afraid. Imagine my father will hold me down one night when nobody at home. Or suppose somebody find out. I don't say nothing. But me understand you know. If you don't tell nobody. He will want to come and do it again. I know a girl who used to go to junior second all the way and she make a baby for she father. Well. It's not she real father you know. It's she stepfather but it's the same thing. I don't care. I'm not telling anybody. Suppose me mother find out. Or my best friend. What go happen. You know how much people go be talking about me. If you don't just stupid yes. Me I care. Let them talk. I go play as if I don't know what they talking about. To besides my father will never do me that. But suppose just suppose it really happen. What you go do. How you go feel. How it could happen. When I see him come in and running like I am no one. These girls don't teach yes. Just pretend they are no. Just in case. Yes. Just in case. If it really happen. Yes. If it really happen. If it happen to me. If it happen to me. I go dead. No. I don't care. Not if listen you. Here go be the last. Listen. And take better dead. What to do. And take better dead. Everybody go be laughing at me behind my back. I don't care. I go kill myself. No. Much to ask God for forgiveness and start again. Listen. Suppose I get pregnant. Suppose I make a child. Is my child. Is my father child. My father is the father. My father is the grandfather. He has his better dead and gone. I don't care. I go kill myself. No. This husband mother living. She had a baby before she father. And now she's a successful woman working for big money. Who I go tell. I can't tell mommy. I know I can't tell my mother. What she go do. How she go feel. Is she step child. Is she grandchild. Is she child father. Is she husband. I don't care. I go kill myself. No. My pregnant. Suppose I make a child. What kind of child I go have. The child go come out the farm. I go kill myself. The thing about the child go come out the farm. Go see. What my boyfriend go see. Is he step child. The child father. Is he father in law. How he could trust me again. How he could want me again. Which man go want me again. What is the use. Who I go talk to. I don't care. I go kill myself. No. Go and tell your school teacher. My father does have sex with me. What? My father does have sex with me. Your father begs with you. What your father begs with you go. Pick up and go mumble in front of me. Go and tell your mother. She wants to understand. Mommy. Time with me alone. When you went by Tandy Elfie to spend the weekend. When you and daddy did fall out. Look. You don't have homework to do. I don't know about your father this hour. Because I don't know where the hell he gone since morning. Go and tell your guidance officer. Morning Jeff. You look so pretty this morning. When was the last time that somebody told you that you have very sexy lips. Tell your father to stop. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. He's not a beast. Go and tell your best friend. Go and tell your godmother. Tell your school principal. Go and see family planning. Ask for the halfway house. Your grandmother. She's the best person. She's all she wants to understand. Your grandmother. Your social studies teacher. Your church minister. Your pastor. They will be a man. Try the Lord. Your boyfriend. Miss Daisy, you're living up the hill. The shango priest. A psycho. Little child. Call the plastic police. During this week. When? Apparently. It has been happening for the past two to three years now. How old is she now? Fifteen. And now you come to report it. What do you want me to do now? Well, we would assume that as you are the law. You have some measures in place to ensure that not only justice is being served. But some media measures as well. So that. Madam. Wait, wait, wait, wait. My damn university graduates. Hold up on the big one and them. Look at this. Let me find out for myself what's going on. But it seems that you're inability to act on the evidence. Hold on. Let me take my time and see about this case. Right? Look. Come. What's your name again? Sharon. Right. Sharon what? Macintosh. Macintosh. So you sure this really happened? Sergeant. Are you doubting the child's word? We have to ask yes. Even if she's stepfather it is a different person altogether. But if she's real father it is a crime it is a sin. But if she's stepfather well you never know if this young stepfather nowadays. Does it as difficult as it might be for you to believe? It is the child's real father. Madam. The kind of complaint I get since I work in here I believe in anything. Now go ahead. The first time it happened he hold you down or you force you to do it. You can remember? Yes. Well tell me how it happened go ahead. Go ahead. Tell him in your papers I'm sure he's bound to understand. Now you're working madam. Now you're working. Go ahead. Well one night when it was me alone home daddy come home and... He was drunk. No I don't I don't know. Usually when they didn't do this kind of things it is always be drunk. Must be take two drinks to batten the head. Go ahead. Well I was in the bedroom and daddy come in the bedroom. And he hold me around my waist and I thought he was making joke. But after that when it was me alone home. How much time this happened? On over ten to fifteen occasions sergeant. Wait wait where your murder was when all this was going on. Where your murder was your murder. Where your child put him in court bring him up. Prosecution would like to strongly object to the line of questioning. And attitude being displayed by our opponents on the other side. What is the problem now Mr. Ramlokhan? So the defense is attempting to make it seem as if it is the child who is on trial and not the father. You worry too much. I need not remind you where the owners of the responsibility lies. We are still a free country so and one still enjoys the privilege of being innocent until proven guilty. Trust me Mr. Ramlokhan. I am here to see to it that your client's rights are not trampled upon. Go ahead. Let us return to the night of the first encounter with your father. Let us call it that you said he was not drunk. No. You said that he did not force you. You said he did not use any physical force. No. Yet you easily submitted. You gave in. Why? Were you afraid of it? No. You quite readily and willingly gave in without fear, without shame, without the slightest trace of remorse. You were willing to jump into bed with a man who had given you life itself, who had seen that you knew right from wrong, who had sent you to school and who had ensured that you have everything that you have here now. And you have caused him to commit this wicked act to now have to face the embarrassment of the entire community. By your shameless and your careless act, you have caused your father, your own father, the man who gave you life itself as it would. You caused him to commit this wicked and defiled in the eyes of the entire law abiding community. The abuser, you are the abuser, you are not the victim, you are the victor and you are not the vanquished. You are the victorious. You are not the fortunate. Man is not at fault. You are not! Yes, again, before you can exit. Before you can vote. Don't worry. I shall pick up your case at the next possible opportunity. The matter shall be put on file and we'll contact you as soon as an opportunity moment occurs. He is not a beast. He is not a beast. He is not a beast. The more we are together, the merrier we shall be. Ladies and gentlemen, the theater arts group of the St. Joseph's convent. Let's take a moment to reflect and let some of the issues which were brought up by the students resonate with us. When we come back, we'll meet our panel. Your old child, she's driving me crazy. I just don't know what to do. All that you need is some good licks to wake up. Alice, ignore the counseling pension given. Government employees have free access to professional counseling services under the Employee Assistance Program known as EAP. EAP? What's that? Not me that telling people my business. Listen to me, Alice. I was struggling with my child. I made an appointment to see an EAP counselor and I was very satisfied with the service that I received. And you know what? Up to a day like today, my information remains confidential. Cox, how come nobody in the office knew anything about your counseling? Ah, that's because EAP counselors, they work under strict clauses of confidentiality. I know you know what confidential means. EAP providing professional counseling services? How much is it? Well, the counseling is free. Free for you, free for your child. And you know what? Your information remains confidential. Call the EAP unit at the Ministry of the Public Service. Telephone number 468-2269 for more information. EAP Works, let it work for you. I noticed that you built your retaining wall on my property. You'll have to give me my land back or compensate me for that. My contractor isn't dumb. I trust that he will not build anything on your property. Where is your proof? Let's go to court. This situation does not require you to go to court. Looks like we have to go through mediation here. Mediation is a way people resolve conflicts like this. Someone, a third party, comes to speak to both parties. This person is called the mediator. The mediator is impartial. He or she makes sure that communication between both parties is effective and efficient. So, the mediator is a judge? No, the mediator is not a judge. Mediators, unlike judges, do not decide cases or impose settlements. Let me get a mediator to handle this retaining wall and that kitchen. Kitchen? Yes, your kitchen also falls on my land. Let me call the mediator. When you're out at sea, there are no service stations along the way or supermarkets for a quick stop if you need something. It is essential that everything you would need while at sea is on the boat before you leave. That's why pre-sea checks are so important. Checks should be carried out by more than one person to ensure that all essentials are on board. Everything on board? Yeah, everything here. So, what's on board? Yeah, what's on board? Pre-sea checks should include food stores, extra water and fuel, navigational equipment, safety gear and communication equipment. How can you light those up? Before heading out to sea, always ensure that all equipment is in working order. You are stocked up on food and also extra fuel. Call the lighthouse to inform them of your voyage plan and inform someone responsible of your departure time and estimate the time of arrival back on shore. For more information on obtaining a license to fish, contact the Department of Fisheries at 468-4143. Welcome back to our panel discussion in commemoration of International Women's Day. Like many of you in St. Lucia watching at home and our panel today, I saw this skit from the St. Joseph's Convent Theatre Arts Group for the first time and it was quite difficult not to get emotional about some of the issues which were raised by the students. I want to extend an immense thanks to the students of the St. Joseph's Convent Group and the teachers as well for your absolute bravery today. And I want to invite the audience on the panel to give them a round of applause. I also want to get an immediate reaction from our panel in terms of some of the issues that were raised by the students. So let me introduce them. They've been waiting quite a while to be introduced. We have with us Miss Virginia Joseph, a counseling psychologist. Thank you for being with us today. We have Miss Diane Garcia from the Organization Women in Action. Thank you for being here, Diane. We have Mr. Cameron Law of the Royal St. Lucia Police Force. Thank you for being with us, sir. And of course, we have Pastor Lenox Maxius from the Lafayee Pentecostal Church. Thank you for being with us. Immediately, I want to get a response so that the students can hear some of the issues that they raised and the effect it had on our panel. I want to start with you, Diane, just to give us an idea of what kind of emotions it evoked in you to watch the skit today. Watching the skit, yes, I did get a bit emotional because I have been dealing with a lot of the issues and a lot of the things that came out of the skit is really factual. It is sad, but it is true. So it was just a reminder as to all of the serious issues that we have in St. Lucia with regards to child abuse. And it's the constant thing that we hear, the constant neglect, the constant abuse of our children. Sadly, I know we spoke about the daddy, but we also have the police officers, the dance teachers, the people that we trust with our children who abuse them in that way. So yes, it was very emotional for me. It brought back a lot of memories. And it also brought back to the effect that this situation has on family. It divides the family. You have the mother, the father, the auntie, everybody is divided. So that brings back a lot of memories. Thank you, Diane. Constable Law, definitely towards the end of the skit we did see the police perspective in terms of how some situations happen when people come and make those kinds of reports to the police. Is this something that resonates with you? Well, very interesting. When I sat and I looked at the kids in action and a lot of what was portrayed is what really happens in terms of some of the reasons why you don't get the reports coming in. Some of the reasons why even when the reports come in, it's withdrawn even while it's in the system. The police aspect of it, yes, you do find some of us as police officers not knowing how to relate to situations of that kind when the reports come in. So it does say a bit and it tells you that there needs to be a little more education where the police is concerned and even the public at large. So I would say it was very, very, very, very real in terms of how it was portrayed. Yes, Pastor Maxius, I want to go to you. I mean the church resonated throughout the skit. We saw references that the girls made to go tell your pastor, go tell your religious leaders and the response was not very good. Are these some of the issues that you deal with on a daily basis in terms of some of your members of the church, or even persons who are not members of the church coming to you with such stories? First of all, the skit that the girls did a while ago is kind of frightening. Yes, we've had situations like these to deal with. I was hoping for the skit that there was someone playing the role of a pastor to hear what would be his reaction to that. But it tells a frightening story and that's happening in most of our communities. The other part of the thing is the mothers respond to the child's complaint. We have just troubled on hand. I'm trying to pick a case out and I know we are on television. But yes, I've had situations like that to deal with and I put parents, both parents, to sit down to discuss this. It never ended the way it should these days now because like the girl said in the play, go tell your mother now if the mother is not prepared to take it forward, what's the next thing? And some problems we have is that the mother tried to shield the father. I've known of a situation where the mother said when he's thrown into prison, who's going to take care of me? So it's like the child becomes the sacrificial lamb for the sake of the mother's upkeep. And so I don't know, we really need to sensitize our communities. I don't know if it's through committee meetings, parents, step-dads and moms. People need to realize that David said one thing that's very important. Some so on 27 David said children are an heritage of the Lord. And the fruit of the womb is his reward. Parents need to begin to realize that children are a gift from God to us. Now we don't go about brutalizing gifts, we take special care of gifts. And so I don't know, I'm hoping that we be able to penetrate the lives of parents, both moms and dads that they come to realize that child is a precious thing in the eyes of God. One of the issues you just raised is something I hope we can discuss later on in terms of what contributes to the behavior of some parents when their children come to them and report sexual abuse. We have so many issues that are tied up in that including finances, poverty, housing that leads to child sexual abuse. But I want to go to Ms. Joseph just to get, I saw you looking so intently at the skit and I saved you for last on purpose because I know you can get into the mind of what actually happens to a victim. Can you tell us how you felt about the skit? I must say that it was well-excited. I mean they display so many different aspects of when you look at overall child sexual abuse from the reaction of the parent, from the reaction of the child and society and the whole like teachers, those who are quite involved with that child. But importantly they touch base on things in terms of the reaction and really important the reaction of the parent. And this is one of the big issues that we are faced with. When a child is, for example, they disclose that there have been, whether molested or there have been actually been victims, the reaction most parents, the way they react will determine the outcome for the child. Whether that child will be, for example, depends on suffer more psychological trauma, it goes to the courts, they get support and so forth. And another area again that they spoke about is in terms of the signs and it was well-excited. A lot of the time parents are very, very much, I would say, they are not observant, they are not mindful, so there is no awareness. And a lot of the time you find children who actually displays those signs that they are, and they do it in the skits. You saw the behaviors, for example, while they were playing, there was one report, the kiss and so forth. All those things are like signs and they really demonstrated that parents need to be very mindful of. And as our colleagues say, I think education is one of the key things here. Because most parents do not know how to respond, they don't know how to react, they don't know what to look for because of lack of knowledge. So I believe it's not only about educating the child on how to react when somebody approached them or when somebody is behaving in such an appropriate manner, but also how the parent educated the parent on what they need to look for and how they need to interact with the child as well to be very observant of those symptoms which most times they are actually displayed. And most of the time there is the symptoms, it's just that most parents are so busy with their lives and their own social issues as well. Because sometimes parents themselves are victims as well of abuse and those things just slip by and very negligent of that. Thank you very much to the panel for your point of view on the skit. Thank you once again to the St. Joseph's Convention students. You guys were amazing. Thank you very much. And I hope that you take this on the road so that other persons can see some of the issues that you raised. I want to get into our topic now for the day. Society's role in protecting our children from sexual abuse. I want to get straight into it. Do any of you think that we have failed or we have succeeded in terms of protecting our children? I want to start with the pastor. Personally I believe that we have failed. And I remember when I grew up, you know, and don't get me wrong, this is an age-long situation. That's not something that's just that happening, you know. But even though it happened then, when I grew up, the child was actually raised by the community. Everybody looked out for you. Today we only look out for our own children and some of us even neglect our own children. I went to a restaurant yesterday and the lady was selling food and I stopped by to talk with the lady. The girl came in to buy something from the lady and she said, no, that's your bus fare. I'm not selling you. So the child went out and gave another girl the money. The girl came in and said, I'd like to have whatever it was. They said, she sent you, no, I'm not selling you. So, you know, when I thought you're selling, you're doing a business. She would have been excited to get her things sold out. Then she said to me, this is a practice of this little girl. She spends all the money among gift to her and then she won't beg the media bus drivers for money to go home. And I said, this is a wonderful thing. You know, she was not just interested in selling the girl. She was also protecting the child from going and asking people. And I think we need to get more of that in our communities to help our young people. So I guess you're talking about the fact that, you know, we really used to live by the fact that it takes a village to raise a child. So are you suggesting, before I move on to another panelist, that cases of child sexual abuse were not as prevalent when people were more involved? Well, the thing is, we don't have the stats to say then it was 10 and now it's 110. But you find individuals who are more watchful for children. And I know lots of children got protected because they had adult people watching for them. And I think if we go back to that, I mean, we talked about educating communities and all of that. But being watchful for the child, I believe would go a long way. I will go to Diane right now to get your point of view on whether you think we have, based on what the pastor has said as well, whether you think we have failed in terms of our responsibility to the children of our society? I would say as we have failed. I would say that we as a family, we have failed. We have what the culture, the culture, we have the Wajima culture. We like to do Wajima. And it also goes back to what the pastor just said. We think of maybe if I send this man or this teacher or whoever it is to prison that I am not going to be able to get what I need. We have failed, I would like to stress on the family because I believe that the family is really the key to society. We have failed as a family because what we have, I know the pastor spoke about the family before. But the family before, they started the culture of keeping that situation a secret. What you have, you have the aunt would keep it a secret. The grandmother would keep it a secret. But we have a growing society now for persons who are willing to speak out. And we still have this little fraction in the family that like to keep everything a secret. So it really causes problems when other persons within the family want to speak out. I know of two cases where there is this 12-year-old who was molested and she actually got an STD. And her parent or her mom and her stepdad stood up. But they now are being taken to task by the family because of course of the wangema. It's like you shouldn't speak out, it should be kept behind. I know of another situation where there was this mother who stood up for her child and the family really is divided because that mother who was of course abused and affected by the whole secret notion of it felt that she had to stand up for her child. But the family felt that it was wrong and that it should be kept a secret. So with that I say that we have failed as a society, we have failed as a family in terms of refusing to speak out and to protect our children. What we don't realize is when we don't speak out, we affect our children, they grow up with that anger. And sometimes you go to the school and you would see these children getting on and then we would question what is wrong with that child. Yes, you need to question what is wrong with that child but you also need to question what is that child really going through. Even at the workplace you have these women, they come out and they have all of this attitude and they are so angry and what we want to do is send them home but do we really find out what is that woman going through. Sometimes that woman has to deal with that her child is being abused but she doesn't know how to deal with it. So I believe that we as a society we have failed in such a way. I mean I went through a report, I was reading a report here and it says that... Can you cite which report is that? It is from the... Sorry. It is an article from Belial Youth Slamis a 2016 extraction and it is saying that St. Lucia is one of many islands in the Caribbean that is facing a potential problem of child sexual abuse and epidemic. And of late we had that report where Denry was cited as one of the villages with the most abuse in the island. I'm hoping that Cameron Law can speak to some of that. And what it says again, it says that fear and limited trust in the legal structure both contribute to underreporting by victims and their families. Again, you know, and all of that was executed in the skit. We go there and not just that but we have frustration. You go to the courts and you go to courts for two years but you know and you have all of that happening so this is where I say that we are filled as a family, we are filled as society. Constable Law, society is obviously made up of not just the police however when it comes to those cases, similar times police definitely get blamed when cases don't go forward get blamed for even underreporting as to why people don't come to the police. Do you think that the police is fulfilling its role in the society in terms of sexual abuse cases? Okay, I would agree with everybody. And do you think we have failed? Yes, we have failed. And whilst the police over the years we have seen an increase in the number of reported cases we have made some strides in that we have a dedicated unit to investigate in those the crimes of children and vulnerable persons. We still as the police force because these crimes are not only reported to that dedicated unit and they are well trained but when you have other police officers who are not sufficiently trained to actually receive that report with a level of empathy and even sometimes professionalism it, you know, drives the victim away from continuing with the report. So yes, we have, we know and I will stress again on education in terms of the police, the society need to be educated. Another place that I would say that we have failed and it is one of the areas as you know she spoke Diane spoke a while ago in terms of Wajima is the judicial system. The length of time it takes for one case to go through the system it frustrates even the victim. Because sometimes you may get a child bringing up a case in primary school by the time the case comes there in secondary. So the parents and those responsible for that child see figures most times it's better to take a watch more on the outside already in need because you find those cases prevalent in the poorer communities. So I think yes, we have failed in that regard. Education I will go back on and we need to not only educate and call, you know, meetings we need to reach out to the communities go to the levels of the persons who are more vulnerable as opposed to calling, if you stay and you call you ask them, you invite people they would be reluctant to come in. But if you reach out to them and get to their level then it would be a lot easier I think in terms of educating those people. So we have failed in terms of educating our people we have failed where the police is concerned in terms of educating the entire police was in terms of how to deal with and receive those reports to be empathetic and professional and the judicial system in total has failed in terms of the number of how long it takes for one case to actually go through the court system and to get to a determination at the end of it. Sometimes we want to blame the parents and we want to blame the victims but we must understand how they feel having to walk up and down every week, every month, every year to rehash the circumstances of that case we need to understand that and how it affects them. So yes, we have failed and there is a lot of room for improvement. Before I switch to that question over to Miss Joseph I wanted to raise another issue with you because there's a psychological thing as well that happens to victims when they file these kinds of cases what are the police doing when someone has filed a case and they come back and they say they don't want to go forward with the case for whatever reason is there a point where there's some therapy or something that's given to them or do the police try to convince them to please go forward with the case? In every case of child sexual abuse there is the aspect of therapy that child must receive some sort of therapy so the police does not work alone the child and the family the police does not work alone in the cases the human services and other aspects or other agencies that work with the police when the parent decides most times it's the parent because the child would not be able to make that determination as to whether they move forward or not and a lot of the times it has to do with stigmatization at school protecting the family itself I am aware of cases or cases where I was actually called by an individual and told me that the daughter had been molested by a family member and I automatically my first thing was to report the matter to the police a few days later I went by and I did not hear anything and I asked what happened and I was told that we decided not to move forward with it the family has already divided so much and it would further divide the family and that was the extra I tried to convince but there's so much I can do so that is the situation that we face so counseling is always available and it's always provided and it's always advised we always advise the victim and the parents that they should get that sort of counseling to enable them to cope with the situation moving forward quite a lot for you to take in Miss Joseph but let me get your point of view on where you think we're at as a society in terms of our response to sexual abuse and have we failed our children I'm not going to blame society right now I think they've all covered the bit on society but I think a lot of the time as well we parents have to do a part and when you look at statistics in terms of the perpetrators of child sexual abuse they are the family, the parent and majority whether it's in Lucida Caribbean in the U.S. that's what the thesis says most of these children are actually being abused from the hands of their parents a family member, an uncle, a cousin that they trust so these are the same individuals that they trust also you have in terms of our homes broken homes a society, a culture where a lot of single parenting children are not being supervised they left a load to just do what they want also you have social media television children you have also as well we say children being sexual abuse we have children who initiate the encounter you have children who actually would request person to perform certain acts on them because of what they're seeing so for example I remember I had a case where a nine year old child requested an older boy to perform certain acts on her because she observed her mother doing it with a boyfriend so I think it's the sort as well where our children are very much exposed to a lot of those pornography inappropriate sexual behaviors from the home, from the parents these as well just as for example curiosity you know they will perform those things either with their little friends or the parents of others so that in itself when you look at whether society has failed I think we parents as well has failed as well because of those negligence in those areas also we have the cases of the incest that is quite rampant there's quite a lot of that on the island and then again this is from fathers and you know the children so it is something that I mean I think when we look at whether we fill a society I guess it comprises everybody also when you talk about education and counseling I think there's also a stigma he did say that a colleague said that they have the service I'm not sure if I'm going to support you here you probably afterwards you maybe have to give me a list of those services that's available because I know we lack that sort of psychological support a lot of the victims whether they went through the system the hospital the police most of them that's the end of it there is nothing further from that so again we as a society fail we as a government we fail to provide that necessary support system for them for the victim so I think that's my point okay thank you very much to our panel we'll take a break we'll be right back because there are some other issues I really want to go into like what specifically counts as child sexual abuse I've been doing a lot of reading and we've definitely seen that it's not just about the physical it can also be emotional it can also be verbal so I really want us to get into that how it starts and how it exacerbates so we will speak about that when we come back the problem starts with finding a suitable spot it extends to double parking offloading zones are ignored thus inconveniencing commercial activity handicapped spots are occupied by drivers who use the quick errand excuse and of course there's the constant fear of parking tickets in an effort to curb these and other parking related issues the castry city council will be implementing short term paid parking $3 an hour can save you $500 in parking tickets short term paid parking coming soon your old child she's driving me crazy I just don't know what to do all the child needs is some good legs to wake up Alice ignore the counseling pantheon government employees have free access to professional counseling services under the employee assistance program known as EAP EAP? EAP? what's that? not me that telling people my business listen to me Alice I was struggling with my child I made an appointment to see an EAP counselor and I was very satisfied with the service that I received and you know what up to a day like today my information remains confidential Cox how come nobody in the office knew anything about your counseling ah that's because EAP counselors they work on the strict clauses of confidentiality I know you know what confidential means EAP providing professional counseling services how much is it girl the counseling is free free for you free for your child and you know what your information remains confidential call the EAP unit at the ministry of the public service telephone number 468 2269 for more information EAP works let it work for you welcome back to our panel discussion we were having a very lively discussion in terms of how we feel about society's role and whether we have in fact filled our children one of the issues that I really want to get into and I hope Miss Joseph you can address this first what is child sexual abuse I was reading somewhat of a definition and it says that child sexual abuse is largely categorized by child rape which involves any forced violence manipulation coercion, physical penetration of the victim or a combination of the latter I was also reading another definition which also spoke to some of the issues you raised which is child pornography things that are shown to children you know the way a person speaks to a child I think that when we think of sexual abuse and reporting it we always think about the physical but what if someone shows your child something or records your child doing something that can also fall into that category can you speak to that for us a bit? usually you find there's two types where you have the contact we have the non-contact so the contact will be where you have whether in terms of the child is forced to perform sexual acts rape exploitation and stuff like that for example they would either have them perform sometimes it might not be there's no penetration so they also have that as well penetration sometimes you have the work case they just have the child perform sexual acts on them or on somebody else as well so that would be but also for the non-contact that child is exposed to sexual sorry to materials like pornography when I use earlier the example where the child sees sort of certain sexual behaviors at home inappropriate behaviors so for example a lot of times during the expose to seeing their parents engaging sexual activities that would be the non-contact and that is considered as sexual abuse as well also you have a case in terms of just before you go and that can sometimes happen accidentally right? it can and then it is up to the parent at the time when the child is exposed accidentally walking into the bedroom that they have a child with a child afterwards and expose and say ok well you have seen and it is just grown up stuff just talk to the child to explain what is that all about do we have a culture and maybe because the questions come as you speak do we have a culture in St. Lucia of having those types of conversations with our child is it just an occasion where you just hit the child what are you doing in here and you don't talk to the child after about what they have seen it is so for example something simple as masturbation it is a normal behavior when children growing up at a certain age they would exploit the body and they must be touched the private person and so forth and this is normal whereas sometimes you find a parent might probably walk in and I remember when I was in the UK I had a case like that she was 25 years at the time but it was an incident where in her early age she was 7 years she walked in and she was from an Asian culture where she was her cousin was touching her and it seemed like something that has been going on but because of the reaction of the father she took it on board as that was molestation that was raped whereas it was very much an innocent like maybe two children very much exploiting and maybe because of the feelings emotion comes along with that the sensation got engaged in that so depending on how the parents react and that was a reaction is very important to the situation that can actually determine how the child takes it on cases like that parents need and we have a culture where when it comes to sex sometimes it's very sacred it's a conversational parents don't feel comfortable to talk to their children about and it's what they see on media on television and curiosity they might be curious to explore and try so again that all those things would be like factors as well so how do we encourage our people in our society to recognize the different types of sexual abuse and what are the options that are available to them let me throw this to you Diane what do you think we need to do to recognize sexual abuse at all levels the emotional the pornography the actual physical what has been your experience first we need to look at the behaviors of the child I know most persons they would think that child abuse child abuse it's just like oh I didn't rape you or I didn't but it's it's how would I say it's it's just there there's so much you know some of them you use they use the children's mouth the children's they use objects they use all of that I would say that we need to and I would go back to Mr. Law's thing first we need to educate our parents we need to educate our parents as to the warning signs what do we look for we have some of these persons or these public persons I would say that they use certain things to take advantage of our children our children would we have the modern technology and everybody wants to be with the modern technology so they use these things we can't afford to buy our children S5 is it S5 but yet still we see our children come home with an S5 and we don't question them and these are some of the things that these people use to take advantage of our children they give them what we cannot give them as parents so these are the things that we need to look for we need to look for when they come home we have gotten so so how would I say it technology savvy that we sit down by each other and we have conversation via whatsapp and sometimes we see our children on the telephone maybe 24 hours they come home after school and they on that phone but we don't monitor the conversations that they have and these are some of the places that these people tap into and they target our children the other things that we look for the other warning signs that we look for we have become so selfish as a people that the children are hurting but all we could think about is I I would lose this I have worked so hard for this what do I do but we don't think about the children what do they go through I know of this case again that this child who went through this situation luckily she was strong that she went on and she did very well she is I think the sky is the limit for her so these are the things that we need to look for look for the things that we cannot afford it we need to go back to the old days I remember that I would come home with something and my grandmother would tell me and we refuse to do that we need to go back to the old days and sometimes what we say is that we are now in the future but a lot of the teachings that they gave us in the old days if we go back to it we would be able to see some of the challenges and how we deal with it even without going to the law because we would go back to the basics so these are the things that I would say that we need to look out for look for these warning signs because these are where they take advantage of our children I was reading some statistics in preparation for this and I wanted to read out one because it's an issue that has already come up it says it's from a UNICEF report on Saint Lucia perpetrators of child abuse it said of the 63 perpetrators identified in reported cases of sexual abuse in 2010 all were known to the victims I want to throw this one over to you Constable Law I mean so many times we have these people in families who the victims know very closely can you give us your perception your experience in that as I said before most of the cases stem from the family or somebody who is very close to the family because of that you know you would hate as a police officer police in our districts you would hate or somebody would report it to you that this is taking place in this family's house but you do not get a report from the parent because they will try to protect the family you try to protect a lot of times the image of the family so that is one of the most difficult aspects of child sexual abuse or child abuse in general where the family tries the best to protect the family not the child but the family so they just don't report it they try the best to probably keep the child away from the perpetrator as much as possible how long can you do that and that is from a policing standpoint that is one of the things and not just a policing standpoint but a community a society standpoint that is the most difficult aspect of it all when if you know it's happening the community knows that it's happening but the family refuses to report it that is the most difficult thing how do you deal with it unless it is a case where it is so severe that the evidence is glaring and you could contact the human services or some other agency to actually go in and try to get the child out our hands are tied but I don't even just think it's the family sometimes I know of a case when it comes to the education system where a parent was simply told that this child will no longer sit in the class where he was abused but the teacher is still in that class working with other students so there are new victims even though you keep that child away from the teacher other victims that could come up as well I want to throw this to you pastor because I'm sure you deal with it as well people who come to you from families where there has been sexual abuse where the person is in the family unit or very close to the family what do you do in that situation if somebody comes to me and like says my uncle my cousin interviewed me that's what you're asking one of the things I think recently we were told if a child reported such a case contact the police right away because I've seen children suffer because you get a parent together settle the case emotionally and it's difficult to move on in life because of what happened and I personally believe if a person does such a thing the person should be guilty the law should take its course because I really can have the individual but I would imagine they would come to you and say maybe counseling might help this person or prayer but you see counseling and prayer is important children may need to go through some kind of deliverance because the child is emotionally hurt but then what do you do when the person commits the crime you have to deal with that part first and then when that is dealt with then we decide as to how best we help the child pray for the child my wife is a social worker so cases like that you take the child to her and she deal with the child I want to go back to the skit we saw earlier one of the issues that came up her mother was telling her that she has the devil inside her that she somehow seduced the father in some way from a religious perspective because we are in a society where a lot of that thinking still goes on what do you do in that regard well number one we need to keep in mind that doesn't matter the age of a child and I heard somebody made mention of the child going forward to individuals and so forth the child is not to be blamed parent is to be blamed Bible says I talk Bible here train of the child in the way of the Lord that when he grows he will not depart from that training so a parent spend time training the children I am not talking as a man who was I have five children three girls and two boys and you talk to them now we discuss everything I taught my children from each five mother came to the book and she said that is too small I said no they need to know and we talk everything because I believe like I said earlier children belong to the Lord my responsibility is to raise them for him that when he is ready they would be ready to work with him so I don't train them for me for my home I train them for the Lord and I believe that we talk a lot about education churches, schools families have to sit with children and discuss these issues with them and if anyone is found guilty of hurting a child the person should be jailed Miss Joseph I saw you writing I am definitely interested in finding out your take on the situation one of the first issues I raised that a lot of these people are known individuals in the home what do you think parents should do in those situations I think they have spoken a lot about the different sort of issues in terms of what's going on I think we can like different perspective a lot of those individuals themselves as I said could be a case that a child has been abused now remember it's not only a father there are mothers you have mothers and daughters which is rare to think that you barely hear about it but sometimes they themselves as a child has been and it becomes like a way of being that's what they know as well you have things in terms of substance abuse a lot of those person sometimes they abuse substance whether they are alcoholics drug street drugs these are factors that contribute to that as well you look from broken homes raised from broken homes as well as very young parenting as well sometimes parents who probably have children at a very young age lack of knowledge, lack of education all these things could be but that's something we don't really discuss as a society what has happened to the perpetrators we kind of adopt a lock them up approach as to what actually happened to this person to cause them to react that way or to put somebody else through that what have you noticed in speaking to persons like that I mean notice in terms of what caused these behaviors what basically I'm asking is it somebody who has been abused that would abuse others a lot of cases you have that whether they themselves identify with the abuses for example maybe if the father or from a home where they themselves have been abused sometimes they tend to display certain behaviors so you do have that as well but also we have individuals actually through the mental disorders mental health issues they would probably display such behaviors but I wouldn't say that majority of those persons maybe are abusers themselves have been abused themselves big victims I wouldn't say that but a lot of them can be possibility have been through those similar experiences as well even when you look at moving that from domestic abuse as well a lot of persons you find in domestic relationship maybe they are coming from a home with similar sort of structure as well so that tend to be cases as well Since we are on the subject of perpetrators it's an opportunity for me to bring up the subject of the sex registry which has been talked about over the last several years in San Lucia I want to start with you of course law enforcement that a sex registry would work in San Lucia do you think it's a good direction to go? Would it work in San Lucia? I honestly think it's a good direction to go San Lucia is pretty small and everybody knows everybody so to speak Some might say that's the problem Well while not many people know the activities of others Everybody may know everybody but your activity is not many people know that there's a saying that everybody has a vice and so a sex registry if it's brought in properly I think it would work it would work very well it would cause most of these people because a lot of these situations in terms of child sexual abuse whilst you have the ordinary man committing those crimes you have these people who are very respectable people who are upstanding citizens who actually commit those crimes also and that is where a lot of the wange minds come in but the sex registry would probably only account for those who have been convicted but the fear of being found out and put on the registry that would deter some people in terms of the activity so I think it's a good idea Diane? I think it would be a very good idea with the correct structure and mechanisms in place it would be very good I know we have something we have a lot of persons what we call deportees coming from the US coming from Canada and the UK when they come back do we know what they bring it back to us in our little island of St. Lucia I'm not saying that they are not St. Lucia's but do we know their history do we know what they have done so I believe if we have that in place of course our police officer who I believe had this information that we would be better ready to deal with these persons when they come in we would be able to monitor them and see what is happening so I believe if we have the structure and everything in place it would be a great idea so do you think sex registry should be something that should be accessible to the regular normal public or should it just be something that law enforcement or persons trying to do due diligence on someone would be able to find out I think it should be with just the law enforcement I don't think it would have the effect that you would want it to have I think it should be out there with the information should be out there with the public I don't think it should be just the law enforcement okay pastor what is your take on the registry I support that 100% and like my sister rightly said is something that should be exposed to the public I believe it would form as a good deterrent to prevent people from doing that I'm not saying it would stop them but I think it's a good direction to go Miss Joseph okay I agree to some extent this is going to be useful but for just a bit I'm going to go back on the perpetrator bit we know in our society not all actually accusation are true and then we'll have the cases where for example a young child whose sex was involved with another older person and you know the fact that once you're 16 and then there's sexual relation that's supposed to be considered as rape we have very young teenagers who get into our system into the hospital and so forth with pregnancy and childbirth and you wonder how they get to that extent you know to reach so far well importantly for example in this case there was a relationship between the minor with the adult with disability no better or if somebody has been wrongly accused and they would be convicted we look at how society treat that person and they're going to be stigmatized would that person ever be able to so rehabilitate back into society how do we look at that person it's the case that you walk around with that label you know and to some extent that would have a psychological or effect on that individual so it has to benefit at the same time it does have those disadvantages to doing something like that. The other question the type of society that we have do we even believe as a society that perpetrators of sexual abuse can be rehabilitated in some way some people feel like when you commit a crime you will keep committing that crime you want it to come in or not I'm just saying I don't believe that it is impossible to rehabilitate persons who have committed crimes of that nature like she said there are some persons who actually have a relationship with somebody and of course they should know better that this person is a child but then there's a relationship there's some teenagers who actually bring themselves on to individuals and they actually look more mature than you know they have with child and it might very well be a genuine mistake by this person to have taken this person to be older than they are so you have these situations and of course you have those that it's just who the person is and who would continue doing it but I think there are instances where persons can be rehabilitated and it might not necessarily even be in the nature of that person to actually go about preying on you know younger people so yeah, persons can be rehabilitated Diane do you believe perpetrators with sexual abuse can be rehabilitated I believe so it will be a lot of working progress but I believe that it can happen but are we part of a society that encourages that I mean we will in a little bit of a dispute earlier regarding whether therapy actually goes to victims of sexual abuse so if we can't even put things in place properly as a society to make sure our victims are protected how do we monitor perpetrators and make sure they are on the path to rehabilitation Miss Joseph well I know that it's one of the areas that we really lack in and one of the things I would say I think one of the ways we look at our topic how society can help and I think that can be one of the big things that we do for example the early interventions when the person come in at the hospital or at the police station and make a report what they do with the victim after and I mean you mentioned that we deal with the crime you know and then after that we provide but I somehow didn't agree with this because I think a lot of the times we fail to realize that for most of those person yes the experience was traumatizing but the traumatizing of the whole re-experiencing that starts just from there the moment they start reliving or talking about that experience again they've been re-traumatic and every single day that individual has to live with that experience and most of the time if they don't get early treatments for psychological support it leads to so many psychological emotional trauma so for example mental PDSD, mental disorders, depression some of them are very suicidal self-harm and you know certain sort of behaviors and that goes into adulthood so you're looking at from just this little experience whether they actually convict the perpetrator or not it doesn't really make a change for that victim what makes a change is the support they receive at that time and for further on in terms of re-habitation and so on support and so dealing with that trauma or that experience that they have Before we go to a break I want to get the past point of view I mean you would probably have persons who have been convicted or perpetrators who would come to the church seeking some kind of rehabilitation or counseling or being saved in some way or reborn if I could say what do you do in those types of situations and do you believe in fact that perpetrators of sexual abuse can be reborn so to speak I personally believe that anyone can change that you said reborn reborn again but then I know of a situation where an individual that did that to two of his daughters and he came seeking help we talk him wife got a child involved but that individual came to shelter under the umbrella of the church now when someone is reborn there are certain things you see in the person's life that tells you change has taken place in the person's life we also need to understand here this is it's heavily demonic I know my sisters and them deal with it from a different standpoint but what will cause a man to look at his own daughter and rape them number times that's the evolution may that person needs deliverance if the person goes through deliverance you will know it you will see it there are certain things that Bible tells us that you know a fruit a tree by the fruit it bears and so as a person trust God believe the God my person won't just come and say from that I did all the leaders of the church and I said let me explain something to you guys this guy has a problem and I did that in order for them to watch out for the younger girls in the church that's my rule after a while we didn't see many more so I don't know where he is now so definitely getting into the discussion right now we'll take a short break because we really want to get into what are some of the solutions what are some of the things that from our different aspects of society what are some of the things we can do to change the current situation that we find ourselves we'll be right back I noticed that you built your retaining wall on my property you will have to give me my land back or compensate me for that I trust that it will not build anything on your property where is your proof? let's go to court this situation does not require you to go to court looks like we have to go through mediation here mediation is a way people resolve conflicts like this someone a third party comes to speak to both parties this person is called the mediator the mediator is impartial he or she makes sure that communication between both parties is active and efficient so the mediator is a judge? no the mediator is not a judge mediators unlike judges do not decide cases or impose settlements let me get a mediator to handle this retaining wall and that kitchen kitchen? yes your kitchen also falls on my land let me call the mediator welcome back to our panel discussion on society's role in protecting our children from child abuse in light of women's day being celebrated on March 8 I would now like to go back to our panel we were having a very good discussion but I want to switch a little bit to what are some of the solutions what we already know what some of the issues are we already know that a lot of the times we have failed our children at various levels of society what are some of the things we can do as individual as community as leaders to alleviate and to cause our society to be more reactive to child sexual abuse I would like to first start with constable law on that issue okay the police is the last is the end result after it has happened then the police gets involved but to prevent it from happening education is from and more so educating our men it is more prevalent with men educating our men reaching down to meeting the men wherever they are speaking to them about child sex abuse I think that is where we should start a lot of our parents very young parents most of our parents they go out to the parties get involved in drugs alcohol and everything else and I think that is where we should start as a society educating our men primarily including the women and the children to understand what it is whether it is your parents or anybody else to understand the signs to understand what is right and what is wrong with parents and other family members or anybody else making these kinds of advances to you as a child and I am not sure that five years is old enough but we have to start at an age where the children can understand getting the children speaking to the kids so that they would be brave enough and that is one of the issues with kids they are not brave enough speaking to even their parents at school the stigmatization cobing the stigmatization that when this happens you have to empathize when you as a friend realizes it has happened it is happening to encourage your friend to speak out to speak to her parents speak to the teacher so with everything that is said I think the key to it wouldn't end it but it would curb it on a very, very, very serious level is education as I said the police is the last straw so before it gets to the police we need to ensure that it does not happen and the police is involved is the way to go I would also add that I do think the police need to be part of the education process I know that the police do have community outreach and those kinds of things so I do think the owners too is on the police not just to be the last straw but to also be part the police I could tell you I worked with the community relations department a few years ago and the police is doing a tremendous job in various schools we actually go out to almost every school when I worked in the department in the north from grocery all the way to Denby with this level of education so yes if you educate the police properly the police will be able to impart that knowledge on the students and the schools and the community that we go out to speak to when we do so yes you are correct I would now like to go to Diane to the problem that we now face that society can put in place I would say that we need to support the government the various organizations in the implementation of various projects we also need to look at taking away the children from the situations where they are mistreated we can also look at offering children shelter and provide medical and psychosocial care look at supporting the victims with legal help and train officers how to deal with victims of sexual abuse we can look at encouraging our girls and our boys to continue their education seek to empower them in girls clubs boys clubs and offer them skills training we can also look at supporting families of abused children in increasing their income because poverty remains one of the biggest causes of child abuse so these are some of the things that we could look at I also want to go back to what officer law said we need to look at what we call community policing if we have that in various communities we could be each other's keeper and I believe that's one of the biggest things we could do is to be each other's keeper and look out for each other because we tend to keep everything a secret but these things we don't speak out against it and I believe that's one of the things that will help society I'm glad you brought up the broader issue of poverty and that's one of the issues we wanted to speak about poverty and households housing I'm sure officer law a lot of times when it comes to those cases when you visit the actual household you see how some persons are living and you can see how that situation can develop to where even in the skit we saw earlier where the mother is dependent on the individual for financial help so these are some of the things that we can do to help alleviate that problem I would now like to go to Pastor Marcius what do you think we can do to alleviate child sexual abuse well I want to support what the officer said and I think we've said that a number of times in the previous discussions that we have, education my recommendation would be that like what we're doing here we should move to communities have panels invite the neighborhood to discuss these issues and hope it brings some kind of change education is key towards bringing change to a situation like that Miss Joseph? I think importantly education as the other colleague said but no education in terms of how parents should react because we saw that in the skit that was one of the issues being aware, educating about the science that they need to look for and that's really important as well I think as a society and government providing that sort of support after so for example having at least councillors in the police station responsible for that point of entry or intervention in the hospital so as soon as they come in there is that support system not only remember not for the victim but the family because a lot of the time you find that it really does a lot of damage to the family as well and then you continue the common cycle where you know then is more a breakdown in terms of family structure so I believe that once we can probably provide those services is that probably in a way will sort of curb or reduce those sort of concerns? How do we address the specific problem that came up in our discussion of the Wajima how do we stop that kind of situation that keeps happening? I would say that our government we should try to make it law that whenever an issue whenever we get that case it automatically becomes a state case and not a case of you against me but it's actually the state against whoever it was reported and so then that gives it's almost like you can't withdraw it you can't if it's a state case so I would recommend that that we look at making these cases state case where the state is the one dealing with it and not you Constable Long? I think it is actually that it does it's the onus is not just on the parent to come to court and say I withdraw if the judgment does not feel it should be withdrawn I think they have the authority to continue with the case so why then are we still at the end of the day if I don't want to come forward to give the evidence then there's no case but isn't there an aspect where you can have someone be a hostile witness where you force them to testify as and you have their witness statement as well well that would be with the lawyers and the whole legal fraternity but I'm brilliant truly if there's no evidence to put forward there really is no case and that is the problem that we face with this thing Pastor I saw you wanted to come I was wondering with what my sister said a while ago even if the government make it law then there must be some penalty because if there's no penalty to me coming to testify I'm not just coming but if there's a penalty then I'm here reconsidering I think a lot of times as well we say the good man and not wanting to go has too lot to do with sometimes the age of the child a lot of time parents look at protecting the child in terms of not wanting the child to be re-exposed or be re-chomatized with that also you have a lot of issue of pride and shame that comes along with that that's a big culture and an issue as well so it's quite popular in terms of reason factors that contribute to why most parents will not want or take the child after the whole process sometimes which is so long and dragging and quite traumatizing I really wanted to give our panel the opportunity to have a final word however time flies and we are out of time so I do want to story to you Miss Joseph to just end just to give us an idea of how you think we can heal the society in terms of this sexual abuse issue and what would you say to parents teachers people who are listening right now it has become an increasing issue I mean in our society but I think a lot of times we have a society who is quite stigmatized by our perspective in terms of therapy counseling seeking help we like to keep things secret we do not want the neighbor or the friends to know what's going on so there is a culture of silence and they don't realize how damaging it is to the child so teachers friends, colleagues if a child comes to you I think it's on us to take that step and move forward and John says not my child, it's not my business I'm not getting involved because at the end of the day you don't even have a family you're helping that individual because if we do not assist that child can probably be quite scarred in terms of long-term effect psychological emotional effect on the child so coming together as one as a society where government teachers, police social workers I think we all need parents we all need to do a part of the work and I think if we all do that maybe we can actually fight this crisis the situation thank you very much to my panel this evening I think it's been a very good discussion I think we definitely need to plan a part 2 of this discussion and hopefully not next year when it's Women's Day again I think we need to do it before that and really thrash out some of the issues associated with child sexual abuse thank you very much to the panel thank you to Senlutions watching us live on NTN and obviously on the social media channels I do want to say that we all have a collective responsibility to protect our children from sexual abuse and we all need to own that and do what we need to do in order to remove this scourge from our society thank you very much have a good evening