 I'm Josh Mandel, Director of Policy and International Programs at Halsey on Incubator. Thank you for joining us. I'll be your moderator for today's global innovation through science and technology or GIST Tech Connect conversation on gamification, making your product engaging and fun. So gamification uses elements of gameplay, often on websites and within apps, to motivate and engage customers, to generate buzz, and to make products fun to use. Entrepreneurs in many sectors have incorporated it into their product design, marketing, and customer engagement strategies. It can also be used internally within a business to motivate employees on certain tasks, leading to increased performance and better teamwork. So remember, you can join our discussion by sending us your questions and comments through the chat space next to the video player or on Twitter using hashtag GIST Tech Connect. And on that note, we thought we would add a little gamification to today's web chat. So whoever tweets the most about this program over the next hour will get a special shout out at the end. And if you include a photo of you or your group, we'll show it. Just make sure to include hashtag GIST Tech Connect. So looking forward to seeing all of those tweets. So let me begin by welcoming our panel of experts. I'm joined by Elena Bertotzi. Elena is an associate professor at Kinepac University, specializing in game design and development. I'm also joined by Mandy Holford. Mandy is associate perfecter at Hunter College and CUNY Graduate Center. She's also a co-founder of a startup software company called Killersnails.com, awesome name. So thank you both for joining me today. As we wait for viewers to send us their questions, I'd like to kick off the discussion by asking you to tell us a little bit about your own experiences with gamification. And how can startups use it to make their products more appealing to customers? Elena, let's start with you. We're also going to show a clip from one of the interactive games you created. Hi. Thanks for having me on the show. So my work is focused on using games to address intractable problems. So things that are very difficult to address through traditional means, we can find a way to deal with them using games. So the product that we're showing now is the My Future Family game. And the problem that we are addressing here is that it's very hard to get good data about young people's family planning intentions in India in order to better inform them about human sexuality and reproduction, and also encourage them to be able to use birth control methods. So as we know, India has a very large population, and they're trying to control that population. And past methods of trying to change people's behavior have not worked very well. So the goal of this particular game, which we feel tested in India, is to collect information from young people about what their intentions are and also give them information about how human sexuality and reproduction work, because they're not getting any information about that at home or in school. And then we will further go back with an expanded game to actually teach them about birth control methods. So our goals here were to get good data about family planning and to give them information. And we really validated this game as a tool for doing both of those things. Thanks a lot, Ellen. Mandy, can you tell us a bit about killer snails and how you use gamification? Sure. So killer snails, we use games basically to teach science. And our logo is Games Down to a Science. Killer snails are these snails that feed on fish, worms, and other snails. And they have a venom. They're an example of extreme biodiversity. And so our first game, Assassins of the Sea, because these snails kill other things, uses the games of the venom of the snails to teach kids what the snails do, how they feed. We have both an analog and a digital game that you can get from the website, killer snails.com. And what we're trying to show students is how the venom from these snails can actually be used as potential cures to treat diseases, such as cancer and pain. The first drug from these snails is out in the market right now. We're also developing a VR game because we'd like to both enter the classroom using cardboard, using digital, and using VR to get students really excited about the content. And we try to say that you learn through mechanics. So by building the game, we're able to show them the content of what these killer snails are doing, what their venom is doing, the potential for drug discovery, and not just our snails, but we're hoping to expose them to all kinds of extreme biodiversity. And so that's why we're sort of co-op killer snails, because our company wants to reflect what nature is doing in the classroom using real science built on the science from my laboratory that we are bringing into the classroom and using games to teach what scientists are doing currently. Thank you, Mandy. So still ahead, we'll ask our panel of experts to tell us what resources are available to learn more about gamification. But first, let's dig into the poll question we asked on social media in the days leading up to this program. So we asked, what component of your startup could most benefit from gamification? So you can see the results on the screen. So the top answer was increasing customer engagement at 35%, followed by marketing, then making your product more fun to use. So looking at that data, Mandy and Elena, I mean, what are reactions to the poll? Mandy, let's start with you. OK. So the poll actually speaks to why we started this company. We wanted most middle school kids are falling out of science. They're finding it boring. They don't think it's for them. And so our idea of how we should teach science, because the studies show it's not what we teach, it's how we teach. So we wanted to use games to teach it more effectively. And that's basically what we've done in creating our first game, Assassins of the Sea, which we piloted in several middle schools throughout the US. And with the virtual game, we're hoping to go even broader. But gamification is a very effective tool, not only for making sure that you get your content out there, but if used wisely, studies have shown that it can increase learning, especially in school students. And so I think that the results are not that surprising, because it's sort of in line with what we found with our games and what's in line with what the field is finding. I'm sure Elena also is finding similar things that most people are using gamification to increase content engagement. What do you think, Elena? Yeah, I agree with Mandy, and I'd just like to say that one of the key elements of gamification is to make sure that you really know your audience and you understand them and what they want. So the way games work is by making the player enjoy the experience. You have to make your game fun. And in doing so, you have to understand your audience and what they want and what they need. So for example, in our game, before we built the game, we went to India and did focus groups on these kids so that we could really understand what motivated them. And they told us, listen, we want to use birth control. We would love to, but we don't know how it works. We don't know how bodies work. And so that really helped us because we're like, oh, we can motivate people to play our game by giving them the information they want and need in the game. And so in order to do gamification well, you have to make sure that you are giving the player something. It's not just about what you want. You have to really understand what the audience wants and how you can build that into the product that you're creating. Right, I would agree. I'd say you have to do a lot of customer discovery before you think about what elements of gamification you'd want to use. Great, thanks to you both. So now we'd like to ask our online viewers a question. I mean, what is your preferred point of engagement with your customers? Is it social media, your webpage, physical location, special events, something else? So please answer the poll that should be on the screen now and we'll read your answers off later in the program. Now let's take some questions from our online viewers. So Michelle Samuel asks, what industries are most likely to see gamification yielding significant results in customer engagement? I'll take that just because I work with health care. And health care is a really, really big field for this right now, especially. So for example, the Games for Health conferences, both in Europe and the US, we have a lot of government representatives coming and saying, listen, health care is an enormous growing expense, right? So we know that obesity and diabetes and lack of exercise, for example, are all conditions that can be changed by modifying human behavior. We don't need new drugs. We don't need necessarily cures for things. We have to successfully convince people to modify their own behavior in a way that's beneficial to their health. And in doing so, a lot of other things will also reap benefits from that. And this is a great example of the people's goals and the institutional goals are the same. Everybody wants to be healthier. And so that's why gamification can be a very powerful tool in this sector. Great, thanks, Elena. So let me ask another viewer asked, what are some of the first steps a startup can take to utilize gamification? Mandy, you want to take that? Sure, I'll take that. And so I think that sort of builds on what we were saying earlier. The first step is you must know your customer. You must know the audience. You must know who it is that you're trying to engage with and build this game for. And so in our experience, we are trying to target students. We also are looking at the late public, but primarily we're targeting students because we want to teach science effectively. And as Elena was saying, one of the key areas in which gamification has shown it's very successful is in the health care field and through behavior modification. And learning is the behavior modification, right? So if we can teach kids how to learn science more effectively, then they're able to do so. So the first step is know your customer. So do a lot of interviews. Top, top, top, top, top, top a lot. Not quite a nice moment. Go to the classrooms, talk to the students, talk to the teachers, but we not only want to show the students how to learn effectively, we also want to help the teachers how to get into the content in a more real way, in a way that will transfer to the learning process in a more effective way. So we have an assessment tool also that we use with the teachers built into our games. And it all came through conversations and going out and knowing your audience. So before you even show them your first product or picture first idea, ask three questions. What are your challenges? If you had a magic wand, what would you do? And then the third, who else in this space should I talk to? Before you even start to design a game, get out there and ask those questions of your potential customers. Great, thanks, Mandy. Looks like we have a question from Embassy Monrovia. How can a struggling business use gamification to grow? Well, I can, I mean, one of the things that I'd add on to what Mandy just said, I mean, I'm a game designer and I teach game design and development and I'm always surprised when people try to do gamification interventions without a game designer. So your gamification strategy is only as good as your actual game or the product that you're using to try to engage players. So if you're a struggling business, you really have to think about, can you find a designer to help you come up with an idea that's gonna accomplish the goal that you have? So the beginning little graphic talked about really stupid gamification like throwing snowballs at Santa. You know, games are actually kind of expensive to design. So it's not something that I would suggest that you just do again on a whim. It's something you really have to plan, right? What is the intractable problem or the challenge as Mandy said that you're trying to reach and how can you best use games to reach that challenge? It's not always the best solution but you definitely wanna start with someone who understands games and can help you come up with something to address the problem that you have. Yeah, we like to say learning through mechanics, right? Because you need, at the heart of it, the game must be fun, otherwise no one's gonna play it. You're gonna make a game that won't sell and it'll just sink your company even further. So the thing that was struggling will turn out to be dead unless you do a lot of planning. And at the heart of it is the mechanic of the game itself. So Eleanor's completely correct. You must have a very legit game designer on board you must understand how that game is gonna tie to your content and how it's going to feed customers to you and to your products. So throwing snowballs doesn't say anything other than how you can throw balls. If you're going to play baseball, that's great but if you're trying to teach kids about biodiversity, wouldn't work at all. And Mandy, let me just ask this next question to you as well. I mean, what do you see as the latest trends in gamification? Ooh, VR. The latest trend is definitely VR and how do we get immersive and how do we get to moving beyond the digital screen moving beyond the cardboard, which is all very nice. And by cardboard, I mean analog games that you play like Monopoly. Those are all very nice and each one of those pieces have a particular setting family or classroom. But the VR and what's coming with VR is really exciting. Google cardboard is in all of these classrooms and we're trying to develop content to meet that need. And what VR enables is for you to have empathy with the subject that's there. You get to have a one-on-one experience but in the classroom, you're still with the group. And so I think also for the work that Elena is doing how do we teach behavior modification which is the big area that we've seen gamification have impacts through VR. There are companies that use VR to teach for healing. So soldiers that came back from war that had, I think it was burn issues. They have VRs that have them in the North Pole and it shows that the pain that they're feeling substantially decreases. So there are lots of areas in which immersive technology like VR, it can come in and actually help facilitate learning and also facilitate science. So there are projects like Project Eve and our project discovery that Eve is running where you can help actually scientists decipher information by going in and looking at data and trying to figure out patterns. So there's a lot of very cool stuff coming and I think if we can conquer how we make VR number one cheap, number two accessible, then it will be definitely the next level of where gamification goes. Thanks, Mandy. And we have a question coming in on Twitter from Ronaldo Viejos. I've been working in sales for 13 years. How can gamification help us keep the pace with all the new tools and trends so that we can leverage and use them in our business? Well, once again, the problem with a question like that is that it really is about the business trying to sell more and I'm always cautious about that because it doesn't look like you're really doing anything that's gonna benefit your consumer. If all you're really focused on your sales, you really can't use gamification successfully because people are smart and they figure out right away if they're being manipulated. So what I would suggest to him is really think about your customers. So if you want to engage your customers, you have to give them something they want and they need and you have to talk to them and figure out what that is. So maybe they would like something, whatever product you're selling, if you can figure out from them, what could you give them that would help them use your product or make that product more compelling for them? That's a way to approach it. So gamification is really thinking about the player and the player's wants and needs and not exclusively about what you're trying to get out of them because otherwise it's manipulative. Right, thanks, Eleanor. So for those of you just joining us, you're watching the Just Tech Connect conversation on gamification, making your product engaging and fun. I'm joined by an amazing panel of experts, Eleanor Brotazzi and Mandy Holford. We're taking live questions from viewers. You can submit your questions through the chat space next to this video or on Twitter using hashtag Just Tech Connect. Ellen, let me just turn to a quick question for you. What resources are available to learn more about gamification? I mean, what resources do you like the most? Well, it's become such a huge industry now that there are all kinds of web resources. So there are websites, there are textbooks. I just got another email this morning about a conference in Finland called Gamathon where, I mean, more and more resources are available to people. I would just, I mean, as a person who's spent a long time in this field, I see a lot of mistakes that people are making and one of them is not really being clear about what you're trying to achieve with gamification. So a really good way to start thinking about it is to have narrow focused goals and then metrics that you contract to see whether or not the intervention is working. And so if you start there, I would look for any kind of gamification resource that doesn't suggest that you do some broad based general strategy where you're just making noise basically in the water and not really achieving whatever goal it is that you want. So as Mandy pointed out, the mechanics are everything. So whatever the player is doing as a result of the gamification should be related directly to what you're trying to achieve. So if you want players to exercise more then the mechanics should be about movement. If you want players to eat less then that's a challenging mechanic to come up with. So you really want to think about, how are you going to measure efficacy and then tailor your research into how to do it around your specific narrow goal. So Eleanor, just to quick aside, is there, is it reasonable to say that there are a lot of startups out there that just should not be considering the use of gamification? Yes, I mean, for me I see a lot of, so there's so much hype around this topic right now. Everyone is trying to do it. People are trying to do it without game designers which is a recipe for disaster and without really understanding that it has to be a shared goal. That you have to try to achieve something that's both good for the player and for the person who's organizing the gamification. Otherwise it's not gonna work because people understand that you're just trying to manipulate them into spending more and they leave and then that's a big take for you. Got it, thank you. And Mandy, I've got a question for you. Do you think gamification can be used on the marketing side of a business to aid in better customer understanding? Oh, absolutely, yeah. I think that the advantage that gamification gives to companies, it gives them this fun new way of branding that also enables them to take customers places they can't go. And so again, going back to VR where I think gamification is going, they're really cool companies, especially VR and education, like First Playable and Shell Games, which are taking students places that they've never been in a classroom. And that's what you want to do, I think with gamification. You wanna provide an experience that people won't normally have that will link to your product in a positive way but also reinforces what your product is trying to do. For example, in our space, it's education. So we're trying to really excite students about science. We're really trying to excite the late public that science is cool, science should be supported. And not only that, science is useful. So the science that happens in my lab can potentially lead to new drugs. And so we wanted to make games that showed how we can use science to help society, how biodiversity is involved with that because we're getting the tools for these new drugs from venomous snails and how venomous snails are cool. Who would think that a snail could eat a fish? Nobody, but they actually can. And why is that? That involves evolution, that involves taxonomy, that involves a lot about chemistry in terms of the venom. It involves biology and oncology. All of those subjects can be taught using a very smart game, again, in which we use the mechanics. And by mechanics, what we mean is how you play the game to reinforce the topics that you want to teach. And it's similar to the health field. And I think that's why the health field has really exploded with gamification because the games that have been successful, like the one Elena was describing in India, are ones in which you really incorporate a content with the mechanics that people are gonna do that will remember, oh, cool. I think snails are now the best things in the world. And it's because they're the assassins of the sea and I've played this game, I've learned about their venom. And so I think what we really need to do when you're getting ready as a company to market your business and you think you want to use gamification, Eleanor is correct, think about what is the content, the most important content you want to get out there and then have a brainstorming session with a group of designers, some specialists in the field and then interview some customers, first of all, to say, where is your pressure point? What do you need? How can we help you and how can we align our products to ways that are going to help further your issues? So with students, we found that the pressure point was how the content was being introduced to them. And for teachers, we found their pressure point to be how can they grasp the content in 45 minutes and convey it to their students? So we wanted to make games that were going to be short enough that they could be used in a classroom, but expansive enough that they excite your mind and create wonder about science and inquiry and discovery and make you want to go out there and jump into the ocean and dive. And so I think the best strategy for if you're a company and you're thinking about how to market using gamification is what is your best, brightest tool and then does this tool match with what the pressure points are that your customers are saying? If they don't, then gamification in this particular way might not be for you. If they do, grab a bunch of designers, have some barren pizza and go crazy and think about how should we make this into a fun game that people will actually come back to us and want to use. Well, Mandy, thanks. You've certainly been successful in increasing my interest in snails, so success. So thanks a lot. Coming up, we're gonna ask our experts about the most common mistakes they see startups make when attempting to incorporate gamification and how you can avoid them. But first let's go back to some questions from our online participants. So another question from Embassy Monrovia. What are the major challenges to using gamification in a low-tech or low-bandwidth environment? Great question. Who would like to take that? Great question. I can start. You start, Mandy. Oh, well, Alanya, I'll let you start because you did your project in India. So that was a huge issue for us, right? So we use a software called Unity to do game development and so Unity allows you to make a build that either goes to a phone or a tablet or a web browser-based system. So one thing, again, is really interview your customers and figure out what they've got. So when we were in India, we realized that basically none of the people in our target group had cell phones. So that meant that the only way we were gonna be able to get the game to them was to put the game on Android tablets and then actually get the Android tablets to the kits. And so that's a really huge challenge for us in phase two that we're addressing in a variety of different ways. But the thing that I work on really specifically is coming up with low-cost, low-budget games that actually are able to reach people in all different parts of the world. And you really can do it because even if people don't have their own cell phone, usually you can find a way where they can access some kind of media device that they can see your product on. So again, the critical thing is to conduct focus groups so you understand what kind of technology does your audience have and then make a build. Again, I know, Mandy, it's true that VR is a very great, high-potential product but it's insanely expensive right now and it's really expensive to build good content for VR. So realistically, most of us are not gonna be making VR content in the short term for projects like these, right? So you wanna find someone that understands how to build even a good 2D game as opposed to even 3D that really is able to communicate and get across what you want if budget is an issue. So you have to think about what technology does your audience have and how can you build a cheap enough game on a platform. So like we could make a beautiful 3D game but then the tablets that we have would not be able to run that game because they don't have enough memory for it. So very often you have to sort of reduce the quality of your product to match the technology and the budget that you have. But the thing about games is, you know, if you think about like Tetris or Angry Birds, even very low budget games can have a huge impact if you've got a good designer. I would just like to add that, yeah. I think if cost is an issue, then story becomes even more important. So you must have a very engaging narrative and if cost is an issue, then you don't have to do VR. You could also do, you know, analog games. So Monopoly and Scrabble are still one of the best selling games in the whole world. And so if we can able to design some of the games that we're doing digitally but incorporate them into analog, which is sort of how we started. We started with an analog game, Assassin's of the Sea and then we transferred it to digital simply for the fact that most classrooms can't afford to have a VR cardboard viewer that Google and the phone that comes with it. So we wanted to know how can we reach the classroom in a way that was affordable so that it could scale. And that meant using analog games. But it didn't mean dumbing down the content. You could still do very smart games, very smart learning games. You have to tie it to a convincing story. You must have a very smart mechanic and you have to be very focused and structured in how you design your game and still make it engaging using analog, which is like regular board games. And if your budget then scales up, you can go into 2D and 3D and digital and VR. The hope is that VR becomes something that's actually accessible because you want everyone to have these experiences. All right, thanks, Mandy. And we have another question from Ibra Roscoe. Are there best practices to use gamification to promote healthcare linkages with the healthcare providers other than hospitals? Well, there is a lot. I mean, again, we have whole conferences on these. So there's a Games for Health journal, Games for Health conferences and lots and lots of papers that have been written on best practices. But I would just go back to, again, making sure you've got a narrow focus. So most failure occurs when people try to achieve large scale, difficult to measure change. So one of the best games that we built that with actually really specific measurable content was we designed a game to convince kids to get a flu shot. So the kids played the game in the waiting room of the pediatric clinic and then we were able to assess who got the shot and who didn't immediately after seeing how they played the game. And we had wonderful results from that, right? So 80% of children ended up getting the flu shot that had played the game because they understood why it was important and we made them want to get the shot. And so that was a really big challenge, right? How do you make a kid want to get a shot? So that's an example of an intractable problem and then you can create a game around that that really makes them understand. So I'm not tricking them, right? I'm helping them understand why they want to do this thing that they don't want to do so that they actually do want to do it. And that's how gamification can be the most effective. So there are lots of resources out there and I encourage you to go look at them. But the other thing that we haven't really talked about so we've talked about mechanics which are very important in game design, you also want to make sure you've got feedback. So as the player plays, you need to give them feedback. And in healthcare, that feedback is, how am I doing, right? So what progress am I making towards my goal? And that's what badges and scores and ringing bells and all of those things are ways to give the player feedback so they know whether or not they are successfully completing progress towards their ultimate goal. So those are all things you want to make sure you've included in your game. Great, thanks, Elena. Well, we've got a question from another viewer. For some people it seems that gamification requires advanced technical skills and technologies. Is there a way startups can use simple, easy to use gamification strategies? I think for sure you can use simple strategies. Just remember that at the heart of gamification is the word game. And the first game was a game was like pebbles. Pebbles on the floor in the sand. And so it doesn't require a lot of technology. It does require that you have, as we've been trying to say throughout, a clear focus as to what it is you're trying to gamify and how you're going to do so. By working closely with the game designer, I like to work very closely with storytellers because I think the narrative is what's part of the engagement of a game. When we play Monopoly, we all want to win the money or we all want to win the property. So there must be something that grabs the player right away, right? Because at the heart of it, it has to be a game. And so if you're in a company and you don't know how to code and you don't know unity and you don't know clever and you don't know all of those things, the first thing you should be doing is figuring out why do we want to use gamification? What is the pressure point that we're hoping to address in our customers that will make gamification the tool we should be using? And then once you figure that out, you can then go and meet someone who knows clever or unity. Invite a game designer to come and talk to you guys and say, here's what we found our customers are interested in. We don't have a lot of money. We don't have a lot of resources. But we would like to figure out is this a space we can play? Is there a game that we can design that's of this budget using whatever means we have that we can present to our customers? So I think even when technology isn't the barrier, I think the barrier is creativity and the barrier is imagination. So start always first with what is the pressure point? What's the story that we can tell people that will grab them? And then how do we design that in a way that's cost-effective within our budget? And if it means collaborating and paying a game designer, then that's what you have to do to get to the technology, to overcome the technology barrier. Let me just add that. Yeah, I teach game design at Quinnipiac University and I have many colleagues that teach game design all around the world, right? And so this is a new program that is really growing all over the world and all of our kids need real projects to work on. So if you have a company and you don't have a game designer and you don't have a budget for a game designer, one thing you can do is contact a university that's got a game design program because almost all of us have students that have great skills, but they don't necessarily have good ideas. And so if we can pair them with someone that's got a real world problem, it's good for both parties. So more and more, we've got these kids coming out, they all need internships, they all want projects to work on. So I would encourage you to do some research around where you are and see if you can find a game design program and contact those people because they probably are willing to help. So there are lots of ways to get game designers involved. Absolutely true, that's how we made our first game. Yeah, that's terrific advice and very practical, hopefully for all of the entrepreneurs watching today. Let me ask another question from one of our viewers. Are there downsides to using gamification to support or promote your product? Ellen, do you wanna start? Well, the downside is that you put a lot of money and effort into something that doesn't work. And again, this is not an uncommon practice and it's because people don't think about the audience. So like when we first went and talked to the doctors about the flu game, the flu shot game, the doctors were like, well, we could have the flu vaccine and kids could shoot it out of the sky. It would be a really fun shooting game. And I was like, well, we could do that. That would be really easy to make, right? The problem is that that's not gonna convince kids to get a flu vaccine because there's absolutely no relationship between shooting the flu vaccine out of the sky and actually getting a flu shot. And so this again, it's just related to, yeah, so what we ended up doing is making a school that's just full of germs. There is like green snot all over the place and everyone sneezes. And when they sneeze, green snot is flying around the school. And so the kid realizes, wow, there are really a lot of germs around. And my body, if I wanna be close to people and get a cookie from my friend Lucy, I need a vaccine to prevent myself from catching the flu. And so again, it's a method of going where your audience is and helping them understand how they can solve their own problems. And many people who try to come up with gamification strategies really don't think about it that way. They say, oh, we'll just come up with a simple game and plug our content into it. And it almost never works that way. Thanks, Ellen. And I appreciate you showing us the wonderful snot graphics. Those were fascinating. So there's another question. Do any of the companies, this is a question actually to me. So do any of the companies that your incubator use elements of gamification? And what are some of the lessons that they've learned from using games in their products or businesses? As a social enterprise incubator, which focuses a lot on solving 21st century problems, a lot of our companies are technically oriented and use online platforms to buy, to sell their product or service, absolutely. But I can tell you that of the 55 companies that we have in our portfolio, there are only a few that I've seen using pure kind of gamification technologies. Most of the companies that we're incubating are looking for very interesting ways to visualize data and to kind of provide, make their product or service appealing to customers. But I can honestly say that there are very few that have actually used actual gamification as it's been defined at least on this program. But that's something that I'll definitely take a look at. So the short answer to the question is no, not really, which I think falls along the lines of what Ellen and Mandy are both saying is that gamification strategies for startups are not ubiquitous. It is not in order to be competitive. You do not necessarily need to deploy gamification technologies into your successful startup. So thank you for that question to me. So Ellen, I wanted to ask you a question, and this is something that you've alluded to a little bit in the previous conversation. I mean, what are the most common mistakes startups make when attempting to incorporate gamification and how can they avoid these missteps? Like you said, it can be very costly and it may not necessarily be appropriate for these startups, so we wanna make sure that they can avoid these mistakes. What do you think? Well, I tend to tell people, think of what's the intractable problem, right? What's the thing that's really hard to solve? Because if it's an easy problem or you can address it using traditional academic or marketing or advertising strategies, then do that, right? Because that's cheaper and it already works and you know how that functions. But if you've got a really difficult problem like birth control in India, for example, is a problem that we've tried to solve in a lot of different ways and haven't been able to solve it or convincing kids to get a flu vaccine or teaching kids science in school, right? As Mandy is doing. If you've got a really difficult problem, then gamification can be a way to address that problem. So in your own company, right? You shouldn't just say, okay, we're gonna use a game to sell more of our product because that's probably not gonna work. It's too expensive to build a game that would actually do that effectively. But maybe if your company has a specific niche problem or a specific challenge that you've tried other methods to address and have not been able to do, that's where you might wanna think about gamification as a place where maybe I can use this to help my customer base or my audience understand how they can address this issue differently. And again, we're talking about changing user behavior based on an understanding of an environmental challenge. So again, it can be very effective, but you have to understand the scenarios in which it can be useful. Great, Mandy, any mistakes that you've seen and any advice on how to avoid them? Yeah, I think following along what Elaine said, the biggest mistake is that everyone thinks they have to do it, right? And so it's like, oh, because it's the new cool thing, we must get out there, we must put a game. And that's how you end up with the shooting snowmans at a random target or drinking Pepsi to make a fighter jet because everyone's thinking I need to make something. So I would say again, the biggest mistake is number one, investing too early and starting to design a game without figuring out what's the goal of this game. If your goal is to try to sell more ugly Christmas sweaters or your goal is to, as in the term, as what Elaine is doing, really change behavior and modification, then what is it that people are trying to do because now you're trying to change a habit? And so playing games as a way of changing habits, you must know what it is that you're going to build into the game that will change that habit. The green snot all over the school, I love that. I think it's a very great easy narrative that kids are appropriate to and they can get. In our games, we are always thinking, what is going to be attractive to the age group that we're targeting? Because we find that in middle school is when a lot of girls especially fall out of science. So how can we make our game something that they are going to attract to? And so the biggest, I think, mistake that people make is just watching out and trying to make a game without thinking who's the target and what's the audience and how does it link to my product that I'm selling or to the behavior that I'm trying to reinforce. All right, thanks, Mandy. And we've got a question from the US Embassy in Quito, Ecuador. Do you think that you could use analog gaming tools internally? For example, creating gaming patterns and rewards for increasing a sales team result? Oh, yeah. I think they've done these successfully internally in certain companies where you try to motivate people to perform well and you try to motivate people to get excited about what the company's doing. That doesn't require anything high tech or anything like that, something as free lunch and how many activities you do. You get a punch on your card and you get 10 of these. You can go and get free lunch somewhere. So I think using it internally in the company doesn't require perhaps as much as if you're trying to use it as a way of branding the company. But perhaps Eleanor can say a little bit more. I think, well, I mean, it's great to have someone actually give us an example of what they'd like, how they would like to use gamification, because it's easier to sort of grab on to that. But that's a great example of if your sales team in your company, if you want to motivate them, then you have to figure out what do they need to become better at selling your product. You have to ask them, listen, what can we give you that would help you become a better sales person? What kind of tool do you need that would better help you sell this particular product? And then you want to build the game around that. So if the person is having a hard time talking to other people, or if maybe they think their product is too expensive, and they need to be able to discount that product in some way, you the institution probably don't know exactly what they need. And that's one reason why they're not motivated. So you can use the gamification process as a method of really understanding the basis for the problem that you're trying to address. So if you want to come up with a board game that helps the sales team be successful, a big part of the design of that game would be understanding what your team needs to be successful and whether or not you as a company are actually providing them with those tools. So that's why the actual process of developing the game and the gamification strategy can be the most useful thing that you do internally to use games successfully. Because you can only build a good game if you really understand all the parameters. And so I think some companies can use gamification itself and building an analog game or a digital game as a means of understanding how to, again, address this problem that is present for them. Thanks, Elana. We've got another question from Zankana. How can you take your game from useful to viral? How do you take that next step? Mandy, you want to start with that? That's the million dollar question. I don't think we know that. I don't think we know what makes something viral. But we do know that if you have the components of a solid narrative, like a really engaging story, if you've coupled it very closely with the need that is out there, that is identified by your customer base, if you've also taken the time to address if it will link to the format, in the tech format, is it going to be analog? Is it going to be 2D, 3D, virtual? And does it have a nice hook, right? So again, coming back to the story, I think one of the reasons things go viral is because they sort of hit us in an innate way in the gut. And so that only comes from having very engaging storylines, I think, and also very interesting narratives. But beyond that, I don't think anyone has the magic ball for what makes something viral. But it should be what we're aiming for, especially if you're a company wanting to get out and get your product sold, or if you're trying to modify behavior, like we're doing in the classroom or Ellen is doing in the health field. Right. So make sure you're building that into your game, though. So for example, we did a game with the National Institute of Health of Mexico. Again, this was a safe sex game, and we integrated the game with an online gamification leaderboard so that people posted their results. So as people succeeded in the game, and they were able to, again, this is the feedback mechanism, they were able to see how well they were doing, and other people were able to see how well they were doing, which is very motivational. So if you have really effective feedback loops, and then you encourage people to share their results on social media. Also, if people really like a game, the first thing they wanna do is share it with their friends. So if you want your game to go viral, the trick is to have a really good game and then incorporate social media as part of the publishing process for that game. You have to be careful with that because many of us are annoyed when on Facebook, when someone says, oh, please go buy my grain for me in Farmville or do the thing for me in this game that you're not involved with, and that's just annoying. So again, you have to tailor the online social media aspect of gamification in such a way that it's productive and fun, but it's not annoying, and people see it as just manipulative. But understanding how to make something that has a great story, as Mandy points out, and also makes people want to share it. So you can't make something viral. All you can do is make something so good that your players will wanna share their accomplishments with other people. Right, we've got another question from Embassy Monrovia. How can gamification be used as a motivating factor for people to learn more about a product? Well, you have to make them curious, right? So it's again, like one of the ways that we use in games when you're designing a game, you create a level in the game. And then there are all kinds of tricks inside of games. You've got doors in the distance, you've got things that look like you should open them, you've got loot drops. So you wanna design the gamification experience so that it encourages exploration and gives people rewards for exploring. So in a game, for example, you can make it impossible to go to the next level unless I have acquired a certain amount of knowledge. And that's a classic trope inside of games. So if you want people to get more knowledge about your product, then you can make a game where you have to have that knowledge in order to proceed in the game. That's just an idea. We would have to know exactly what your product is to be more specific about that. Right, thanks, Alana. So let's take a quick pause. I'd like to share the results of our live poll question. What is your preferred point of engagement with your customers? So here are your top three responses combined from our English and Spanish polls. Social media, 62%, physical location, 17%, other 14% and webpage, 8%. So Mandy and Alana, what is a simple way gamification strategy can be employed across some of these platforms? Not necessarily relegated to a single one. So I think Alana started that conversation in answering the last question a little bit. You have to build it into your game that it's a feedback or sort of that the user, when they're winning, they have a way of reporting back what they're doing, what they're finding, if they're liking it, they wanna share it. And again, this poll result sort of is in line with what's happening now in the world. Everyone is using social media. Most companies, you have to have Snapchat or Facebook or Instagram or Twitter account to be able to reach out to your customers for them to reach back to you and let them get feedback to know what's working, what's not working. And I think one of the ways of strategy for making sure that you engage across all of these platforms is just by making sure you're accessible. And that starts with having a really nice website usually that people can go to. They feel that they can contact you either via email or whichever is their preferred method. And so you have to have, as a new company starting out, you must have, I think, a very nice, welcoming website that is sort of your foundation from which you're gonna build your social media contacts and make this sort of engagement to the world and to your customers. The other thing I would say is to actually foster productive competition, right? So a lot of games are about what is my top score? How can I share my top score with others? So anyone who plays an online game is very motivated by leaderboards, right? So who's on the top of the leaderboard is my team doing well? So if there's any way you can take your client base and have them form into teams so that they can collaborate with other people and then have those teams compete against other things, then that's a way of creating a social media presence because people are constantly logging in to see how are my other teammates doing? How are we doing relative to other teams? And that can be extremely motivational in terms of behavior change. So for example, companies that have successfully done fitness things, right? So they've challenged their employees to take a certain number of steps. Like one time I called my daughter and I said, what are you doing? And she said, I'm walking around the building. I said, why are you walking around the building? And she said, well, my team is very close to being the most active team, right? In this hospital's gamification challenge, and if I do six more laps around the hospital, we're gonna win. And I'm like, okay, I guess that's working, right? Because on some level it seemed silly, but it really did motivate her to go out and walk around the hospital because she wanted her team to be successful in the hospital fitness challenge. So these things can actually work if you don't make them idiotic, to motivate people because we are very motivated to do better than the last time or to do better than another group of people. And social media can be a very effective way of publicizing those feedback loops and letting people gloat about their successes, for example, is very motivational. So creating a little bit of competition, friendly competition amongst your customers can be a good thing for your startup. We have time for one more question from our viewing audience. So this will be our final online question, again, from Embassy Monrovia. Can you share some examples of analog gamification to change a behavior? Analog, so that's sort of how we start. I can start there. Analog to change behavior, again, in the education space where we are, the behavior we're trying to change is how do you approach science? Most people are afraid of math, they're afraid of chemistry, they're afraid of biology. In our first game, we designed exactly the way that Elena was describing. We paired up with NYU game designers and NYU has a, here in New York, New York University has a game department or a concentration where you have all of these interns who are learning how to make games. And we were trying to figure out how do we teach science content in a way that would be fun and the way that students would want to react and really be accessible in the classroom. And this was tied to the fact that it budgets again. So if we want to build something that could be scalable, we have to make it analog. And card games are actually a lot of fun because not only will you get to collect the cards, you can look at them, you can share them with others. And so it became this thing of analog actually was the best way of going into the classroom, of prototyping, of testing, of getting engagement back and forth, the feedback with your customers. And so a lot of people kind of pool analog right now because they're always thinking about virtual or the big digital or 3D. But analog is one of the best ways of actually tying down the story, tying down game mechanic, making sure it works and going out with your customer to have one-on-one interaction. It also allows you to do face-to-face interactions, right? So that you can have a conversation with someone so that you can actually play the game with someone. It brings out your competitive spirit, it brings out the whole fun of the game and somebody wants to win. And you get that instant feedback, oh, I won and I have all the cards or I don't have all the cards, whatever the end of the story is. Right now, our next game, Bion Builder, is totally analog because we're trying to go younger. We're going into elementary schools. And with that game, it's basically building a food web of these extreme creatures. Who eats the shark? Who eats the squid? Who eats the plant at the bottom of the ocean? And so the best way is by building this sort of food web, literally using cards to stack one on top of the other, the kids are learning the science about how species are connected, how animals are connected, the ecology and biodiversity of what's happening in our oceans, in our deserts and in our plains. And so I'm a big proponent of analog, even though I think VR is where we're going and where it's going to be. I certainly hope that we maintain analog as a form of gamification because it really is a touchpoint for interactions, both for families and classrooms and it's a way to connect on a personal level. Thanks, Maddie. Yeah, add to that that cards are fantastic. I mean, Pokemon, for example, even is a huge phenomenon still today, but also think about figurines. I mean, if you just think about movies, right? Connecting our favorite characters, our favorite stories, people really care about having little analog objects that remind them of what's going on in other worlds. So the analog is very, very important and will continue to be, I think. Thanks, Alyssa. I am afraid we're almost out of time, but before we conclude, I wanted to ask each of our panelists because of the very wide diversity of questions that we've had today. What is the most important takeaway that you think we've discussed for our viewers? I'm just gonna reiterate what I said before is really to focus on narrow-focused goals with metrics, outcomes that you can measure so that you can see if you've succeeded. So a really big issue is people not being able to assess whether or not their thing has actually been successful because you can't replicate if you don't know what it is that you did that was a good thing. So narrow-focused, good metrics and pay attention to your audience. Make sure you're giving them something they want and need as much as you're getting what you want and need. And you, Maddie? I would say that in addition to the focus and paying attention to your audience, make sure that what you're making is compelling. So make sure that the story and the narrative and is there and that you keep it a game. The whole point of a game is that it's fun. Someone wins and someone loses. So you must keep the competition element, keep the fun element, have a convincing story, target it completely to what your customer is looking for and target it completely to what it is that you're trying to convey. If it's behavior modification, if it's learning in the classroom, make sure that those are the things through the design of the game as they play the game, those things are coming through and not it be a side product, but through learning through mechanics, as we like to say, make sure it's built into the game what it is you're trying to achieve. Right, and I just want to say one thing that struck me about today's conversation is that a lot of the advice that Elena and Mandy gave is not exclusive to gamification. This kind of advice, I think, as far as how to engage a customer, how to understand your market, how to realize what kind of technology you should be using, I think is relevant for any kind of startup, regardless of their interest in using gamification. So I think we reached a very broad audience today. But first, before we finish, I just want to thank both Elena and Mandy for joining us today. I thought you guys were fantastic. I want to offer a special thanks to everyone viewing online, particularly to the host of the viewing groups around the globe for mobilizing. We're entrepreneurial communities. We had audiences at the U.S. Embassy Quito, Ecuador, at Mate Enterprises, UTEC Ventures in Lima, Peru, the Youth Network for Reform at the U.S. Embassy in Liberia, Innovation Village Kampala in Uganda, Impact Hub Carrera in Zimbabwe, Berri Tech, Beirut in Lebanon, Impact 9 Pakistan, Impact Hub Bucharest, Romania, to name a few. We'd also like to give a shout out to Youth Network for Reform at the U.S. Embassy in Liberia, the winner of the prize for the most tweets about this discussion today. Great work and an example of gamification in action. So thank you, Youth Network for Reform at the U.S. Embassy in Liberia. So please, even though we're ending, please continue to send in questions in the chat and on Twitter at hashtag just tech connect. As our panelists will stick around for a few more minutes to answer those questions. I know I did, but I hope you enjoyed our discussion today and thanks again for joining us. Goodbye and have a great day.