 Hi everyone, I'm Ed Baker, and I'm very pleased to be your host producer here on the addiction recovery channel, otherwise known as ARC. ARC is a show that's been developed to bring you current and accurate information regarding fellow Vermonters with substance use disorder, this brain disease that we call addiction. The idea being that if you have accurate and evidence-based information, your response to this particular population, of course, will be compassion and will be contributing to saving lives. I'm very pleased today to have as my distinguished and accomplished guests Ron Stankovich and Christine Johnson. Thank you for being on the show. You're welcome Ed. Glad to be here. Ron Stankovich is the Community Relations Coordinator with Dominion Diagnostics. Dominion Diagnostics is a drug testing laboratory here in Vermont. As part of this role, Ron co-chairs the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance Working Recovery Action Team, which is the author of the topic of our show today, the Employer Toolkit. Ron is a master's level social worker, graduated of the University of Vermont. He also holds a degree, a master of science degree in administration. Ron's been working in the substance use addiction recovery field for a number of years now in Vermont. He's kept his eye on the prize. Ron has done some wonderful work organizing community groups, working with the community at large to craft solutions. I want to thank you for that, Ron. I want to recognize your contributions. You're welcome Ed. Thank you for saying so. And Christine Johnson is currently the Executive Director of the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance. In June, Christine will become the Deputy Commissioner of the Department for Children and Families, the Family Services Division. Congratulations to you. Thank you Ed. And congratulations to them. Thank you. I appreciate that. Christine has a rich professional history in the field of human services in both Colorado and Vermont. Her work includes addressing issues of poverty, juvenile and social justice, youth transitioning from foster care, gender specific programming and the opioid epidemic. A native of Milton, Christine is passionate about people and believes in them wholeheartedly. I'd like to begin with the CCOA, Christine, the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance. This is the end of your tenure there, literally today. That's right. Yeah, today's my last day. And I'd like to begin with you reviewing some of the major accomplishments of CCOA before we go into the Employee Toolkit. Sure. Well, let me just say briefly that Chittenden County Opioid Alliance is a community-based initiative that was created about four years ago as the brainchild of the United Way and then Dr. Harry Chen when he was with the Health Department. And so how it got created was the Stiller Family Foundation was able to financially support together with UVM Medical Center and other funders such as Delta Dental and GE Healthcare who really saw the benefit of what we were doing to address the opioid epidemic in Chittenden County. And so we are a very small entity. We have the equivalent of two FTEs, myself, a half-time data analyst, and then a communications and admin person. And we're really working to be the backbone of how we address opioids and the epidemic as a community. And so we've had the fortune of having an executive committee that was really present and at the table and willing to really make some changes and really take this opioid epidemic head on. And so I've been in my position only for a year and a half and I hate to go. I really love this work and feel that there is such value in it. But some of the work that we've been able to do through the executive committee and the action teams, one, the working recovery action team that Ron co-chairs. We have a prevention action team and then also treatment access and recovery supports. And really that is where the work and the ideas and the activity gets generated. And so some of the things that we've done recently is we used some of the funding that we received from GE Healthcare to provide $25,000 worth of grants to nonprofits that are working to support employees by simply giving them $5,000 to think about how they could do something different or better. In the case of Turning Point, it was buying new computers when they moved into their new space on South Wenuski Avenue and being able to use more current technology to support people in job searches and creating a resume and those types of things. We also were able to financially support the safe needle exchange, safe recovery that Howard runs with $35,000 to get them to stand up the low barrier medication assisted treatment program that they started. That's about eight or nine months ago now. Certainly the toolkit has been, I think, a cornerstone of what we've done because it really built on some work that was done with the help of GE Healthcare. But also it was the response of those employers that came to that table to say, we really need information on how do we think about hiring and retaining people with substance use disorders. So a lot of our work, I'm really proud of the fact that it's very grassroots, that we provide a table for the community and for partners and providers to be at to really address and hash out what are those issues and how are we going to collectively as a group address them. Because what we know is that there's not one organization that can own this. Everybody has to play a role. Very, very nice. In those three initiatives that you briefly described, the Bank of Computers at the Chittenden County turning point. When I walked into the turning point for the first time and saw that high tech, high quality, brand new, no fooling around, we're going to really support you. It was really joy in my heart. There was no stigma, all 100% commitment. The low Buprenorphine, low barrier Buprenorphine prescribing at the safe recovery. That is one really well focused initiative and also with the employer toolkit. Three really well focused, I'm sure the resources that are put into those three areas is going to be a tremendous return on that investment. So thank you. Ron, as I've mentioned, the employer toolkit has been conceptualized and published by your team. So I'd like you as we begin maybe to, if you'd like, to comment on your experience with your team in putting this together. What was that like? Well, interestingly enough Ed, when those of us who were the inaugural members of the team, we were invited by GE Healthcare to go to their Leadership Academy for two days as a result of receiving the initial grant. It gave us an opportunity to learn about population health programs from national speakers such as CEOs. It was eye-opening in the sense of what was possible. And knowing back home the challenge that we faced and the reasons behind submitting our proposal, which was to support employers to hire onboard and most importantly retain a workforce of individuals in recovery. We also realized too early on that this should not just be about folks in recovery. Though that's an important piece and part of our role is to make sure that employers can support folks in recovery who are perhaps returning to the workplace, but also to create a paradigm shift in how individuals with substance use disorder are viewed. For the simple fact that due to stigma and shame and self-blame, individuals who are struggling and want help often will not self-disclose for fear of how they're going to be judged, treated, and mistreated. So the idea was to help educate employers to understand that these are our friends, our family neighbors, our neighbors, our coworkers, members of the community and if somebody reaches out for help then we need to ensure that individuals understand This is not a moral failing, a character flaw or a choice. Based in science it's a disease, it's a health condition that is both preventable and in the case of somebody who is using substances, very treatable and with the proper support they can live an incredible life in recovery. Very nice, very well said Ron. Which gets us to the next part of the program. I'd like to set the background for the rest of the show. I recently read a research report by Dr. Richard Rossin. Dr. Rossin is a PhD. He leads a team at the University of Vermont. He happens to be an internationally recognized researcher in the field. He and his team recently published a paper, 2019, in the Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment which is read around the world. The research was on people with substance use disorder in treatment here in Vermont receiving medications. So people on treatment with medications for opioid use disorder. Now just to briefly summarize the conclusions, there were positive movements in every measurable area. So there were decreases in negative areas. So emergency room visits, overdoses, things of that nature. Market decreases. Then there were improvements in mental health. Decrease depression, decrease anxiety, more satisfaction with life. So the study shows that treatment really works. There was one measure, this is really interesting, one variable where there was no improvement and that area was employment. So that really caught my eye. I happened to read the paper as we were leading up to this show. So that caught my eye. So I have a collegial relationship with Dr. Rossin so I contacted him and I asked him, do we think that this absence of improvement in that area of employment with this particular population is related to stigma? And he responded, he said, I think stigma plays a role, this is a quote, but I think the lack of information and public understanding about addiction treatment and addiction recovery is a more pervasive issue. So he's kind of separating stigma from this lack of education and he's saying the lack of education really is a more pervasive issue. Then he goes a little bit further and he says, our field has to do a better job of developing a common vocabulary and open discussion about the benefits and risks of hiring people in treatment and recovery. And I couldn't think of a better lead-in to this show today. I do believe that the employer toolkit is exactly that. It's the beginning of an open discussion about the benefits and risks of hiring people in treatment and recovery. So I'd like to begin with that. I'd like to begin with the purpose of the employer toolkit. What is the actual purpose of the toolkit as it has been conceived and then published? Sure. I think, again, building on what employers were saying about wanting to know more, it's that information piece and saying we don't really know what to do, we don't know how to identify somebody. But at the same time, we don't know how to ask the questions, we don't know how to have the conversation, but at the same time we know we're hiring people and we have people that are working for us that have issues with substance use. So they're feeling a little stuck and a little helpless. And so this was an opportunity to say, let us help fill in those gaps and make some recommendations about what is happening already that's working well. You know, we have a lot of employers in Chittenden County that are already doing this. TwinCraft is a good example of, through their People Center, they are very open. They have created over really a couple of decades a culture that says you can bring who you are here and we will work with you and we will help you to get treatment or help you to get the things, not even just related to substance use disorder, but we will help you meet you where you are and help you to navigate that while you're employed with us. And so I think that using that really in others as a model, other employers were saying we want to do that too, but how do we do that? What kind of business is TwinCraft? They are manufacturing. Okay. And how many employees do they have? I'm going to guess a couple hundred. That's a guess though. Okay. And they run two shifts a day, I believe. So I hate to speak for them, but they do have, you know, they run a manufacturing operation and they've created flexibility for their employees by having four 10-hour days and enabling employees to make up time if they missed it for treatment or appointments. They can make that up on Friday. But again, creating that culture that says, we really meet you where you are. We care about who you are as a person. Let's figure it out together. And as a result, like I said, other employers were saying we want to know, one, that it can be done and then we want to know how do we do that? So the toolkit was born out of a need for people to learn and overcome some of those barriers of what happens when people don't show up? Or what happens when, you know, people, you know, maybe they go back to using? How do we manage that? Well, we've got other employers that are already doing that. So let's learn from them. And that's, the toolkit was that opportunity. So the leadership at TwinCraft took it upon themselves to research, educate themselves and then develop a culture that was supportive of people with substance use disorder. Yes. And at some point, and I think it might be worth having somebody like Elizabeth Perron on the show because I think that they recognize this a long time ago and have really been building it over time. But I also think for employees and employers who are coming new to this, there's a lot of opportunity there. And part of it is taking the toolkit and thinking about what pieces resonate. You know, what are we doing already? What are things that we could be doing differently? And really working toward those things. And maybe bringing in some other employers like TwinCraft and Rhino Foods and Edland, Leonardo's Pizza, you know, on and on. There is a long list. And so maybe creating those opportunities for companies to meet with at one another and have that conversation about how do we do this and how do we support each other. I mean, that's really important. Just a comment, and then I want you to speak a little bit about this too. But it's important to break down those barriers to get employers out of their silos, to have people have access to these other wonderful examples of success that are happening in our state. People, they tend to work in their own little realm and may not know what's going on right next door, but they may have the same need that they're not really addressing. Right. And that's true anywhere and everywhere. And the other piece is that this toolkit was really an attempt to provide the resources. So we know that employers don't have to become experts in all of this, you know, what is the treatment available and what are the resources in the community. But if we can point them in that direction, then I think what it does is it gives them a better understanding and maybe an understanding of who do I call, who do I pick up the phone and talk to, and then let the provider system step in and support employers as well. Yeah, it's really the beginning of a new day. Thank you. And Ron, you want to elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah, two things Ed. One, kind of doing a tail end off of what Christine just said, about a year and a half ago we surveyed a number of businesses in Chittenden County. We had 145 survey respondents and one of the questions was really an opportunity for us to tease out what do you know, what don't you know and what do you need. And one of the responses was incredibly unique in the sense that we asked, do you know of community resources that could help you in the substance use disorder arena around your employees? And 42% said no, we have absolutely no idea what's available, nor do we have an idea of where to go. And when you're looking at just under 50% of employer responses saying, I don't know what's out there. And there are numerous community resources and programs available, but as with any society they're somewhat siloed. And so the idea then became more reality. It's like, well, if this many individuals don't know what's available, why don't we act as a clearinghouse, if you will? This toolkit is extremely comprehensive, but it's not all inclusive. And our hope is that as employers begin to utilize the toolkit, we'll find out what else is needed, what's working really well, what may be confusing so that as part of our next steps is a constant re-evaluation. And also you talked about the culture that we have. I mean, we have an opioid epidemic. Alcohol is still playing a prevalent role. Benzodiazepines, cocaine, methamphetamine, they're all making strong comebacks. So for someone to not address this issue is oftentimes born out of fear or an ill-conceived view of what this really does, who it is. So I remember many years ago driving through Boston and seeing a sign put up that said Rome wasn't built in a day if it was, we'd have hired their contract. And in the case of place like TwinCraft, this is not anything that's going to happen overnight. There needs to become a cultural and paradigm shift in terms of how we support employers for they themselves as administrators and supervisors to understand what addiction is and how in recovery the disease is arrested. But also creating training modules for the employees at the company so that we can normalize the process and make it okay to reach out for help. Not only is it okay but you're encouraged to do so and if you do so we're going to support you in treatment and your job is going to be here because we all need two things in this life, love and purpose. And I'm quoting Gary DeCarlos from the Turning Point Center. It's one of my favorite quotes. And if we can do that, if we can remove to a degree the stigma, create an atmosphere where, okay, it's all right for me to step forward. I can get help and my job will be waiting for me when I get back because that purpose of work identity is often huge for folks. So this will not happen today, tomorrow, next month, or probably even this year, but hopefully in the near term it will. Yeah, that's so well said, Ron, with such sensitivity and connectedness to people with substance use disorder. And that's what rings through in the toolkit as you read it. There's that sense of the people who have authored this really understand people with substance use disorder and what they need to get better and employers and what they need to help people to get better. Well, and I think just to jump in there Ed for a second, I think what Dr. Rawson is pointing out is really valid. And I really think it's both. And I think that in educating employers and employees about, you know, what is the brain science behind addiction? When we start to think about it as a disease and not as something to be ashamed of. It shifts, it's that paradigm shift that Ron talks about, but it shifts that and it helps us to educate ourselves, educate our family members. And I think that stigma then starts to lessen right along with it. So I think he's right. I'm not surprised to see that the employment piece didn't shift yet because I think that's where the work is. And what we do know is 60% of people with substance use disorder in this country are employed full time. And so it's very incumbent upon us as employers, as community members and as, you know, as community partners in this work to think about, okay, what is the work? And that's what I'm really proud of the Chinden County Opioid Alliance and the Working Recovery Action Team for really tackling this. Because I have to tell you, I've been on phone calls with people from other states. This toolkit is going much, much broader than just our Vermont borders because we're not the only ones who are saying we don't know how to do this. I think around the country there's this void and I think this is a really great step in helping employers and employees both to really recognize how do we support ourselves in the employment realm, but also how do we support each other as community members and as employees. Yeah, and just to stay with that for one second, you know, there's this sentence in the purpose of the toolkit that I think bears upon, you know, exactly what you're both speaking about. It says, quote, you probably wrote this. It is our hope that it will support employers to hire on board and retain people who have been an important part of the workplace. And this is the part, but who have often navigated their careers and substance use with shame and fear of losing their livelihood. Now, when, you know, Vivek Murthy, the Attorney, the Attorney General up till 2017, focuses on this. When people are cloaked in shame because they have a substance use disorder, they're very reluctant to seek help. And when they stay in that secret place, the nature of the brain disease is to get worse. So by creating an atmosphere where they don't feel comfortable coming forward, we inadvertently create an atmosphere within which they're likely to get worse. When that person is your employee, the best thing you can do is create the atmosphere that you're trying to create. To normalize this idea that people have illnesses, people get better from illnesses. We are going to support you in getting better from your illness and support you in your recovery from your illness. This is a major step forward, and it rings very loudly in practically every page of the toolkit. So I wanted to go from here, I wanted to, so for me, you know, in reading what you've created, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it looks like there's really two tiers. There's a tier one, which is to provide stable recovery supports to normalize recovery for people in recovery, to reach out to people in recovery, to hire people in recovery. And then it looks like there's a tier two, to more help employees that are already employed that might have substance use disorder that may not be in recovery, may not be in treatment, and may be, you know, in the shadows. To let them know it's time to, it's okay, we're not going to respond to you with a punitive measure. You're fired because you have a substance use disorder. We're going to respond to you with compassion. We want to help you. We want to set a stage and put policies in place that will enable you to get help. Is that the case? That's tough to answer, Ed, because we can't possibly be in the minds of all the employers. It is our hope through this toolkit and as part of our next steps, creating training modules for employer and employees to help move this down, not necessarily a solid kick, but maybe a gentle nudge, so that employers begin to realize that, yes, we have a workforce of individuals in recovery, and I'm sure we'll get to the value of hiring an individual in recovery, not just in terms of their work ethic and capability, but the cost savings, that type of thing. But also, too, that individuals who have developed a disorder are oftentimes still very, very capable employees who are struggling. They're struggling with a disease no different than any other fatal disease. And our hope is that employers will begin to realize that we've got a work family member here, we've got a valuable asset, we've got an individual who we value who is struggling, and that we can normalize that just as you would encourage somebody who has an adverse physiological situation or has an abnormal test result as an employer, you would ask, please go get checked out and take care of yourself. We want that to be the same for somebody stepping forward to say, I might have a problem with alcohol, or I'm struggling with this or that, and that the employer then responds in kind, well, your job will be here, let us know how we can help, please get support, and let us know what we can do to support you in the long term. That's our hope. I see that, and that's the potential. Again, not that all employees would do that immediately, but the ones watching the show, or if you know an employer, if you have a friend that has a business and you're watching the show, certainly tell them about the employer toolkit so the employer can read the toolkit and say, okay, I think that I can start with this item right here. That's something that I could really chew on for a while. Let me implement that. That seems like a good idea. That meets exactly the need that's really been bothering me. I've been wondering, what do I do about that? This toolkit answers that question. Not that they're going to implement every policy, but just to begin and then maybe see the reward from that and then take that a little further. I think somebody mentioned that this is a long term kind of iteration. This is not just going to change everything today. In terms of your two-tiered approach, I think what you are hitting on the nose is that we don't want this just to be about people that are in recovery. That's a very important population of people, but also we don't want to forget those who are struggling with substance use disorder, who may be at that pre-contemplative stage and who aren't yet saying, yes, I need treatment, so how do we support employers and how do employers think about when somebody does get to that point where they're ready or maybe you help provide the opportunities that help them to get to the stage where they're ready? And really, again, when we think about what's in it for employers, well, the cost-benefit savings, what we do know, the research shows that for employers who provide access to treatment for their employees, there is a cost savings of a 12-to-1 ratio. 12-to-1. 12-to-1. And that doesn't mean they're providing the treatment. They're opening the door. That means the cost of rehiring someone or retraining someone? That's right. The turnover, the higher cost of healthcare, all of these things that really matter to employers, rightly so, because we know onboarding a person, it takes time, it takes money, and you do lose productivity when that person leaves. And if that happens a lot, if you have a lot of turnover, up go the expenses for the employer. So thinking again, simply, you know, I think sometimes employers and people in general think this is going to be expensive if they do this, just the opposite. It's actually saving people money if they help provide that access. Absolutely. And some of the research that we did to compile into the toolkit, there's a report by the National Safety Council. We hope that employers will go at this from a head-and-heart perspective and not necessarily just their wallet. But if that becomes a motivating factor, then I'm going to look down at my notes for a second because my short-term memory is equal to my age at this point. That'll make me feel better looking at mine. But those in recovery who are employed, it offers a 36% decrease in absenteeism, less than any other employee subgroup, which I think is remarkable. It shows you that not only do they bring value, but they want to be there. They want to give back out of a sense of loyalty and gratitude. Turnover decreases by 13%. And what I found truly remarkable is that workers in recovery are the least likely employee subgroup to leave their employer. In other words, in terms of retention, savings on the having to advertise, having to interview, having to train and retrain, and then supervise closely up front, it takes that right off the table, and that this is the least likely subgroup of individuals employed to leave their employer. And again, it goes back to that sense of gratitude and loyalty that someone in recovery has. You took a chance on me, guess what? I'm going to pay it back two-fold. Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said. And a great example in your toolkit under what works, there's a vignette from an employee. And the employee says, in my experience, having supportive employers in early recovery is essential. When I decided that it was time to make a change, my employer at the time was very supportive and didn't hire another person to fill my position while I was in residential treatment. I indeed made it up to her by being a better employee after treatment. It's only human nature. If someone responds to you with compassion and you change your entire life as a result, you don't forget that. No, you're absolutely right. And what an example to the other employees, someone over here who maybe has substance use disorder and sees someone like that treated like that, they're likely then to come forward and say, hey, me too, I need some help too. Absolutely. So that's one of the major goals. I guess what I'd like to do is there's recovery supports. There was an interesting sentence here. What hiring considerations and supports were afforded? This is, I guess, a quote from your research. Actually, that part is from one-on-one interviews with Chittenden County employers, those who had identified early on that do actively engage in hiring individuals in recovery. And that was one of the questions that we asked, is what hiring considerations and supports do you have in place so that we could learn what do you do and do well, but also information that we could coalesce and then share with others? So the sentence that I'm referring to, is very important and very revealing about what employers are seeing, having had some experience hiring people from this population. This says that every employer, every employer stressed that it is important for employees to have been sober for a time, be engaged in a 12-step program, or have a significant support system in place. So that to me is a crucial point that employers are making, that if you're going to hire people with substance use disorder that they should have some quality time in recovery and a reasonable amount of stability. So how does the other side of the coin, so say for instance you have employers out there who are willing to hire people in recovery but are looking for people who are in recovery for a while, how do you get this information out to the recovering community, people who are looking for jobs, that there are some employers around that are actually looking for people who have a little bit of stable recovery, that these are employers that are actively recruiting, how do you get that, is it appropriate to get that message out to the recovering community? Well I think that's really where a great opportunity lies, but what I will say what exists currently is we have a vocational rehabilitation system through the state of Vermont that supports people who have substance use disorder because it is a disability that is covered through federal funding and federal programming. So I think contacting a voc rehab office is really a good step and they can certainly help people to plug into progressive employment and apprenticeships and other employment opportunities. But then you also have, we have locally working fields which Mickey Wiles runs and it's a recovery focused employment agency if you will. So again, Mickey is plugging people into those employers that are willing to do this. And then the United Way has a program called Working Bridges and they are offering a lot of supports, things around childcare and transportation and some of those real key ingredients to getting and keeping a job, like if people can tap into those services as well as I think it's the work of the Working Recovery Action Team to think about how do we communicate these messages out to people in recovery. And those resources are in the toolkit. They are in the toolkit, that's correct. The interesting thing about working fields is they utilize a recovery coach model and that's something the state has wholeheartedly embraced is through VAMHAR and their Recovery Coach Academy the idea is to have as many certified, it's a 40 hour program, to have as many certified recovery coaches available in a variety of arenas. And I think that's one of the reasons why working fields is successful. It's not just about employing an individual in recovery but it's about having the individual who can check in and also interface with the employer to learn if things are going great, great, let's continue to do it. But if there are challenges, it allows working fields to support the employee in concert with the employer. And also, in addition to Vogue Rehab, a number of the turning point centers or recovery centers throughout the state also have employment consultants. Locally in Chittenden County, the local turning point has two employment consultants. Very nice. To do everything from how do you create a resume, how do you get references, practice and interview questions, connecting them with if they need a wardrobe or whatever it takes to get the person, not just in front of the employer, but it's like getting the, we all have butterflies, it's not eliminating the butterflies, it's how do we get them to fly in a bit of a tighter formation? I like that flying now. That's good. All hands on deck. That's right. There's a sea change happening and it's really good. I want to tell the viewing audience that if you don't have a pencil and a paper nearby, maybe have one if you're interested, the link to the employer toolkit will show at the end of the show today and it'll be up there for a long time so you can just write down what's essential and you know where to get it. There's no charge for it. There'll also be some contact information for our guests. And my email, if you need information about the show or if you didn't get to copy down the link, I'll be happy to send it to you. There is a sea change occurring and it's my honor to be with you today and have you on the show and recognize your contributions to something that's truly, truly important for Vermonters. And I just want to say that I want to disclose a little something about myself. I told you I was going to mention this because I think it's germane. I think it is appropriate. It was 34 years ago, almost 34 years ago. I had entered into my recovery from alcoholism and other drug use. It had lasted 24 years. I entered into recovery 35 years ago. About a year into recovery, I had taken a year off. I was going to lots of support groups. I was reading all the right books. I was hanging around with the right people. And I had achieved abstinence and was beginning my path to recovery. And there was an ad in the LaMoyle County newspaper for an alcohol counselor apprentice. And I was a master's level social worker at the time. I was what was called an impaired professional when I entered into my recovery. And I didn't feel good about myself. It was about a year into recovery. I was stable in recovery and I saw this ad. And I thought to myself, you know, you can do this. You can do this. I was very vulnerable, very fragile. And had some shame. I went up to LaMoyle County Mental Health where the executive director was Butch Alexander. And I sat down with him and I told him my story and that I was in recovery from addiction for almost a year. And then I was a social worker. And then I wanted a chance to be an alcohol counselor apprentice. I wanted to be an alcohol counselor. And he gave me that second chance. Butch Alexander and Bill Fallon. And Bill Fallon was the chief operations officer. It's 35 years later now, 34 years later. And I have had an entire career based on that second chance. And still to this day, when I say Butch Alexander and Bill Fallon, I have loyalty and incredible gratitude in my heart that they took that chance with me and they helped me along. And I just want to say that to employers out there. If you have someone come in or you locate someone that needs a second chance, give them the second chance because it can go a long way. And I want to thank you for promoting this idea so passionately. You're welcome. It's really exciting to hear that somebody lived exactly what we're talking about. It's providing somebody a chance. It doesn't cost a dime to provide somebody a chance. But what a difference it made in your life and your family's life, too. And in my case, many lives of, you know, of money is a helping profession. So it kind of beamed out. And all that wouldn't have happened if they had not had the, you know, the courage and the compassion to say, okay, we're going to give you a chance. Thanks for sharing that. That's a perfect example of how to pay it forward. Yeah. Perfect example. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. So I want to close the show today. And the way I'd like to close the show is for you both to have a moment, you know, to talk to the viewing audience with your message. So we'll begin with Ron and we'll go to Christine. I guess I would say this first statement is based on, I had an opportunity to talk to a class at St. Michael's College called the Social Problems class. And I started the class by asking everyone to raise their hand if they knew of somebody who had been touched by substance use disorder in their family. And about 50% of the hands went up. And then I said, how about your extended family, a neighbor, a friend? Out of the 29 students, all arms were raised. And it just reinforced to me that it's almost impossible to find a family somewhere who has not been impacted somehow. And it's incumbent and it's the right thing to do for us as a society and a community to wrap our arms around and support. So I guess my hope really is that if we've swayed some opinion or reinforced those who already believe this, but substance use disorder is not a character flaw. It is not a moral failing and it's not a choice. These are not individuals depicted on a movie or a sitcom 30 years ago. These are professionals. These are our family. These are our neighbors. These are our children, our grandparents, everyone that makes our community what a community is. And understanding that behind this is an individual who through no choice of their own has developed an addiction. And this is a disease that hijacks the mind, the body and the soul. And to suggest that somebody lives their lives ruled by substance use and chooses to do so is no more valid than suggesting one chooses any other fatal disease. So with understanding, compassion, and I underscore understanding and circle compassion, that maybe just then we will begin to understand that like any physical malady we need to step forward and support these individuals because once we do and once we reduce the stigma, then I have a feeling our society, whenever we're faced with some type of tragedy or problem, we do coalesce, we do come together and we do mobilize. And that until my last breath is exhaled, I will do my best to ensure that individuals understand that somebody with a substance use disorder is no better, no different, but we are all the same. Thank you, Ron. Thank you. Christine? It's going to be hard to follow that. That was really beautiful. Thanks, Christine. But to build on that, I was diagnosed with cancer six years ago. People brought me meals. People took care of my kids. People helped me take care of my house. Think about what that looks like when somebody gets that diagnosis, that tragic how do we get through the day type of diagnosis. What if, to your point, we treated substance use disorder, alcoholism, opioid use disorder, and on and on, what if we treated it that way? Back in January, I had a family member die from alcoholism and he was 55 years old. Sorry. Not in this state. But he died as a result of four years battling the disease, the alcohol, and really a culture that says he was a loser. He could never get it together. What would it have looked like for him if we had sent him meals and said, come on, let's go. Let's get out of bed. Let's do this. Let's get you the help that you need. Right? So again, getting back to the employment piece. Employment is a lifeline. I have no life if I don't have a job. I've always had a job. It's always what I've done. Right? How do I support my family? How do I support my community? How do I do any of that without a job? And so, so much of this, so much of getting people to be in recovery is about thinking about what are the areas that we support them in. And employment is just a huge one. Right? But remember, employment doesn't just impact one person. It impacts family members, children. As I head into the Department for Children and Families, I'm acutely aware of the fact that opioids is having a major impact on our children and families in this state. So if we can address this employment piece and create this culture of wellness that I think that employers can really offer, I think we're going to go, we're going to make huge inroads when we think about prevention, when we think about intervention, and we just think about exactly what you talk about, is how do we make that, how do you go from, just give me an opportunity to then 35 years of providing brilliant work in the field of substance use, but also, you know, I imagine you're one heck of a counselor as well. Because you bring that with you to your new life. And I think that's what this offers is this opportunity. It's also, you know, we have a 2.2% unemployment rate. We talk about this and this is a competitive edge that employers, employers that tie on to do this will have, I think, a nice competitive edge. Because then they're going to be figuring out how to work one with people that are already in their employment, but also how they can then create new opportunities for people that are coming, you know, in their doors. So well said. I want to underscore and circle. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome, man. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Christine. So the link to the employer toolkit will show now for a while. So I'm hoping that we've generated interest. And thank you to the viewing audience for joining us today.