 We'll start our meeting back up. We have Jennifer Holler with us and Gus Sealick from VHCB. And they're with us this morning to discuss farm labor housing and housing in general on farms. And I guess Gus, back a week or two or three ago, we had Dan Baker in from UVM and Buster Caswell, I think. And I don't know if you've received any of the information that Dan presented to us on their research and follow up from his research. But what it showed of the committee was that we're really slacking on farm labor housing, overcrowdedness, some poor conditions, and he has the numbers. And so we dug into that a little more and found that there's USDA has a federal program that has two or three different sections or segments to it. And Michael O'Grady, our council person, has done some research on that. And I guess what we wanted to chat with you about is because you're the guy that does the housing stuff and actually has a couple of dollars to do it with. If we could put something together on a trial basis maybe or something to try to move into that area to some degree to get some of this farm labor housing updated and have it so it's presentable. So when we bring immigrants in, these foreign workers, at least they have a decent place to be able to live while they're here. So I don't know if you folks have thought about that, Gus. I bet you have. And get your take on it. So I'm familiar but not intimately familiar with Dan's research. And this is a longstanding issue. And I really think it goes to a broader issue of how Vermont manages quality in housing and enforces codes generally. And I think there's discussion of that going on in the state house as well and has been for quite a number of years. From our perspective, what we did, and I actually had a meeting with Secretary Tevitz and his team on this issue a couple of weeks ago, last year we commissioned a report on farm labor housing works in mid-April. A fellow named John Ryan and an associate of his has been working on it. And Dan's research is part of his report. So I don't have the preliminary discussion with John about a month ago. And what he said to me was that the number one thing we really needed to focus on, some kind of revolving fund to help repair housing that's in poor shape. And so I think that's one of the things that we are planning on. We always appreciate the opportunity to bring federal money into the state and leverage it as much as we possibly can. I understand, but I'm not an expert here, that there have been a number of barriers in using the rural development programs. But we would be happy to experiment with trying to work with rural development and with the farm community to bring those funds in. There's both an onsite farm labor housing program. I think that's been used more. And I think the offsite program has never been used in Vermont. And that may also go to the status of some of our farm laborers in terms of that. So those are some of the barriers. But I think we definitely would like to move ahead on the repair side of things. And we would be happy to look at whether there's a way to help farmers use these resources. One of the issues I think with the loan program is what happens to the housing if you don't have the circumstances of the farm change and you don't have the need for it for farm labor. And I don't think USDA looks kindly on leasing it out to people other than farm workers or retired farm workers. So that's been one of the barriers. And there are statute, our fund, we're supposed to use invest in housing that will be permanently affordable. And that sometimes causes people to say, well, we don't want your money in the deal because we want to be able to do something else with the property down the road. But having said that and knowing that the governor's recommendation is quite large this year and he wants us to focus on workforce among other things. And farm labor is absolutely part of our workforce. We would appreciate the opportunity to make that a part of the focus of our work in the coming year. Lastly, I would say to you is we will need, you know, as you know, we don't do this work. We work with community-based partners. So I've begun a discussion with the Champlain Housing Trust, which works in Franklin County and Summon Addison County, managing a repair program. We were going to design this guss for Orleans and Essex County, not Franklin and Chittenden County. Well, I, no, I was going to- Bobby, you represent two Franklin County towns. Yes, I was going to remind you of that. And also say the other organization I've begun the discussion with is Rural Edge, which obviously covers Orleans County. Yeah. That would get us to the biggest farm counties. So we've begun that discussion. One of the things John said to me is this is an issue that really needs a champion. It's probably going to need outreach from the co-ops and support from them as well to make something good happen. Yeah. The, Michael, you want, did you want to run over a little bit about what you learned from your quick research that you dug up? So Gus this morning, Jen, this morning, I talked with a staffer at USDA Rural Development's Vermont office. And she specifically does the rural housing and rural repair grant program, not the farm labor program. And she basically said that the rural housing and rural repair would not be ideal because one of the eligibility requirements of that is that the properties owner occupied. And that basically eliminates the ability to use tenants. But we started talking a little bit about the farm labor program, which she is not the most first in, but she gave the issue of on-site off-site. She referenced the fact that there is a citizenship requirement. But she said for the on-site program, they don't really run into that much in Vermont because they provide the assistance to the farmer, who's the owner of the farmer. But I'm looking at the requirements right now and the way that they define a domestic farm labor is require citizenship or in the states legally. So I have to track down with the head of the Vermont farm labor program that requirement. But one of the things that she did say is that nonprofit associations can apply for this assistance and then use the money according to the criteria for the program. From what I'm looking at, the rules, that seems largely for the off-arm program, for the off-arm housing, and then you have the citizenship issue again. So I think there's a little bit of a labyrinth that I need to figure out on how this could work. That's what I know. I think the important thing, Michael, that you found out this morning is that, gosh, there is money available. Yeah, that's the important thing is there's federal money available. And, you know, so we could match it up with, you know, some of our money and that would stretch everything out of ways. If any of you guys on the committee have questions, just Chris. Michael, the owner occupied, you used a phrase that was said something like the property. I guess, you know, it seems to me that the property in many cases is owner occupied, but the building is probably not. And I just wonder if I'm hearing a distinction there or that's just wishful thinking. So under the rural, I'm looking at the rural development single-family housing direct home loan program. And this is for construction or purchase of a single-family home. And one of the eligibility requirements is that the applicant needs to agree to occupy the property as your primary residence. Okay. Yeah, I think we're more, I'm at least thinking of repairs and upgrades. Yeah. Gus, when you conserve a farm, is there a discussion or requirement around code at that moment? There is not. Often the buildings are excluded from the easements and there is not. I would say to you that in general, you know, Vermont's approach to code enforcement is pretty lax. And, you know, I know lots of people don't like the heavy hand of government, but I think this is a place where, whether we're talking about on-farm housing or rental housing in general, we probably need a higher degree of oversight than we currently have across the state in all forms of rental housing to help people focus on the things that they need to do to keep people safe. Yeah. Gus, would you need any, if we were to pursue this or if you were to pursue this, would you need any language changes or anything or could you just, with your jurisdiction, move forward? Well, in general, what I'd say is that we are, from the governor's proposal, we're already asking for some language changes. And I think the house is reacted, the other body's reacted well to that, just for flexibility so that we can spend money in the conservation and agriculture areas. And I think in terms of, we may decide, but I think we have a little time to ask you for a little bit of language that would just give us some flexibility about running a repair program where we may not get permanent affordability and that kind of thing. So we may ask you for a change or two that would go with this special appropriation in order to stand up a repair program, but let us get back to you on that as an issue. And Jen, I think, has a thought on the language in front of what you're now. Good morning, Jen Haller with VHCB. VHCB doesn't require any authorizing language change, which this falls, you know, within what we are authorized to do under a statute. But as Gus mentioned, there is the $20 million in one time funding that the governor recommended as an increase for this year. And as the budget was submitted, it said that that was all to be for housing initiatives, but we've worked with the administration and committees on the House side on language that would allow us to use up to $5 million of that for conservation or farm and viability program activities. And so we would hope when the budget comes over to the Senate that you might be able to ask the Appropriations Committee to support that. That said, if that funding comes through that gives us the resources we need, and we don't need anything specific around farm labor housing, and that's our intention to do that. One other thought I had was that the, I know that when you were working with the CRF funds, you found a way to get some assistance to people who aren't documented or who might not qualify for the federal funds. But the beauty of the VHCB state dollars is that we will have the flexibility to help that housing regardless of the status of the residents there if we do set up a revolving fund. And then the last thing I'll mention is that the report that we've commissioned will be done on April 15th, just as a reference point and can share it with you at that time. And I don't know if it'd be helpful, but Linda has a copy of Dan Baker's report that she could forward you folks. And it's always most helpful if we don't have to do a lot of language change and all that. The important job, and I know Gus and we understand is get the work done, get the job done and get the bases covered. But I think I feel that if we could get a bunch of this federal money to do some cost sharing that it would make your dollars go a lot further. And we'd get more work done with less of our state dollars and do you see nonprofits can apply for that? So could you apply for that Gus or would you have like Roll Edge and those people apply for it? That's usually how it works is that they're really in the communities and they're the direct interface with the people who are going to end up in the housing. So that's usually how we would do it. We could be the applicant, but I think it would be more effective if people who are not based in Montpelier but based out in your communities actually are the applicants for those funds. I do need to just give you a caution. And then I'll tell you what I hope the antidote is going to be is that role development is a pretty rigid agency. They're not usually very flexible under the before the Trump era they had a director who was interested in granting waivers and doing lots of demonstration projects. So I'm hoping that now that we that we have a new secretary at USDA, we're going to get the same approach where they're going to do demonstration programs and they'll waive some of their rules. But if we go with the rules that are in place, there's a reason there are reasons that these programs and particularly the offsite program has never been used in Vermont that are hard to overcome. So it's going to take some, some of that kind of work to really pull those dollars in. I'm committed to trying to find a way. We actually got them for the first time anywhere to grant a waiver so that we could do replacement replacement homes and mobile home parks on least land with when Secretary Vislac was in office previously they'd never done that before. And that's what it's going to, it's probably going to take that kind of creativity that we didn't have in the last four years to use that program. And, and who, who does that does do you, do you lobby our congressional people to put something in the budget bill or, or how does, what do you do you're taking to get the waiver. Well, it, it's what I would call a conspiracy of goodwill. So there's a good idea at the community level. The congressional delegation might send a letter to the secretary or the head of rural develop the rural development office. You know, last time around Ted Brady was the State Director and he was interested in lots of experimentation. We don't know who the new State Director is going to be but if you get a good person in that job. Everybody just sort of saying this is a great idea let's give it a try. But we haven't had to have things in the federal budget bill to do that when we were able to get those those waivers. We just needed somebody really willing to try something new. Yeah, well, that's that's good Chris. You mentioned that this issue really needs a champion and I have a feeling this might be it. We, I think the folks assembled here, you know, I'm not sure where else we look for a champion. One of the programs as I understand it that exists already as a federal loan program so low interest, 1% or something. Is there, do you think, and I say this with the context that we're all trying to figure out more options and smarter people than me are going to pull some ideas together but one of them is that we would take that program and buy down. That effectively becomes a zero interest loan program for our farmers or, you know, even though 1% pretty darn low. Do you think you have the flexibility for that kind of approach or is that part of this that's just going to have to be evolving as the budget moves forward. Every farm is different and as you know some some farmers are pretty cash crunched right now given the state of the economy so I think whenever you're asking somebody to take on more debt, even at 0%. It's a, it's a challenge and I think that's why the chair is saying, you know, can you, can you put your money together with this so that further lowers the amount of debt that they need to borrow in total. 0% is good, but you know if you're if your cash, if your cash flow is really tight. That's a, you know, then investing in a new home can be difficult, you know, in my experience, lots of farmers have been very happy to buy a used mobile home and say that's good enough and I think that's a piece of why we're hearing that there's a real need for repair because if you buy an older home, you always have issues. And, and I think that just reflects the fact that you know the price of milk is constricted. Some people have lost milk contracts. Other people are at the beginnings of their careers in agriculture they're you know and it's a takes a lot of capital and a lot of to be a farmer in the next days and and people are pretty well leveraged. So I think that's, that's just generally a big challenge. And I do think most farmers want their labor living on the farm, or very close by. Thanks. So you, we kind of are you talked about and I think we kind of talked in down in in the other room that I'm in about sat in the side and given you flexibility already on the Senate side with that 5 million. We, we still want to do conservation things where it's a good deal for us. And, you know, stuff isn't getting any cheaper, even though there's doesn't seem to be a lot of money around and, and how much do you have any idea what we, we could even think about putting together for this, this little housing deal. We, you know, the budget numbers all changed pretty fast as the administration put its budget together. But I'm inclined to think that, you know, repair fund in the first year in the neighborhood of a half a million dollars and let's see how it goes. And I could be persuaded that it ought to be a little more a little less. We don't want money just sitting in the bank we want it to flow out. But, but that, that was my initial thought, but I haven't even proposed that to my board I have mentioned that as a number to Secretary Tabbits. And, you know, so we want to get something started and see how we can make it work. Well, we talked earlier before you came along and we figured if we could get some federal match money to go with some of your money, you know, somewhere between five and 500 and a million dollars but yet make sure that you have the progression of moving that back if things, you know, they don't move along like they should, then you just go put it back into regular housing or whatever. That sort of approach, you know, that's the sort of thing we would do is we don't we don't want money sitting in our bank account that doesn't do for monitors any good. And so, but I thought, you know, if we get a half million dollars on the street and it moves quickly then you add to it and if it is sitting there maybe you pull some of it back. And we'll see what what the take up is is going to be. And, you know, sitting in the bank though with all that interest you all that one one and a quarter percent here. You're really doing pretty good with it in the bank. Well, the interest rates have gone down. It's even more. I've gone down but again we always want the money back in the communities. That's where it was. Jen, Mr. Chair when I was racing to make all my points earlier I could it look like it look like my cat a couple questions and I want to be sure that Gus and I don't miss those if he has questions for us. My only question was about whether or not you need flexibility in that 20 million for the ready fund or to use any of that money for ready or is that going to be taken care of through your base. We run that because we run that through the farm and forest viability program the language says that we can use up to 5 million for conservation activities or farm and forest viability program activities so that covers ready. It could be more explicit but our intent would be to expand that. That's all I needed to want. And guess why you're with us. Didn't. Did we talk down in approach about doing them to 275 for ready on the fast track budget part, or did we not. We didn't and I'm not I don't think that that's necessary at this point, I think we're, you know, we were a little slower on ready this year because the staff was so busy with a CRF program help and farmers access those grants so that's a second half of this year activity rather than the first half when they were focused on CRF. Yeah. And to to move to move this forward and to help the farm labor housing coalition people should be able to let them know that that there's going to be some. There's going to be some movement on this and should we get a letter from you get or do us do a letter and send it to them. Well I I traded emails with Mr. Caswell a couple day at the beginning of the week he sent me one and I sent him one back. I'm happy to write you a letter, and you could then share it with him, or write to write to him and copy right to you and copy him on it, and that'll do the. But if you want to do something or official. I don't really need to up here. Maybe Brian champion with like a letter that he could put in the front page of the banner, helping him down in Bennington County. And Senator Sears have a little thing going about who gets above the phone in the paper. And so I'm just kidding. No, if you just do that guess that would be that would be fine. Yeah. Anything else from any of the committee members. No. Did you have any questions for us on any of the, you know, any of the projects or issues, anything we can help you with. You know, I think our key issue is just going to be the flexibility. And as, as we said, the other body seems to be supportive of that at the moment, but we wanted to make you aware of it. Just, yeah, we were, we were very grateful that not just did the House Ag committee support flexibility, but the House General and Housing Committee also supported the flexibility. So there's a recognition that, you know, our rural communities need help. And through the viability program and the ready program, those are ways to help rural communities, along with our conservation work. So, well, we certainly all we certainly all have to work together to make the most of what we have. Yeah, if there are no other questions. I think Jen had one other point to make. I'm just going to, in case it's helpful, just going to note that the fast track bill the CRF bill does have money, CRF money to be allocated to VHCB for housing and I just want to clarify that that specifically for housing the homeless related to the pandemic we would not be able to use that funding for this particular purpose. And then the 20 million in one time funding the governor recommended is for all that broader range of housing needs whether it's home ownership or rental housing. And that's what we would be able to use for the farm labor housing so just because there's multiple bills moving this year I thought it may be helpful to make that distinction. So that would be the July one funds right. 20 million would be the July one funds yes and there's and there's a CRF money in the fast track bill about to land and send it appropriations. I don't know when you get out from town meeting break that that has money for housing but that's very specifically for homelessness related to the pandemic. And how, how long do you think it would take us our agenda for like roll out your champagne housing or any of those groups to get geared up to try to get this some federal money going. I hope will be hard at work on it this summer. So the July one date would not mess anything up then. No, because they we want we want to get that federal money if we possibly can. Yes, we do. Yeah. So, and you're going to talk you or Jen or somebody's going to talk to those groups right about. We will. Yeah, yeah, I've already begun a discussion with both of them. Yeah, and we participate in that loose stakeholder group that Dan and Buster talked to you about we've been we're part of that group. Yeah. And they're where the study coming to. Yeah. I think, I think everything I think my gaze going quite well. Well, I'm glad to hear that and I hope the whole committee goes well that you have a wonderful break next week. Yeah, working hard and and I hope you can get away from zoom at least a little bit. Won't that be a break. Well, thanks a lot. Gus and Jen, and you'll have a break with us out of town so good luck to you. Okay. Yeah, thanks a lot. Okay, yeah. So I think committee. I think it's strange how we do stuff and then the Ag department kind right in and gets going on it was pretty good. We all get to pulling that buggy in the same direction there we may get something done. The, but that I think Gus has got a good handle on it. The Linda you're going to send Gus that report. Yeah. Yeah, good. Any other comments from anybody. I don't know if, if, if Bakers, if we ought to get him tuned in so that he pushes the coalition to push to get stuff rolling or. I mean, I, you know, we've, we've as you just said, kind of stimulated the right discussion. I think, I think for my money, we got to just keep an eye on it and not let it drop. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we'll, we'll review it then from time to time. Check in with, of course they aren't going to do anything till July by the sound but these housing agencies, they've got to start applying for some of this, this money or it'll be gone and they won't be, it won't be there. Anything, Michael from on your part that we need to think about or do or look at. I can't think of anything I'm still going to try to track down the farm labor person in Vermont housing person in Vermont. But just looking at the rules, the federal rules for that it's, it's going to be hard. The nonprofit has to certify that it's going to comply with all the tenant housing requirements. And there's a, there's a citizenship requirement for that. And so it's, it would be tough for that nonprofit to do that and then. Are you basically, you know, a significant portion of the farm labor community in Vermont might not qualify. You talk about, we talk about that Michael, but I was reading this morning that down in freaking Texas, they've gone through and rebuilt whole apartment houses under farm labor housing and you know, Well, that's, that's the off farm multi unit program. But that's more stringent I thought you said it is, it is, and they're down there redoing whole blocks. So I, I don't, I, you know, I can't comment on how they're doing it, but I look at those rules and I still follow up, I think it's going to be, it's going to be difficult. Well, that's Washington for you. The seasonal employees that come on visas, they would still qualify. But you have to be, you have to be in the United States legally. And I thought, I thought earlier you said something to the effect that if the farmer is the owner of the property and it's only for farm labor tenant housing. There's the off farm where, where the, the nonprofit organization can be the applicant. But then there's the on farm where the farmer is the applicant. Yeah. And so the person I talked to this morning said that they just look at the eligibility requirements for the farmer. Right. So on farm might not be as much of an issue, but you're not going to be having the nonprofit being involved in that application. But that's alone. But that's alone. So we got to figure out how to get around who's going to be doing the application to have on farm. Because most of farmers like to have their, their veggie pickers, their, you know, the milkers, their sheep herders, they like to have them on the property. They like to have it all possible. So. So we got to figure out some way to fix these, who's going to apply for the money to fix on farm properties. Yeah, and, and you're going to, you know, I'm looking at what one of the requirements is for both programs that's an occupancy restriction and it says an eligible household domestic tenant. That is a, is a domestic farm labor. Yeah. And so domestic farm labor is defined as, as meeting the citizenship requirement. So I, I have to dig into this more. Yeah. Well, you know, I think we, we certainly have time. I was wondering from the other day when we decided to talk about this this morning, if, if a group like Farm Bureau or roll Vermont or no fa, or, you know, if those nonprofit groups like that would be interested in participating in helping out with, with farm labor housing at all. And, you know, just thought I'd run that by the committee and, and, you know, Jackie or, you know, Maddie or some of them might, they might be interested in, in helping to put, put this together to some degree. Again, and then Chris. Yeah, thanks Bobby. I just actually we all just got an email from Jackie Folsom saying that she's going to work with Vermont Farm Bureau to get the word out whatever funding is available so you can bet they'll be working on it. Yeah. And Chris. I think it tastes something similar. I think Gus was saying, suggesting that co ops as partner but but it's more in the vein of what Brian just said of, of telling folks what we end up doing rather than brainstorming with us, although maybe to extent they're watching, you know, we clearly need the help. Michael, any sense of whether or not folks at the agency are also I mean, this is complicated and hard enough that we haven't done it to date right that it so so that always suggests to me it's not a new problem. We haven't focused enough to to address it yet but I wonder if, rather than only ask you to do the brainstorming if if there are folks that you're might be aware of over the agency that are looking into it they've now stated this as something they're trying to work on as well. I can always reach out. I probably start with Deputy Secretary Eastman and see where that goes. I think that'd be smart. Certainly. You know any help we can get from any direction. You know, like I said, the main thing is to get the work done not not play in the mud all day get out there and get it done. So anything else guys. Also, also. Well, I think then we'll we'll call it quits and see you at 1130 on the floor. Chris, we better check with Linda to see if she's heard anything back. Yeah, right. I have not seen my want to follow up on that. Michael you don't know anything about that stuff do you. I'm sorry I was looking at an email. Could you repeat the question. This is to get bill numbers for our two committee bills. We have the bill numbers we just that they weren't they came in late and I think they're trying to get them on the calendar today but not sure. Do you know what they are Linda. S 100 is the education bill and S 102 is the other one. So, yeah. So, deep what we want to do Michael is, is s 100. It hasn't been posted on the calendar. And I think there's a motion that you can make. Prior to posting on the calendar, you know you stand up. I move that we move committee. Committee bill s 102 education for further review. And, and we, we just needed that language to conform with our rules and rags and. What, yeah, Michael, it's not really a question for you is it. No, it's basically you stand up and you you move at the bill be committed to whatever committee you wanted to be committed to. And, and secretary bloomer will be able to advise you when and how to do that. Yeah, I'll call bloomer right now. And we've got an hour and I'll have him email you and I the specific language I have a feeling it's pen suspended rules to pending entrance on the notice calendar refer blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah. I'm happy to, to contact bloomer and get him to email you and I the language we need to use. Yeah, that sounds good. So, have a good hour offer.