 delivering value in blockchain networks today and let me grab, give me one second. Okay, and Jim, you're live streaming as well. Okay, great, thanks. So Alex is going to talk about distributed ledger and how it can create business value, which is really what we're trying to get to. It's not about the technology, but the value we can deliver. And he's going to talk about strategies for comprehensive digital transformation. And certainly DLT is one of those important building blocks in creating ecosystems and so on and delivering value. So with that said, I will say that Alex's background is deep in this space. He's been working on digital transformation for a long time and has spent a lot of the time in the government sector. And all his background includes an MBA from MIT and he currently works with publicists sapient on a variety of different projects. And so he brings a lot to the table and looking forward to the presentation. Before we get started, I do want to talk about, let's see if I can get to the break. First of all, we're hosted by the Linux Foundation. And Linux Foundation has an antitrust policy that's available on the website at linuxfoundation.org. And the antitrust policy basically says that Linux Foundation meetings involve participation by industry competitors. And it's the intention of the Linux Foundation to conduct all of its activities in accordance with applicable antitrust and competition laws. So please do not participate in any activities that are prohibited under applicable U.S. state, federal or foreign antitrust and competition laws. Secondly, Hyperledger project does have a code of conduct that we all abide by. And the code of conduct is available on the Hyperledger wiki. And that hyperledger code conduct says, we are committed to creating a safe and welcoming community for all. We treat each other with respect, professionalism, fairness and sensitivity for many differences and strengths at all times. So again, that's that policy is available on the code of conduct. And with that, I want to turn this over to Alex and let him get started. Thank you, Jim. And good morning, everyone. It's always a great thing to start with good conversation Friday morning. With the pandemic, Friday is the same like Mondays and Tuesdays, a little bit distorted, but at least give me a sense of these in a good Friday, we have time to kind of think more broader about what's going on. So I will let me also share my screen. So I'll go through a little bit of presentation, but it's going to be a dialogue like you basically heard and like you're aware, you know, the blockchain is superbly interesting tool. But being interesting tool is not enough, right? So basically, being interesting tool is interesting for somebody to read a nice article. As a matter of fact, there's a lot to be said about blockchain technology and a lot interesting things on interoperability and interesting layers you can put. And I myself worked on implementing hyperledger pretty much for all the blockchain solutions I worked on. So there's a lot to be said about that. But today I want to really talk about something that I've seen being very problematic in our marketplace and also in public sector in particular, but also I'm bringing both experiences from public sector as well as commercial sector sort of all as a practitioner and as a pioneer of this. So probably I was one of the very first pioneers to launch blockchain within the government and work with agencies on that. So I'm going to show you some of my perspectives on what we're back and today. And so hopefully it's going to give us some more some better insights. So I am I am in sort of all of this tied to strategy and consulting. I'm a big technologist too. But you know, we always start with what's what's really out there. And what's really out there is a digital transformation. DLT is one of those tools. And at heart, my company is basically doing digital transformation. That's kind of what we have focused, not installing blockchains or installing AI or so on whatever really making companies to be what we're called digitally native. So how do you sort of be that digitally native? Just a quick story, I think probably most of you have heard of publicist sapien. So we are essentially, you know, the strong the leader in digital transformation space, as well as in all the user experience space and technology space. So that kind of gives an interesting edge or interesting way of how we go about a lot of work we do. And we do work a lot across the globe, both across the many industries, including the public sector and that by the government. So we take the stuff we learn from public sector, bring the commercial and analyze versus. So and you know, probably you who read the forest or wave or garden or boards, you'd see that we on those sort of leading corners when it comes to digital business transformation, particularly some of the accelerators. There's a really interesting topic, like as some of the digital transformation you know, expert who is in this arena has been doing this a lot and even back from my MIT days. You know, it's always good to see technology, but recently what I found is a blockchain paradox. And I'm starting to scratch my head. So I talked to a lot of folks, I talked to everybody from students to CIOs of major corporations to govern CIOs. And typically, and as some of my presentation, I asked people, what is your knowledge of blockchain? And this is the answer I got from students. Okay, so and that's okay. You know, I can say I students have this kind of understanding some maybe basic concept, you know, some minimal understanding. But then I go to CIOs good to all others, the answers are not much different. So it's interesting. So we've been talking about blockchain for a while, people have don't understand it. So, so why is that? And I was, I was particularly, you know, intrigued because I think a blockchain is a true digital transformation tool. And you know, if you think about what, what essentially Vitalik has a long time about blockchain, right? It's not really, as you said that at that time, it was really not putting the taxi driver out of the job to use the Uber analogy, but really it's putting Uber out of job, right? Because Uber provides that in a way that's trust and that safety and that sort of all the verification so that you as a customer of Uber don't have to worry about it as a driver where all the blockchain could certainly do that. And it is in technology with enormous, enormous potential. So I was just wondering why this paradox is coming from. And it's not just students, it's CIOs, it's government employees, it's commercial, it's everywhere, right? Obviously, I don't count unicorns as a blockchain. I mean, but we don't all live up from unicorns. Like we live from, from what's really going in a mainstream marketplace. And I was just scratching my head. And this, and this, and I always said that's a paradox of transformation really comes a lot with the issue of understanding innovation, understanding the exponential power. Okay, we, we as humans, even mathematicians, whatever you want to call it, we just not good with exponential. And, and it is, it is, it is, it is very problematic. So we typically think things are gonna not gonna happen now, it's too slow, it's gonna be this way, it's gonna be that way. Or even if things pick up, we just say, ah, that's not that still, that dominant. But I just want to leave, start when talking to the digital, I want to start with this effect, the exponential effect. And a very simple exercise, right? So, you know, you look at the, if you look at the, you know, stadium and American football, they look at the soccer stadium is much more closer to my heart. But I look at what the, you know, the stadium and if you were to put in the middle of this stadium, if you to put the, what I would call the exponential tap, basically the tap, they will just drop of water drops one by one, but in the exponential fashion, right? So meaning like in, you know, if in the first second, you got one, right? Then you get two, then you got four, then you got eight drops and on and on, right? So you get the logic, right? So if you put exponential tap, not regular water tap, exponential tap, that drops, you know, a little drop by little drop, but exponentially, right? So just a question to this audience, what do you think, how long will it take to fill at the top of this stadium? Any volunteers who like to tap the top of the stadium? It's okay. You don't have to say. I'll throw one out. 45 minutes. About 45 minutes? Okay. Any other volunteers? All right. You don't have to, I mean, it's also legitimate that lots of folks say this will take a year. I mean, if you think about it, it's just a drop by drop. I mean, exponential is fine, but it's drop by drop. But if you think about it, take a look and do the math through this. You know, it's a total area. This is high. That's the stadium capacity. This is how it drops like going on. But as you love the math, you can do that yourself. And as, as James has said, it's actually 40, it was very close, it was 49th minute. So maybe that's not surprising to some, actually surprising to a lot of folks, but to some, maybe not surprising. You expect the 49th minute will hit there, right? But what is more surprising is where is the water 10 minutes before this? So what, where is the water in 39th minute or 40th minute? Any volunteers? Where do you think the water is? At 39 minutes? Roughly. I'll say 10% full. I mean, I mean, and so it is like 10 foot. Is it like, you know, you know, 100 inches? I'll say 40 feet. 40 feet. That's fair. Any other takes? Well, be interesting. I would, you know, you know, I'm pretty proud of my mathematician. I would just like, you know, eyeball it's something I knew like Jim. But to surprise, it's only mere six inches. So folks, we're having a six inches deep water in the stadium and we're in 39th minute. And then 49th minute, it's going to be overflowing the stadium. So really what's, what's going on here, right? So, you know, you're sitting there for 39 minutes in the stadium expecting this exponential tap to overflow hang, you know, for overflowing anyway. As a matter of fact, it's a six inches. So you sit in there and you say, that's not that thing's going to happen. Come on. This is nothing. It's just been dripping forever. Sure. It's little inconvenient, six inch water, big deal, right? I got my boots, right? I've seen this before, right? So basically what's happening is this whole notion of linear versus exponential. So over time, exponential looks like linear. It's actually roughly the same, but it's not because at some point there's disruption happens. And when disruption happens, it really turns into what we call the real exponential, right? And if you think about it, that's what's happening today with technology. And people just don't see it. They cannot comprehend it, right? So like to many times people say, blockchain was such a good technology. Why we didn't have 20 years ago. What was so bad about it? We had it. What could we did? There were, there were, there were nice pieces of work around blockchain that long time ago. But yes, we didn't have technology. I mean, who could have distributed databases wet on one megabyte hard drive or what? 64 kilobyte machines wouldn't even have internet, right? So, so when you take into that enormous exponential growth, think about the cloud computing, high power computing network, you name it anything, the chips, the screens, anything, right? So it is adding on top of each other, right? So it's even surprising as professionals. I know I sat down some months a year or two ago, sit down to do this great page for a quick question. And we're going to do it in AWS. We're going to use great, great stuff from Python libraries. And it took about two, three weeks to do it. But it's 95% precise. It was, it was phenomenal. So, so cool about it. Then, yeah, just a week after, you know, here's, here's the whole service available in AWS. You just click the button that's there, right? And it's, it's actually better than not than 95%. And I thought three weeks was pretty fast. But this is a few clicks now. In AWS. So it's an example. It's, it's, it's going enormously and it's affecting each other by having all these little things available to each other, one by an accelerators. We're at this point today where AI is not going to require a deep experts. It's just going to be people clicking at things and getting to getting it done, right? So I said this many times, we're going to, when they have an RPA robot, that's going to be putting AI out there, right? So, and then like, but that's all great and fine. But why these things are not working, right? And you soon realize it's not the technology. It's not this, it's not, it's not the speed. It's none of these things. It is really, it is, how do you use this? Like, how do you use blockchain? How, where do you start with, right? We're not installing, right? So that's really the, the heart of it. One of the, I've seen is that when it comes to digital transformation, blockchain is a tool to remove business friction, right? And it's well known business friction. That business friction is obviously comes from business process. And I can tell you that is a, that is a great user blockchain, wherever you can smell that, that's where it is. And obviously that smells like lots of like production of costs. That smells like, like making things faster, right? And sure enough, if you do some of the, some of the data set from 67 by 67 live enterprise blockchain networks, not talking here about millions of other experiments, enterprise level blockchains, but 67 of them, many of them at a high for ledger, if not all, is the 72% of cost reduction. So again, removing that business friction, new efficiencies. So it is a little bit of incremental revenue generation. That's all fair and good. But the first and foremost is about that friction. So I'm kind of looking, looking at that friction. So basically, what basically how that sort of works for removal of that friction is really, is really because blockchain enables this network value chain, right? So it's not a linear chain anymore. If you think about it, you know, Tom has to do something with Steven and Steven has to do with Mary and Mary has to do with whoever and so really great and well, well, it's not like that anymore, right? So we have now actors, we have bots that can be on their chain and operate and close transaction, we have many, many, many people. So you have smart self self executing contracts, whatnot. So it is a different dynamic dynamic that just destroys the business process as is. So the one of the things to think about blockchain, if you implement a blockchain to do the same thing, it's not going to work. You have to think how to change business process. It's just like Uber app, right? Do you, do you know that taxis have actually very decent apps? Super good apps. If you ever use red top caps, super nice app. It just doesn't work the same way as Uber is not efficient. I can never rely on it. I mean, and Uber app works not because it is a, you know, special to them, but it is, it is, it is because it's against the solving of that business process problem and the way how these things are scheduled and done, right? It's not, it's not the same. That means being a digital at heart. So when you look at the implement blockchain, look at more digital at heart, right? Don't look at just a little bandaid here and there. And here's, here's the things we've seen from public sector and elsewhere in commercial. When we do it, yes, adoption and interest is growing. I wholeheartedly agree. And I can tell you a lot of people want to take a look at a lot of government agencies, a lot of folks, a lot of CIOs, right? In many conversations I'm hearing, oh, just the database, let's, you know, and I'll just install it and it'll be okay. It'll replace even our Oracle databases. And so that's just kind of the wrong way to look at it. And it's not technology solution, honestly. It is a really modernization framework. And I'll share with you my idea as how it all works in the ecosystem. And it is by really leveraging other technologies and other ideas to lean on top of each other to get the effect you, you look in. But if you do not start from the very first is from the user and from the business value, that's going to get a final lot. You're going to find yourself in a lot of troubles. And that's hence the roadblocks we've seen. I mean, every single agency, everything I'm going to talk about is there's no business case. Where's business case? I'm calling from Actioc for the public sector. They actually have designed a very good book. Casey probably is familiar with it. You can go and download, which is signed points to the business case. It's super interesting. World Bank user, just many others have used it. I use it myself. But it is a very good starting point. I have seen that in particularly government sector, that starts to be slippery. And there's no, there's no regard for users here. Many times I've been in a long-term conversation, she just talks about backend systems. I don't know contrary, what the users went to see. And so users have limited buy-in. And typically, users get tortured with the blockchain. I don't think users care about blockchain. Users care about their business problem. There's a lot of lack of agility that I've seen in product engineering. People do blockchain project. That such thing doesn't exist. The only thing that exists is your product that you're building. What are you doing? You're building a new contracting system with blockchain? Great. That's your product. Make it very agile. You don't need to do million tons of analysis. On the contrary, analysis is pretty straightforward if you thought on what it is. And that's to get to the really focused on a business and not constant firefighting. So it's a really interesting thing we've seen around there. So out of this, three big things. How to put the blockchain in the center of transfer major, that I've seen working across the industry, including public sector, is really make it a part of a foundational area to enable transformation. Not the only tool. So if your project is called blockchain or DLT, your project is doomed to fail. I don't know any project that's just named like that. It has to solve some certain problem. What I noticed working really well with the blockchain and we're doing lots of accelerators of different kind, is really start that out of heart. If you really start that out there with the user experience, what is that? What are you building? What people will be perceiving, right? And then you start to layer, okay, what's kind of data is going to be organized like that? You get that blockchain as your distributed ledger. You have it there. Even today, we're seeing some increased speeds where we can use blockchain and applications. We couldn't think of it yesterday like digital marketing. When transactions move a million times a day, I use a lot of blockchain in a federal contract and obviously you don't have a million transactions per second. It's kind of slow, quote to quote. So you have a lot of slack. But even in a fast-moving applications, it can work. So you have that as a ledger and then layering on top of its smart contracts and AI. Because you build the blockchain, you're going to get better captured data. When you get better captured data, you can build all those services on top of it to really understand and get inside of that data, right? So thinking about that, that's going to get there. Just putting a layer of blockchain, so what? It's not exciting. I haven't put it in Excel. But the way you go about it doing it is important. You cannot today, you cannot go on this until you microservice the environment, until you do testing automation, until you do DevOps. Until you can turn a dime to deploy something, see, touch, move on. That's what will bring the IT modernization. Without that engineering maturity, there is no blockchain implementation. It doesn't work in the Garage 3 guys doing it, never done QA on it, don't know what automation is. Oh, and we'll deploy it once in three months. Well, it doesn't work. Your idea is great. But you need that engineering muscle to get to that. That's not easy. I've seen many large companies struggling with it. It's easier said than done. Oh, just, you know, daily deploy. Well, easier said than done. Well, daily deploy the blockchain solution and make sure that database is an integrity and all of that. There's a lot of things around that. But if you think about that as a sort of ecosystem, then it's going to start to make a lot more sense to all of you. And as I said, without this, with a really strong user experience, it's just no technology success. It's just not going to get there. It is a typically blockchain now visible for people. Yeah, I have to yet to show me any user to understand it, and you have to yet to show me anybody really who cares about it on a front end, meaning those people who are really going to be doing the apps. There's a Uber user care about, you know, their great mobile, whatever user, Uber is doing. I don't think so. So from that perspective, this really started with the human centered design and discovering the problem back in track, failing the use case and going through it is something that he's going to get, get somewhere. And some government agencies are better than that. Some are not. So it is something that we as a practitioner need to bring down down there. And, and with that, you know, blockchain only works if people adopt it. You just build it and hope people going to use it, even if it's the greatest ROI could take away and I'm going to work. What basically is what's really working here is that, you know, that's this, this has to deliver value for users and user, right? Yes, also business value for corporation or government agents, but also today and user. So it's a combination of it. So, so efficiencies, they are in obsolete data, but there's a lot of other ones that are there. And, and that, that needs really to be shown and demonstrated. Those people need to be brought to the process to try it out to view it. It cannot be a corporate installation of this. Probably not going to work. And, and thinking about this, right, that's like this little simple framework. If you look at the ROI and user pain point, right? So that's simple framework that you can do how to kind of mix that because sometimes ROI does not align with user pain points. So I mean, if it's a line, right, and it's a star up there in top corner, it's great. That's awesome. But good luck with that. That doesn't allow all the time, right? Also, the sort of the weird idea that's an X corner, which I know user pain points and ROI, that typically people go fast through it. The much interesting is that box over there, where you have a lower user pain point, but enormous ROI. So think about it. So, so the government agency could have had enormous cost savings, but really it's not solving user problems. Yeah, it's a great idea. It's super good. Management is buying, but you go to users, they're like, sure, it's not making my life any easier. It actually doesn't make any sense. Yeah, helps the organization, but not me. That requires serious change management and requires actually looking at what really lever there is for the user and how do you do it? And you got to do that constantly. Right? So it's not a noxious. I think it's necessity of how you think about these digital transformations, particularly moment blockchain, which is sort of still today mysterious invisible tool. I know we all go deep into this. We've seen these things. I talked to a number of CIA was in a large enterprises, even high tech enterprises, and I didn't tell you it's not day to day to them. They are still very careful about it. So the more we can focus on things like that, I'm successful. We'll be rolling out the technology. So I don't want to sound like I'm putting the party down. So being is a big blockchain pioneer in public sector and being also a, what I will call it, really excited with digital transformation. I want to leave the impression that I see the doom not at all. I just see these issues that I didn't bear to my heart and I've seen them going on around there. But there's a lot of sign of hope. And I find it in data. You see a lot of data. So when I ran with the number of adults, so as a simple, simple analysis of what a blockchain solution, I got to offer them how they should be implemented, right? I think it's really good among a lot of these folks, particularly public sector agencies, they're looking there to start small looking to start a group of concept. They're looking to do that. There's no big banks. And my hire immediately goes, you know, oh, that's kind of cool, right? It's a responsible way to roll out, a responsible way to make this happen, a responsible way to grow. So that's a big sign of hope. Also, when you ask what's most critical in adoption to make this work, everybody get is a human centered design. You cannot start with that. So do not start with technologists in the room thinking about how nodes work in for our ability and, you know, and putting that a fascinating people with zeros and ones stored in a chain. That's not the way to go about it. It's really, it's really, it's really about that human center. And people kind of really get that. And it's, and it is, and it is ultimately what's, what's critical for adoption. So I'll stop here, but I want to leave you with this, with this really thought to that, you know, as you can tell, I like this sort of over, over analogies. But if you think about back in 2000, we were talking to our kids and talking to everybody, don't talk to strangers on the internet, right? Now we're getting a stranger's car, right? 2016, 10 years afterwards. That's about what I could, what I recall. We kind of went through it and we're advising everybody to use Uber, you get in your car and you go, right? We're kind of in a blockchain in between 2006 and 2016, right? We're still telling sort of the corporations here to lend their people, well, don't talk, don't talk blockchain around, you know, don't hang around and there's what's going to exactly happen. We can, apparently we can add things, but I promise you, think about the exponential curve innovation that's happening. I think before you know it, it is going to hit as, you know, like it's back to 2016 for Uber, it became the mainstream and it wasn't. So the same thing is going to happen in a blockchain. The same thing that happened with the cloud, the same thing happened with other things. We've seen a lot of that going on. And I think that is a, which is actually very exciting. So for us as a practitioners, particularly those who love technology, dear to it, I'm going to put it myself, it is really kind of putting that, you know, in a right perspective and understanding how we can work with organizations to make that happen. So I'll stop here, transfer the floor, we're back to you, Jim, for any additional questions or any additional kind of thoughts here. But, but this is a, this is, this is something that I personally as, as we say, people have seen across many, many blockchains of the projects, but they're commercial and public sector. It is the, it is what I would call the main obstacle in making this work. Yeah. So it's an interesting ending slide. Thank you so much for the session. It's interesting to end on the Uber slide that you have, just because sometimes there is controversy around Uber and exactly as you said, dangerous getting in their car. But that said, I think you covered almost the entire planet that's possible in terms of the concepts on value. I want to open it up to the floor and just say, if you have questions or ideas, you know, please either raise your hand or unmute yourself and just go ahead and ask Alex what your thought is. Of course, I always have a million questions, but anybody else want to ask a question? I'll throw one thing out there, Alex, your example on the stadium, the exponential one. So my background actually is distributed data before blockchain. So I was engineering that all over the place. So distributed data real time was not new, right? Blockchain had nothing to do with that. What's interesting to your example, and I use this and I can see, sounds idiotic, if you want to predict the future, look to the past, because I'll argue many times we have what I call solution design patterns in the past that do work. They're just not applied on new technology or new context. And so the most common thing I think is stealing those and reapplying them to the current context. And the best example is your stadium example about exponential growth. So when I listen and I look at Hyperledger, I just got off a project where Hyperledger fabric, we were at the point where we're doing 200 transactions a second, which is pretty good in fabric. It's not meeting the exact benchmarks IBM publishes with their different output cluster sizes and so on at all. But that's a reasonably good benchmark. And if you compare 200 TPS of real transactions to what you can do in Ethernet or Bitcoin, it's millions of miles ahead. They're layer two architecture, they're layer twos that they're promoting is not designed for what I call high volume real time anything. And it never will be. It's just it is a different world. But I'm optimistic about the future. And the only reason I say that is going back five years ago, I led a project for Apple on creating a data warehouse with Data Lake, data services and all that. And in there, we were just using MySQL, right? Just a regular database. But tuning matters. Not even more the capacity. And so at the end of it, I wound up being able to do 3.3 billion transactions, writes, not reads writes in MySQL in 19 hours. And it's like I compare that to what we just did in fabric. And that's almost 200 times faster, not quite than what we are able to achieve in fabric today. And I look at it and say, Oh, what's the difference? The difference is we have yet to apply those engineering patterns on the blockchain. So when somebody says to me, it looks like, Oh, it's kind of slow. Well, yeah, because we haven't done much on the engineering end today, honestly. And so in that sense, I'll say the landscape is wide open to look at other applications that other people would run away from. Because there's not too many places where I can say a single server did 19 3.3 billion transactions in 19 hours. And if you cluster that up, you know, by 10 times, there's not a lot you couldn't handle. And so I'll say again, it's the engineering design stuff. There's and the biggest thing to your point on constraints is what people and I'll say specifically engineers bring to the table, which is assumptions about how it has to work, how it has to be done, and what can't be done. And what's really amazing is when you flip it and say, Well, what if we just eliminated those, you know, pretend I'm the idiot in the room and just ask the questions. All of a sudden, all those constraints. Oh, yeah, there's another way to do that that we could we don't have to apply today's technology or today's solution pattern. So it opens up the door endlessly to things that people assume, just based on current results were sort of locked into to some degree. So that's a big thing. One thing I'll ask you along that line on the engineering thing I laugh, the concept of, as you know, many blockchains use what I call a Merkel tree, right, as a way to organize data on a blockchain. And so one of the simple things I always laugh about is like, okay, that simple slogan that says you can't see the forest through the trees. And what's missing is the Merkel forest. And somehow nobody came up with the idea that Merkel forest isn't there today. And yet it is in all these other domains. And so I just laugh and say, well, somebody's actually going to say, Oh, yeah, let's write the Merkel forest so we can see all the trees efficiently. But that hasn't been done yet. So there's a lot of room in this technology space to revolutionize it performance wise by a factor of 100 or 200 and make it a lot more flexible to the applications that you would consider important. Absolutely, Jim, I think you hit this and I cannot tell you how many questions I get on a daily basis about the speed. And I'm telling you with the noble starts with the hyper lecture program was the 1.0. Now, now we have so many, so many more things with all of that. What I've seen is really 20 transactions. Second, and, you know, we're kind of was interesting like, well, that's much better look at the Bitcoin, you know, people going to Bitcoin conference waiting for hours to get transactions to get a ticket in. Right. And kind of when you start with when you start with that, like I tell you today, the seven thousand experiment team with the hyper ledger and others other quarter, we're getting in thousands and thousands of times, we're getting to, you know, credit card speed, we're getting to this, we're already there, if not, so it's not just mainstream yet. So that you were right, Jim, that exponential curve is there and it's going to hit us. We all sit in there and thinking, oh, it's just 10 transactional second. And listen, I'm first one to say you have 200 transactions a second. You and I did a lot of blockchain implementation and contracting. And you're like, do you have 200 contracts process in one second? Really? You do? Wow. But for you, that human problem, right? But for the most part, that doesn't matter when we start mattering is some of those digital marketing decisions. If you could do digital marketing on blockchain and remove fraud, you'll be sending tons of money to advertisers and everybody else, right? But that requires enormous speed. So even with those 200, Jim, our service feed is pretty cool. We're in thousands and even more than that. So we we can definitely get there and get better and better and better. People still think we're on six inches. Nothing's happening. We're going to move in nowhere. It's just not true. So one day just going to go over just like cloud day. I remember talking to my dear colleagues at the DHS when they're saying we're never going to use cloud ever. Ask them today. It's like almost all the department went to cloud. So it's the beauty of recognizing whether we're only on those 6.2 inches deep of water. And I think that we are. One other thing, Alex, I have a question from the live stream that had asked whether or not we can apply Hyperledger and your concept to DeFi projects on finance? Yes. Totally. I would say that some of the finance project that we worked on, some of the banks, we definitely apply that. So I think it's kind of all, it's all pretty universal concept. I think most people get it. It's intuitive. But just sometimes when you get into the delivery, you just limit stuff into something very narrow and you don't think about all the call of this work together. Okay. Let me stop and pause for a second. Just ask the audience. Do we have anybody else that has a question as well? Hey, Jim. It's Jim St. Clair. Yeah, I had my hand up for just a second. And I just wanted to comment because I thought your comments were excellent as were as Alex's. And it's good to see you again, Alex. Speaking on behalf of the Hyperledger community as a whole, Hyperledger Foundation, I think we still have tremendous challenges with education because we walk into these blockchain conversations and I'll just use LinkedIn as an example with so many conversations. And someone will be presenting a blockchain discussion point that I happen to know they're referring to a Hyperledger implementation, whatever flavor Hyperledger. And then somebody pipes up and says something about, yeah, but what about the gas fees or something? Just the misunderstanding of the differences between Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Hyperledger and fundamentally what Hyperledger as an enterprise application is capable of doing and no criticism intended. But even just within Hyperledger Foundation itself, as you and I have talked about, you show up in a fabric session and say, well, they're doing this over in Ursa or they're doing this over in Indy and people's minds are blown. And so to this last question, I was pleased to be part of the committee for the Hyperledger Global Forum that's coming up to help select what's being presented. And there is some tremendously exciting presentations lined up, I think, in Hyperledger Global Forum that to our conversation here show where some of these different permutations and new models for Hyperledger are going around decentralized finance, identity, unification between chain transactions in Ethereum to Hyperledger Bezu, other applications of NFTs. So I would encourage everyone to sign up for the Global Forum coming up in June because there's some cool stuff and also give you a good education, I think, on the breadth and depth to where Hyperledger is going. Yeah, excellent comments, Jim. For sure on where the Global Forum said it as well. And Jim, since you actually unmuted yourself, I'm going to pick on you for another thought and see what Alex thinks about it. But the concept, I'll call it, I'll say the traditional model for customer experience now that's so exciting is we always say human centered everything. And I say, ah, that's the old school. That's not the new school. So what I mean is in the old days, we had everything that was, in a sense, a lot of technicians are always be tech centered. And you're right, that's the wrong place to start is don't look at the technology, start with a problem and what you're trying to solve. And in the, and I'll say the old school thinking is, oh, already start with the user, you know, the customer, in a sense. And I think in many cases, you hit it, Alex, especially with AI and automation, you know, leave blockchain alone for a second, you add AI and automation in there. And the question is, who is the customer, right? Who is the user? And the answer is, I don't think the user is human anymore. So don't tell me it's a human centered thing. I'm working on a smart energy app. And in the energy app, we did something because people own it to Jim's point, actually brilliant point, Jim, about what people understand. People only understand what they already know. So when we want to communicate this energy peer to peer trading app, we said, okay, so the person that paid us to do it says, I see a trading platform. So we created a traditional trading platform that users would use. And so I actually talked to a bunch of real engineers in utility grids and so on. And it was very obvious that the work of, you know, Jim St. Clair, having to make trades back and forth peer to peer on energy was just a stupid idea, you know, that he would actually have to do that. There's no value to that activity at all. It's something we could 100% automate, right? So you would literally in the future vision using AI is say, no, let's do the trading directly. Let's create the marketplace, but let's eliminate the people we don't need. You could have a dashboard, but we don't need people to be looking at a dashboard and actually taking actions. All you have to do is say, boom, would you like to have an option to optimize your monthly utility bill? Click here. You know, there's no charge for it. Just click on your profile for your account. And if you elect that, we would do automated trading underneath for you and show you a potential, or at first potential gains, but actual real gains that are varying all over the place, but based on the variable demand for energy. So we can automate that trading for you without using people in the process. And I'll pick on you, Jim, because I think you're in the healthcare space. And the way healthcare is moving, it's like it's on me to figure out, do I have a problem? It's on me to reach out to a health care service provider. It's always on me to be smart enough, educated enough and everything else. And the place you live, it doesn't look like the future to me. It looks very different, I think, in your space. Yeah, the first thing I'd say is I know Alex and I, gosh, going back almost three years ago, talked about these cases in the public sector. And speaking as a former management consultant, my attitude was always, and I think this supports what you're saying, Jim, define the business case first. There are so many cases where people were trying to, and I have this conversation in healthcare all the time and people say, well, what's the use of blockchain and healthcare? And I'm like, well, rewind for a second. We're not just trying to throw blockchain and healthcare. What we're trying to do is improve a process where decentralization of the activities leads to either a unique capability or an improvement of things. And I think from a healthcare perspective, and I don't want to necessarily call out Adrian, but he is an expert in this as well, the concepts of privacy and user control of information relative to AI are very challenging things. And we have strong cultural opposition to the idea that I should decide first and foremost how my data is being used and how I can send to its use, especially in healthcare. And there are trade-offs there that haven't been decided where, do I really, should I really be in a position to keep my doctor from knowing something? Maybe yes, maybe no, but that trade-off should be something that's facilitated or discussed as part of the business case. And right now the default case is we just have all of your data and we decide what's going to be done with it. And even the changes under the 21st Country Cures Act basically says, oh, fine. So you want your information? There, use some APIs and you can get it all. And our corporate position on the issue is, well, no, you should be able to get access to your data because it's your right, but you should be able to control that in the context of how you manage your identity and the consent for that data at the same time. And there's lots of ways to do it, but I happen to be pretty religious from a former auditing and compliance standpoint that the hyperledger frameworks around Indian Aries provide the most transparent and enterprise deployable ways to do that. Can I do some of that using Microsoft Ion and Bitcoin? Sure, but there's public DIDs there that may create HIPAA challenges. Can I do it with Ethereum? Maybe, but quite frankly, if I walk into a major health center and start talking about using Ethereum, they're going to laugh me out the door. But there are fundamental principles of decentralization that support that business case for user-controlled identity that you look at first. That's my take on it. Yeah, and you're 100% right. And I think healthcare, there's many applications for blockchain technology and so on and AI, obviously, but because of the nature of the pandemic and everything else going on, I would say healthcare is in a lead role in driving a lot of that stuff for sure. All of the problems, the challenges, they all come up in your domain for sure. And what's interesting, I think your point is well taken about the Indie Aries approach to an open identity model based on self-sorting identity, the idea that I can control my identity, I decide who I'm going to share it with, and the beauty of having run a project for a state last year that went well using that, we did business licensing for a state and with individuals and so on. But the beauty was, the whole thing was concentrary, which is unbelievable. So we had this massive record of the fact that the state grants you a license and says, Jim, you're now an account. The thing is, you actually had to accept that license. The level of consent management and control was phenomenal. And then the history is there on the blockchain. It's all there. So the other issues that do come up to me in our domain and maybe in healthcare as well, most of those can be attacked with one of two things, either data masking or aggregation. So it's up to where the laws are going to shake out on this. But if you look at, I can control my own health data. I don't want to share my health data personally with anybody, right? But the point of it is, if you take my data and then just aggregate the data, the aggregated data probably has less resistance, I assume, to being shared because it's aggregated. It's not individual. And the only other thing that we did this in banking was we used to do data masking all the time. So here's Jim's real health profile. But now it turns into Donald Duck. So you have the actual individual records, but they're not, in a sense, something that can be tied back to me personally. I like those standards. I mean, I think, like open banking, open energy, all those standards, all those standards are there. And I like, and I like, this is this is a phenomenal idea. It's all logical. You should decide what to do with your data. Like, just because somebody's lazy and gets your data, and I'm like, I got it, I can do it. You just can't do many many of those things. And they're actually some pretty good. And I think the health research gem is going to be changed relatively soon. How do you run those experiments? How do you compute? I want to run experiments on my own. I mean, we're reaching this stage is why do you need a million researchers I can run to data should be democratized so that you can do that. You can check yourself. Obviously, the certain obviously, consent and all of that. And we will get to that how to get that and I agree with you more enterprise ready systems like hyper ledger of nicely positioned to do that makes perfect sense from many, many perspectives, but also your Mason, I think you're hitting on something very nice that typically tease people and say, Well, the bots are humans too, they have feelings too. So we should do the bot center design. So that teasing says, and that's another ways is a lot of time people forget there are a lot more users and factors that I interact in how humans interact with bots is also important. And that's what makes you X and CX way more complex than it is. Looks at the very first kind of classical edge, but I'm just in the room and you tell me what you want. I want to figure it out. It's way more complex. Absolutely. I'd give Adrian a chance to comment because I know he came off video and his expertise in this area. What we're doing in my data is a great, great example. Yeah, this is a very much a business oriented session. And I think given the experience in the government sector, the opportunity in healthcare is in the government sector, because they are the payers directly and indirectly, you know, they're paid for way more than half of the healthcare that's on. The healthcare in the US is wasting a trillion dollars a year. They are not interested in any of the business process improvements that you mentioned because transparency of the waste is the last thing that they want. So there's very little hope in the short run of selling any of the stuff you're talking about into the hospital provider sector or even to some extent into the private insurance sector. But on the other hand, so much of the business is controlled by government through Medicare, through Medicaid policies, if not directly, that they in effect can impose change and transformation because very few entities on the provider side can afford to ignore the Medicare rules. And they don't need a law to do that because they don't even need regulation. They just need policy. And I think in selling blockchain and digital transformation to the healthcare sector, that is the fastest way to go. But they do not go easily. Again, because of, you know, the way politics works and people leave their jobs in regulatory and regulation and go back to industry, but that's my opinion. Yeah, Adrian, that's a brilliant point about, I'll call it the health establishment, if you will, and not just the private side, but more the public side. I have to call myself, I'm a visual example of what I call Medicare roadkill. So I'm on Medicare, but if I die, it will have been Medicare that killed me, honestly, because of the administration of it is just it's the complexity of the current systems, the data inaccuracy, the data quality, all of those issues are phenomenal going through that system. And as a guy who went through that, the way it ties out today in healthcare, it actually starts with IRS, it then goes to Social Security, then it goes to Medicare, and then eventually from Medicare, it'll go out to the insurance providers to figure out what you're going to pay and how you get paid and how much you get charged for something. It's a long process. And having literally lived through what I call the horror show of data problems that aren't correctable on government systems in many cases. It took, in my case, 10 months and I don't know, 57 phone calls, I believe, and a tempted lawsuit just to get a $400 bill paid for something I was covered for, which is not unusual, I don't think. I don't think I'm the only person that goes through that, but it's a challenging system to your point. And the question I'll throw back is on the both you and Alex is, what is the strategy for change? If I look at something like healthcare providers, maybe there's more options, maybe I'm not locked into one, but with the government, there's only one to your point, only one system. And so back to your point, how do you drive In healthcare, it's easy. You just aim for transparency because you can't manage what you can't measure, just like we avoided measuring the impact of gun laws for decades. And now we find ourselves struggling to figure out what kind of policies might work, flag laws work, et cetera, et cetera. The healthcare will only be fixed through transparency. And if you can link your proposal to transparency and still sell it to whoever the customer is, you're golden. But that's the problem. And you're right. So I guess it comes down to, in our world, I'll call it publicity, probably, to publicize the problem. Much like people try to publicize the pandemic or climate change, it's going to come down to that. And I don't know how many people have direct experience with problems through a healthcare system. But I'll say you're right. We had in an identity 2020 act that never got implemented by the federal government. That got shot down. It was voted on, didn't get passed and never made it out of the house. But it was an important step forward in trying to get transparency. You're looking in the wrong place. You have to listen to what Alex was saying about digital transformation. You can't be looking at this from the identity. No, I wasn't. I was going to say, back to your point on transparency, and you're 100% right, is we don't have transparency. And I would agree with you that only 98% of probably all problems would be improved with transparency for sure. And so the question is, what do you see, as I call it a transparency act, if you will, that we could look at, define, and then actually, in a sense, vote on and implement, because that does make a lot of sense. It does. It does. I mean, I'm more, I mean, obviously, there's many aspects to it, but I mean, I was in disclosure, I mean, I work with HHS, and they were the ones that first implementers of the blockchain and government space, so much faster than many others. So, I mean, they started, they started that. And so I've seen government folks really thinking about it and public sector folks, and I would agree, probably, there's a lot more in our region and the government side, that you can kind of push that, have a ripple effect change through the public sector, through them, sorry, through the private sector, just the way, like you said, that I think it's a, I think it's a, it's where it comes down to, and what I've seen most of it, like, you know, coming back to CLAW, or anything like that is, when you speak with all those folks, I spoke with a lot of them, is that really comes down to making this a very straightforward argument of what is happening and not doing big banks. I think a lot of folks come and talk to, I don't know folks about doing big banks, oh, we're going to just go in there, we're changing everything over and over again. Also, it doesn't work that way. I mean, shock how much of that is happening, instead of really, really rolling up your sleeves and figuring out how do we get that transparency and how do you sort of hear it, start there, and, and doing it in a, in a, in a very direct, like today, even like, if you look at it, the Department of Homeland Security today, they're experimenting in making green cards on a blockchain. So it's moving on. It's moving on every, every front. That's the last, last place I would think they would, they would go with the blockchain, but it's not. So things are, things are moving, moving well across the board, which just have to kind of get more tighter with this, with this, with this, with this use case, and with the, with the transformation, how this works. I think we're going to get there. We're going to get there. I'm optimistic, despite, despite all of that. I mean, I, I'll never forget, as I said, I'll repeat again, my cloud conversation with very high level government people said, never going to happen here. Are you out of your mind? I'm never going to put my data somewhere in some, just who knows who controls it, right? Today is like, you have a good day in your government center. Now you're sure it's safe. So it's, I kind of work top of this. So, so you've got to be careful about that, really exponential. We had those six inches right now. So we're going to see a lot more change, a lot of going faster. So, you know, eat popcorn and watch it or be part of it. I think it's, it's, it's really what's up. Yeah. Yeah, I did want to say thanks to Adrian though, the point on transparency goes across the board for literally everything. And without it, it's very hard to drive change anywhere. So that's kind of like a core building block for trust is it begins with transparency, I guess. We have another comment. I want to point out from Jayakar in the chat, talking about a portable, unique digital medical record in hyperledger framework is a basic facility to control, I guess, COVID as accurate data is imperative for any new research and development, which is true. And that's a great idea. You know, the idea, it does work. I'll say even in the identity space, you know, we implemented what was available in wallet standards and so on. And yet those are moving verifiable credentials. W3C has one now. So it's great when we have in a sense of solution like this portable medical record and anything that becomes a standard is a huge win for us. One other thing I want to point out, Daniella has mentioned a couple of things. Number one, if you're looking at the global forum and I'll make sure I publish it on our website with a meeting reporting, there's a discount available, a discount code you can use to register for hyperledger global forum. And then also, there's a... And the ticket's only $50. And if someone's not, doesn't qualify as a non-profit or a government, there's some scholarships or just go ahead and reach out to myself, Jim. Yeah, can you cover the other point about the data? Sure. When we were just talking about data, there's a project going on right now at the World Economic Forum. It's called the Data for Common Purpose Initiative and hyperledger is participating in that work, primarily around the interoperability chapter. Maybe I didn't know if they had come over and kind of talked to you about that initiative. It might be something good to do a presentation on in this segment. Yeah, no, that's a great idea. And actually, you're right. I'm part of the blockchain forum over there and there's certain topics they cover, but that certainly isn't part of what we've covered over there. And then there also is the EC now has a new blockchain proposal out, which I think is also worthy of covering as well. So they also lead like GDPR, you know, they obviously threw that out there long before the US did anything. And then I'd say certainly your Data Common Purpose Initiative would be pretty cool to get a session here on that. That's excellent. Okay, I do need to run as well. Okay. All right. Well, I want to thank everybody today. I know we're a little bit over for the session, but I do have the session recording. I'm going to post that and Alex, if I can ask you if I can get a PDF of your slide presentation, I'll post that as well. And so it's been a great session.