 Boris Johnson's announcement on Sunday about an easing of the lockdown has been unravelling ever since. Many of the changes announced were made in haste with little consultation with those people who they would directly affect. One of those affected groups is the teaching profession and obviously also parents. So, Boris Johnson announced schools should aim to reopen for some year groups on the 1st of June at the earliest, but that's what they're supposed to be aiming for. The teaching unions have opposed the move. They've set five tests which they say must be met before they'll agree to go back to work. They include regular tests for staff and pupils. The overall infections in the country are lower than they currently are. Their proper social distancing plan is in place. They were also thoroughly pissed off that this announcement was made without any consultation with them. There were so many people who found out something new about their industry which they hadn't been told about on that ridiculous speech to the country at 7 p.m. last Sunday, but in any case Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has since accused the National Education Union and actually all the education trade unions of scaremongering, so the government are going to war now with the education unions, and the Daily Mail this morning came out with this highly inflammatory front page. So the headline, magnificent staff across the nation are desperate to help millions of children get back to the classroom, but militant unions are standing in their way. To them, the mail implores, let our teachers be heroes. We can get up a bit of the comments as well. This is Daily Mail comment. Very important opinion about how our country should work. The great constellation of this COVID crisis has been Britain's bonding together in a spirit of compassion and generosity. So what a crashing disappointment that the teaching unions refused to join the common cause instead of playing, instead playing petty politics. They are obviously happy to gamble with children's futures, but the mail firmly believes most teachers are better than that. The profession's silent majority know where their duty lies. We urge them to find their voice. So to discuss this story, I'm delighted to be joined by James McCash, a Labour councillor in Lambeth and a primary school teacher. How are you doing, James? Yeah, I'm OK, thanks. Are you disappointed that the union has stood in the way of you becoming a national hero on the front line of our education system? I am disappointed. I feel like I've always felt I was too too capes. So that's a real letdown for me. But no, I mean, the trade unions, the National Education Union, the other trade unions are standing up for our rights. They're standing up for the rights of children to stay safe. And frankly, they're doing absolutely the right thing. And what are in sort of practical terms, what is your job like at the moment? Are you still doing, you know, educational stuff online? Or can you talk to me about how how the experience of being a teacher in lockdown is at the moment? Yeah, sure. So I mean, I think the there's sort of myth going around that we teach they're doing literally nothing at the moment. And that couldn't be further from the truth. So it varies by different schools. And what I'm doing in my school is we are preparing daily work for the children to do. So a little bit of maths, a little bit of English. We've got an ongoing project for them to be getting on with where they're sort of I teach year three, and they're working on producing a little book, sort of a sketchbook and notebook out out birds, they're doing some research about birds. And then there's a whole school project on growing tomatoes. And that's something obviously the whole family can get involved in and schools been providing those families with those tomato plants. So there is quite an engaging curriculum. At the same time, obviously, some students are going into school, schools, we've been talking about schools reopening, of course, schools have been open the entire time. In fact, schools have been open over the holidays as well. It's just very small numbers of children going in the children who are most vulnerable, the children who are whose parents are key workers, but they're going in and that of course means that teachers are going in as well to to teach them and to look after them. And then finally, there's a welfare element that's happening as well. So me and my colleagues have been splitting up the list of children and parents and we've been ringing up their homes to check that they've got hold of the free school meal vouchers that they should have been given to check that they're able to access the online learning we're providing to ask if they need anything sent to their houses and generally to see if just if they're okay. So we're keeping keeping very busy with all the work we're doing in schools. Then of course, there's the the union work, which I'm sure we're going to get on to in a moment. So what is it? Yeah, so in terms of the NEU, but also you as a as a professional, what is it that you would like to see in place that would make you confident about going back to work and having a full classroom or a semi full classroom? Is it just the idea that June is way too early? Let's wait till September? Or is it that the government haven't put in place sufficient preparations or guidance or capacities, for example, to test people? You know, what what could the government do that would make you feel comfortable and secure going back to school, say before the summer holiday, say before August? Yeah, sure. So I mean, I guess I'm a teacher. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a virologist. I'm not an epidemiologist. So I'm going to have to work base what I'm doing on the evidence that's around and and who's advocating for different positions. At the moment, the people who are saying that it is safe to go back to schools on June the 1st are our right wing Tory government, the Daily Mail, and angry people on Twitter. Whereas the people saying that it's not safe to go back to school at the moment is my trade union, the National Education Union, the other major teaching union, the NSUWT, the Head Teachers Trade Union, the NAHT, and now the organization that represents the medical profession, the BMA. So I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not able to make this decision for myself. But I certainly know how I'm going to trust on that one. There was one element of this, obviously, I mean, at Navarro Media, we're very sympathetic to this idea that you trust the BMA and the NAU over Boris Johnson's government. But there was one thing I thought was potentially a bit of an own goal, which was the NAU using this phrase that they're advising teachers not to engage in planning to prepare to go back to school, because that that's meant that that's what's plastered on on the headlines all weeks. And it does it can make it seem a bit like obstructionism, you know, don't even engage with it. I don't know if you feel like there was some context missed in sort of how that was reported, or if that was a bit of a, you know, a mistake. I mean, the fact, the fact is that the government is asking schools to prepare to go back for a plan that just doesn't add up. There is no PPE. There is inadequate testing. They government have themselves admitted that it is simply impossible to have social distancing in a primary school. I don't know if you know many five year olds, but you can't just tell them to stay two meters away from each other. It just doesn't work. I mean, the government's plans are outrageous. They've said that if a child seems to have symptoms, then do you know what you should do with them, Michael? You should put them in a room on their own and close the door. That's what you're supposed to do. And let's let's not forget that you mentioned at the beginning that a number of year groups been chosen to go back. It's the youngest children who've been chosen to go back. You put a five year old in a room on their own, tell them that no one can come in until they're picked up to go home. What are they going to think? It's going to be a traumatic experience for them. So we have been engaging. The national unions have been engaging. There's been regular meetings with the government, with the cabinet. The conversations have been ongoing about how to make it safe for schools to return. When the announcement came out, there had been discussions about year six returning, which is one of those three year groups, but the five and six year olds in reception and year one, that had never been discussed. That came out absolutely out of nowhere. And the reason it came out of nowhere is because it has nothing to do with children's welfare. There may be a case for saying that we should be trying to get year sixes back relatively soon. Year six is of course the oldest age in primary school and they're about to make that transition to secondary school. Maybe they need a bit of preparation for that, support with that quite big transition. What is the reason why you would have a load of five year olds running around the school? It's just like it's not possible to maintain social distancing for them. And it is really, really damaging. Even trying to get a five year old to social distance, I think, could be really damaging for their emotional and their social development. Generally, they can't like hug their friends, can't play games with their pals. It was that horrible photo I was going around on Twitter yesterday of a school in France where they drawn chalk squares in the playground. The children were allowed to run around in their own little sort of chalk prison. When they're during this phase of having their play, it's just absolutely not right. The government's plan is back to front. If you think you're going to do something that's risky, say you think you're going to go skydiving soon. The first thing you do is you make sure you've got a parachute. You don't say, I'm going skydiving tomorrow. It doesn't matter. I'll try and get a parachute if I can. If I can't, never mind. I've set the date. That's not what you do. You do it the other way around. You make sure things are safe and then you do it. You don't set a date first. I'm going to bring Ash in in one moment for a question. Final question from me is what happens next? If the unions and the teachers are saying we're not going back, the government say schools are opening on the 1st of June. What happens in this weird standoff? How does it work? Could the teachers actually go on strike or is it just a case of if people don't comply, then the policy doesn't happen? What will happen on the 1st of June? Yeah, it's a good question. We are in uncharted territory, absolutely. As you know, the government, successive governments have made it very, very difficult to go on strike. So it simply wouldn't be possible for the NEU to take industrial action, to take strike action for June the 1st. I'm not saying, when I say it's not possible, I'm not saying it's too hard to win the ballot or anything like that. It simply isn't possible with the time frames there. It's just it would be against the law to do that. So there won't be any strike action for June the 1st. Instead, we're relying on that section 44 guidance, which is to advise our members that if you do not think it is safe to go into work, then do not go into work and contact us about it. I think the important thing to remember here, though, is that, you know, in that normal kind of industrial relationship, the employer and the employer are diametrically opposed. In this situation, it's a little bit more complicated because of the nature of how schools work. Headteachers are not going to reopen. They're not sort of looking at their profit margins thinking, God, we need to get those five year olds back in quick. That's not happening at all. A lot of head teachers really don't want to open either. And if they have their teaching staff coming to them saying, look, we're not prepared to come in on those on a basis, I think a lot of headteachers are going to be quite relieved. Before we go on to the next story, I do just want to get up this letter from the BMA because I do think this is really like basically ended the argument. I think there was a there was an attempt by the Daily Mail by Gavin Williamson to play divide and rule between teachers and doctors. But I think this letter from the British Medical Association, that's over now. So let's just get up. Let's get up that now and I'll read out some of it. Second half of the first paragraph, the BMA has noted the launch of your campaign and the publication of your five tests and we stand in full support of you. The BMA's Public Health Medicine Committee has considered the evidence available on reopening schools and has found it to be thus far conflicting, which is perhaps unsurprising given the relatively small amount of research available on the uncharted territory we find ourselves in. A paper from New South Wales found very little transmission associated with schools and suggested that children were very much less susceptible to serious illness but were more likely to have a symptomatic infection. Conversely, a more recent paper from Berlin looking at viral loads in children suggests they are just as likely to be infected as adults and maybe just as infectious. We therefore need to know more about the infectivity of children. In light of these studies, however, the view of the members of the PHMH is completely aligned with the NAU, the National Education Union, until we have got case numbers much lower. We should not consider reopening schools. The NAU is absolutely right to urge caution to prioritise testing and to protect the vulnerable. We cannot risk a second spike or take actions which would increase the spread of this virus, particularly as we see sustained rates of infection across the UK. In response to the government's announcement this week on easing lockdown restrictions, I said that I believe their plan was too fast, too confusing and too risky. They would do well to heed your five tests before taking any further premature action. So take that, Gavin Williamson. When you say that the teachers are scare mongering because they don't want to go back to work, maybe talk to the people who actually know their shit. The doctors, the doctors are saying the teachers are absolutely right. You're going too fast, too far and without any kind of plan, nonsense. And I think the teachers are going to win this one.