 Hello, welcome to Ressia, the Research Seminar in Islamic Art. I'm glad to see quite a few of you today for the first seminar of the year. Ressia is still on Zoom this year to reach a wider audience, and the seminars will be recorded, are recorded, and then uploaded on the dedicated Ressia YouTube channel in due course. Today I'm happy to welcome Dr. Haris Dervishevich, who will be speaking to us from Sarajevo. Haris is an assistant professor of Islamic Art History at the University of Sarajevo, and he teaches at both the University of Sarajevo and the University of Mostar. He's currently involved in two very interesting projects. One is called Under the Sky of Cheerful Faith, Islam in Europe in the Bosnian experience. And the other one is Islamic Architecture and Orientalizing Style in Habsburg, Bosnia. Haris is a co-editor of the Proceedings of the International Symposium on Islamic Art in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and co-author of the book 40 Bosnian and Herzegovina Mushafs. He's a member of the tutorial board of several journals, and he has published extensively on Islamic art and architecture of the region. He's a member of the International Council on Monuments and Sites, ICOMOS, and the International Council on Museums, ICOM. And of the Council of the Congress of Bosniak Intellectuals, and a member of the Parent Committee of the Bosniak Association for Culture. And Haris brings expertise on a region that has been for too long considered peripheral. And I'm very happy to welcome him today at Rezia, because Rezia has always been concerned with looking beyond what he's considered the mainstream. The seminar is on what was it to be a calligrapher in 18th century Sarajevo. And you can write your questions in the chat, and I will read them out at the end of the seminar. Thank you Haris for joining us. Over to you. Thank you very much for this guide introduction. Hello everyone. I would say that I'm very honored to start these research seminars in Islamic art. And as you said, this, my topic, the subject was on the side for a long time in the surveys of Islamic art. And as you heard the title of my paper, or better to say research, is what was it to be a calligrapher in 18th century Sarajevo. Now I will try to start my presentation. What was it to be a calligrapher in 18th century Sarajevo? The relationship between the Bosnian, the Ottoman capital could be seen through the lens of geographical or different social economic progress. Or better to say, with center periphery theory, where Bosnia followed the Istanbul in terms of lifestyle culture and art. Center periphery theory questions the relationship between the center of production peripheral areas. The central periphery model helps to deconstruct the common approach to art history. That is one of the main parts of my research. Istanbul centrism is visible in the Ottoman art history studies. The works on the Finns or the Empire are analyzed almost always from the perspective of the capital. The beginnings of Islamic calligraphy in Bosnia. We can trace them from the middle of the 15th century. When the Ottomans conquered the kingdom of Bosnia in the 16th, in the 1463. The services were the first to write and copy the Islamic manuscripts. The one of the oldest manuscripts in Arabic is the work of Sufi content copied by Hajji Muhammad bin Sefer Hisari on the 5th June 1463. That is just six days after the last Bosnian King Stepa Tomasi which was executed. The scribe's name Sefer Hisari that I mentioned before implies he or his father is from Sefer Hisari in Turkey, not in Bosnia. No doubt that from the middle of the 15th century the Arabic script was present in the newly conquered Bosnia Kingdom. In the beginning the Islamic books were brought. At the same time the modest number of documents and manuscripts were written. The examples are Issa Bay and Ayaz Bay, Wakuf Nama, dating in the middle of the 15th century. Under the circumstances that encouraged the development of the art, the first names of local people dedicated to Islamic calligraphy appeared. The calligraphy in Bosnia should be analyzed within the Ottoman calligraphy schools from which it rose and to which it was connected. The masters of Ottoman calligraphy taught some of the Bosnian calligraphers. When we talk about calligraphy styles or scripts, the mostly the Bosnian calligraphers mostly use Nes, Sulus, Muhakkak, Tali and Nes Tali. Most Islamic heritage surveys focus on architecture but we don't have a single monograph of any Bosnian calligrapher from any century. Thanks to the texts and papers dedicated to Bosnian calligraphy, we have brief biographies of some of them. The manuscripts are the primary source of studies of calligraphy. Sadev has valuable collections of Islamic manuscripts known beyond the country borders. The most significant is the Gazi Husserbeg Library, established in the 1431. Also, Bosnia Institute, Oriental Institute, Historical Archive of Sadev and National University Library of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They all have very valuable collections of Islamic manuscripts. Each of the mentioned institutions published catalogs with precious information for researchers. Also, I have to add here, the Private Museum Sheikh Hafiz Musa Jasm Hajime Ilic in central Bosnia. It is the most important private collection of calligraphy and Hebrew art with the works of Mehmed Esari Esari Effendi, Mustafa Izet Effendi, Sami Effendi, Omer Vasfi Effendi, Kemal Batanay, Ali Alparslan, Hasan Celebi and others. Sadebeg Basagic was Viennese student and prominent intellectual who wrote about the cultural history of Bosnia in the lexicon. Famous crowds Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Turkish Empire published in the 1931. In this lexicon, he mentioned seven Bosnian calligraphers. This lexicon is on the path of that tradition in the beginning of the 19th century that could be compared to today like who is who. Another researcher and also artist that wrote about calligraphy in Bosnia was Djoko Mazalic, artist. And as I said, historical, he did a similar project publishing the lexicon of artists in 1967. Between medieval scribes, it is interesting that he made distinction between medieval scribes and Muslim calligraphers stating that calligraphers for him cultivated only the calligraphy of the Oriental script. This lexicon contains the names of 81 Islamic calligraphy. Manu Izinovch, a longtime employee of the Office for Protection of Cultural Monuments, is the author of the three volume book, Islamic Epigraphy in Bosnia. At the end of each volume, Izinovch added a list of calligraphers. Izinovch imposed his work as one of the fundamental sources for researching Islamic epigraphy and calligraphy. And here is the photograph of Smile Balic, employee at the Austrian National Library, distinguished researcher of Islamic history and culture, mostly focusing on Islamic heritage in Bosnia. Balic gave the most comprehensive and systematic list of calligraphers in the book, Culture of Bosniaks. The list is a translation of his German text, calligraphy and miniatur malerai from his study Das Ubenkante Bosnian, Europas Bürger zur islamischen Welt. But it would be unthinkable to understand the heritage of Islamic manuscripts in Bosnia without mentioning Mohamed Dralovic. And his work, Bosnia and Slovenian, copies of works in Arabic texts, which is all his PhD thesis. The research is divided in two volumes. History of libraries in Bosnia is in the first volume, and the second volume is a catalogue of Islamic manuscripts inscribed by Bosnia. In the last decades, there are several books dedicated to Islamic calligraphy in global. But it took a long time to get the book by a Bosnian author. Chasim Hajimeilic published his research, the art of Islamic calligraphy in 2009. In chapter, the art of calligraphy in the Balkans and Bosnia, the names of unknown calligraphers, or to say calligraphy that were unknown before. At one time, Bosnian scholars were two calligraphers, and their biographies could be found in anthology of literature. It is noticeable that papers about Bosnian calligraphers are rare, but there are still a certain number of texts that deal with the love of calligraphers and their works. So, when we talk about context, two decisive moments in the history of Bosnia had occurred at the turn of the 17th and 18th century. The first was the attack of the Habsburg Prince Elgin of Savoy in 1697, and the second was the battle of Banyaluqa, the city of Banyaluqa, in 1737. The first attempt was a success, but the second was a disaster for the Habsburg troops. Elgin Savoy's rampage was a blow to the prosperity of Bosnia. To feel the charm of Sarajevo before 1697, we should refer to the text of the famous Ottoman Chevaler Evliyat Celebi, who visited the city in 1660 and wrote, There are, I quote, there are many cities called Sarajevo, but this Bosnian city of Sarajevo is the most advanced, beautiful and live. Boneless, innumerable living water flow in the lower and upper part of the city, and on all sides are gardens which look like rose and fenced gardens of paradise. End of quote. Chevalers from the east made positive impressions of Sarajevo, but Europeans who visited the city also did. Luan Zeduan, the French consul in Aleppo, was the first French chevaler who wrote about Sarajevo. In the January 1624, he spent seven days in the city, and in his diary he says, City is big as Venice, and in terms of size, it approaches Paris. Sarajevo has been a commercial cultural center for more than a century. The invasion of Elgin of Savoy interrupted the golden age of the city. After October 1697, Sarajevo never returned to its former glory. The court record shows the condition of the buildings after the Prince of Savoy's invasion. The document clearly states that the Habsburg troops set fire to undestroyed the city. Four years later, Bosnia and Bosniaks regained their self-confidence in battle of city of Benelucca in 1737, when the troops of the Habsburg Empire went on campaign guided by the information that Bosnia was not ready for action, which seemed like a good time to attack. When the threat was obvious, Bosnian governor Ali Pasha Hekimolu organized the defense on his initiative without awaiting the Sultan's approval. Bosnaks defeated the Habsburg troops near Benelucca on August 1737. After this date, after this year, the Habsburgs did not start military campaigns for the next several decades. New taxes caused the crisis of the Ottoman Empire. Riots broke out, Sarajevo and Mostar were the centers of the uprising. The economy of Bosnia slowed down, but when we think about the 18th century, it was a time of intellectual revival, and the main center was against Sarajevo. Among the most prominent figures of the time were poet and calligrapher Mehmed Meili Gurani, professor of medresa and secretary of the court Abdullah Kantamiri, poet and calligrapher Mustafa Narudin Sharifovich Nuri, librarian and Mufti Osareva Muhammad Fonichalin, and not to forget Cadi historian and poet Muhammad Emin Isevich, she, the professor of medresa, Razy Velikoca Zade, Cadi Mehmed Chohadjić, and at the end, chronicler Mullah Mustafa Bashevsky. In the abstract detail sent, I mentioned that in the 18th century Sarajevo, there were schools of calligraphy. From the 15th to the end of the 19th century, Bosnia and Herzegovina belonged to the world of the Ottoman civilization. That is the reason why calligraphy of Bosnia cannot be viewed outside the Ottoman calligraphy tradition. The schools of calligraphy were formed on the model of those in Istanbul, following the Ottoman calligraphy chain. Few calligraphy diplomas of Bosnia calligraphers are preserved. These documents, diplomas, or Ijazetname, apart from being a proof that the student became a calligrapher, contained other information, such as the professor's name, the calligraphy script for which diploma is obtained, the year of graduation, and calligraphy chain. This is the photo from the theater play named Bashevsky's Sarajevo Dream. Chronicle Mullah Mustafa Bashevsky is the best source for understanding the 18th century Sarajevo. Between the 1746 and 1804, Mullah Mustafa Bashevsky recorded almost every event that happened in Sarajevo. All historians of Sarajevo used the chronicle. During his 50 years of writing, he probably did not know that his manuscript is going to be very valuable. From the 1747, he compiled an annual obituary, and along with the name of the deceased, he wrote remarks. After reading the chronicle, it was concluded that Sarajevo was calligraphy center. In his chronicle, Bashevsky mentions calligraphers such as Emin de Fedar. I will now quote the parts from his chronicle. Emin de Fedar, known in all Bosnia as an excellent calligrapher in various styles of calligraphy, intellectual, between 80 to 90 years. He died in Travnik. Omer Effendi Zafrani, the deputy catip in Mechkeme, looked like Ottoman calligrapher of Divani, Yellowish skin. White bearded Sheikh Suleiman, son of Sheikh Idris, Qaderi, Bashevsky of the 39th Jama'at, Hatip of the Alip Pasha Mosque, at the same time a sheikh and turbidar. He knew Divani. Gurani, whose pen name was Meili, was long-haired dervish in Chula, from a prominent family, intellectual, and well-educated, an excellent poet, so that there was no equal in Bosnia. He was a local, better, smart, white, with clear memory, and very learned. He was also a painter. Although he knew Arabic drama and syntax, he did not stand out as connoisseur of Arabic language. He wrote Talik script very beautiful. One name in his chronicles stands out, and that is Haji Hassan el-Refai Miserie. And now I will quote the parts dedicated to this calligrapher and the chronicle of Mustafa Bashevsky. Calligrapher Haji Hassan Effendi Miserie merchant, he came to Sarajevo with 10 bags of accha and married the daughter of Christian Camber. Within a short time, he gave several students' diplomas in calligraphy. He went to Egypt, then returned to Sarajevo, got ill, and died. This is the drawing from the tombstone of Haji Hassan el-Refai Miserie. It is unknown when Hassan el-Refai arrived in Sarajevo. He had two wives that is information that documents show us. The one wife was in Sarajevo and the other in Cairo, and he lived in the mahali of Sultan Fatih Mosque. He had a business partner in Sarajevo as well as in his homeland. Hassan Effendi was a skilled and wealthy merchant who was selling goods from Egypt, such as expensive textiles, carpets, swords, and daggers. After he died, his asset was over 400,000 accha. He was generous and left a third of his property to charity in his will. Dozens of different pens, a variety of paper, calligraphy knives and scissors, calligraphy textbook were found in his possession. El-Refai Effendi was a calligrapher, but the listed items suggest he sold calligraphy equipment. He was a true connoisseur of art. The Mus'haf in his legacy was estimated at 14,400 accha. For those of you familiar with Islamic calligraphy in Egypt, I will stress that Ahmed Shukri, one of the most recognized calligraphers in Egypt, was Hassan Effendi's professor. In the book, Judahat to translate Excellence of Calligraphy is the 18th century work dedicated to the history of Islamic calligraphy, in which author Murtad al-Zabadi mentions that Ahmed Shukri was a student of Muhammad Nouri, a known calligrapher. That means that Hassan Effendi belonged to the prominent calligraphy tradition in Egypt. In the 18th century, Egypt in calligraphy, to which Hassan Effendi belongs, followed the path of Ottoman calligraphy known as Tariq al-Hamdiyeh, or the Sheikh Abdullah way. In the chronicle of Mullah Mustafa Bashevsky, it is written that, I will now quote again, for a short period he gave several students diplomas in calligraphy, which is the evidence that Hassan Effendi founded a school of calligraphy in Staleo. Unfortunately, no works of al-Fi are preserved, but we can only judge his calligraphy skills after seeing the works of his students. And here is the one diploma that he gave to Muhammad Arashidi, one of the Salafi calligraphers in the 18th century. But we know the name of the others. Okay, here are they. Ibrahim Babic Almuti, Ahmed Imam, Ahmed Fehmi, and Ismail Zihni Konizi. Besides Hajj Hassan Effendi School of Calligraphy, there were others too. School of calligraphy or school of Hajj Muhammad Sarayli, Ismail Zihni, Ahmed Ludfi, and etc. In his chronicle, Bashevsky mentions the death of certain Mustafa Bekri. And here is part of the Hijaz et al. diploma that Hassan Effendi issued to one of his students. And now this diploma is in the collection of the University Library in Bratislava. There is one interesting information in the chronicle of Mullah Mustafa Bekri. He mentions the death of certain Mustafa Bekri with the words, Bekri Mustafa wrote calligraphy works and sold them. He drew beautifully, although he was not a real calligrapher. And this is the work of this Mustafa Bekri that Mullah Mustafa Bekri mentioned in chronicle. Although Bashevsky says that Mustafa Bekri practiced calligraphy, he does not consider him a calligrapher. It is possible that Bekri did not have a Hijaz et al. or diploma because he was maybe self-thought. Even though his writing was beautiful, he could not claim to be an excellent artist. Bashevsky does not answer the question or hint at the criteria on which the judgment is based. The 20th century art historian did not establish the criteria for recognizing calligraphers. The criteria were known before. Only one work of Bekri is known. This is Levha or calligraphy work dated in 1788. And this is the oldest found Levha by the Bosnian calligrapher. Now it is placed in Mimar Sinan Mask in Sarajevo. Levha is written in Jalislus with black ink or when you can say in Ishmurek, using the traditional technique. The composition is stiff, feels most of the background. It is proportional except for some letters that you can see. Wings with flowers is in the left corner and roses on the right. Between the letters are flowers on the leaves. The text of this Levha is a verse from Quran. وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَتَا إِلَّا عَلَمِينَ Now we are going to talk about art market in the 18th century in Sarajevo and calligraphy. Now I'm going to also quote the part of the story that was about one calligraphy, 18th century calligraphy in Sarajevo. Another person called the attention of Mullah Mustafa. It was the half blind, half is Ibrahim. A man with a pure heart, quiet and modest. Who, despite this, bought the gorgeous title, Sars Imam. He got the name because he was the Imam of the tsar's mosque for many years. But he was much more famous for another thing. He was an excellent copyist of Muschaf. Until his sight became cloudy and almost extinguished, he worked like this. On the last copy of the Muschaf, before he closed it, half is Ibrahim wrote with a trembling hand. Conscribed by the hand of poor Ibrahim. Son of Hajji Muhammad made the Almighty Allah forgive, who covers all shame. The tear he shed afterwards spilled over the written letters. End of quote. Rashad Kadic, Bosnia novelist, tried to revive the personality of Ibrahim Shehovich, the 18th century choreographer of Sarajevo. It is not surprising that the image of Ibrahim Shehovich impressed the writer. Among all the Sarajevo choreographers, he was the only one who became legendary and was given a unique place as a good man and great choreographer. Half is Ibrahim was most likely born, likely born in Sarajevo who once signed himself as Ibrahim, son of Hajji Muhammad Sarai, but tradition states his last name was Shehovich. For years Ibrahim Shehovich was Imam of the Tsar's Mosque or Sultan Fatih Mosque in Sarajevo. Besides he was Imam, half is Ibrahim copied numerous manuscripts, among them over 60 Qur'an, concluding that he was a suit after choreographer because of the number of manuscripts. Half is Ibrahim Mus'hafs were appreciated, evidenced by the fact they were known as the Mus'hafs of the Tsar's Imam. Ibrahim was a notable choreographer of Salus and Nesq, but not all of his manuscripts have been preserved. His first known manuscript is the 32nd copy of the Qur'an from the 1780, in the same year he finished the 33rd copy confirming the hypothesis his Mus'has were very popular. Further he copied other works such as Delaylor-Kherat. In the year 1800 half is Ibrahim completed, finished the 54th, 55th and 56th copy of the Mus'haf or Qur'an. He finished the 66th in the year 1812, the year of his death. His grave was next to Sheikh Baghdadi Mosque in Sarajevo. Now I'm going to show you a very interesting subject or interesting thing about the Islamic history of the 18th century and about for me the first gallery of Islamic photography, I wouldn't say in Ottoman art, but in Bosnia for sure. The Bosnia tradition has deep roots in Sufism. Historical sources, archaeological material and oral tradition testify to their presence in the first half of the 15th century. During the following centuries, dervish orders expanded so in Bosnia, it is possible to find the Bektashi, Halveti, Berami, Mehlami, Kaderi, Mevlavi, Rifayi, Shezili, Bedevi and others in different types. Hadrissin and Tekin Sarajevo is the care of Kaderi Tariqa or Kaderi order and one of the most significant in Bosnia. Silahdar Mustafa Pasha, a close associate of Sultan Murat IV ordered its construction. The construction followed the successful campaign of Baghdad in 1639, the conquest in which Silahdar Mustafa Pasha participated, the positive outcome of the military operation or campaign and the desire to express gratitude to his birthplace, Sarajevo, inspired Mustafa Pasha's foundation of the Tekin. The Tekin was epicenter of all events related to the life of dervishes and Sufism, both in Sarajevo and the Balkans. Its sheikhs were well known for their activities. One of the most prominent was Sheikh Hassan Kaymi Baba, sheikh of the 18th century. The works in Bosnian, Arabic, Turkish and Persian were read and commented in the Tekin. At one point the hospital was part of it. The Tekin is famous for the calligraphy works on the walls. Three walls in the reception area have the 94 calligraphic compositions, the ayahs of the Quran, hadiths and dervish sayings are written. Four different styles of script were used, kufi, taliq, jelly and nesq. Only a few works were written in kufi script, 40 in taliq, 12 in jelly or jelly sluss, and 28 in nesq. Ten things are still in the form of Tugra and Veys and other and roses. The longest calligraphy work is written in two lines on all three walls. Jelly nesq script is used for the inscription. The letters are 22 cm high. Ahmed Sheikh of Ghazi Husser Bey Hanika is the author of the text. He did this work in 1745. One of the biggest compositions of the works is this one. Its diameter is 2.85 meters. It is almost three meters in diameter. It is placed on the courtyard wall. You can see here, it is written 12 times. And in the middle, in the center of this work, is the seal of Suleiman, or muhur of Suleiman. In her paper, the first of the top copy albums, Lale Uluc, is written out that, lastly, some instances of the 18th century transfers of calligraphy compositions from top copy album pages in monumental scale on a wall can be seen in the Sinanovatek in Sarajevo. That is very important. Sarajevo had very good connection with Istanbul and that fashion in Islamic calligraphy in 18th century Istanbul and current artists you can find here also. Because I'm an art historian, I see the deco walls as the gallery of Islamic calligraphy. In the end, this is the conclusion of my research. In conclusion of our meeting, we can say that in the 18th century in Sarajevo, there were many or number of calligraphers, schools of calligraphy, high aesthetic values, variety of calligraphy styles or different calligraphy styles, art market, gallery of Islamic calligraphy. Thank you very much for your patience. And I hope that this my paper was and research was interesting. Thank you very much. And I will be very happy to have any questions and happy to answer them. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for this very interesting lecture and to the audience, please write your comments or your questions in the chat. Thank you very much for this that was giving us a broad picture and insights, sometimes wonderful and humorous at times insights into the, the history and the calligraphy and calligraphers of the Bosnian region over a large period of time. So, before we go to the chat. I just wanted to ask you one. I've got several questions but I'll ask you one. Okay, thank you very much. I'm waiting for it. I just was wondering, you know, when you talked about the art market. I mean, how is it meant the art market. It is, you know, you, you made that you, you gave the example, the example of the merchant had she has an alwafari mystery with that beautiful tombstone and and the fact that he was going back and forth and he was obviously a merchant. So, so was it very localized was was it's very wide within the wider Islamic world. How was it organized do we know anything about that. Do you think about this merchant has a fight. I mean, in general, when you have the art market in Sarajevo, you know, Okay, we know that the there are a few research papers about and text about the way that Islamic manuscripts and books came to Bosnia. And we know that the Bosnia scores went to Istanbul and also ordered some books to be copied for them. And there is one place in in a city of focha it is in the eastern part of Bosnia. We have the information from the 16th century that the 16 calligraphers together for a project to copy one Ottoman in school Pedia in I think about the 20 volumes. And we at the end of this of the last volume there is information that one of the prominent figures so that place that city of focha ordered to have this in school Pedia and also the in the Ottoman sources that we can find in Sarajevo. We, we can see that some of the, the say books were bought in Egypt in Syria in other parts of the today's Turkey and they were brought here. So we saw the conclusion is that the, there were the merchants that that they just bought the books from the other parts of the summit world and they brought them here. Okay, thank thank you very much. There are a couple of comments and questions in the chat I'm going to read them out. Thank you very much, Dr the Richard which for your very interesting lecture. It is refreshing to hear that you have founded your research on the center versus peripheries axis. I'm studying the role of agency of the House of Subway in European art history, and in particular in Shinwa's area in the 18th century. In whom you mentioned gained Europe wide fame for the 50 feet in Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Zenta in 1697. I understand that his role is only tangential to your research. He assembled a very important art and book collection I was wondering if you have ever come across any primary source about him looting calligraphy books in Sarajevo and most obviously, what they were about. I'm interested in books with images of plants animals and I see that some of the texts you presented have some intertextual images of flowers, like most stuff about 1787 which obviously would not apply because he was written after Eugene attacks Anyway, yeah. About the Elgin of Savoy, Prince of Egos Elgin of Savoy. We know that he looted Sarajevo but we don't have any information that he was interested in manuscript and collection of collecting the manuscript, but Sarajevo was a very famous city of goldsmiths. And I think that his attention was to get more gold than manuscripts in that time. And I think that he don't have much time to go to the city and collect the books and other stuff. But the other information from that it is dated just two years after his, let's say, visiting of Sarajevo. And we see that almost all hundred masks in Sarajevo were destroyed or got fired. So I think that about talking about manuscripts, I don't think so. And maybe, but we can talk about other examples of art or objects of art that maybe Elgin of Savoy took with him from Sarajevo and other because he went from the north to the center, Bosnia center. Sarajevo is, let's say, some kind of in the center of Bosnia. And maybe, maybe in the other parts, maybe just go some few months but I don't think so. That's not my opinion. Okay, thank you very much. So we have Nancy Meeker right. Thank you for such a fascinating talk. Do any of your sources mentioned visits of calligraphers from Istanbul, or did calligraphers from Sarajevo travel there? In other words, how did the local calligraphers learn about what was going on in the local calligraphy? Sarajevo, let's go back to the 10th century, not to the Ottoman period. The, from the middle of the Middle Ages, Bosnia and Sarajevo had very good connections with the Constantinople. I think that connection, relationship between Sarajevo and Bosnia still exists. And the merchants, the travelers, the people from Bosnia returned from Istanbul. And you know this road from the central Europe to the Constantinople is, it was from the Roman times. But when you talk about the calligraphy, Mustekiv Zade, in his book about the famous calligraphers or the Ottoman calligraphers, he mentions about 40 Bosnian calligraphers in that time in Istanbul. And some of them, not all of them, came back to the homeland to Bosnia, bringing the new experience from the capital of Ottoman Empire. And I don't know that famous calligraphers from the Istanbul came to Sarajevo, but there are the people from all over the, as you see, the Egyptian, Egypt and others. The Sarajevo was interesting because it was the, it was placed as most western, say, capital of the Ottoman Empire or the most important city of the Ottoman West. I hope that I answered the question. Yes, there was the relationship, but we don't know if there were the calligraphers from Istanbul coming to Sarajevo, but we know the calligraphers from Bosnia going there. Thank you. Before we go to the next one in the chat, I have another question that is vaguely related, because I wanted to ask you about illuminators. So these beautiful books, Quran in particular with the beautiful calligraphy and then a lot of illumination around it, where the center of production of the whole book, including illumination, you know, where were they in Sarajevo itself? The calligraphers from the late 16th century, I think this from the dated in the 1580, give us information that in the very center of the Sarajevo, it was formed the part of the city with the Mugellids or the artisans of the book. And I think they were the one who illuminated the manuscripts. But also I found the very interesting thing that one calligrapher, Bosnia calligrapher, for years didn't change the way the style of his illumination. And this illumination is very similar to the one of the manuscripts of famous Ottoman calligrapher, Dervish Ali. And I think that in every way they followed the Ottoman way of style of an illumination. And after I did many researches about the Bosnian calligraphers, my conclusion is that the calligraphers, in most way, they were the miniatures, the illuminators, but this way the book binding, we had these special artisans or artists for that. Yes. Thank you very much. We have Elizabeth Alexandrine, who says, thank you so much for this wonderful talk, Dr. Dervishovich. The Ijazat Nama of Rashidi is very interesting and wonderful to see. Do you have any additional information you can share with us about the type of paper it was written on and perhaps the dimensions of the certificate itself? I don't know the dimensions, I could find somewhere I have, but I compared this Ijazat Nama or diploma that Hassan Rafayim is the issue to his student Rashidi to one other diploma, 18th century diploma, issued in the same time in Egypt. And conclusion is that the style, the form, the text, everything that we could find Rashidi diploma in Bosnia is almost the same that we can find in Egypt because that was the Ottoman world and Ottoman civilization in the calligraphy in Egypt, calligraphy in Bosnia, they followed the style of the Ottoman capital. So there is no difference between the diplomats Ijazat Nama in Bosnia, Ijazat Nama in Egypt, and I also compare this calligraphy chain that found this Rashidi diploma with the one in Egypt and other diplomats issued in Istanbul. You know, and I found that the chains never change. Yeah, I wonder whether you know I wonder to whether you could say something maybe there hasn't been any research, and it's a bit unfair to ask you about the paper because that paper, especially the detail that you showed, showed peculiarities. Yeah, I'm not that. That's okay. Yeah, yeah, I could answer because I, that is not the focus of my search but I came across one few interesting things in the Gansu Sabri library. The paper in Bosnia came from the east, say from Istanbul, but also came from the Dormitia Dubrovnik and Vinay from the Venice. And as I said, it was not strange but it better to say interesting. I was going through the one Quran. I think it is a 17 or 18th century. I don't know. It was a few years ago. And I took, take a look about what the, you know, this watermarks that you can find the European paper. And I found the cross on it in it. It was that the mark of one workshop in North Italy. But the Quran was written on that, on that paper. So we, it is interesting you can see the little cross on the other side so this paper. But your friend Bosnia didn't mind to write the words of God on that. In conclusion, we can say that the paper in Bosnia came from Italy and from the other parts of Europe. And in the middle of the 18th century, there was a dispute between Ottoman Empire and I think European countries. But Bosnia, Bosnia continued to made a trade with Europe. And there was a document issued by from the Ottoman court to stop this trade because they were in the fight. So Bosnia was on the very edge and sometimes they didn't listen from the orders from the court. Thank you. Are there any other questions? Please write them in the chat. I just wanted to ask you, you know the beautiful square kufik Shahada that you showed, which is also the image of your poster, the three meters. Yes, yes. Diameter. What is the material? It is, it is the color applied on stucco. It is stucco because I could see that it's not on the wall. It goes beyond the wall. No, it is on the wall. It is on the wall. Yes, it is on the wall. It is the traditional wall painting that you can find in the mosques, but the restorers had very problems to keep it on the wall because sometimes they had the problems with that. As I know it is one of the unique calligraphy work in Ottoman art history. I didn't find something similar to the in the history. Really beautiful. Thank you. Well, thank you. If there aren't any other questions, I just was wondering very briefly, Haris, if you could tell us, you know, in the audience, something about your project under the sky of cheerful faith and the possible exhibition that you are preparing. Thank you very much, Professor Quantandini for this question. And we are planning, say I'm the part of the project with the name under the sky of the cheerful faith. It is the big research project. We are planning to make exhibition in the September next year. That is the research project with the main focus on Islamic culture tradition in Bosnia. And about for now it is more than 200 people researchers, professors, university professors in this project. We are trying to say that Bosnia has these two roots, the European one and the one from the East. This is the place to get from gathering two different cultures and that in Bosnia you can say there is, you can find non Islamic tradition in the Bosnia culture that it is different from the say from the Turkey from the other parts. And also that the European tradition in the living Islam in Bosnia way. And what that is not, we are trying to show and present this heritage to ourselves because we still don't know a lot about our tradition. And also we are trying to present the Islamic tradition, the culture of Bosnia to as well as on the East, because we are planning to have this exhibition in the capitals in Europe and also in the East. And because our art historian, almost every week we are going to these collections in the country, searching for the new objects. And on last Sunday we went in one private collection and we found the works of Sami Effendi, Ali Al-Pastan and also the other famous Bosnian calligraphers, but also to try to present the collection of Bosnian carpets to the wider audience. And also to show, say, it is written now that one of the best commentators of the Ibn Arabi was the Bosnian author Abdullah Bushnak and that the Bosnians went also established the chairs of Islamic thought in Cairo and Damascus and Istanbul. So that is the one of it. And also I suggest you to visit the internet site, you can find Bosnian experience, it is the, I think, .com, and you can find the text and very good text in English. And that is about the project. Thank you very much. There are actually a couple of other questions in the chat. So Valerie Gonzalez, thank you Haris for this lovely presentation, as I had the opportunity to visit Sarajevo in 2006, and to meet Bosnian calligraphers and their beautiful work. I was wondering whether their work is better studied or documented than the traditional one. Could you talk, could you say a word about contemporary calligraphy? Yes, yes. Thank you very much, Professor Gonzalez and Bosnia is still connected with Ottoman world. The professor of mine, Chazm Hajjumailic, he was the student of famous Hasan Celebi, and there are still professional calligraphers in traditional manner, but only few say there are two of them trying to make some contemporary approaches to calligraphy. And I think, I'm sorry to say the audience is not interested in this contemporary Islamic calligraphy. I am, but the others are not. And one of my, if I have the time, I can find the work of my colleague, and just to show you the way the work of her say, just a moment, maybe the professor Gonzalez would be interested in her, just a second, sorry, just a few minutes to open this. Why are you searching that? I just wanted to say that in the Brunei Gallery in Sohas, from January 2023 we have a huge exhibition on calligraphy that comes, Islamic calligraphy that comes, so there will be an area for, you know, historical calligraphy, but the majority of the exhibition will be on contemporary calligraphy. This is the work of my colleague, she's a professor of art history, and also the painter, and this is the way she started to deconstruct the Arabic letters, and then she continued to deconstruct the Cuffix script to the lines. And with the most, for me it is one of the most abstract calligraphy works from her pen, and then she finished her calligraphy, she started to trade life in calligraphy in traditional way, but searching for the essence of calligraphy, the meaning of the calligraphy, it was the, these pillars of belief, her work I think is about, finished in 2010, and that is, as I said, contemporary calligraphy that you can find in Bosnia. It's very interesting. It is very interesting, thank you. You're welcome. We have another question from Yasmin Mehio. Thank you so much for the talk, Dr. Dervisiewicz. Dervisiewicz, as someone based in Beirut, I found it fascinating seeing your approach to this from the periphery center point of view, but what I found more interesting is this connection between two different peripheries with Egypt to Bosnia. I just wanted to ask what you think this dialogue brought to the art as opposed to center periphery relationship that is more biased usually to the center. Thank you. It's an interesting question. It is very interesting question, because it is the dialogue between two peripheries of the Ottoman world. And I asked myself what brought Hassan Vefai and Misri to Sarajevo. But after reading the chavars, the diaries of the chavars from the east and the west, they always mentioned Sarajevo as the place, as a paradise. The Europeans, one of the chavars from Italy, he compares Sarajevo to Padua. And others, like Hassan, the earlier Celebi, he said the Sarajevo is the most beautiful city that has this prefix Sarajevo. And I think this story came to these merchants in Egypt, and they were looking for the best place for the trade. And maybe they just wanted something new. Maybe Hassan Vefai was adventurer. So he wanted to try to go to the Ottoman west. Because and also what brought the lot of merchants, the chavars to Sarajevo, that is, I cannot quote, but I remember the way this European chavar described the 17th century Sarajevo. He said that in the market, the main market in Sarajevo, you can see different people from different places, from Europe, from Dormitia to Venice, from France, the Turks, the Egyptian. And maybe it could also be interesting for you that Egyptian were not only in Sarajevo, they were also the group of Egyptian in the southern city of Mostar. So Hassan Vefai visited them. So I don't know, I think that they made a group of Arab merchants in Bosnia. Thank you. Tanya Tola, thank you Haris for a fascinating talk. I was wondering if there is any connection between the work of these calligraphers and the scripts used on objects. For example, metalwork that you mentioned, where these two different traditions not working together. Thank you very much. And also, before answering, I want to add that I'm open to do the projects together with the researchers from abroad, because I found here very interesting things and topics for further research. And maybe this relationship Egypt and Bosnia could be maybe one of them. And Professor Tolar, yes, we can find the calligraphy on tombstones, the calligraphy on the architecture, the masks, also on the metalwork. And also on textiles, but Bosnia was famous for three. Regarding Islamic art, it is the art of the stone, art of the metal, and also the calligraphy or the art of the book. So I found a lot of the tombstones are masterpieces of the art of the stone in Bosnia. I think that a few weeks ago, I posted one on the Facebook, the tombstone from the southern part of Bosnia at the height is almost five meters. I think it is the biggest and highest tombstone in Europe. I don't know if there is any other places. But also we can find the calligraphy on it. And when we take a look to the objects in metal, we can find the calligraphy, maybe sometimes it is poetry, sometimes it's just dedication to someone or just that it belongs to someone. But calligraphy, yes, I found it on different countries. Thank you very much. That was a really interesting discussion. And if there aren't any other questions, just thank you, Harris, and to the audience, come back next month for on the 24th of November for Richard McClary's talk on ceramics. And thank you very much, Harris, that was really... Thank you very much for inviting me to be part of these seminars. As I said, I'm really honored to start this cycle. Yeah, absolutely. We hope that this is the beginning of an interesting relationship on these subjects. A round of virtual applause. Okay, bye-bye. Good night. Good night.